IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-01-24
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01:32:44 <Lejving> anyone awake? need help with nml :(
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03:48:46 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone awake? i need help with metaquestions :(
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11:14:23 <Wolf01> You meant "hello shitty isp"?
11:14:43 <__ln__> dunno how shitty it is, never used
11:15:32 <Wolf01> Usually I'm connected at 4Mbps and the download speed matches 1-2Mbps because the lines are saturated
11:17:42 <Wolf01> This night they reset their stuff and after that I was able to take a speedtest result of 4.93Mbps
11:17:59 <__ln__> is your 4Mbps ADSL2 or VDSL or something?
11:19:43 <__ln__> what's the nominal upload speed?
11:20:30 <Wolf01> I think 500Kbps, usually I have 450
11:21:20 <__ln__> admittedly that's a bit low by today's standards
11:21:36 <__ln__> how much does it cost per month?
11:22:02 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: speedtests are often skewed because ISPs whose lines are saturated and do traffic shaping will prioritize them
11:22:46 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: like people tried downloading large files, and as soon as they opened an url with *speedtest* in the name, the download rate tripled
11:23:41 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: quite possible, and the highest download speed i've achieved in reality is around 400 Mbps. (steam, and some other place)
11:23:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: when they switched us from 16mbit ADSL to 50mbit vdsl, the price went down by 5€
11:24:29 <Wolf01> Steam downloads work really well, but I think they have some compression, it usually downloads at 480KB/s with peaks of 500KB/s
11:25:10 <Wolf01> The problem here is the ping... >150ms is not acceptable
11:25:13 <__ln__> Wolf01: what kinds of speeds and prices does telecomitalia offer in big cities?
11:26:02 <Wolf01> In big cities they usually have FTTH, but I don't know the prices, no FTTH here so I never looked at that
11:28:15 <Wolf01> You can have 20Mbps VDSL (which doesn't really work here) but for business, no offers for private
11:29:23 <Wolf01> Oh, nice, 7Mbps costs only 22€/M but only for new customers
11:29:37 <__ln__> are wireless 3G, 4G things popular over there, as the only internet connection at home?
11:30:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: usually, if you make enough noise, you can get the "new customer" bonuses as well
11:31:25 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: i don't know about italy, but in germany, these kind of wireless connections come with severe traffic limits
11:32:29 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: like before we had 16mbit via phone cable, they offered us 16mbit via LTE, with a 5GB/month traffic limit
11:32:34 <Wolf01> We have a WiMAX isp here, but I should call them to take a test here to be sure I can use them
11:33:18 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: that was at a time where i maxed out my land line with like 60GB per month
11:33:26 <Wolf01> And finally they have a flat offer, because it was limited until last year
11:34:38 <__ln__> over here, very sadly, 3G/4G seems to be the national strategy for providing internet access to people especially in less populated areas. some ISPs have data caps on those, some not.
11:34:43 <Wolf01> And the price is 24€/M without the 30€/M lease
11:35:02 <Wolf01> (because I'm paying 32+30€/M)
11:55:14 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: yeah, but you live in a densely populated and well-developed country.
11:57:38 <__ln__> finland is roughly the same size as germany, but only 1/16 of its population.
12:05:00 <Eddi|zuHause> have you learned nothing? don't let facts get in the way of a stuopid argument
12:07:59 <V453000> lol finland so dumb they can't even reproduce
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18:24:59 <supermop_> this internet is horrible
18:27:06 <Wolf01> Yours? Read the logs about mine...
18:27:38 <supermop_> i should just go work from home
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18:55:32 <Lejving> how's the best way to either use openttd+ graphics (as in I don't have to write much new code for tiles and shit, just copy it) or how can I just make the graphics be what ever the user is using?
18:55:57 <Lejving> like I just want to modify the power plant to also accept another cargo, but I have to change the tiles for that and that also changes the graphics
18:56:30 <Eddi|zuHause> you can have the tiles refer to base graphics, i think
18:56:54 <frosch123> you need to make sure that you "override" the tiles
18:57:00 <frosch123> and then just do not provide any graphics
18:57:07 <frosch123> i think that should fall back to default
18:57:20 <Lejving> yeah I didn't get get the override and substitute shiet
18:58:20 <frosch123> substitute copies original data to your new tile
18:58:32 <frosch123> override copies your new tile to original data
18:59:00 <frosch123> you always need "substitute"
18:59:06 <frosch123> "override" is optional and rate
18:59:22 <Lejving> yeah was about to say, when I removed substitute it was gone
19:00:02 <frosch123> hmm, you may not even need the override actually
19:00:17 <frosch123> i guess it depends on whether you also replace industry layouts
19:00:46 <Lejving> well see that's the problem I think
19:00:59 <Lejving> because I couldn't figure out how to get the cargo working without adding new layout?
19:01:32 <frosch123> i guess it's either "new layout" or "override tiles"
19:04:48 <Lejving> this is without tilelayout
19:05:03 <Lejving> the station won't accept new cargo :S
19:05:30 <Lejving> so I add tilelayout -> I have to provide graphics also?
19:05:46 <frosch123> "etwas kühl" <- i love spam that comes from a literal translation from english
19:06:39 <frosch123> Lejving: tiles will default to the graphics matching the "substitute"
19:08:55 <Lejving> then my tilelayout code is wrong
19:13:03 <frosch123> hmm, maybe there is a grf format limitation that prevents it from working ...
19:15:22 <frosch123> INDUSTRYTYPE_POWER_PLANT <- that is a industry type
19:15:26 <frosch123> not a industry tile type
19:15:42 <Lejving> even says so in the name
19:15:46 <Lejving> how can it be clearer :D
19:16:51 <frosch123> anyway, if you only want to change properties: definitely use the "override" solution without tilelayout
19:18:05 <Lejving> then we're back to the problem of the station not accepting cargo
19:18:21 <frosch123> well, use the correct ids :)
19:19:19 <Lejving> *makes industrytile for every tile* lol
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19:31:42 <Lejving> it seems to be working frosch123, ty (dunno if you saw before netsplit)
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19:32:47 <Lejving> different sizes and animation is a later problem lol
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19:52:53 <andythenorth> Scania have it too
19:53:16 <frosch123> scania is picture 4 at the bottom
19:53:40 <frosch123> ah, even bigger picture :)
19:54:43 <frosch123> well, electrified road within cities is nothing new
19:54:52 <frosch123> but highspeed road is weird
19:57:23 <andythenorth> maybe I should add ELHAUL
19:59:06 <andythenorth> it’s a total novelty though :)
20:01:05 <andythenorth> frosch123: are you still keeping SV scores?
20:01:46 <Lejving> tesla would've been happy in his pants if he saw those pics
20:05:17 <Lejving> now how come my toyland graphics are totally dun goofed outside of toyland :(
20:05:34 <supermop__> toyland uses a different pallete
20:06:38 <Lejving> hey openttd graphics guy
20:06:56 <frosch123> supermop__: only for water
20:07:05 <frosch123> and who uses animated water in industries?
20:07:20 <andythenorth> but can’t see it
20:07:35 <Lejving> foster should start foster me when I'm in feutal position crying in the shower
20:08:03 <Eddi|zuHause> don't the oil rigs use animated water?
20:08:08 <frosch123> Lejving: it's just the water :) don't believe everything on the internet
20:08:31 <supermop__> no believe me. 1.5 million people came to my birthday party
20:08:33 <andythenorth> palette animation is so 2004 anyway :P
20:09:18 <supermop__> andythenorth: Toyland Extreme for Firs?
20:09:26 <andythenorth> yes those are some words
20:09:32 <andythenorth> you have put them into an order
20:09:36 <andythenorth> but they don’t make sense to me
20:09:38 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> EAUL is weird <-- sounds like people making Arnold Schwarzenegger impressions
20:09:57 <andythenorth> new economy: guns, boots, motorcycles
20:10:38 <supermop__> oil->plastic->legos->+ lego supplies ->lego sets -> Andy's house
20:10:42 <Lejving> I have a .bat script that compiles and copies the new file to openttd
20:11:10 <andythenorth> supermop__: Andy’s house -> sold on facebook
20:11:20 <andythenorth> Lejving: it all starts there :P
20:11:21 <frosch123> yeah, .bat was amazing in 1990
20:11:27 <andythenorth> I used to have a copy-paste shell command
20:11:49 <andythenorth> so I played a game yesterday
20:11:55 <frosch123> then i learned that unix had better stuff 30 years before
20:11:58 <supermop__> beech forest -> wood -> paint -> Brio
20:12:25 <andythenorth> everything that needed to be better in my game….
20:12:31 <andythenorth> …was in newgrfs I have made :|
20:12:32 <supermop__> plastic+beech= thomas
20:13:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i had so much fun with bat files
20:13:17 <frosch123> andythenorth: sounds like the universe is always at fault
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20:13:19 * andythenorth should make a new pony list post
20:13:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i had a (humoristic/educational) book called "Batchman"
20:14:06 <Eddi|zuHause> which taught all kinds of weird tricks
20:14:25 <supermop__> does humoristic mean was not actually humorous, but attempted to be?
20:14:43 <frosch123> supermop__: it was probably a german book
20:15:00 <Lejving> which I was a little bit older so I got to experience the commodore area
20:15:43 <frosch123> andythenorth: the funny part of that list is that none of the "likely ones" happened
20:16:08 <andythenorth> “and so we learn the perils of predicting the future"
20:16:52 <andythenorth> “goals framework” was the one I’d have lost the most money on as a bet
20:16:57 <andythenorth> I thought we’d never get that
20:17:05 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: drück die taste und ich haste
20:17:58 * andythenorth invents some new ponies
20:18:05 <Lejving> what's up with the tracks
20:19:19 <Eddi|zuHause> the person who made that book also made calendars
20:19:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i think we had one for 1992 and one for 1994
20:20:48 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i don't know what changed, but in the past month i got as much spam as in the past 5 years combined
20:21:39 <Lejving> you made enemies with a spammer
20:22:10 <frosch123> did it became more entertaining at least?
20:28:46 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I have a nuclear solution to that
20:29:01 <andythenorth> don’t read email
20:30:06 <andythenorth> oh I missed ‘consist management’ off the list
20:31:19 <frosch123> andythenorth: s/SLD/SDL/ and you miss "station showing cargo amount according to 'throughput' instead of 'waiting'"
20:31:27 <frosch123> or is the latter only an eddi thing?
20:31:44 <andythenorth> ask Eddi|zuHause :)
20:31:55 <andythenorth> I want to know when I’ve failed to provide enough vehicles
20:32:04 <andythenorth> there is some irony in drawing all these cargos for CHIPS
20:32:11 <andythenorth> and then aiming to never see them in a game :P
20:32:19 <frosch123> anyway, i just thought yesterday that we need sdl2, harfbuzz and os cursors
20:32:21 <andythenorth> cargo waiting = failure, andon, alert
20:32:39 <Eddi|zuHause> the "planned cargo" is something like throughput
20:32:44 <andythenorth> who’s the simutrans guy? Prissi?
20:33:25 <andythenorth> seems that SDL2 would be worse for everyone except me and snail
20:33:53 <frosch123> well, i would hope that using sdl2 would not require removing sdl1
20:34:02 <supermop__> throughput only seems valuable for the bikes parked outside of the station house?
20:34:10 <frosch123> if not at runtime then at least at compiletime
20:34:38 <frosch123> also 2013-2017 can be a long time
20:34:45 <andythenorth> these are things above my pay grade :)
20:35:02 <andythenorth> although at the current £sterling exchange rate, everything is above my pay grade :P
20:35:36 <supermop__> 7 years since original pony post huh
20:36:35 <supermop__> in 7 years i have released 1 buggy newgrf
20:38:04 <Eddi|zuHause> <supermop__> throughput only seems valuable for the bikes parked outside of the station house? <-- the main problem is that cargo stations where you always have "full load" will always look empty
20:38:25 <Eddi|zuHause> so you never see all the piles and stuff
20:38:55 <frosch123> gah, alone with eddi
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20:40:43 <supermop__> Eddi|zuHause: it is a similar problem for the bikes though - the best served stations will have the fewest bikes locked up outside
20:41:26 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: is your goal eye candy, or andon?
20:41:32 <supermop__> i don't mind not seeing piles when none is waiting, but it would be cool to see more equipment at busy stations
20:42:13 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop__: yes, things should look less deserted
20:42:22 <supermop__> so a station could be empty tiles, and if a lot of coal passes through , you see more trucks, conveyors, spilled coal on the ground
20:42:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what else other than eye candy are station graphics?
20:42:40 <supermop__> even if not a huge pile you see evidence of coal handling
20:42:42 <andythenorth> visual indicator of failure
20:42:53 <andythenorth> cargo waiting = I screwed up
20:43:06 <supermop__> bikes outside = success
20:43:26 <Eddi|zuHause> bikes, parking lots, whatever
20:43:47 <supermop__> Eddi|zuHause: load speed malus for platform and building types?
20:43:54 <andythenorth> this can be done without a spec extension?
20:44:01 <supermop__> slow to load coal from metro platforms
20:44:15 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop__: totally different category of issue
20:44:27 <supermop__> station rating decrease to load passengers from a tipple
20:44:36 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop__: the current station specs don't allow for changing any actual behaviour
20:44:36 <supermop__> Eddi|zuHause: yes but amusing
20:44:47 <supermop__> for some definitions of amusing
20:45:55 <frosch123> [20:43] <andythenorth> this can be done without a spec extension? <- partly, you know some history, but not the amounts
20:46:05 <andythenorth> you know the station rating?
20:46:13 <andythenorth> and whether anything is waiting?
20:46:17 <frosch123> you can check for cargo being accepted this months or last month
20:46:26 <andythenorth> high rating, low waiting = high throughput (as a proxy)
20:46:43 * andythenorth is making this up as he goes along
20:47:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: to me it sounds like the intro of an apocalyptic horror movie
20:47:18 <frosch123> well, depens on whether you want to display incoming or outgoing cargo
20:47:39 <supermop__> what if player is using FIRS 1 with 100% rating setting
20:48:22 <frosch123> maybe stations should only use "time since last pick-up"
20:48:40 <frosch123> and show various grades of old/rusty/broken
20:49:12 <supermop__> frosch123: that would be nice
20:49:32 <frosch123> it's available, make a grf :)
20:49:33 * andythenorth wonders how hard nml stations would be
20:49:45 <frosch123> andythenorth: there is a devzone task with the spec :)
20:49:54 <andythenorth> the nfo station spec is spectacularly odd
20:50:01 <andythenorth> it’s just like nothing else in newgrf
20:50:07 <andythenorth> ‘everything you know is wrong’ :P
20:50:31 <frosch123> iirc we made the nml spec so that it simulates the industry behaviour somewhat
20:50:41 <frosch123> to make it less insane
20:51:35 <andythenorth> I’ll amend the pony list
20:53:17 <andythenorth> also from my test game
20:53:29 <andythenorth> +/- 25% capacity refits on ships works
20:53:35 <andythenorth> seems best solution to matching ship size to route
20:54:03 <andythenorth> it’s a shame that it cannot be handled in station refit orders, even theoretically, but eh
20:55:41 <andythenorth> eh, it would need someone to do it :P
20:55:55 <andythenorth> ‘in 2017 I will mostly be making ships'
20:59:05 <Lejving> now why the fuck is tortoise crying about authorization
20:59:29 <supermop__> in 7102 Andy will still mostly be making ships
21:00:53 <Alberth> Lejving: trying to push to the devzone repo?
21:01:15 <Alberth> do you have access rights?
21:01:35 <frosch123> i installed the public key
21:01:41 <frosch123> his task to install the private one :)
21:01:50 <Lejving> what kind of service is this?
21:02:05 <Alberth> hg can't find the private key thus :)
21:02:05 <Lejving> I'm a paying customer!
21:02:29 <Lejving> last time I used a repo was in like 2008
21:02:36 <Alberth> private key must be installed at your system :)
21:10:13 <andythenorth> supermop: by 7102 I’ll only be making automation of ships
21:10:21 <andythenorth> by then, I might have automated the automation even
21:11:23 <frosch123> in 7102 eddi will be mostly talking about state machines
21:11:39 <supermop__> maybe you will have made an ai that plays the game and gets irked by something, then complains to the automaton that makes the automation that makes the newgrfs
21:13:33 <frosch123> what if he already did that?
21:13:43 <frosch123> and the ai also uses irc?
21:15:53 <supermop__> i assume he has a robot built of lego, that then builds things out of lego
21:17:26 <andythenorth> your assumption is a bit off-base :P
21:17:35 <andythenorth> I have a 5 year old that builds things out of lego
21:17:42 <andythenorth> which is quite different
21:17:55 <andythenorth> I have a 6 year old that makes ottd feature requests also
21:18:06 <supermop__> can you get the 5yo to automate ships?
21:18:19 <Eddi|zuHause> are you sure that neither of those are AI?
21:18:58 <andythenorth> are we all cyborgs? etc
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21:21:06 <frosch123> andythenorth: i am not sure whether stuff that was already false in the past is now outdated
21:21:42 <andythenorth> that is a fair point
21:21:54 <andythenorth> “The Sub-tropical climate is not as popular as the temperate climate as the choice of trains in Sub-tropical is the same as it was in Sub-arctic."
21:22:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure whoever wrote that had sophisticated evidence to make that claim
21:22:45 <Eddi|zuHause> he just did not cite his primary sources correctly
21:23:48 <michi_cc> It's called alternative facts now.
21:24:33 <supermop__> 1.5 million trains are available in sub-tropic
21:25:19 <frosch123> most text was written by boris
21:30:46 <andythenorth> so game is pretty good
21:31:41 <andythenorth> if we had more developers, we could do some satisfying version 2.0
21:31:46 <andythenorth> deleting many many features
21:31:54 <Lejving> why is no files showing up on my project page now <.< it gave me no errors
21:32:01 <andythenorth> …but if we had more developers we’d never agree on what to delete :)
21:32:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Lejving: did you add any?
21:32:41 <Eddi|zuHause> did you commit and push them?
21:33:11 <andythenorth> Lejving: what’s the url to the project page?
21:33:32 <andythenorth> yeah repo is empty
21:34:12 <andythenorth> what does ‘hg st’ tell you?
21:35:17 <andythenorth> means I have no idea
21:35:40 <Lejving> all files are green, I just commited, I just pushed, I just syncrhonized, I just cried
21:36:19 <Lejving> can't remember it was this much of a problem last time I was gonna use a repo, that was svn though
21:36:34 <Lejving> and almost 10 years ago, I must be getting old or something
21:37:03 <Eddi|zuHause> did you push to the right location?
21:37:18 <Eddi|zuHause> did you push the right branch?
21:41:16 <frosch123> the reposiory is empty on the server
21:41:23 <frosch123> but it has a timestamp from 8 minutes ago
21:41:59 <Lejving> my perma headache I've had last week isn't getting better :D
21:42:00 <andythenorth> using tortoise or something?
21:42:16 * andythenorth at risk of teaching grandma to suck eggs...
21:42:21 <andythenorth> …hg is different to svn
21:42:29 <andythenorth> have to add new files, then commit, then push
21:43:10 <andythenorth> it’s appears to be common to forget the ‘add’ part
21:43:18 * andythenorth does it a lot at least
21:43:39 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i did ask in exactly that order
21:49:48 <frosch123> now the repo seems to grow in size
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21:51:28 <frosch123> Lejving: random guess. you added the compiled .grf file, and devzone rejects the push because of that
21:51:55 <andythenorth> no compiled files in repo :)
21:52:09 <andythenorth> you need .hgignore file
21:52:33 <andythenorth> but that’s one of mine
21:52:44 <andythenorth> way too much python / OS X stuff there for you though
21:52:56 <frosch123> latest xkcd seems to fit :)
21:53:25 <frosch123> andythenorth: how many phone numbers do you have?
21:53:35 <frosch123> more or less than email addresses?
21:53:54 <andythenorth> it is a very true xkcd
21:54:11 <andythenorth> next-of-kin of my employees often get work texts from me
21:54:18 <andythenorth> as do people they have sold their phone to
21:54:42 <andythenorth> when my wife calls, my phone thinks I’m calling myself
21:54:45 <frosch123> you sell phones together with their number?
21:55:03 <andythenorth> seems that some people do
21:55:26 <andythenorth> that xkcd doesn’t even account for apple imessage
21:55:30 <andythenorth> which is spooky magic
21:59:52 <Lejving> holy fuck I got files
22:01:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: call it the Munroe Barge?
22:02:43 <frosch123> this container ship can load a lot
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22:02:56 <frosch123> but the loading bay becomes unuseable after some time
22:03:53 <Eddi|zuHause> back in the '90s we had a large drawing in our computer science room, involving a "write only memory"
22:04:29 <frosch123> it's called "bad hand writing"
22:05:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it was depicted as a crocodile eating the packages
22:05:48 <supermop_> hopefully internet now fixed
22:06:20 <Eddi|zuHause> you fixed the WHOLE internet?
22:06:25 <frosch123> supermop_: it will take some iterations until the new firewalls are setup
22:06:27 <Lejving> nice no wonder why it wasn't working
22:06:40 <Lejving> the internet wasn't working
22:07:34 <supermop_> from my point of view the internet is: my computer - switch in the server closet - outside world
22:08:01 <supermop_> the nuances of that last item are academic as far as i am concerned
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continue to next day ⏵
