IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-01-13
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03:26:49 <supermop> openttd with a stylus not as fun as id hoped
03:28:34 <glx> cursor and stylus aren't good friends
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13:32:22 <MonkeyDrone> o/ aloha people. is there anyway to get in touch with Jinassi besides IRC?
13:45:27 <MonkeyDrone> IRL, he better be damn hot for that to happen
13:45:39 <MonkeyDrone> i'll shoot him a pm on reddit if it's possiburu
13:49:32 <peter1138> Is this directory services?
13:53:40 <MonkeyDrone> all your dreams come true here
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14:26:57 <roidal> seems like iam not getting the point of it, especially because the exact meaning of "Frame counter" and "frame counter max"
14:36:34 <Eddi|zuHause> the way i see it, it's a measure how far the server may be ahead of all the clients, to make sure all clients have time to process the commands that the server sends out
14:36:59 <Eddi|zuHause> or the other way around
14:37:27 <Eddi|zuHause> when a client processes a click from a player, it may not know what frame the server will assign this click to
14:38:56 <roidal> its not clear to me why
14:39:15 <roidal> ok, which one of both has the higher value? "counter" or "counter max"?
14:39:32 <roidal> from the description is think its counter?
14:40:26 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i think it's the counter. the counter says at which frame the server currently is, and the frame counter max the frame that the server thinks it's safe for clients to advance to because all data is present
14:44:08 <roidal> and the "Frame of execution" in the Command-packet say that this command should be executed when "frame counter max" >= "frame of execution"
14:44:15 <Eddi|zuHause> so i think what it's meant to do (for the client) is: collect DoCommands, advance to max frame, collect DoCommands, advance to next max frame, etc.
14:44:48 <Eddi|zuHause> no, the Command packet must be executed on the exact tick
14:45:13 <roidal> thats exactly why iam wondering about "max"
14:45:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's to allow reducing the net_frame_freq, so you process multiple ticks at the same time
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14:46:36 <roidal> no, the execution of the command have to be at the same frame/tick as set in the "frame of execution", but the client is allowed to handle all commands up to "frame counter max"?
14:47:12 <Eddi|zuHause> but the client will still process them tick-by-tick, just multiple ticks in a row
14:48:50 <roidal> i don't see a tick-number within the command-packet?
14:49:11 <Eddi|zuHause> no, tick is the internal clock of the client, the frame may wobble a bit due to network delays
14:49:25 <Eddi|zuHause> so the client may spend some ticks doing nothing
14:49:39 <Eddi|zuHause> and then speeding up a bit to catch up
14:49:54 <Eddi|zuHause> on average, they should balance out
14:50:07 <roidal> so, frame-numbers match tick-numbers, but there may less frames than ticks?
14:51:00 <Eddi|zuHause> something like that
14:51:42 <roidal> nice, political, answer
14:52:12 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i'm not the resident network protocol expert...
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15:46:48 <Alberth> and the weekend barely started :)
15:52:57 <supermop_> ok i have every sprite except for bridge overlays
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15:55:50 <supermop_> i guess i can just copy those from ogfx
15:56:10 <supermop_> but really dont feel like adding another row to my png
15:56:56 <Alberth> take an entire new png instead!
15:57:10 <supermop_> V453000: how does layering sprites work, is it only useful for cargo?
15:59:09 <supermop_> could you make a locomotive grf that only contains a cab sprite, and 1-3 'chunks' of locomotive side, then just combine those in various ways to make several locomotives?
15:59:44 <Alberth> andy does such things at source level :)
16:00:39 <supermop_> like a steam train has the front thing that has the headlamp and chimney, thats usually black, then a short cc cylinder for a segment of boiler
16:00:55 <supermop_> then you just repeat that boiler sprite as much as you need
16:01:25 <andythenorth> I did code totally procedural trucks a long time ago
16:01:29 <supermop_> thought experiment on 2CC 32bpp train that isn't like 1GB
16:01:35 <andythenorth> they lack character, it’s ultimately easier just to draw them
16:02:06 <andythenorth> I am using standard hulls for Sam, and comping the holds / tanks / whatever over that
16:02:30 <supermop_> what about each game each locomotive randomly gets either a US or UK style cab
16:02:37 <andythenorth> yes that could be done
16:02:49 <andythenorth> I do it in python, because I can then open the spritesheet and immediately see all the states, no need to run a test game
16:03:06 <andythenorth> I use the vehicle sprite layers for ship wakes
16:03:15 <andythenorth> because they don’t need to be in the spritesheet
16:03:20 <andythenorth> so I use both methods in one ship
16:04:17 <Lejving> why can't you have the ship hull in one .png (it stays the same) then just swap out the above picture with cargo.png?
16:05:30 <Alberth> different width, height, and colours of each ship
16:05:47 <Alberth> ie to look good, you must do each one separately
16:06:51 <Alberth> Wolf01: looks difficult :)
16:08:02 <Alberth> Lejving: to make it look good, you start with drawing the cargo in the ship sprite
16:08:15 <Alberth> so to make them separate is more work
16:08:33 <Alberth> as you have to split them afterwards
16:09:57 <Alberth> feel free to prove me wrong though :)
16:17:17 <Lejving> but this probably explains how I think more Alberth
16:18:12 <Lejving> I'm just a hobby coder though so probably don't understnad this deep programing :)
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16:21:14 <Lejving> then you're pretty much doing waht I thought
16:21:39 <andythenorth> they hide / show for stopped / moving ships
16:22:30 <andythenorth> there’s some extra stuff with masks that I won’t get into :P
16:23:12 <Alberth> Lejving: may I recommend a bit of Python, and PIL ?
16:23:37 <andythenorth> (except that’s currently broken, work in progress)
16:23:45 <Lejving> never used PIL but I have some python experience
16:24:48 <Alberth> trivial to paint pixels on an image
16:26:06 <Alberth> New PIL is named Pillow
16:34:13 <supermop_> well i cut open my thumb shattering floor tile samples in our stairwell
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16:49:37 <andythenorth> supermop_: don’t bleed out
16:49:54 <supermop_> thanks for the advice
16:55:25 <supermop_> do we still have to provide the 'back' truss on bridges as part of the road?
16:56:11 <Wolf01> Is nrt hype already gone?
16:56:31 <supermop_> Wolf01: i havent even coded my nrt grf yet
16:57:45 <Wolf01> 1-3 people talking about it or working on it is not hype
16:57:56 <Wolf01> There's more hype about transmitters
17:16:18 <andythenorth> Wolf01: nrt IS NOT UNDERGROUND ROADS
17:16:23 <andythenorth> MUST CAN HAZ UNDERGROUDN
17:16:33 <andythenorth> MORE EXCITING IF YOU CANT SEE IT!!!
17:17:30 <Wolf01> I would go for eddi's implementation of multi level roads/rails, underground is not my priority
17:18:41 <supermop_> make it like locomotion, where you accidentally blow up invisible town buildings whenever you try to modify tracks or roads underground
17:20:15 <andythenorth> nrt hype is limited by needing nml fork
17:20:34 <supermop_> i like the assertion that magic buldozer is an unacceptable cheat, but patching the game to bypass intentional limitations is not
17:21:14 <Wolf01> Only because "build while in pause" is not a cheat anymore
17:21:53 <andythenorth> it’s to do with how you feel
17:22:01 <andythenorth> configuring a setting doesn’t make you feel bad
17:22:03 <supermop_> being able to play the game without stupid AIs ruining the map is a cheat
17:22:07 <andythenorth> ‘cheating’ makes you feel bad
17:22:13 <Wolf01> TBH, I would like to have different kinds of unmovables placed on map generation
17:22:17 <andythenorth> I give zero fucks, whilst totally understanding the user
17:22:29 <andythenorth> it’s a totally non-interesting problem to consider
17:22:43 <supermop_> patch to change 'cheat menu' to 'philosophical gameplay settings'
17:23:08 <andythenorth> should title that as “fucks I don’t give menu”
17:23:32 <andythenorth> Money: no fucks given, give me more
17:23:39 <andythenorth> Date: don’t give a fuck, use this one
17:24:30 <supermop_> related sentiment i've seen, no names given, 'no inflation is cheating' but 'playing with many non balanced newgrfs at the same time is not'
17:25:33 <andythenorth> people gonna people :)
17:25:45 <andythenorth> supermop_: is your nrt grf done yet? o_O
17:26:02 <supermop_> that egrvts flatbed that carries 72 head of livestock from your dairy farm whilst your ukrs wagon only hold 6...
17:26:16 <supermop_> andythenorth: sprites are
17:41:44 <supermop_> have a strong disinclination to code it
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17:59:58 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: ukrs is a bit low on capacities in general (supposed to make the game "harder", i guess), and livestock is a bit weird anyway...
18:00:25 <Eddi|zuHause> because it's meant to simulate that livestock is not transported by rail anmore in modern times
18:00:43 <supermop_> UKRS stock seems to be cattle, and egrvts seems to be chickens, so the disparity is quite stark
18:01:49 <Eddi|zuHause> still, you're mixing two sets that serve totally different balancing approaches
18:02:28 <supermop_> but yeah, what i meant though is that playing with sets with wildly different ideas about capacity seems just as much of a cheat as say, disabling inflation
18:02:42 <andythenorth> is sets with a common schema
18:02:48 <andythenorth> who’d do that though? o_O
18:04:14 <supermop_> and that it strikes me as tone deaf to complain that playing with feature X is a cheat, while then also using feature Y to totally unbalance the game
18:04:40 <supermop_> andythenorth: want to code my roads
18:05:20 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: are you talking about baldy's boss? he's a bit... special...
18:05:39 <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: tangentially, but also transmitted topic
18:06:01 <Eddi|zuHause> he's part of that thread, i think
18:06:36 <Eddi|zuHause> the transmitter thread is... special... as well... everybody seems to talk about something completely different
18:07:39 <supermop_> to me it seems if you are going to worry about 'cheating' patching the game to alter gameplay is at least as much of a cheat as turning on bulldozer sparingly
18:08:01 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but psychologically, it's different.
18:08:28 <supermop_> if anything, patching the game is worse, as now its no longer even the same game
18:09:17 <Eddi|zuHause> like, in a crime series, the people who raid shops and take everything they can carry are criminals, but in a zombie series, the people who raid shops and take everything they can carry are the heroes.
18:09:18 <supermop_> why hasn't anyone told him to load map in SE to remove transmitter? i do that occasionally to fix rivers
18:10:55 <supermop_> local record shop closed and all the labels that have releases out today i want to buy are in UK so i'd have to pay like 15 quid royal mail to buy direct
18:11:25 <supermop_> i should load NYC into scenario editor to put a record shop back into my neighborhood
18:12:33 <Eddi|zuHause> what do you use physical records for anyway?
18:13:05 <Eddi|zuHause> [by "physical records" i include CDs, and everything]
18:14:59 <Alberth> hard-disks, network cables, ..
18:18:41 <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: looking at on the shelf
18:19:04 <supermop_> being inside the record shop is probably the best part of the experience
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18:21:14 <supermop_> lossless encoding is a cheat
18:21:37 <supermop_> i need a switch added to turn all of my MP3s into vinyl records
18:24:37 <supermop_> andythenorth: should i even bother with a harbor tramway? or let use build regular tram types over bits of the chips road to save a few slots?
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18:36:07 <andythenorth> supermop_: start without it
18:36:12 <andythenorth> always start nearly-spartan
18:36:28 <andythenorth> have too many ideas, reduce most of them, leave it slightly bloated
18:36:34 <andythenorth> then add more when the core is strong
18:36:42 * andythenorth does have methods, whatever it looks like from the outside :P
18:37:48 <supermop_> well there are sprite sheets for tram and tram overlays, but i'd be fine doing without for now
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19:13:50 <roidal> is UDP required for a multiplayer game?
19:14:51 <SpComb> afaik only LAN discovery
19:15:39 <frosch123> also for non-lan discovery
19:15:48 <frosch123> if you know the url of your server, you do not need udp though
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19:24:09 <supermop_> frosch123: do you have a chunk of sample nrt nml? i had some last week but lost it
19:24:26 <supermop_> looks like im going to need to suck it up and try to code this thing
19:25:07 <supermop_> i can't even remember how i used to format my grf ids. DE something i think
19:27:28 <frosch123> there is an example in the nml fork
19:27:33 <frosch123> which you also need to compile
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19:28:23 <supermop_> might need to do this later this weekend then
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19:40:03 * andythenorth should get on and write a developer job ad
19:40:49 <andythenorth> what should it say?
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19:44:35 <frosch123> "eu imigrants welcome"?
19:45:11 <andythenorth> frosch123: no idea, but ‘brexit means brexit'
19:45:15 <andythenorth> whatever that means
19:45:39 <frosch123> maybe the mac scared people away
19:47:39 <andythenorth> some of you have jobs?
19:51:49 * andythenorth wonders how people get jobs
19:51:56 <andythenorth> I had a job a few times, in supermarkets
19:53:53 <__ln__> even apple doesn't have jobs anymore, as he passed away.
19:55:01 <andythenorth> it does have a jobs page
19:55:11 <andythenorth> it’s quite…corporate :P
19:58:05 <frosch123> we get almost everyone via private agents
19:58:12 <frosch123> or however that translates
20:04:51 <supermop_> last 2-4 jobs ive got nearly by accident
20:05:03 <andythenorth> we say “please don’t call us again"
20:05:20 <andythenorth> all our current developers are by accident or FOAF
20:05:51 <supermop_> wife however busting her ass researching then studying for a select few companies she wanted to work at last round
20:06:19 <supermop_> andythenorth: are you going to make the applicants do homework?
20:06:45 <andythenorth> we do that in the interview
20:07:00 <supermop_> facebook flew her to bay area just to do 8 hours of whiteboard math and coding
20:07:08 <supermop_> for a job in the nyc office
20:08:29 <supermop_> also: cuba has some cool rusty old soviet jetliners sitting on tarmac
20:09:09 <supermop_> saw a cubana liveried one of these:
20:10:25 <andythenorth> what do people want from a job?
20:10:36 <supermop_> and excuse to leave house
20:11:38 <andythenorth> “Will pay you to leave house, tweet me to apply"
20:12:30 <frosch123> you want those who want an interesting job
20:13:19 <frosch123> those who want to develop stuff, not those who specify stuff for external contractors
20:13:22 <andythenorth> what if it’s not interesting :D
20:14:11 <frosch123> creating stuff should be more interesting than maintaining stuff
20:15:32 <andythenorth> what about creating tools to maintain stuff? o_O
20:16:36 <frosch123> no idea, python is already a thing
20:16:44 <supermop_> "seeking would be subjects of conceivable xkcd strips"
20:18:21 <frosch123> oh wait, andy would call it "NotPHP"
20:18:37 <frosch123> hmm, though... tb started all the "no" stuff
20:21:44 <frosch123> maybe just use a cat picture
20:22:17 <frosch123> work here, to keep this kitten fed
20:23:32 <andythenorth> ‘tell me where cat is, have job’
20:29:14 <frosch123> i think you work in a different business than i do :)
20:30:59 <andythenorth> unless you are in my office in disguise, I think that’s a safe bet :)
20:35:40 <andythenorth> nobody knows where cat is
20:41:35 <supermop_> hire a developer to make ships?
20:42:21 <andythenorth> ships don’t have scaling or data integrity issues
20:42:32 <andythenorth> I can make them :)
20:44:06 <supermop_> sounds like a challenge
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20:55:04 <supermop_> i feel more or less done drawing chips roads
20:55:40 <supermop_> what would be another good road grf? dirt roads?
20:58:45 <andythenorth> I am still slightly bothered by not being able to run supplies trucks on HAUL
20:59:06 <andythenorth> haven’t thought of a pleasing workaround yet :)
21:00:19 <supermop_> pick-ups and high flotation tires ok, everything else must use road
21:00:36 <andythenorth> it’s a spec issue :P
21:00:46 <andythenorth> maybe a supplies truck for HAUL
21:01:39 <andythenorth> ach, rotten cucumber is unpleasant
21:04:26 <frosch123> supermop_: are you interested in drawing alley trees? then i could add the roadside support
21:05:02 <supermop_> frosch123: new trees all together, or taking trees from ogfx, or something else?
21:05:23 <supermop_> andythenorth: roll some coal
21:05:30 <frosch123> i think the regular trees would be too big
21:05:43 <frosch123> not sure whether a variant of the city-center road-trees would work
21:05:44 <supermop_> which seems to be what the haul trucks do now
21:06:14 <supermop_> frosch123: modifying or scaling existing trees is easy enough
21:07:21 <supermop_> we usually say 'allee' with an accent for those trees here because in american english and alley is the narrow dirty lane behind and between buildings where you set out the trash
21:07:30 <supermop_> not much room for trees in there
21:07:50 <supermop_> andythenorth: that is a big supply
21:08:32 <supermop_> those look like they are for driving on dirt rather than some reinforced road though
21:09:37 <supermop_> do australians call miners 'mine-ys'?
21:11:03 <supermop_> tradesman -> tradie, mason -> brickie, carpenter -> chippy, electrician -> sparky
21:11:11 <supermop_> coal miner -> coallie?
21:11:33 <andythenorth> most of those are working-class UK English
21:11:55 <supermop_> that might just be a victoria think, maybe they dont use those words in queensland etc
21:12:04 <andythenorth> and then miner was ‘unemployed'
21:12:14 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> “Will pay you to leave house, tweet me to apply" <- do you accept commuters too?
21:12:29 <andythenorth> Wolf01: wondering today if I could commute
21:12:32 <supermop_> that was the UK euphemism i heard a lot of living in north yorks in the 90s
21:12:34 <andythenorth> from canary islands
21:12:44 <andythenorth> 20 degrees in canaries
21:13:04 <supermop_> 63 F in new york yesterday
21:13:38 <supermop_> 19 F when i landed monday night
21:14:10 <supermop_> they have that in uk?
21:14:55 <supermop_> mining/excavation workers in mines and tunnels, bridge foundations underwater etc
21:15:06 <supermop_> thats for the 2nd avenue subway thread
21:15:42 <supermop_> Big TBM is bleeding our govt dry apparently
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21:40:45 <glx> use a real unit when you're talking about temperature :)
21:43:24 <Wolf01> We could even say that about distance or even dates :P
21:50:47 <Wolf01> The problem is that °R and °F are weird as fuck, it's like dividing a whole in 27 parts (not that 12/24 or 360 is better)
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22:04:27 <__ln__> Wolf01: but the advantage is that you have a nice round figure for a horse's body temperature.
22:05:30 <Eddi|zuHause> 360 is a nice round number.
22:05:45 <Eddi|zuHause> if you're using the babylonian base-60-system
22:06:50 <glx> works very well in geometry
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22:08:49 <frosch123> Wolf01: °F is the attempt to draw a unique line through a single dot
22:09:49 <glx> °F has 2 reference points
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22:11:17 <frosch123> glx: not really, 100°F has a reasonable definition. 0°F is the arbritary temperature that some guy 200 years ago could produce with his arbitrary chemistry skills
22:11:39 <__ln__> wasn't it the coldest temperature in his home town during some winter?
22:11:39 <frosch123> so, °F only has one reference point, the other is random
22:11:59 <glx> now 32°F and 212°F are well defined
22:12:29 <__ln__> frosch123: you probably mean 'arbitrary', not 'random'
22:13:03 <glx> the random decision is 12 divisions with 8 subdivisons
22:13:18 <Eddi|zuHause2> clearly we should make a unified standard that encompasses all temperature systems.
22:13:46 <Lejving> how is the horse temprature ratio to JRHNBR?
22:14:11 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause2: what are the reference points for °Eddi ?
22:14:37 <andythenorth> supermop_: are you seeking coders via dm? o_O :)
22:14:46 <frosch123> the temperature of your blood when reading the suggestion forum?
22:17:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> frosch123: something like all odd numbers are °F and all even numbers are °C
22:17:28 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
22:17:52 <frosch123> only whole numbers?
22:18:30 <glx> 4th decimal to be simpler :)
22:18:37 <Eddi|zuHause> well, fractional numbers will be K, if they're in base 10, and °R in any other base
22:19:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't even know what °R is
22:19:39 <glx> something like K but in °F :)
22:22:34 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the scale that you get by taking the slope from °F and the fix point from K
22:23:27 <Eddi|zuHause> well, yes, that's the same way how you get K from °C
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