IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-01-09
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16:53:12 <Wolf01> I'm a bit poor on ideas this period... I would like to fix my terraforming tools but I don't have clue on how to do it :(
16:54:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i can help you there
16:55:59 <Wolf01> The problem is that the brush continuously raises the terrain, and does it really fast
16:56:23 <Wolf01> If I slow it down, it misses spots when dragging
16:57:04 <Alberth> raise one level each time you visit a tile?
16:57:23 <Alberth> or once every x seconds
17:03:09 <Alberth> conceptually, as soon as you cover a new tile with the brush, you raise the tile, and start a counter from x to 0. If it hits 0, raise again, and reset the counter to x. If the tile is no longer covered, remove the counter of it
17:04:32 <Wolf01> I'll end up having counters for 64 tiles at time
17:04:47 <Alberth> hmm, maybe not remove, but keep it running until timeout
17:05:02 <Alberth> less messy when you move back and forth
17:05:44 <Alberth> is 64 counters a problem?
17:06:17 <Wolf01> The problem is how to handle an array of counters which change continuously
17:07:47 <Alberth> 2D round-robin buffer?
17:09:06 <Alberth> for 64 tiles, a 6x6 area, where you point into it for one of the corners of the tool, which is at a known location in the map
17:10:00 <Alberth> all other tiles are relative to that position, but wrapping around in positive direction, instead of a negative offset
17:10:24 <Alberth> need a picture for that?
17:17:00 <Alberth> SO discussion looks different from my 2D idea
17:24:35 <Wolf01> Mmmh, an array of tile areas for a paintbrush pass, with the same exact area appearing only once, then when releasing the button it loops throught the array and raises the tiles
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17:39:10 <Wolf01> Bah, I just limited the terraformation on cursor movement, which is better than nothing, but I think is even better if I'll go read a book instead
17:40:30 <Alberth> if the book is any good, sure :)
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17:41:13 <Lejving> I don't know if anyone here who did it but I just want to say who ever made the mods/load/menu map things for this game you're a god damn hero
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17:41:36 <Lejving> Being able to load like 6 year old maps and just get right version number for a 10 year old mod without problem is a major masterpiece
17:42:12 <Alberth> md5sum goes a long way :)
17:42:24 <Lejving> was it you who did it Alberth?
17:43:12 <Alberth> nah, done way before me arrived
17:43:22 <Lejving> ah ok but it's really fucking nice
17:44:15 <Lejving> I've been looking through some old openttdcoop games and it just hit me how amazing it is I can just load any old save and it works every time
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19:13:29 <moonpunter> Argh can't seem to create an account for the wiki
19:13:38 <moonpunter> Not receiving any e-mails
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20:25:40 <andythenorth> an entire new class of routes in NotRoadTypes
20:25:54 <andythenorth> “Transmitters must be removable!!!!!"
20:26:59 <frosch123> well, at least someone might have got to "default objects should be overrideable by newgrf"
20:31:24 <moonpunter> glx: i've tried that numerous times before coming here
20:32:10 <moonpunter> gets to the screen where it says check your e-mail, e-mail never arrives
20:32:38 <andythenorth> “there are at least three groups of interest wrt. game features: 1. micromanagement like conditonal orders, refitting and loading. 2. automated economy like cargodist. 3. model railway sandbox” <- I think there is something else
20:33:13 <frosch123> reading ancient logs :p
20:39:19 <andythenorth> 5. mostly the original game, only more, and with GUI annoyances reduced
20:39:27 <andythenorth> 6. a platform for people to make addons
20:39:47 <andythenorth> yeah, as goals, the wording of those is a bit crap
20:40:14 <frosch123> is 6 an interest group, or just the comprimise of the rest?
20:40:56 <andythenorth> I think it’s a specific interest
20:41:12 <andythenorth> there is a meta-game and community enabled by newgrf, AI, GS and scenarios
20:41:37 <andythenorth> it’s a creative platform, not similar, but in same direction as minecraft, etc
20:41:52 <andythenorth> people who are just having fun creating things
20:42:05 <andythenorth> it’s quite valid to give people creative tools imho
20:42:37 <Alberth> a canvas and some paint
20:43:56 <andythenorth> AI bores me so I don’t know how well that goes
20:43:59 <andythenorth> newgrf is pretty strong
20:44:19 <andythenorth> scenario…seems a bit fragile?
20:44:22 <andythenorth> GS is….not as good as I’d hope, dunno why
20:44:57 <frosch123> i think gs is more interesting when other do it
20:45:27 <andythenorth> maybe it’s a limited audience, or maybe it’s the format, or maybe it’s lack of ideas
20:45:29 <frosch123> playing something you designed yourself is always weird
20:45:59 <frosch123> problem is that most gs do this weird town growth stuff, which is all equally meh to me
20:46:21 <andythenorth> I can grow towns way bigger than I want already
20:46:29 <Alberth> give more control over cargo payment?
20:46:33 <andythenorth> although….my 6 year old is a good barometer
20:46:47 <andythenorth> (1) his main goal is to grow his toyland city as big as possible
20:46:48 <frosch123> i play with industries, not with towns :)
20:46:59 <Alberth> city GS make grow more difficult
20:47:01 <andythenorth> (2) he is very jealous that I have two 20k cities next to each other
20:47:42 <andythenorth> (3) the other day in the car, I was wondering (in my head) why people want multi-layer bridges, then in same moment, he asked me out loud how multi-level bridges could be coded
20:48:29 <frosch123> enabling crossing bridges is like 3 lines
20:48:53 <frosch123> stacked bridges in same direction is a lot more work
20:49:21 <andythenorth> I still don’t see the point :P
20:49:32 <andythenorth> although he said it means he can fit more tracks in
20:49:52 <frosch123> maybe it's the hope that 3d construction would make it more interesting
20:49:52 <andythenorth> to me, the core challenge of the game is cramming routes in :P
20:50:05 <andythenorth> I want it harder not easier
20:50:13 <frosch123> while for me that hope got crushed with bridge builder 15 years ago
20:50:54 <andythenorth> bridge builder? o_O
20:51:25 <frosch123> was an awesome puzzle game in 2000
20:52:06 <frosch123> then got a 3d version "pontifex", which was exactly what i had hoped for, but was actually completely boring
20:52:13 <andythenorth> he’s done the free levels
21:02:22 <andythenorth> other than authors :D
21:03:18 <frosch123> isn't that busy bee?
21:03:42 <frosch123> just "replayablity" swapped with "hand crafted single scenario and balancing"
21:04:29 <andythenorth> each RT3 scenario was quite crafted, and needed a different strategy
21:04:51 <andythenorth> ottd is quite different, I think differences might be:
21:04:54 <andythenorth> - map is different :P
21:05:14 <andythenorth> - newgrf makes it impossible to know which industries and vehicles are present
21:05:57 <Alberth> this looks like a scenario, where you do know such things
21:06:23 <Alberth> arguably, you could code the knowledge in the gs, eg from grfid
21:06:34 <Alberth> although you may not have access to it now
21:06:46 <V453000> andythenorth your research brings me to conclusion my daughter should start playing openttd about now
21:06:47 <andythenorth> arguably, the newgrf author might revamp the grf :P
21:06:58 <andythenorth> V453000: how old? 6-7 months?
21:07:14 <Alberth> andy: well, ok, +md5sum :p
21:07:53 <V453000> frosch123: pontifex and bridge builder "D
21:08:09 <andythenorth> V453000: maybe in 7 months more
21:08:21 <frosch123> V453000: i was thoroughly disappointed by pontifex
21:08:30 <V453000> I dont remember shit tbh
21:09:11 <frosch123> Alberth: andy likes duck-typing. so: if it is a ship that refits to coal, it's proabably a bulk freighter
21:10:05 <frosch123> V453000: blobby volley is the other thing that was played between cs 0.6-1.1 matches
21:10:22 <andythenorth> the scenario approach worked ok with a game on a DVD eh
21:10:25 <andythenorth> not so much with ottd
21:10:38 <V453000> I was thinking about buying planet coaster
21:10:50 <V453000> then I realized I might as well just play RCT2
21:12:07 <V453000> so I didn't do either
21:13:06 <frosch123> computer games are like music :) if you know enough, everything is covered from some earlier one
21:13:39 <moonpunter> this game has stood the test of time at least
21:15:39 <Zuu> I read about your road types work.
21:18:56 <frosch123> can we recruit you to design the script api? :)
21:20:57 <Zuu> Could be similar to rail types script API, although maybe some care is needed to not break most AIs in one go. :-)
21:21:40 <frosch123> the compatibility layer would probably always build the first available road/tram type
21:22:17 <Zuu> And then a method in the new version to set the road/tram type just like there is a method to set road or tram.
21:22:44 <Zuu> And some list to get a list of all road/tram types.
21:22:57 <frosch123> road/tram now play a more important role
21:23:08 <frosch123> they are more like a infrastructure type on their own
21:23:29 <frosch123> like tram having different reversal rules and such
21:24:01 <Zuu> And abiliy to query properties of the types as long as it is possible and not the result of a cb or deep in to the newgrf. (lower speed in winter etc.)
21:24:41 <frosch123> the properties work mostly the same as for railtypes
21:24:53 <frosch123> and iirc there was an api for railtypes
21:25:01 <Zuu> I never wrote a rail AI so I haven't looked too deep in to rail types. :-)
21:29:04 <frosch123> oh, another weirdness: gs could build road with no owner/town owner; but not trams :p
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21:29:46 <Zuu> frosch123: Why is that wierd in the game?
21:30:04 <Zuu> Are you using reality as a point here?
21:30:48 <frosch123> hmm, actually, you can also build canals
21:30:55 <frosch123> so tram should also be fine
21:31:09 <frosch123> we do not offer it in scenario editor though
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21:32:11 <Zuu> But sure, for some game modes or scenarios it could be interesting, and I would not oppose giving GS that power.
21:32:43 <Zuu> I don't think we will break any GS by allowing it to build trams.
21:32:49 <frosch123> the thing was: rail is only company owned and is removed when bankrupt
21:32:56 <frosch123> road can be town owned
21:33:07 <frosch123> tram cannot be town owner, but is also not removed when bankrupt
21:33:21 <frosch123> but then i remembered that canals behave the same as tram
21:33:33 <frosch123> canals are also not town owned, but are not removed when bankrupt
21:34:16 <Zuu> So if tram is not removed when bankrupt, will it still have a company id as owner? Or was it that deity and town is two separate values?
21:34:36 <frosch123> tram and canal are OWNER_NONE after bankrupt
21:34:39 <frosch123> everyone can remove them
21:34:55 <frosch123> road turns into OWNER_TOWN when near a town, and OWNER_NONE when far away
21:34:58 <frosch123> or something like that
21:35:21 <frosch123> town can also build road, which you cannot easily remove
21:35:31 <frosch123> while clearing OWNER_NONE stuff is unlimited
21:35:38 <Zuu> I guess the reason to not let towns own tram was that towns would then have to be teached what to do with the tram network.
21:36:05 <frosch123> nah, it was actually bit stuffing :)
21:36:20 <frosch123> 15 companies, 1 no company
21:36:27 <frosch123> town owner requires another bit
21:36:47 <frosch123> the regular tile owner is 5 bits
21:37:13 <frosch123> but since stations have 3 owners meanwhile, it needed to safe bits
21:37:24 <frosch123> (roadstop owner, road owner, tram owner)
21:38:08 * andythenorth has too much indirection in this ship compile
21:38:51 <andythenorth> capacity -> by cargo -> by size class -> from hull class
21:38:58 <andythenorth> that’s ridiculous :P
21:39:34 <andythenorth> 4 lookups / method calls to get capacity :P
21:39:54 <frosch123> i believe you can make it ludicrous
21:40:10 <andythenorth> I was wondering about mixins
21:40:30 <andythenorth> I could add a mixin to the hull class, providing a size
21:50:36 <frosch123> but i can read my diagram
21:50:47 <frosch123> can the author of that read their diagram?
21:51:26 <andythenorth> I will not miss being free of Plone, once I am finally free of Plone
22:03:29 <frosch123> am i done with watching ludicrous related scenes on yt?
22:03:40 <frosch123> i even found one which i did not remember
22:12:01 <andythenorth> right now I have gone from take-apart videos of dangerous electrical devices
22:13:21 <frosch123> some years ago the sun-equivalent reported about two women competing on how many they could handle in one day
22:13:51 <andythenorth> the YT automatic subtitles really don’t handle regional English accents
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22:18:13 <glx> <andythenorth> right now I have gone from take-apart videos of dangerous electrical devices <-- bigclivedotcom ?
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22:19:49 <Vinicius_Brasil> anybody wants to play online?
22:26:14 <Supercheese> Reddit's r/OpenTTD servers are usually populated
22:26:46 <frosch123> you can also sort the server list by number of active clients :)
22:27:19 <andythenorth> is the subreddit for ottd good?
22:27:45 <frosch123> it has no original informat
22:27:55 <frosch123> it's a link aggegator for forums
22:28:04 <frosch123> and a support forum
22:28:18 <frosch123> i like it for the latter, because i am not involved :)
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22:46:22 <jack__> if anybody wantsto play the servers name is jack's server
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