IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-01-06
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02:46:06 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on what you mean by "the economy" and "recover"
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15:26:57 <Wolf01> Sunny here, really clear sky
15:27:37 <Wolf01> Snow maybe tomorrow, or sunday
15:31:37 <supermop> time for snowy tram sprites
15:47:15 <Wolf01> I think I healed myself enough to try to do something
15:48:29 <Wolf01> I have been able to play for a massive 1:45 hours today before fainting
16:11:45 <Wolf01> frosch123, are you working on something?
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16:13:57 <frosch123> no, i am waiting on people to use the shit :)
16:30:11 <supermop> so many good sheds in firs
16:32:42 <Wolf01> Meh, they dropped minecraft for windows phones... no more updates
16:33:36 *** Rubidium_ is now known as Rubidium
16:33:53 <Rubidium> Windows phone? Is that still a thing?
16:34:07 <Wolf01> Some people still use it
16:34:37 <Wolf01> For example I won't switch to android or iphone for any reason
16:35:02 <Alberth> not for minecraft updates? :p
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16:36:05 <Wolf01> But since I purchased it again on the phone to play when far from home I would have liked some more support
16:36:48 <Wolf01> I still could play on tablet
16:37:20 <Wolf01> Maybe not the same performance, but biggest screen
16:45:45 <Wolf01> frosch123, should I publish the "no houses" branch? I'm syncing my local copy with master
16:47:57 <frosch123> sure, i guess there is nothing controversial about that one :)
16:48:15 <frosch123> but for all the other suggestions i would like to see people using stuff first
16:48:59 <frosch123> it's rather moody to talk about towns building different road types, when there are none for players to build :p
16:54:09 <Wolf01> Playing a quick game just to be sure it doesn't assert at the firts house construction :P
16:57:00 <frosch123> build 5 bus stops, send 3 bus in a circle and fast forward :)
17:02:18 <Alberth> press "fund new buildings" :)
17:03:02 <Alberth> hmm, have a town road type that doesn't like houses? :o
17:04:16 <Wolf01> Lol, self killing city
17:05:44 <Wolf01> Btw, the flag will be enabled only for tramways by default, grfs may change it as they want
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17:48:11 <Wolf01> I noticed there's only one problem with that patch, the flag is only useful for ROAD
17:48:49 <Wolf01> Tramways are already ignored by the game as houses won't be built along them
17:58:44 <frosch123> same applies to drive-in stops :)
18:01:36 <Wolf01> Having a feature working on only half of the spec is a bad feature imho :/
18:02:28 <Wolf01> Also I noticed a nice thing, when loading a game all vehicles lose power :P
18:02:30 <frosch123> i am more worried about electrified road + non-electrified tram
18:02:37 <supermop> is there an example nml code for writing a road newgrf?
18:02:39 <frosch123> because you cannot see that the tram is not-electrified
18:02:49 <frosch123> but then, the same applies to train depots
18:03:31 <frosch123> it's in the nrt nml
18:15:59 <Wolf01> Could I hide "convert-road" from repo?
18:25:57 <frosch123> he, is the author in our channel?
18:26:13 <frosch123> wasn't there recently that management gui here?
18:26:32 <Wolf01> Yeah, it made me think that too
18:27:06 <Wolf01> I think the "problem" is more common than it seem
18:27:47 <frosch123> "management" is always the problem :p
18:32:41 <frosch123> yay, i found a 62 in the code
18:32:53 <frosch123> sometimes ottd is just crap :p
18:33:23 <frosch123> a random number that is either wrong, or does not matter
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19:16:14 <supermop> if i have 4 types of chips/isr pavement, that is easily 8 road types and 8 tram types before even adding exotic stuff like HAUL
19:17:41 <Wolf01> Do they have different features or just eyecandy?
19:17:45 <supermop> so i guess will need a param for like, do you want isr or chips style ground
19:17:58 <supermop> Wolf01: just to match station gound tiles
19:18:28 <supermop> chips mud, chips cobble, chips asphalt, and ISR
19:19:44 <supermop> wanted to add the slag-y looking ground tile from new FIRS steelmill too
19:20:30 <supermop> realistically they would all be slower than road, as it is meant to be part of a freight yard or industrial area
19:21:00 <supermop> but maybe players want their molten metal driving at 100kmh from the blast furnace to foundry
19:21:22 <Wolf01> Make a prop to disable speed limits
19:21:35 <Wolf01> Or set speed limits like on rail sets
19:22:17 <supermop> for gameplay, or some other reason?
19:22:50 <Wolf01> Why do we have speed limits for rails?
19:24:10 <supermop> not all rail sets have speed limits
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19:29:38 <supermop> road or tram type to match those tiles
19:29:54 <Alberth> as soon as we have more than 1 tile to stop, it becomes useful to consider speed limits
19:29:54 <supermop> so whole harbor looks consistent
19:30:54 <supermop> Alberth: sure, but i wonder if asphalt>cobble is actually meaningfully fun
19:32:12 <supermop> FIRS metal workshop has cobble base, but if cobble is super slow, then player is penalized to choose the 'right looking' road
19:32:23 <supermop> and then why even bother using the road set at all
19:33:26 <Wolf01> I would use the best looking road even if vehicles will go backwards
19:34:11 <supermop> Wolf01: should mud/gravel/cobble/asphalt have different costs too?
19:34:37 <glx> mud should cost nothing :)
19:34:54 <supermop> currently, station tiles are generally all trivially cheap across newgrfs
19:35:06 <Wolf01> And should not have maintainance cost
19:35:19 <andythenorth> Wolf01: speed limits are, imho, daft
19:35:20 <supermop> so there is no huge cost to build a big eyecandy station of any type you wish
19:35:25 <andythenorth> I already have speed limits for the trains
19:35:33 <andythenorth> termite has no speed limits
19:35:46 * andythenorth back from logs :P
19:36:24 <supermop> i would be fine saying, all of these 'yard roads' are 50 or 80 kmh or something, with param to disable speed limit
19:36:26 <andythenorth> I am going to fold Termite into Iron Horse
19:36:49 <supermop> andytheworstpractices
19:37:28 <andythenorth> too many times I’ve followed best practice
19:37:53 <supermop> we need a station feature to alter load speed, etc based on platform type
19:38:04 <andythenorth> ‘OpenTTD cannot have port industries, it breaks the in-world cargo model'
19:38:10 <supermop> people have a hard time climbing up into the train from the mud
19:38:26 <andythenorth> ‘all fieldsets should have legends, and legends should be nested'
19:38:56 <supermop> nor to passengers enjoy being poured into the train from a tipple
19:38:59 <andythenorth> ‘use CPP, not an arcane templating language nobody else understands'
19:39:04 * andythenorth cherry-picking examples
19:41:29 <supermop> a weir object would be nice
19:41:43 <supermop> freely overbuildable by locks
19:42:03 <andythenorth> what would be nicer is…ships going up slopes
19:42:12 <andythenorth> the rapids thing is daft
19:42:27 <supermop> those river rapids flowing into side of that port look silly
19:42:28 * andythenorth might try hacking rivers in 2017 :P
19:42:41 <andythenorth> although, if I buy a new laptop
19:42:47 <andythenorth> I won’t be hacking any more ottd at all :P
19:43:23 <supermop> andy just add 10 variants of slihtly less steep slope
19:43:46 <supermop> was playing on a PL server last night
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19:44:03 <supermop> building a lock was like half a million quid
19:44:31 <supermop> all these big wide long rivers and couldn't get my boats into them
19:45:03 <andythenorth> eh, let’s make some roads first :)
19:45:10 <supermop> also need flat docks - the terraforming cost was set so high i couldn't build any docks up on the river either
19:45:18 <andythenorth> one feature per year :)
19:46:10 <supermop> chips tile roads quickly runs out of 15 road types
19:46:27 <supermop> unless i am not thinking of something correctly
19:46:53 <supermop> 4 for road, 4 for haul, 4 for electric road?
19:47:13 <supermop> then 4 for tram and 4 for electric tram
19:47:31 <supermop> soo 12/15 and 8/15 used
19:48:32 <andythenorth> yup, you broke it :)
19:48:32 <supermop> leaves only 3 regular roads - road, E Road, and Haul
19:50:23 <supermop> i want 600mm, 1M, standard and broad gauge tramways, plus all combinations thereof
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19:52:44 <frosch123> hmm, i think the pattern is: if there are two simliar functions, and the older one does not work, the newer one was likely added just because of that
19:53:11 <andythenorth> I have owned code like that :)
19:53:29 <supermop> chips asphalt and ISR pavement are probably the two that would be most useful to the typical player who wants to make nice stations
19:54:07 <supermop> but they are visually almost the same
19:54:31 <supermop> turn each type on or off by parameter?
19:54:42 <andythenorth> supermop: two grfs :D
19:55:39 <supermop> fork firs to use ISR groundtiles throughout
19:56:35 <supermop> isr has a separate ore station grf with dark brown ground
19:56:56 <supermop> also - steelmill slag ground tiles?
19:59:18 <andythenorth> one grf per type :P
19:59:40 <andythenorth> frosch123: any inclination to patch hidden types?
19:59:48 <andythenorth> I would update RH for it
20:00:07 <frosch123> i am unsure how to implement them
20:00:57 <frosch123> if one grf defines a label as hidden type, and another one as real type, the real type has to win
20:02:23 <frosch123> i think it cannot be just a flag in that case, i guess it needs some different "label" property to perform a different reservation procedure
20:03:03 <andythenorth> I wonder if it has unexpected / unwanted side effects
20:03:16 <andythenorth> the mapping of vehicles to types is already confusing enough, as an author
20:03:22 <andythenorth> does this just make it worse?
20:03:49 <frosch123> it certainly affects tracktype introduction
20:04:05 <frosch123> currently a vehicle introduces its tracktype, if not available yet
20:04:14 <frosch123> which types does the virtual one introduce?
20:04:29 <frosch123> those from the "introduces" property?
20:04:40 <frosch123> and the vehicle is disabled if none of them exists?
20:05:39 <frosch123> anyway, why do you not add trails as off-road track :p
20:06:03 <frosch123> you need something to connect road and haul, don't you?
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20:06:31 <andythenorth> I might just treat the non-compatibility as a constraint
20:06:35 <andythenorth> not all things need to be solved
20:06:49 <andythenorth> constraints are useful, total freedom is boring
20:07:29 <andythenorth> maybe HAUL should be trams? o_O
20:08:04 <frosch123> HAUL souinds like mostly underlay
20:08:10 <frosch123> and road underlay wins over tram underlay
20:08:44 <andythenorth> but RAIL -> HAUL could be done with the convert tool
20:08:48 <frosch123> i think you rather want some mining train
20:08:51 <andythenorth> round about 1960, when my trams run out :)
20:09:01 <frosch123> 600mm gauge for mining
20:09:56 <frosch123> andythenorth: that sounds like the stupid rail -> mono -> maglev conversion
20:10:09 <frosch123> sell all, remove all, restart from scratch
20:10:18 <frosch123> i always prefered adding stuff
20:10:24 <frosch123> than replacing stuff
20:10:53 <frosch123> so something that allows both the old tram and new haul sounds better to me
20:11:20 <frosch123> esp. with your one-to-one compatibility
20:11:30 <andythenorth> also they’re road vehicles, it’s bad hax to build them as light rail :P
20:11:34 <frosch123> otherwise you need bridges :p
20:36:02 <andythenorth> maybe I should add a universal road
20:36:07 <andythenorth> but crippled by speed limits
20:39:17 <Wolf01> Change speed limit in different town zones, to confuse the player
21:01:30 <supermop> andythenorth: thats called mud
21:04:32 <frosch123> something that would allow andy to skip drawing trail road :)
21:06:03 * andythenorth could cut power to most ROAD vehicles on HAUL
21:06:09 <andythenorth> so they go incredibly slowly
21:06:13 <andythenorth> user hostile? o_O
21:06:36 <frosch123> speed limit is a static thing from the roadtype pov
21:06:48 <andythenorth> cb to current roadtype? o_O
21:07:10 <andythenorth> where’s the fun :P
21:07:30 <andythenorth> how will I animate dust effects on trail only?
21:07:37 <frosch123> someone did the work to cache stuff as long as the roadtype does not change under the vehicle
21:07:47 <andythenorth> And Other Important Features
21:07:50 <frosch123> if roadtypes get callbacks, we would have to invalidate on every tile
21:08:09 <andythenorth> I was thinking a var on cb36 (or so)
21:08:25 <andythenorth> but trains have it
21:08:36 <frosch123> road vehicles have that too
21:09:03 <andythenorth> can I nerf the relibability to 0 O_O
21:09:06 <frosch123> so, hog can draw effects on specific roads
21:14:10 <supermop> andythenorth: why exactly can a bus not drive on haul?
21:15:09 <andythenorth> because it drives on ROAD? o_O
21:16:48 <supermop> is the haul road too bumpy or something?
21:17:21 <supermop> or just because there is a sign saying private road, do not enter?
21:18:13 <andythenorth> I didn’t rationalise it
21:18:18 <andythenorth> it’s just a different route type
21:19:32 <andythenorth> for me, game is about building routes
21:19:37 <andythenorth> and fitting them into tiles
21:19:42 <supermop> then why bother cutting bus power? just disallow
21:19:50 <andythenorth> yeah, that’s the current solution
21:19:55 <andythenorth> everything else is basically trolling :P
21:20:51 <andythenorth> I wondered if the railtypes spec design went like this:
21:21:11 <andythenorth> - putting the compatibility property on the vehicle is really a lot of repetitive work when coding a set
21:21:17 <andythenorth> - so put it on the railtype instead
21:21:33 <andythenorth> or whether there was some other rationale
21:22:02 <frosch123> the rationale is that track types are not supplied by vehicle grfs :)
21:23:10 <andythenorth> but vehicles are not supplied by track type grfs
21:23:31 * andythenorth is not grumbling
21:23:44 <supermop> next andy will add code to disable all andy grfs if a non-andy road or track grf is loaded
21:24:29 <andythenorth> I think that’s probably wise
21:24:44 <andythenorth> hey look, trolleybuses exist
21:25:06 <andythenorth> can we crowdfund ‘return of DaleStan’ o_O
21:34:23 <andythenorth> sometimes I think things were ‘better’ in the old days
21:34:30 <andythenorth> they weren’t, and I am wrong :)
21:34:54 <andythenorth> same stuff, different user names :)
21:38:28 <frosch123> that was a follow up post to a post in the locomotion section on the same day
21:40:04 <frosch123> see, it's all in the trails topic
21:42:01 <andythenorth> still no Canadian trainset though :(
21:43:42 <frosch123> does nars not qualify?
22:00:05 <andythenorth> redundant due to GS? o_O
22:00:49 <frosch123> yes, it's in the abandoned section, if you check the parent page :)
22:01:00 * andythenorth checks the parent page :P
22:01:06 <frosch123> 1.5 years ago there was a newgrf/gs interface stuff
22:01:17 <frosch123> it even has a compile farm set up
22:01:21 <frosch123> but then nothing was done :p
22:01:59 <andythenorth> was there a discussion logged somewhere? o_O
22:04:17 <supermop> hah the someone who picked it up was you andythenorth
22:04:52 <andythenorth> only took 8 years or so
22:06:26 <Alberth> There is discussion about "Newgrf/GS" at nov 9, 2014
22:06:27 <frosch123> i think there is also a forum topic
22:06:31 <frosch123> and quite sure a lot in irc
22:07:04 <Alberth> areas are still in my head :)
22:07:33 <Alberth> not to mention they seem part of certain wild-west ideas here :)
22:09:00 <frosch123> looks like that topic was quite popular :p
22:09:21 <andythenorth> ach I owed Zuu some tests on that
22:09:38 <andythenorth> it released the day before I went on holiday or so
22:10:24 <frosch123> area control was not done, because noone had an interesting application :)
22:10:42 * andythenorth is not starting a GS project any time soon
22:10:46 <frosch123> it was written because i browsed simutrans forums
22:10:56 <andythenorth> enough newgrfs unfinished :P
22:11:00 <frosch123> maybe i should do that again :p
22:11:48 <andythenorth> I think I’ll have to replace my ‘x units’ text with ‘underload, [empty], overload’ strings
22:11:51 <frosch123> you already posted that last month?
22:12:13 <andythenorth> I tried making it show the actual cargo
22:12:24 <andythenorth> but eh, the cb doesn’t have support for that
22:12:30 <andythenorth> the cargo presumably isn’t known
22:13:02 <andythenorth> also I realised the vehicle window text would repeat the cargo capacity twice
22:13:25 <frosch123> how about "+25%", "-25%"
22:13:39 <andythenorth> pretty much the best solution I think
22:13:51 <supermop> light ship goes faster?
22:13:52 <andythenorth> I had a horrible idea about ships having holds
22:14:22 <andythenorth> fixed capacity per hold, all same cargo, store the number of holds; actual capacity is number_holds * fixed_capacity
22:14:32 <andythenorth> probably stupid and pointless
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23:37:54 <LordAro> V453000: dem rails look nice
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