IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-12-23
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00:25:43 <_dp_> ok, looks like it does SetupCargoForClimate, so it never sets up default cargo if it doesn't match the climate
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02:14:21 <_dp_> Redirect_Left, actually passengers for some reason became cola. Towns accept and produce cola and mail %)
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11:46:50 <__ln__> congratulations to the italian police
11:47:52 <Wolf01> Thanks, but if the guy didn't shot first he might have passed the controls...
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12:31:19 <andythenorth> frosch123: CARGO_NAME works
12:44:46 * andythenorth should add more HAUL vehicles
12:46:51 <_dp_> Hi! What should I put in nml float to to get the dword value I want? Just divide it by 256?
12:52:29 <Eddi|zuHause> you can use the nfo-unit like "1234 nfo" to give the integer directly
12:56:15 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah that page is very incomplete
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13:31:03 <andythenorth> how do I install nmlc?
13:31:08 * andythenorth never understands
13:32:37 <andythenorth> ah it’s bloody setup.py :)
13:35:04 <andythenorth> lots of warnings
13:35:06 <andythenorth> and it doesn’t work
13:37:06 <andythenorth> pip is broken in python 3 also? :o
13:44:27 <andythenorth> yay, the python distribution tools are all broken
13:44:33 <andythenorth> they fail with syntax errors
13:45:37 <andythenorth> looks like they broke backwards compatibility with python 3.2
13:46:49 <Wolf01> I found that having all python versions installed is a good way to deal with these problems, you try all of them and when you find the one which works you make a script to run your script with the right version ;)
13:47:03 <Wolf01> Now I don't use python anymore
13:47:56 <andythenorth> I just want to use nml from my nml checkout
13:48:06 <andythenorth> but it’s impossible to do that
13:48:14 <andythenorth> in any sensible way
13:48:22 <andythenorth> only in stupid ways
13:48:44 <andythenorth> patching the makefile works to give the exact path works, but that’s dumb and breaks coop jenkins
13:51:28 <Wolf01> I'm uncertain to add events to my scene manager instead... like OnSceneActivated, OnSceneChange, OnSceneChanged :/ It will open more possibilities but also some abuse
13:59:27 * andythenorth just copied the files from nml into site-packages
13:59:33 <andythenorth> that is the ugliest solution I’ve ever seen
14:00:09 <andythenorth> would I use setuptools? o_O
14:00:14 <andythenorth> maybe I could call it ‘setup.py'
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14:05:34 <andythenorth> frosch123: CARGO_NAME is a single byte? o_O
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14:17:37 <andythenorth> now I need a ‘pop byte’ string command :P )D
14:17:39 <frosch123> andythenorth: also, symlinking nmlc to /usr/local/bin is the easiest solution
14:17:58 <frosch123> hmm, so, should we make it a word instead then?
14:18:13 <andythenorth> unfortunately, might need to?
14:18:23 <frosch123> most things are words there :)
14:19:49 <frosch123> andythenorth: just replace PopUnsignedByte with PopUnsignedWord in newgrf_text.cpp
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14:38:58 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27706 /trunk/src (newgrf_text.cpp table/control_codes.h) (2016-12-23 14:38:50 +0100 )
14:38:59 <DorpsGek> -Feature: [NewGRF] String command 9A 1E to print the name of a cargo type.
14:41:48 <frosch123> andythenorth: updated eints, so you can push as well
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15:08:29 <lorran78> how can i compile it?
15:08:52 <lorran78> hum okay then i can't use nml program?
15:08:56 <_dp_> I bet it generates nml if you run it)
15:08:58 <frosch123> if there is also a Makefile, then it is still make
15:09:22 <lorran78> oh okay i can use same cmd to compile nml but how can i modify?
15:10:00 <frosch123> python is a programming language
15:10:17 <frosch123> you won't learn that in 2 hours, if you are not already experienced with programming
15:11:09 <lorran78> hum :( i only want to add "introduction_date" to vehicules like i've done in the opengfx+trains
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15:11:46 <frosch123> as dp said, the python thing likely generates an nml file inbetween
15:12:09 <frosch123> there are more than one program involved
15:12:34 <lorran78> oh i forgot that in the grf there is a templates with pnml file normally i can found vehicules here?
15:12:57 <lorran78> and all other files are py
15:13:43 <frosch123> well, oil colours are harder to use than water colours
15:15:02 <lorran78> oh it's not only pnml but a lot of pynml...
15:15:32 <Eddi|zuHause> that's something completely different...
15:16:01 <Eddi|zuHause> also, there's probably a table with vehicle data
15:18:11 <frosch123> generally it helps if you have a computer that is suitable for development
15:18:22 <frosch123> like a computer that can actuall search for something
15:21:43 <lorran78> thx frosch123 for the example
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15:43:55 <lorran78> is there a way to set a higher number of industries per town?
15:44:22 <lorran78> like more than one bank or other?
15:45:44 <frosch123> there is a setting in ottd, which restricts industries to one per town
15:45:48 <frosch123> maybe you have that enabled
15:50:01 <_dp_> Banks also have 15 tiles min distance between them, so you'll need pretty big town to get two banks
15:57:54 <MonkeyDrone> frosch123: is it possible to modify the source code for server-side and recompile to change the autoclean companies max limit of 255?
15:58:41 <lorran78> oh i see i check for this settings
15:58:47 <frosch123> that setting sounds like it is not part of savegames, so it should be safe to change
15:59:21 <MonkeyDrone> there is under advanced settings 'multiple industries per town' available
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16:39:23 <Eddi|zuHause> is that me or does steam have connectivity problems?
16:40:04 <andythenorth> web store is very slow to respond
16:41:04 <andythenorth> hmm, will I pull the tail on the python?
16:41:07 <andythenorth> or leave it alone?
16:41:32 <__ln__> i'll close my steam client so there'll be bandwidth left for you people
16:42:59 * andythenorth wonders how coop jenkins gets a new nml
16:51:31 <andythenorth> seems it got one :P
16:58:25 <andythenorth> frosch123: so how do we server game then? o_O
17:10:35 <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess we try to take over #openttdcoop.nightly
17:15:11 <frosch123> problem with coop servers is that there are usally 12 outdated ways to start a server
17:15:35 <frosch123> well, i cloned nrt and compiled it
17:15:38 <andythenorth> if we seriously want to play a game, I will patch Road Hog some more
17:15:44 <frosch123> but no idea how the bot knows about it
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17:21:44 <frosch123> looks like i need to checkout stuff with a different user now :p
17:22:20 <andythenorth> we are short of a planetmaker these days :)
17:23:15 <andythenorth> can I merge ottd trunk into NRT?
17:23:24 <frosch123> oh my, how does a simple "su" even attach to an existing console?
17:23:25 <andythenorth> it merged clean, but I didn’t push
17:23:38 <frosch123> andythenorth: i just merged yesterday
17:23:42 <frosch123> so i guess there is only one commit
17:23:49 <frosch123> should be pretty safe :p
17:25:52 <frosch123> sorry, i do not know how coop works :)
17:26:12 <andythenorth> I don’t have good enough upstream to host at home
17:26:24 <andythenorth> I will happily play a solo test game
17:26:53 <frosch123> i guess it's SP then
17:29:33 <andythenorth> I likely won’t have more than an hour uninterrupted in next few days :)
17:29:40 <andythenorth> lots of time, but lots of interruptions
17:29:55 <andythenorth> so MP probably a bit hit and miss
17:30:11 <andythenorth> hmm overbuilding a HAUL bridge with tram causes an artefact
17:31:22 <andythenorth> peter1139: ‘people’ is a strong word
17:34:47 <peter1139> been here 11 years?
17:35:00 <peter1139> shame i lost the ottd mojo
17:35:16 <andythenorth> dunno how I keep interested
17:36:11 <peter1139> then again i used to use linux all the time
17:36:15 <peter1139> now i windows it at home
17:37:13 * andythenorth used to cycle everywhere
17:37:16 <andythenorth> now I have a Mondeo
17:37:44 <peter1139> i used to drive everywhere
17:38:31 <andythenorth> ok, the world is in balance then :P
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17:40:46 <andythenorth> it’s probably the lack of multi-stop docks that lost your mojo
17:45:39 <andythenorth> arbitrarily combinable, flat-or-sloped, multi-stop docks
18:13:22 <Wolf01> I wonder who will help you to do that ;)
18:15:34 <andythenorth> someone who likes hard problems :P
18:15:54 <Wolf01> Ok, not me, I'm just curious :P
18:17:51 * andythenorth still trying to code vehicles that are cross-compatible between multiple roadtypes
18:18:25 <andythenorth> without success :D
18:20:10 <Wolf01> Make all the roadtypes mutually compatible :P
18:31:20 <andythenorth> industry ‘efficiency’
18:31:24 <andythenorth> what’s a less boring word?
18:33:04 <andythenorth> ‘production ratio: wasteful’
18:33:12 <andythenorth> ‘production ratio: good’
18:33:30 <frosch123> s/wasteful/abysmal/
18:33:30 <andythenorth> ‘production ratio: fricking awesome'
18:33:48 <ZirconiumX> 'production ratio: amazeballs'
18:33:52 <andythenorth> I could just use the station ratings eh
18:34:01 <andythenorth> ‘appalling, mediocre, outstanding'
18:34:25 <frosch123> "productivy" could also work
18:34:30 <andythenorth> for extra hassle, some industries have 3 options, and some only have 2
18:34:57 <andythenorth> ‘Productivity’ is not bad
18:35:09 <frosch123> speed is blue, effiency is green, productivity is violet
18:35:23 <andythenorth> rainbow coloured industry window :)
18:35:53 <frosch123> V would approve those colour :p
18:35:58 <andythenorth> complete control over the industry window - a pony too far? o_O
18:36:10 <frosch123> yeah, no gs or newgrf gui
18:36:17 <andythenorth> ‘Cargo waiting to be processed’ is useless :)
18:36:18 <frosch123> we need a html gui for that
18:46:01 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> I could just use the station ratings eh <andythenorth> ‘appalling, mediocre, outstanding' <- that would be a great idea
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19:10:02 <andythenorth> “Manufacturing supplies: delivered in last 90 days”
19:10:07 <andythenorth> “Manufacturing supplies: delivered”
19:10:26 <andythenorth> (alternative string for condition-not-met is “Manufacturing supplies: required”)
19:16:30 <frosch123> "in stock", "missing"
19:19:12 <andythenorth> I think “in stock” is blighted by the whole concept of stockpiling :)
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19:21:33 <andythenorth> maybe just a list of ‘Required for efficiency boost: [cargos]’
19:24:01 <frosch123> it needs some kind of feedback which conditions are met, and which aren't
19:27:28 <andythenorth> but there are industries which don’t combine
19:27:41 <andythenorth> and there are industries which combine MNSP + [any of 2 cargos]
19:28:27 <andythenorth> I’ll have to have a parameter for ‘minimalist | frosch-ist’ :)
19:29:56 <andythenorth> do we have a ✔︎ character? :P
19:30:17 <frosch123> but it is bad because it does not work with fonts
19:30:26 <frosch123> maybe we even forbid it in eints
19:30:50 * andythenorth discards that idea
19:35:14 <frosch123> i mostly meant the "yellow" as for the waiting amounts
19:35:25 <frosch123> the "red" is also okay, but the white and green is too much
19:38:57 <andythenorth> I think the red has contrast problems
19:39:54 <frosch123> we have no colorblind mode
19:40:18 <frosch123> and if you are not colorblind, then the text does not matter, "something red" is enough
19:41:17 <andythenorth> lose the white in favour of yellow?
19:42:01 <frosch123> imho all static text in black, all dynamic text in yellow
19:43:12 <supermop> anyone else always read nu tracks as 'nut racks'?
19:43:39 <supermop> frosch123: +1 to standards
19:47:04 <frosch123> i usually read it as "why?"
19:49:30 <andythenorth> all-yellow is a bit blah
19:50:16 <andythenorth> ha, default black holes / secondaries have ‘Requires: [cargos]’
19:50:40 <Wolf01> I wonder if is possible to disable the "cargo waiting to br processed" part if not used
19:51:03 <frosch123> i think we already have a spec for that
19:51:23 <andythenorth> it’s in your grf v9 spec or so
19:51:41 <andythenorth> I looked on your dev.openttd pages earlier, but couldn’t guess the url
19:52:02 <frosch123> dev is only quak iirc
19:57:16 <frosch123> it's modifying an existing cb
19:57:32 <frosch123> but with various question marks
20:13:37 <frosch123> what does that mean?
20:13:47 <frosch123> that coal is supplied, while iore and scrp are not?
20:14:57 <andythenorth> does it rely too much on implication?
20:15:28 <frosch123> i would expect some "(missing)"
20:15:47 <andythenorth> but “Requires: Coal (Required)"
20:15:55 <andythenorth> looked weird, and I couldn’t think of a better word
20:15:59 <frosch123> also, did you try cb 37?
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20:16:32 <frosch123> "cargo_subtype_display"
20:17:00 <frosch123> allows you to display some text after the "waiting to be processed" lines
20:17:02 * andythenorth wonders what the idea of that was :)
20:17:52 <frosch123> i fixed a bug with that somewhen, so i think i have a testgame with some grf that uses it
20:18:06 <andythenorth> it’s a very bad idea :D
20:18:30 <andythenorth> but o/c, it’s subtypes :D
20:21:27 <frosch123> but you could put the "required", "present" text there
20:21:43 <andythenorth> I considered if I could make that work
20:21:53 <andythenorth> but ‘waiting to be processed’ makes it read strangely
20:22:49 <frosch123> oh, ecs and pbi use it to display maximum stockpile limits
20:24:39 <frosch123> no idea how it starts with "6" in a new game
20:24:58 <frosch123> also no idea why an animal farm needs fish
20:25:26 <andythenorth> bacon comes from sardines
20:25:47 <andythenorth> or middle pig :P
20:31:03 <frosch123> dinosaurs are more healthy to eas
20:35:13 <andythenorth> frosch123: is NRT done ‘enough'?
20:35:26 <andythenorth> there are about 4 existing forum threads it could be released into :P
20:35:53 <frosch123> i wanted to finish convertroad, but didn't :p
20:36:04 <frosch123> anyway, it all depends on the grf :)
20:36:31 <andythenorth> convert road isn’t essential
20:36:44 <frosch123> i wouldn't dump it into someone else's thread
20:37:02 <frosch123> though it would be funny if it was a suggestion thread, because noone would find/read it then
20:37:11 <andythenorth> my thoughts exactly :P
20:37:37 <andythenorth> that has HAUL, ROAD, RAIL, ELRL
20:37:58 <andythenorth> the multi-mode vehicles didn’t work, it needs a spec extension, or I’m doing it wrong
20:38:47 <frosch123> it's funny, i thought the train guys had "elrail or 3rdrail" vehicles
20:39:27 <frosch123> i never followed railtypes that much, it was mostly realism bullshit
20:40:25 <andythenorth> I will just have to build extra roads to my mines
20:40:39 <andythenorth> I can’t run buses on my haul road…but I can run trams
20:41:11 <andythenorth> is there any wisdom in allowing a roadtype to forbid tram and vice-versa?
20:41:19 <andythenorth> or is that BAD FEATURE?
20:41:43 <frosch123> restrictions do not add much
20:41:59 <frosch123> and you can break about anything with "over-head tram" over "canal road"
20:43:21 <frosch123> s/over-head/suspension/
20:43:26 <frosch123> apparently that is the correct term
20:44:04 <V453000> universal rail be good :P
20:44:42 <frosch123> V453000: make a belt road type
20:45:11 <V453000> & it would look inevitably shit due to isometric & diagonal tiles
20:45:44 <frosch123> andythenorth: looks good
20:46:35 <andythenorth> now just need to lose ‘cargo waiting to be processed’ block :D
20:46:56 * andythenorth could patch it to be turned on or off by a property, instead of by using production cb
20:47:10 <andythenorth> probably 10 kinds of problem with that idea
20:50:30 <supermop> would be kind of fun to see hardware store slowly burn through their stock
20:51:15 <andythenorth> at what rate? o_O
20:52:02 <_dp_> Is there a way to disable exclusive previews?
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21:00:06 <_dp_> hm, may be I can trick the game into thinking it has already been offered
21:01:00 <frosch123> hmm, yeah, you could prepare a savegame, where preview_asked is preset for all companies
21:02:06 <frosch123> you could try to set ENGINE_EXCLUSIVE_PREVIEW in advance
21:05:05 <_dp_> or set preview_company to a server one
21:06:04 <frosch123> no, that one is set on each client in EnginesMonthlyLoop()
21:08:00 <_dp_> yeah, looks like I'll have to set ENGINE_EXCLUSIVE_PREVIEW anyway
21:08:58 <_dp_> I wish more stuff were stored in savegame like engines))
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21:41:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: and there'll be another poor guy who has the opposite problem
21:43:28 <Wolf01> And that guy is your other half, but you won't know that
21:51:29 <andythenorth> frosch123: your proposal for cb37 - empty strings can be returned using 0800 - 0CFF? But ‘Cargo waiting to be processed’ is not dropped?
21:53:11 <frosch123> the idea is that only some of the lines would be replaced
21:53:38 <frosch123> so, in general that " to be processed" text would stay, but maybe we can find a more general text
21:54:48 * andythenorth tries to think of one
21:55:29 <frosch123> "Incoming cargo", "Input cargo", ...
21:56:00 <andythenorth> “Accepted cargo:”
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21:59:26 <andythenorth> Allow substitution of default with a string in a register?
21:59:48 <Wolf01> Accepted cargo and required is a bit redundant
22:00:16 <Wolf01> It needs something like "(0% transported)" in the accepted part
22:00:37 <andythenorth> “Processed cargo” sounds like output imo
22:01:09 <andythenorth> “Requires: Coal (100t waiting to be processed)”
22:01:15 <andythenorth> Wolf01: ^ you mean that?
22:04:50 <Wolf01> And "(100t waiting to be processed)" in other cases
22:05:37 <andythenorth> I think the “0 litres of” is redundant at the front
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22:05:47 <Wolf01> Yes, jusy "oil" is enough
22:07:15 * andythenorth wishes chrome would stop eating battery
22:07:39 <andythenorth> maybe I have to try Opera :P
22:08:09 <andythenorth> no OS X build :P
22:09:01 <andythenorth> I have modern.ie
22:09:39 <andythenorth> such IE 8 I have to use
22:10:48 <andythenorth> it’s not great for looking at screenshots
22:11:34 <Wolf01> Wasn't lynx with image support on terminal?
22:12:24 <andythenorth> so eh, what shall I do with this FIRS window text?
22:12:41 <andythenorth> I have made a bit of a mess of FIRS, and not in a branch
22:12:46 <andythenorth> I should tidy it up
22:12:55 <andythenorth> translators probably hate me right now :P
22:26:12 <Wolf01> Translators always hate us developers
22:26:41 <Wolf01> Like graphics designers and developers hate each other
22:28:39 <andythenorth> so the problem with cb37 / 3A seems to be the spec? o_O
22:28:47 <andythenorth> w.r.t what should it be?
22:31:47 <frosch123> work around not being able to define the industry window in html
22:32:54 <andythenorth> maybe we need a html parser + layout engine
22:33:03 * andythenorth does fake serious
22:33:50 <andythenorth> my plan right now is to just work with what is there
22:34:07 <andythenorth> and implement all the conditional string handling that FIRS needs for this
22:34:30 <andythenorth> seems we don’t know what we want from cb 37 / 3A, so best leave it alone?
22:36:30 <andythenorth> what’s the efficiency of an industry that hasn’t produced recently?
22:38:19 <frosch123> oh, that's the same
22:38:27 <frosch123> yeah, "weekend" is cool :p
22:38:51 <Wolf01> No, I lost the count of the days again
22:39:20 <supermop> Wolf01: didnt you just have a job interview?
22:39:34 <andythenorth> nah, sounds like it’s closing
22:40:19 <frosch123> maybe "alien abduction" is more ttdish
22:40:37 <supermop> 'industry owner forgot to secure a source of materials before spending hundreds of millions on building a new factory in the middle of nowhere'
22:41:09 <andythenorth> ‘deliver cargo you useless tycoon'
22:41:19 <supermop> is what id typically call a production line that is tooled up but not working
22:41:39 <andythenorth> ‘Efficiency: idle’ isn’t strict English eh?
22:42:14 <andythenorth> Efficiency: awaiting cargo
22:42:21 <andythenorth> Efficiency: awaiting deliveries
22:42:30 <frosch123> efficiency: your turn
22:42:39 <supermop> everyday the workers show up eagerly thinking,
22:42:46 <frosch123> probably to subtile to understand
22:42:55 <andythenorth> Efficiency remains a boring word, eh
22:42:59 <supermop> "today's going to be the day that some steel finally shows up to stamp!"
22:43:21 <supermop> production: inefficient
22:43:25 <frosch123> andythenorth: keep "efficency" and make the words after the ":" more interesting
22:43:25 <andythenorth> ‘Production’ is already in the window
22:43:29 <supermop> production: efficient
22:44:07 <andythenorth> I could do a % :P
22:44:07 <frosch123> efficiency: scottish
22:44:26 <frosch123> noone will know what it means :)
22:44:38 <andythenorth> Efficiency: 100 * 3/8
22:45:43 <andythenorth> also % everywhere is blah
22:45:53 <andythenorth> Efficiency: Italian | English | German
22:46:47 <frosch123> efficiency: koala | horse | squirrel
22:46:57 <supermop> legal american resident | illegal alien | outsourced foreign labor
22:46:59 <Wolf01> Efficiency reminds me about how many delivered items are required to produce 1 output item
22:47:26 <andythenorth> Efficiency: the cherry blossom dances in the breeze, carp rise in the waters
22:48:06 <Wolf01> As it doesn't change (you still need x items to produce y output) I think you should think about another word
22:49:34 <andythenorth> can’t think of one
22:49:39 <andythenorth> efficiency is blah
22:49:53 <andythenorth> but ‘production rate’ sounds like it’s over time, and repeats ‘production'
22:50:06 <andythenorth> ‘productivity’ looks like a weird partial repeat of ‘production'
22:50:33 <Wolf01> I studied it some time ago, I think it should be efficacy
22:51:09 <supermop> efficacy is too niche of a word in english for many players to be familiar with
22:51:21 <supermop> its used mostly with phamcology
22:51:51 <Wolf01> Efficency is abused in italian too, used in place of efficacy
22:51:53 <andythenorth> ‘Waste: epic | some | none’
22:52:17 <andythenorth> ‘Activity: none | low | some | shitloads'
22:52:31 <frosch123> shitloads sounds good
22:52:38 <andythenorth> can’t let my kids play then :)
22:52:51 <andythenorth> ‘hive of activity'
22:53:44 <Wolf01> Activity: slug | turtle | horse | cheetah, so you make V happy because of slugs
22:54:02 <frosch123> V would reverse the order though
22:54:37 <Wolf01> Activity: slug | Slug | SLUG | SLUUUUUUUG!!
22:54:46 <andythenorth> Activity is not bad
23:00:17 <supermop> no computer for me for the next week
23:00:26 <andythenorth> maybe ‘efficiency’ is just the best
23:00:29 <andythenorth> supermop: buy a laptop :P
23:00:38 <supermop> i expect to see NRT in trunk when i return
23:01:03 <supermop> and a detailed labour report in each firs industry window
23:01:32 <supermop> have a good holiday all
23:03:01 <frosch123> oh, the "Nothing" actually works?
23:03:21 <frosch123> i did not bother to code that case
23:03:30 <frosch123> so it may be random
23:03:50 <frosch123> processor/compiler specific
23:06:31 <frosch123> the result of "1 << 255" is usually undefined
23:07:29 <DorpsGek> frosch123: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
23:08:46 <frosch123> oh, vicky 2 is already that old
23:10:04 * andythenorth never saw it before
23:10:56 <frosch123> the paradox grand strategy series consists of "crusader kings" - "europa universalis" - "victoria" - "hearts of iron"
23:11:13 <frosch123> eddi plays europa univalis 4 all the time
23:11:23 <frosch123> which i also consider the most interesting part of the series
23:11:42 <frosch123> but all of them have dozens of download extensions
23:13:46 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27707 trunk/src/newgrf_text.cpp (2016-12-23 23:13:38 +0100 )
23:13:47 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Make the result of NewGRF's CARGO_NAME string code reliably print 'Nothing', if an invalid type is provided.
23:14:00 <andythenorth> ‘Efficiency: zero, zilch, nada’
23:15:16 * andythenorth basically plays ottd, and javascript puzzle bobble :P
23:16:07 <andythenorth> also I should fix that flour mill :P
23:39:14 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
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