IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-12-11
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00:50:54 <Wolf01> I'm LMAO, and I always thought we had one of the worst services
00:56:10 <Eddi|zuHause> there's always some place that's worse...
00:56:50 <Eddi|zuHause> like... tansania... where "the train is late" means "if the train doesn't come today, it'll probably come tomorrow"
00:57:19 <Wolf01> Don't worry, we like to copy USA, Trenitalia is running very very fast towards Amtrak's problems
01:00:30 <Eddi|zuHause> well, a friend of mine once told me how they were in the military and were moving stuff by train, but they had such low priority, that they practically spent the whole day on some side track in the station, until there was a free space on the line
01:00:47 <Eddi|zuHause> so for a train journey that should take like 2 hours, they spent 2 days
01:02:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i think that was in pre-unification east germany, so the network was probably a lot more densely used than now
01:02:51 <Eddi|zuHause> since a lot higher fraction of transport was done by train
01:03:01 <Eddi|zuHause> both passenger and freight
01:03:38 <Wolf01> Now I hardly notice freight trains, ages ago there were a lot
01:04:15 <Eddi|zuHause> that's because of the quiet brakes :p
01:06:23 <Wolf01> Also no more gaps on rails :P
01:06:56 <Wolf01> (until they cut the rails to raise the bridge during floods)
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02:50:49 <sim-al2> Aren't they finally moving away from cast-iron brake blocks too?
02:51:22 <sim-al2> The US did beginning in the 60's, but they are still used in Europe
02:52:10 <sim-al2> Cast-iron gives good performance, but causes some irregularity in the wheel tread to develop, which creates a lot of noise
02:58:06 <Ethereal_Whisper> I just built a huge two-sided station :D
03:05:19 <Eddi|zuHause> there's still a little resistance to refitting the wagons with the silent brakes, but i'm pretty sure in 10-ish years nobody is going to remember how bad the old brakes were
03:06:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the current political approach is to raise the cost for reserving the track if you don't have the silent brakes
03:06:49 <Eddi|zuHause> in the hope the economy is sorting itself out over time
03:07:10 <Eddi|zuHause> approaches might vary across different european countries
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10:42:20 <andythenorth> where 2 cargos are produced, the text is misleading
10:42:29 <andythenorth> it always has been, but now it seems worse eh?
10:42:53 <andythenorth> it’s ‘3,000l and 3t produced per…delivered’
10:43:18 <andythenorth> but that is clunky, and there aren’t enough text stack registers to implement it anyway
10:46:58 <andythenorth> ‘6 units output per 8t nuts delivered’ also seems ugly
10:52:10 <andythenorth> ‘8t nuts produces 3,000l edible oil and 3t food’
10:52:40 <andythenorth> can’t be implemented, but is it better?
10:55:42 <Alberth> your two cargo productions are confusing with different source amounts
10:58:12 <Alberth> oh, right, for each output you specify the effect for each input
10:58:25 <andythenorth> the mechanic is good, the explanation is bad
10:58:40 <Alberth> sounds a bit bulky indeed :)
10:59:28 <Alberth> what exactly fails in the "8t nuts produces 3,000l edible oil and 3t food" idea ?
10:59:42 <Alberth> ie what is too much in that sentence?
11:00:08 <andythenorth> especially because I am adding some industries where output is not split 1:1
11:00:23 <andythenorth> so “8t iron ore produces 6t iron and 2t slag"
11:00:52 <andythenorth> but I can’t implement this using substrings or text stack
11:00:59 <andythenorth> text stack doesn’t have enough registers
11:01:24 <Alberth> that needs 6 registers, and you have less than 6?
11:01:54 <andythenorth> for 3 input cargos, it needs 9 registers
11:02:26 <andythenorth> and I can’t think of any tricks like packing more bytes into the words
11:03:17 * andythenorth checks the count is correct
11:03:29 <Alberth> ie you need more sentences
11:04:29 <andythenorth> why am I using all of a register to store 4 bytes?
11:04:36 <andythenorth> also why does it work :P
11:04:57 <andythenorth> says it needs 4 bytes?
11:05:18 <Alberth> not sure how you get 9 registers
11:05:24 <andythenorth> oh 4 bytes is a dword, nvm
11:05:51 * andythenorth keeps conflating nibbles and bytes
11:06:18 <andythenorth> 9? There are 3 cargos per line, 3 lines in the maximum case
11:06:23 <andythenorth> each cargo uses a register
11:08:57 <andythenorth> I could compose all the ‘8t of coal’ stuff in the compile
11:09:10 <andythenorth> but that would increase the number of translations
11:09:18 <andythenorth> would need a lower case version of every cargo, and all the units
11:09:26 <Alberth> yeah, and make translations more complicated
11:09:44 <andythenorth> and it wouldn’t respond to player unit settings
11:09:52 <andythenorth> unless I provided all those too
11:11:05 <Alberth> what if you split it in two parts, "factory takes Xt of Y, Zl of Q, or P sacks of V into production" and "it produces At of N, and Bl of M"
11:13:50 * andythenorth tries writing it out
11:14:35 <Alberth> unless the output amounts different between different input cargoes :p
11:15:48 <Alberth> so drop the precise specification?
11:17:26 <Alberth> tbh I never looked at it, although until now there wasn't much need either, as any input had the same effect
11:18:13 <andythenorth> wonder if there’s some other way to express it
11:18:30 <Alberth> hmm, not entirely true, I did look at what input cargo was the best
11:18:51 <andythenorth> I’ve often wondered if the industry could show what the current rate is
11:19:07 <andythenorth> i.e. do you have 1, 2 or 3 of the needed inputs in last 3 months
11:19:20 <Alberth> ECS outputs a lot of statistics
11:19:31 <andythenorth> just as numbers iirc
11:19:38 <Alberth> yeah, and no explanation what the numbers mean :)
11:19:58 <andythenorth> because the text stack doesn’t have enough registers for george I guess
11:20:26 <Alberth> is the number of input cargo the relevant property?
11:20:33 <andythenorth> it’s always ‘per 8t'
11:20:50 <Alberth> or the amount of "main" input cargo
11:21:07 <andythenorth> 1. ‘deliver coal, iron ore or limestone’
11:21:09 <Alberth> I like the idea of "number of used furnaces" in ECS
11:21:16 <andythenorth> 2. ‘deliver coal or limestone for a production boost’
11:21:23 <andythenorth> 3. ‘deliver limestone for a production boost'
11:22:30 <andythenorth> dunno, doesn’t guide on what’s the best cargo to provide
11:22:31 <Alberth> people find out soon enough :p
11:22:47 <andythenorth> but eh, the best strategy is *always* provide all cargos
11:23:03 <Alberth> I hardly ever do that :p
11:23:21 <andythenorth> I provide the one that gets most output per input :P
11:23:41 <andythenorth> based on the numbers in the industry extra text :P
11:23:44 <Alberth> not what BB says you should do? :)
11:24:31 <andythenorth> not in my last few games, but actually, yes
11:24:36 <andythenorth> whatever BB says :P
11:25:46 <Alberth> "cargo X improves production of cargo Y"
11:26:10 <Alberth> (for main influences only)
11:28:24 <Alberth> "other accepted cargoes also improve production"
11:29:42 <Alberth> will probably fail for cases where there is no obvious favorite
11:30:05 <Alberth> on the other hand, there is not much to say then, either :)
11:30:57 <Alberth> "shit comes out if you deliver other shit", as V would put it :p
11:32:33 <Alberth> "cargo X influences production of cargo Y" is a bit more specific
11:33:06 <Alberth> "positively correlates" :p
11:33:08 <andythenorth> I could express it as a ratio, unit independent
11:33:12 <andythenorth> no need for translation then
11:33:27 <andythenorth> but it’s maybe less accessible to players
11:33:42 <andythenorth> ‘Production per delivery’
11:34:09 <andythenorth> ‘Coal: 2/8’, ‘Iron Ore: 4/8’, ‘Stone: ‘2/8’
11:34:43 <Alberth> yeah, until slag output is different from cokes output or so
11:35:15 <andythenorth> I am reading it as ‘delivered cargo: ratio’
11:35:30 <andythenorth> without specifying how much of _each_ output you get
11:35:34 <Alberth> what that sentence says is "try to do Iron Ore first"
11:36:13 <andythenorth> ‘Each 8t pig iron requires 4t iron ore, 2t coal, 2t stone'
11:36:22 <Alberth> "Factory desires large amounts of Iron Ore"
11:37:24 <andythenorth> it’s very hard to explain the actual mechanic
11:37:38 <Alberth> "Factory favors large amounts of Iron Ore"
11:37:47 <andythenorth> because if you deliver all 3 inputs within 3 months, you get 8t out for every 8t in
11:38:00 <Alberth> so don't, I cannot change it, so it's irrelevant, mostly
11:38:48 <Alberth> "Full production can be reached by providing all 3 cargoes in 3 months"
11:39:05 <Alberth> "all cargoes in 3 months" even
11:39:58 <Alberth> I never care for actual amounts, I just add more trains until I have enough of them
11:40:23 <Alberth> If I need more output cargo, I insert more input cargo
11:40:40 <Alberth> I don't run calculations how much from where etc
11:42:48 <Alberth> you can move the details to the documentation
11:44:42 <Alberth> giving all the numbers makes people do precise calculations how much supplies to deliver
11:45:13 <Alberth> and you get requests like "there is no vehicle for delivering 21.35 units of supplies"
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11:52:43 <andythenorth> would be pretty trivial to do it in docs
11:53:02 <andythenorth> I think there’s _maybe_ more benefit in showing player ‘all needed cargos have been recently delivered’
11:53:20 <andythenorth> but then again, maybe not also :)
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11:54:44 <Alberth> basically your 'gung ho' indication :)
11:55:44 <andythenorth> can I just use same for secondary industries? o_O
11:55:52 <andythenorth> not all combine cargo, eh
11:55:56 <andythenorth> some just produce
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12:00:07 <andythenorth> only one string needed
12:00:15 <andythenorth> ‘Currently producing: 0t'
12:00:24 <andythenorth> ‘Currently producing: 2t per 8t delivered'
12:00:39 <andythenorth> and then increase it if more cargos are delivered
12:01:37 <Alberth> sort of "1 furnace in use" :)
12:02:13 <Wolf01> Are you able to produce 2 different things with the same secondary industry depending on what gets delivered? Like the steel mill produce (a lot more) slag when coal is provided, which also boosts production rate?
12:02:32 <andythenorth> I could code that, but I think it’s hard to explain :)
12:02:52 <Alberth> don't, players will soon figure it out :p
12:02:54 <andythenorth> if that’s needed for gameplay, it’s usually a sign that there should be another industry type
12:03:17 <Alberth> it sounds a bit like a different industry set
12:03:39 <Wolf01> I think explaining all isn't needed, you don't explain why you added coal to steel mill instead of processing just the iron ore
12:07:06 <andythenorth> so I’ll move the ratios to the docs, somewhere
12:07:11 <andythenorth> for people who really have to know that stuff
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12:24:57 <Alberth> well, as usual, you're free to ignore us :)
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12:49:09 <Wolf01> Mmmh, going to mod the shit out of transport fever
12:50:01 <Wolf01> And the concorde for 24 passengers :P
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12:59:25 <Alberth> it's realistic, there is room for about 12 passengers at each bus station, the remaining space is taken by other passengers that don't leave :)
13:01:18 <Alberth> ok, steam website just plain fails, can only see the thumbnails
13:07:40 <frosch123> roadvehicles caring about roadtypes
13:08:52 <Wolf01> Are you sure to start working on vehicles before finishing compatibility between roadtypes?
13:09:22 <frosch123> what is to finish there?
13:10:31 <Wolf01> Some subtypes shouldn't allow the other roadtype, crossings, rail crossings, houses
13:11:17 <Wolf01> I could work on that, seems easier than vehicles
13:13:34 <andythenorth> text stack is blah
13:41:53 * andythenorth has to do shopping and stuff
13:42:00 <andythenorth> I can make a vehicle grf later probably
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15:48:29 <Alberth> andy, galvanising plant, and electric arc furnace do look very similar in-game :)
15:58:50 <Wolf01> I think the comma after galvanising plant is wrong :P
16:03:29 <Wolf01> I'm not a fan of the Oxford comma, as I'm not always sure when to use it, but this case looks really funny with the wrong placed comma :D
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16:34:36 <lorran78> i have a question plz?
16:35:08 <lorran78> (est-ce qu'il y a des francais ici?)
16:37:37 <lorran78> i wanted to know if it's possible to change release date of trains in a grf because i wanted to have a lot of time to make grow my town and have already the trains (for example not year 1880 but year 1)
16:38:17 <frosch123> get the source of the grf, and change it
16:41:02 <frosch123> on the other hand, why do you care about the year?
16:41:14 <frosch123> enable "vehicles never expire" and start in year 2500
16:41:23 <frosch123> then you can freely choose which engines to build
16:44:04 <lorran78> sorry i was afk wait i read ur answer
16:45:06 <lorran78> hum i care about year because of buildings changind and i wanted to see the old one and finish my own transport system :)
16:45:24 <lorran78> and i don't like a lot monorail :)
16:51:53 <lorran78> i tried to decompile the opengrf+ but i didn't find the year release to change it and don't know how to recompile?
16:57:34 <Alberth> opengfx+trains source is available, can be compiled using nml
16:58:06 <Alberth> the point of "vehicles never expire" is that you keep all vehicles, ie no need to use monorail
16:59:57 <Alberth> even at 2500, you still have all vehicles that existed before
17:01:11 <lorran78> hum okay but the buildings will be modern i want to keep old building and see that changing :)
17:02:31 <lorran78> and i tried to use nml but i don't understand where and how to change release date of vehicules (even in hex i don't find the year ...)
17:04:20 <lorran78> but actually i prefer seeing the trains arriving on sale and change them so changing the year of release is my best choice
17:04:58 <lorran78> i can't find the name of trains neither in grf
17:07:51 <Alberth> nml can use hex numbers, but usually it's plain text
17:09:15 <Alberth> please change the name and the grfid if you change it, to avoid confusion
17:11:00 <lorran78> can u explain me all step to see if i make something wrong?
17:11:19 <lorran78> i downloaded the lastest version of ogfx-trains
17:11:45 <lorran78> hum sorry not the source wait :)
17:12:28 <Alberth> preprocessed source is likely the simplest, unless you have a linux system with the usual development tools at it
17:13:52 <lorran78> it's ok i took ogfx-trains-0.3.0-source.tar.gz
17:14:16 <Alberth> open the nml file with a text editor
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17:16:18 <Eddi|zuHause> lorran78: during the "make" process, the .pnml files are combined into an .nml file
17:16:20 <Alberth> oh, you have unprocessed source? that's ok too, but it needs more tools to build
17:16:54 <lorran78> ok i tried to understand all that :)
17:17:03 <Alberth> grfid : "OG+1"; <-- this line, in header.pnml in the unprocessed source
17:17:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the grfid can be any 4-letter string
17:18:11 <lorran78> OG+0 for me year 0 :p
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17:18:31 <Eddi|zuHause> the usual convention is to use your initials as the first two letters
17:19:22 <lorran78> then it's ok now i put 4 characters
17:20:20 <Alberth> never hurts to save it :)
17:20:22 <Wolf01> Mmmh, I think I should check also the already present roadtype for flags, and not only the one I'm placing :/
17:20:38 <Alberth> trains don't seem to have a new start year
17:20:46 <Alberth> let me look how to change that
17:22:31 <Alberth> you should have a similar section for each engine
17:23:21 <Alberth> add a introduction_date: date(yyyy, mm, dd) line in the properties
17:24:42 <Alberth> got the part of the file with such a section?
17:25:16 <Alberth> "uu37" <-- should be unique enough to find the section
17:26:38 <Wolf01> Is there a way to count road bits?
17:26:56 <Alberth> item(FEAT_TRAINS, uu37, 14) { that likely also works as search term
17:26:56 <lorran78> like that : item(FEAT_TRAINS, uu37, 14) { property { sprite_id: SPRITE_ID_NEW_TRAIN; // We have our own sprite misc_flags: bitmask(TRAIN_FLAG_FLIP) introduction_date: date(yyyy, mm, dd); } ENGINE_GRAPHICS_BLOCK(uu37_indepot) }
17:27:36 <Alberth> Wolf01: there is a count-number-of-set-bits in src/core/bitmath or so
17:28:01 <lorran78> i can use TAB in the file?
17:28:08 <Wolf01> I think it's safe to assume it's not a junction when bits are <=2
17:28:38 <Alberth> lorran78: yep, not insert "introduction_date: date(1500, 1, 1);" after "property {"
17:29:39 <lorran78> before property or after sorry i am not sure?
17:30:15 <Alberth> ie property { introduction_date: date(1500, 1, 1); sprite_id: ....
17:30:16 <lorran78> ur numbers are example?
17:30:22 <Wolf01> Nice, I can build junctions but not curves O_o
17:30:34 <lorran78> if i want of course :p
17:30:45 <Alberth> no idea, let's see what the properties page says :)
17:31:18 <Alberth> Valid range for yyyy is 0 ... 5000000. <-- take your valid year :)
17:31:45 <lorran78> i must put a ";" after all properties?
17:32:04 <Alberth> yes, it terminates a property
17:32:18 <lorran78> then i think it's okay now :)
17:32:27 <lorran78> yyyy for using 0 to 9999?
17:32:31 <Alberth> good, do you have the nml compiler?
17:32:45 <Alberth> (05:31:18 PM) Alberth: Valid range for yyyy is 0 ... 5000000. <-- take your valid year :)
17:33:12 <lorran78> oh okay if i start from year 0 i put 0 then?
17:34:05 <lorran78> i have this one : nml-0.4.4-windows-win32
17:34:49 <Alberth> year 0 sounds a bit early, but whatever you like :)
17:35:02 <lorran78> okay maybe it's a test for me now :p
17:35:31 <Alberth> at the command shell, run nmlc ogfxfile.nml
17:36:19 <Alberth> where "nmlc" is the nml compiler, and ogxfile.nml is the name of the opengfx+trains nml file that you just saved :)
17:37:22 <andythenorth> frosch123: so what’s best? A test grf in the nml fork? Or a branch of Road Hog with NRT support?
17:37:38 <Wolf01> Please, kill me with fire... I said n-bits <= 2 is not a junction, I was checking for <= 2 to be a junction :|
17:38:00 <andythenorth> Wolf01: devloloping :D
17:38:09 <Wolf01> Eh, lol is not enough here
17:38:11 <lorran78> i don't have ogxfile.nml (i save the header.pnml with my grfid and engine_uu37.pnml with this change
17:38:14 <frosch123> andythenorth: since we only have silly types like red and yellow, i guess something in the nml fork
17:38:29 <andythenorth> ok I’ll copy some sprites in there
17:38:52 <andythenorth> oh I’ll patch the existing example RV grf
17:39:08 <lorran78> too many questions in same place lol
17:40:51 <lorran78> i use ogfx-trains-0.3.0-source so if i understand good i must compile pnml to nml?
17:41:10 <Alberth> ah, you have unprocessed source
17:41:19 <andythenorth> usually a makefile does that
17:41:32 <Alberth> then you need make, and the c compiler too
17:42:48 <lorran78> maybe i'll use the processed source then :p
17:44:51 <Alberth> I'd hope that has a .nml file :)
17:45:48 <lorran78> i've done same in the processed source
17:46:16 <lorran78> hum don't seem to have nml neither :/
17:46:37 <lorran78> which c compiler dl?
17:47:03 <Alberth> gcc, normally, as it only does C pre-processing
17:47:38 <Alberth> *.pnml are collected into a .nml file, with the usual #include mechanism of C/C++
17:48:12 <Alberth> together with expanding the #define macros
17:48:35 <lorran78> where to download it?
17:50:13 <Sylf> that tutorial doesn't mention anything about compiling pnml using gnu make and gcc
17:50:45 <Sylf> which some people probably see as knowledge gap that's not covered
17:50:53 <Alberth> it doesn't indeed, although I would expect it to be written somewhere
17:51:49 <lorran78> oh sorry i see the nml !
17:51:55 <lorran78> it's not in source :p
17:52:18 <andythenorth> ok so frosch123 I need a roadtypetable, and road_type prop
17:52:25 <andythenorth> I won’t do any cb stuff yet
17:52:28 <Alberth> technically, the c pre-processing is not part of nml, it's just useful for larger projects
17:52:59 <Alberth> and not everybody uses it
17:53:02 * andythenorth thinks the c pre-processing is a bit of a misleading dead end, but eh, that’s just me :)
17:53:11 <andythenorth> it was useful to learn it, and useful to stop using it
17:53:12 <lorran78> i have the ogfx-trains.nml
17:53:32 <lorran78> i put the nml in the nml program wait
17:53:47 <andythenorth> nml needs some kind of string replacement using ${} type convention or similar, with a simple loop syntax
17:54:02 <andythenorth> and a global constants table maybe
17:54:35 <frosch123> Sylf: Alberthhttps://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/1706/NewGRF_development_guide_for_Windows_users_0.9.0.pdf <- there is also a full guide to install a vm for make and stuff
17:54:40 <frosch123> but it involes a lot of work
17:54:41 <andythenorth> actually /me has no idea what it needs, I have my own thing
17:54:41 <Alberth> I tried that, but something didn't work with that
17:55:20 <Alberth> ^ andy, about adding a pre-processor to nml
17:55:23 <Sylf> I've written my own guide on how to use cygwin to compile pnml :P
17:55:51 <andythenorth> the roadtypetable just makes it possible to refer to the labels as constants?
17:56:07 * andythenorth has never understood the railtype stuff, other people implemented it for me
17:56:38 <lorran78> something wrong when compiling
17:57:01 <lorran78> i put the nml in the source where folder src is
17:57:11 <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess you need a roadtypetable with ROAD and the other labels from the testgrf
17:57:18 <frosch123> and then the road_type property for the vehicle
17:57:27 <frosch123> mind, there are also tramtypetable and tram_type
17:57:40 <andythenorth> there’s some compatibility thing in the table eh? a list
17:57:47 * andythenorth will worry about that later
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17:57:57 <frosch123> compatibility is in the roadtype grf, not in the vehicle grf
17:58:00 <andythenorth> it’s funny implementing something I don’t understand :P
17:59:15 <andythenorth> oh the list is a name assignment
17:59:28 <frosch123> sounds familar, like extending yapf cache for roadtypes :)
18:00:46 <frosch123> oh, that's what you meant with junctions
18:01:02 <frosch123> i thought you only meant disallowing tram on certain roads
18:02:20 <Wolf01> That's another flag ;)
18:03:01 <Wolf01> For that I'm undecided if allowing only tram crossing or disallowing tram entirely
18:05:00 <Wolf01> Both are easy, for the first one I should just check if tram and road have at least one bit in common and then return error if true, for the second just check the flag
18:05:48 <Wolf01> This prototype is for freeways/highways
18:07:20 <andythenorth> frosch123: choking on ‘ROAD’ at L152
18:07:34 <andythenorth> unknown identifier, suggests my roadtypetable is not implemented correctly?
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18:07:55 <andythenorth> nah that’s a literal
18:08:21 <Wolf01> Or what was the right function name
18:08:24 <andythenorth> nah, it’s a constant
18:08:34 <andythenorth> the roadtypetable should make those constants available, afaik
18:09:00 <andythenorth> I implemented roadtypetable by copying railtypetable
18:09:05 <Wolf01> Maybe it collides with something else
18:09:15 <Wolf01> Does it work with RED_ or YELL=
18:11:08 <Alberth> frosch: very extensive manual :)
18:11:09 <Wolf01> Maybe it doesn't like custom types
18:11:31 <andythenorth> I just found some debug print handling, maybe I can use that
18:12:00 <frosch123> andythenorth: i would just compare with working train newgrf :)
18:12:30 <andythenorth> -s is a useful nml flag eh
18:13:09 <Alberth> if you can read a stack-dump :p
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18:13:48 <frosch123> andythenorth: global_constants.py: const_list is missing road and tram table
18:13:52 <andythenorth> I am trying to make debug_print() do something
18:18:12 <andythenorth> frosch123: I pushed, one of each truck for ROAD, BLUE, YELLOW
18:18:26 <andythenorth> available from 1926 eh
18:18:57 <Wolf01> Could I use {STRING1} in error messages?
18:20:44 <frosch123> iirc the commandcost also has dparams
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18:23:48 <Wolf01> I could write a generic error message, "... road type doesn't allow junctions"
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18:24:03 <frosch123> oh, it only has a newgrf text stack, how funny :)
18:25:21 <andythenorth> "text stack is everywhere”
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18:54:13 <Wolf01> Mmmh, how bad is it that building roads with drag&drop and disallowed junctions makes difficult to build curves?
18:54:38 <Wolf01> You need to stop in the right place with mouse or the last bit won't be built
18:55:38 <Wolf01> Maybe it's due to my habit of dragging roads and then remove superfluous bits
18:59:10 <Wolf01> Also, would trams get something good from this flag, or I'll keep it only for roads?
19:07:48 <andythenorth> what’s the flag do?
19:23:44 <lorran78> how to select language i have language error when using nml
19:30:22 <Alberth> from translated languages, I am guessing?
19:30:51 <Alberth> not relevant, it's just warnings
19:31:01 <Alberth> do you get a .grf file?
19:31:46 <lorran78> i have another error
19:32:09 <lorran78> [Knmlc ERROR: "src/header.pnml", line 10: Unknown string "STR_GRF_NAME"
19:32:43 <lorran78> ←[K nmlc warning: Default language file "lang\english.lng" doesn't exist ←[Knmlc ERROR: "src/header.pnml", line 10: Unknown string "STR_GRF_NAME" Included from: "ogfx-trains.pnml", line 8 (i have all this)
19:33:17 <lorran78> i put the nml in the nml program and pointed to the nml which is in the source folder
19:33:24 <lorran78> (i hope my english is ok :p)
19:33:32 <Alberth> yeah, nml expects a "lang" sub-directory with .lng files (language files)
19:34:04 <lorran78> i put the nml in the source folder and launch the nml program pointing it :)
19:34:22 <Alberth> you can tell nmlc where to look for the lang directory with a flag iirc
19:34:41 <Alberth> or you set it up such that a lang sub-directory exists :)
19:34:42 <lorran78> yes if i want french (there is one :p)
19:35:00 <lorran78> there is lang folder
19:35:17 <Alberth> it's a train newgrf, doesn't have much text :)
19:35:43 <lorran78> i think so but if i want to have french what cmd to had?
19:36:45 <Alberth> either create a lang folder (filled with lng files) in the directory where you run nmlc, or supply a flag
19:37:00 <Alberth> I don't know the name of the flag, try nmlc --help
19:38:03 <lorran78> when i put lang in nml program folder i had that error : ←[Knmlc ERROR: "lang\english.lng", line 2: Undefined command "VERSION"
19:38:39 <lorran78> and there is this line in the file : STR_GRF_NAME :OpenGFX+ Trains {VERSION}
19:39:04 <Eddi|zuHause> these should be filled in by the makefile at some point
19:39:05 <lorran78> i think {} is not ok?
19:39:45 <Eddi|zuHause> no, there's a "custom commands" file something
19:40:03 <Eddi|zuHause> and that should be filled by the makefile with the current revision number or whaterver
19:40:09 <Eddi|zuHause> whenever you type "make"
19:40:32 <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't use make, you need to do that manually
19:41:52 <lorran78> it pre-processing now
19:41:54 <Alberth> looking for the name of that file
19:42:02 <lorran78> same error for all language
19:42:37 <lorran78> no grf after processing or i don't know where it is?
19:42:51 <Alberth> do you have a custom_tags.txt file?
19:43:08 <lorran78> should i put nml program directly in the source folder ?
19:44:01 <lorran78> ←[Knmlc ERROR: Path "F:\_Mes Documents\_DL\____OpenTTD\nml-0.4.4-windows-win32\s rc" does not exist (even after case conversions)
19:44:20 <lorran78> i suppose i must create src folder?
19:44:37 <Eddi|zuHause> spurious soace inbetween "s rc"?
19:45:46 <Alberth> I just invented a few names, feel free to change :)
19:45:51 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Commit by translators :: r27692 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2016-12-11 19:45:39 +0100 )
19:45:52 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: -Update from Eints:
19:45:53 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: croatian: 25 changes by VoyagerOne
19:45:54 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: english (us): 2 changes by Supercheese
19:45:55 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: russian: 1 change by Lone_Wolf
19:46:32 <Alberth> always love that, instead of listing the last file too, it says (...) :)
19:47:37 <lorran78> where do i put these line?
19:48:34 <Alberth> yeah, it should be included in the processed source, but apparently it's missing, so make a new one
19:49:12 <Alberth> clearly nobody ever tried to build a version from the prcoessed source text :p
19:49:51 <lorran78> where did i put the file?
19:50:06 <Alberth> in the directory where you run nmlc
19:50:25 <Alberth> ie next to the 'lang' folder if you don't use a flag
19:52:45 <lorran78> it's always so long?
19:53:02 <lorran78> error : ←[Knmlc ERROR: Path "F:\_Mes Documents\_DL\____OpenTTD\nml-0.4.4-windows-win32\s rc" does not exist (even after case conversions)
19:54:43 <Alberth> probably looks for image files
19:54:51 <lorran78> folder gfx missing :p
19:55:41 <Alberth> the nml file is large :)
19:56:24 <Alberth> oh, not that bad, just 500K
19:56:33 <Alberth> .grf is much worse :p
19:56:56 <lorran78> i found the command to choose language but i am not sure :/
19:56:59 <Alberth> 45M, and that's an old version
19:57:21 <lorran78> hum it will be long !!!!!!!!
19:57:37 <Alberth> .grf has all languages, you can choose language in OpenTTD
20:01:26 <lorran78> okay i wanted to know if there is a url to explain how to make best profit with train
20:01:48 <lorran78> bad english i am searching how to ask :p
20:02:00 <lorran78> lost by good english :/
20:02:21 <Alberth> you make loads of money very soon, in OpenTTTD
20:02:22 <lorran78> long time no chat :p
20:02:44 <lorran78> i used to play old tycoon
20:02:53 <lorran78> i always have my old saves !!
20:02:59 <Alberth> not to mention the zillion other chats at IRC :)
20:03:21 <lorran78> it's easier to earn money in openttd?
20:04:08 <Alberth> it has a few more easy ways than tycoon had :)
20:04:37 <lorran78> oh yes another question !
20:04:48 <Alberth> playing larger maps does a lot
20:05:01 <lorran78> is there a grf to make industries never close?
20:05:13 <lorran78> or better to close when we want :p
20:05:34 <lorran78> i found one to do this but somekind bug :/
20:06:23 <Alberth> you can check out opengfx+industries, it may have a few settings, maybe it has a way to disable closing
20:06:42 <Alberth> otherwise you can use a different industry set, for example FIRS
20:07:25 <Alberth> but tbh, I hardly ever have an industry closing on me, give it good service, and it will stay in business, in general
20:07:46 <Alberth> ie station rating at or above 67% or so
20:08:01 <lorran78> i read that somewhere yes :p
20:08:20 <lorran78> but you never have time to make all industries before it's closing :p
20:08:41 <Alberth> that's not a problem, new industries will appear instead
20:09:49 <lorran78> another question fun maybe :p
20:10:06 <lorran78> is there a way to make a tile where no industries can grow?
20:10:22 <lorran78> to define where we want to see industries (far away from town :p)
20:10:51 <FLHerne> lorran78: There's a tool to buy land (in the landscaping toolbar)
20:11:02 <FLHerne> But it's not very useful for your purpose
20:11:24 <Alberth> some industries are specifically constrained to only pop up in towns.
20:11:54 <Alberth> but it's a newgrf thing that you can change (no idea how though)
20:12:22 <Alberth> mostly to deliver town goods
20:12:54 <lorran78> hum and when the compiling is done how would i define a new introduction date for train?
20:13:04 <lorran78> vehicule not only train
20:13:50 <Alberth> add "introduction_date: date(...);" to every engine
20:14:08 <Alberth> if you want other vehicles, you need other newgrfs
20:14:56 <Alberth> if you can settle for a little earlier, like 1800 or so, there are more newgrfs available
20:15:02 <lorran78> i don't need more i think but in every engine ? explain more?
20:15:26 <Alberth> you added that text to the uu37 engine now (I think)
20:15:49 <lorran78> (i understand now :p)
20:15:56 <Alberth> if you want any other engine, that engine also needs a different introduction date
20:16:05 <lorran78> i'll test uu37 then i will add other :p
20:16:35 <lorran78> but then where are the real(actual) introduction date write?
20:16:35 <Alberth> and you want to set the "vehicles never expire" flag in your openttd.cfg file, before you start
20:17:25 <Alberth> but then where are the real(actual) introduction date write? <-- I don't understand that question
20:18:01 <Alberth> introduction_date: date(1, 1, 1); is the real introduction date (except for some randomization by OpenTTD)
20:18:13 <Alberth> ie year 1, Januari 1st
20:18:52 <Alberth> ie you write it literally in the grf file
20:18:55 <lorran78> all vehicule has a introduction date in the original version of opengfx+ trains but we can't find it? where is it written?
20:19:18 <Alberth> it's the same as the default game
20:20:00 <Alberth> it's in a table in the OpenTTD source code somewhere
20:21:51 <lorran78> i go test a game i'll be back :p
20:24:53 <lorran78> hum no train on year 1 :/ i check if i've done all :p
20:26:07 <Alberth> you loaded the correct newgrf?
20:26:22 <Alberth> and started a new game?
20:27:02 <Alberth> did you get a warning that you had to wait for 1900 or so years at game start?
20:27:28 <supermop> i cant think of anything else to get my dad so i am making him a tiny cooling tower
20:27:51 <lorran78> yes started new game
20:29:21 <lorran78> what is that warning?
20:30:02 <Alberth> try starting a game in 1500 without newgrfs :)
20:30:30 <Alberth> it says something like "there won't be vehicles in another xx years"
20:31:05 <Alberth> but that is not the case now, so apparently there is some vehicle in your start year
20:31:17 <lorran78> i have no warning without grf
20:32:06 <lorran78> i really don't have vehicules lol
20:33:46 <lorran78> tried another time to run game and new game and no warning :p
20:36:49 <Alberth> hmm, maybe I am going mad :p
20:38:24 <lorran78> i never saw that warning since i discover openttd
20:39:18 <lorran78> and what if there is no nml file?
20:41:02 <Alberth> I hope you are very good at reading hex numbers then :)
20:41:44 <Alberth> there is grfcodec for decoding and encoding grf files, but it speaks hex numbers, basically
20:44:21 <lorran78> i already tried grfcodec and i am not that good :(
20:44:30 <lorran78> but there is no other way?
20:44:39 <Alberth> another option is to make your own newgrfs
20:45:22 <Alberth> do the tutorial of nml, it explains how to code a vehicle
20:45:56 <Alberth> while normally, you also have your own graphics, it's not actually required, you can use the graphics of the default vehicles
20:46:41 <Alberth> I think by simply not stating your own graphics, but not sure
20:47:44 <Alberth> if you use the GPL license, you can find a lot of graphics that you can use
20:48:45 <Alberth> that of course means you have to publish your source, if you publish the grf
20:49:02 <lorran78> wait baby time lol :p
21:02:28 <Wolf01> I'm defeated... tetris with lego boxes again
21:03:23 <Wolf01> Also now I migrated all the 9 mixels series into a single amazon big box
21:04:26 <Eddi|zuHause> is that english you are speaking? i don't understand a word
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21:22:27 <andythenorth> Alberth: I get that quite a lot :)
21:27:47 <andythenorth> Wolf01: trams get nothing from disallow junctions, but eh, is it easier to have common spec?
21:28:05 <andythenorth> also if junctions are disallowed…how do you do junctions? o_O
21:28:50 <Wolf01> You end up with a straight road to another roadtype
21:29:31 <Eddi|zuHause> how do you build highway onramps if the highway roadype disallows junctions?
21:29:58 <Wolf01> I could review it to disallow junctions with other roadtypes, but that's exploitable to build unwanted junctions
21:30:34 <andythenorth> you have to build an occasional junction tile from other type eh?
21:30:49 <Wolf01> If you want to build an intersection with a highway, you can always build it as normal road
21:31:39 <andythenorth> is there a disallow crossings flag?
21:31:54 <andythenorth> preventing railroad crossings might be a thing
21:32:42 <Wolf01> We could put some different flags to define all the wanted behaviours of the roadtype
21:34:13 <Wolf01> And if stars and planets will align, provided graphics and state machines, we could have proper highway ramps, highway gates, highways where faster vehicles could overtake
21:36:26 <andythenorth> how hard can it be eh? o_O
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21:49:48 <Wolf01> I'm going to make ottd explode again
21:53:08 <Wolf01> Mmmh, expand town in scenario editor disapoints me
22:03:58 <Wolf01> CmdExpandTown how does it work? I got that makes new roads, expands the town radius and increments the houses cache, but where does it effectively builds the houses? O_O
22:27:08 <Alberth> lots of random walking very quickly in the next loops?
22:28:22 <Alberth> there is probably a counter that increments or decrements to the next walk
22:28:46 <Alberth> just set it to some high or low number, and regular tile loop does the rest?
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22:31:42 <Wolf01> static const TileIndexDiffC tiles[] = { {0, 1}, {1, 0}, {0, -1}, {-1, 0} }; I'm checking the wrong tiles?, or not enough tiles?
22:32:20 <Wolf01> __ln__, iirc even google did something like that
22:36:04 <__ln__> first customization i've seen in spotify though
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22:38:23 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: i don't think i see what you're seeing
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22:42:48 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: in your spotify you always have a light saber?
22:47:01 <Wolf01> Yeah, no more towns along tram routes
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23:25:20 <lorran78> i noticed that even if i change data in my pnml file when i compile with nml i always have the same grf file...
23:26:30 <Eddi|zuHause> then you forgot a step
23:27:21 <lorran78> i'll resume what i do tell me if something wrong
23:27:39 <Eddi|zuHause> if you change a pnml file, you need to rerun the preprocessing step to get a new nml file, then call nmlc again on that new nml file
23:28:02 <Eddi|zuHause> (make should do this automatically, unless the makefile is missing dependencies)
23:28:25 <lorran78> if i see the step "preprocessing" with nml then it's ok?
23:28:37 <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, probably not
23:29:19 <lorran78> i have nml program and source of my modified grf in the same place is it ok?
23:29:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what you see
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23:29:48 <lorran78> the second time i compile it's faster
23:29:53 <glx> maybe nml doesn't depend on pnml in makefile
23:29:54 <lorran78> it's the cache i suppose
23:30:09 <lorran78> how can i check that?
23:30:35 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, nml caches images, so it doesn't need to run them again if you only change text
23:30:57 <Eddi|zuHause> lorran78: please tell us which commands you run and what their output is
23:31:09 <Eddi|zuHause> (put on paste.openttdcoop.org)
23:33:25 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: no, i'm just having a hard time identifying that as a lightsabre
23:34:54 <lorran78> i have problem to copy from my dos windows :/
23:35:26 <Eddi|zuHause> rightclick->select?
23:35:42 <Eddi|zuHause> windows was always a bit weird with that
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23:39:40 <Wolf01> As shit happens always, how do I sync a local branch with master without losing all the edits?
23:53:17 <lorran78> Ya un francais ici par hasard? :p
23:53:34 <Eddi|zuHause> lorran78: sorry, i wasn't paying attention for a minute
23:53:48 <Eddi|zuHause> lorran78: yeah, you're not doing the preprocessing
23:54:12 <Eddi|zuHause> lorran78: you should install mingw (if you haven't already), and use the "make" program
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