IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-12-01
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01:38:18 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: oh, also nice is a "Weltraumbahnhof", even though there aren't actually any rails into space :/
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14:34:06 <andythenorth> tried ‘not depression’?
14:34:20 <andythenorth> of the two options, ‘not’ is better
14:34:45 <Wolf01> Money = not depression, not money = depression
14:35:16 <andythenorth> money = spending power = sense of autonomy, ability to meet needs
14:35:19 <andythenorth> can’t eat money :)
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14:54:49 <goodger> Wolf01: can confirm that money != not depression
14:57:17 <Wolf01> You have a bf/gf? You have close friends? You don't have to deal with continuous harassment by your own country? You still have pets? At least I have some spare money, but I don't want to spend it because things can go even worse
14:58:17 <Wolf01> Also, do you still have space in your room to put lego?
15:00:05 <goodger> I have five years of cohabitation with what is essentially my husband, several friends, my country of birth is a hair's breadth away from going fascist, I have no pets, and theoretically there is space in here for lego, but I haven't tried
15:00:51 <Wolf01> Then it does seem that your life is fairly better than mine
15:01:11 <goodger> and yet still depression
15:03:18 <Wolf01> Did you got it diagnosed? I was cured once, so I know what it is
15:05:16 <Wolf01> And I'm actively trying to get rid of it, but now that winter is coming it bites even more
15:07:29 <Wolf01> I found that a constant supply of new things is enough to keep me happy in these times, but I don't have a constant money balance
15:10:54 <Wolf01> Eh... I could sell some books
15:12:28 <Wolf01> I still have a lot of sets still MISB (sealed)
15:12:47 <Wolf01> Which I really want to build, but no space to put them
15:12:50 <Alberth> hmm, taking up space and you can't even play with it
15:14:20 <Wolf01> I need to get rid of at least 6 amazon big boxes filled with lego sealed boxes or built models
15:15:10 <andythenorth> I keep considering selling more Lego
15:15:20 <andythenorth> we sold some City stuff
15:15:47 <andythenorth> I have hoarded rare technic parts also
15:19:18 <andythenorth> should maybe sell those
15:20:46 <Wolf01> But 25kg of loose lego is waiting for me at a friend's home, because we decided to purchase some to split up
15:26:19 <goodger> Wolf01: yes, I have, I see a psychiatrist every month and I'm on four medications
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15:42:05 <Wolf01> Speaking of happier things, how's NRT?? What do we need now?
15:42:55 <Wolf01> I should leave a note to myself to fix editor
15:51:36 <andythenorth> I don’t know what’s next on NRT
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16:15:12 <supermop> bought a monitor last night, still no computer tho
16:15:30 <Alberth> at least you have something to look at :)
16:15:37 <supermop> three phones ago i had a phone with mini hdmi out
16:16:14 <supermop> maybe ill dig that up and connect it to the monitor and then pair a bluetooth mouse and keyboard to it
16:16:20 <Alberth> get the shoe box out!
16:17:13 <Alberth> would seem a bit silly though, a phone connected to a large monitor
16:22:25 <supermop> esp a phone from 2011
16:25:17 <Alberth> oh, that's very recent :p
16:26:52 <supermop> it was replaced when i moved to australia because it didn't work very well in 2014...
16:28:14 <supermop> so i don't know if it will quite work as a desktop replacement in late 2016
16:33:51 <Alberth> a monitor dedicated to the #openttd channel seems like a good idea
16:34:18 <Alberth> I hope it meets the minimal 28" size requirements
16:39:42 <supermop> use monitor and phone as a dedicated read only #openttd appliance
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17:36:29 <supermop> andythenorth: opioids for steeltown economy
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18:23:37 <andythenorth> supermop: playing Steeltown? o_O
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18:32:23 <supermop> andythenorth: reading about opioid treatment in rustbelt
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20:05:11 <andythenorth> works ok, in a first-time-played test game
20:05:30 <andythenorth> ENSP and SESP are hard to get
20:05:57 <andythenorth> I have one shipyard with low output, and no ENSP at all
20:08:11 <frosch123> is that a good thing?
20:08:40 <andythenorth> it gives an obvious focus
20:08:56 <andythenorth> but the number of industries needing ENSP, and the amount I can produce are quite far apart
20:09:19 <andythenorth> - it’s fine do nothing
20:09:27 <andythenorth> - add forest->lumber->ensp chain
20:09:40 <andythenorth> - add supply yard, accepting building materials -> ensp
20:11:08 <frosch123> could the pipe mill produce ensp?
20:11:29 <frosch123> water/air/stuff in mines
20:12:55 <andythenorth> can’t remember why I removed ‘PIPE’
20:12:59 <andythenorth> maybe it was just one cargo too many
20:13:22 <frosch123> no, it was because building materials already contained pipes
20:13:46 <frosch123> you found pipes on the builders yard or something
20:15:08 <andythenorth> ach why is chrome search so crap :P
20:15:32 <andythenorth> oh pipe messed up the graphviz layouts :)
20:15:41 <andythenorth> it’s an ‘interesting’ reason to remove it as a cargo :D
20:15:59 <frosch123> nah, it was because of building material
20:16:10 <frosch123> you cannot have nickel and base metals in the same economy
20:16:16 <frosch123> because nickel is part of base metals
20:16:25 <frosch123> do you cannot have pipe and building materials
20:16:40 <frosch123> vehicles draw pipes and stuff when they have building materials loaded
20:16:53 <andythenorth> can have in same economy if there’s a converter industry, but iff
20:17:57 <andythenorth> might be an accident that pipe mill doesn’t have ensp
20:18:13 <andythenorth> logs suggest it was intended
20:21:23 <supermop> make some industries accept bdmt instead of ensp?
20:22:11 <andythenorth> every so often I consider that
20:22:14 <andythenorth> then I reject it
20:22:23 <andythenorth> the ENSP / FMSP thing is now pretty entrenched
20:22:34 <andythenorth> it’s a useful design constraint
20:22:40 <frosch123> yeah, players know what "supplies" means :)
20:22:45 <andythenorth> solid constraints are very valuable
20:22:53 <andythenorth> otherwise choices have no meaning
20:22:56 <supermop> industry needs bdmt to expand?
20:23:19 <andythenorth> might be valid, but it’s a new mechanic
20:23:34 <andythenorth> I don’t hate the idea, but it doesn’t fit FIRS I think
20:24:02 <supermop> somewhere for all those ibeams and precast concrete to go
20:25:15 <andythenorth> bdmt -> supply yard -> ensp
20:25:38 <andythenorth> one unfinished steel chain has 12 primary source currently :P
20:26:11 <supermop> whats at the other end?
20:32:07 <andythenorth> so far, some galvanised steel
20:32:13 <andythenorth> and some marine supplies
20:32:35 <andythenorth> it’s definitely not suitable for a simple ‘connect all industries’ game :)
20:33:05 <andythenorth> might play quite well with silicon valley, with the right industries
20:33:41 <andythenorth> ‘building materials’ ;D
20:36:14 <andythenorth> frosch123: know of any reason station refit order couldn’t offer choice of subtypes? o_O
20:36:18 <andythenorth> other than ‘UI would suck’
20:36:24 <andythenorth> and ‘nobody wanted to do it’
20:36:49 <supermop> i think you need to separate bdmt into every minuscule subtype
20:37:16 <supermop> "you delivered enough floorboards but not enough nails: town is not growing"
20:37:34 <andythenorth> urban economy eh?
20:37:45 <andythenorth> cement, coffee, flowers, furniture
20:38:11 <frosch123> andythenorth: because subtypes depend on vehicle types, and there is no consistent way to store that in savegames
20:38:13 <supermop> "you delivered too many nails. the hardware stores went broke paying to store them: town is not growing"
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20:38:51 <andythenorth> frosch123: and so refitting in depot has no need to store anything?
20:39:01 <andythenorth> because it’s not an order
20:39:21 <supermop> "you delivered air jordans but town wants Yeezeys: town is not growing"
20:39:30 <frosch123> manual refit only affects a single vehicle
20:39:45 <frosch123> ordered refit affects any vehicles, esp. when autoreplace is involved
20:40:35 <frosch123> you could try it with template based consist replacement
20:42:18 <supermop> "you delivered 100 British racing green cars, only one buyer wanted lime, 99 wanted forest green: town is not growing"
20:42:33 <andythenorth> we have template based consist replacement? o_O
20:43:06 <andythenorth> ach, yes, the subtype potentially varies completely by vehicle, I should know that as newgrf author :P
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20:51:07 <supermop> is there a steeltown for testing on dev zone?
20:53:41 <andythenorth> I’ve also been updating IH and RH and CHIPS with cargo support
20:53:56 <andythenorth> although that’s not essential
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21:07:13 <andythenorth> anyone got any bright ideas for ship capacity?
21:07:27 <andythenorth> it’s hard to get it ‘just right’, unlike trains and RVs
21:10:23 <Rubidium> why not make capacity refits where the running costs are scaled by the capacity. Then the ships can have the right capacity for many playing styles
21:10:46 <frosch123> capacity could equal 4, 6 and 8 tile trains
21:11:14 <andythenorth> capacity refits are…out
21:11:23 <andythenorth> because they can’t be used with station refit orders :)
21:11:26 <Rubidium> so one person says... okay 200 tons of X is for a small ship, 2000 for a large ship whereas someone else might say... well 50 tons is a small ship and 200 tons are huge
21:11:40 <frosch123> andythenorth: you can still use station refits
21:11:41 <andythenorth> I have capacity parameter however
21:11:45 <frosch123> just the subtype cannot change
21:12:31 <frosch123> a station refit from coal (medium) to iore (medium) works
21:12:59 <frosch123> you just need to make sure that all compatible cargos have the same subtypes (same strings)
21:13:16 <andythenorth> but I only use station refits in my game, and I’m making the grf :P ;)
21:13:51 <frosch123> oh, i remember, for andy station refits means to purchase a vehicle and just send it to the station
21:14:19 <andythenorth> that’s not scalable across different vehicle types with cargo subtypes
21:15:22 <andythenorth> there was some request for ‘build already refitted’ recently
21:16:36 <frosch123> it exists in patches
21:16:57 <frosch123> but users will complain that the preview capacity is incorrect :)
21:17:09 <frosch123> yet another case for template based consist purchase :p
21:17:22 <frosch123> not sure whether the template patch also does that
21:17:44 * andythenorth wonders about ships with holds
21:17:50 <andythenorth> and other ideas rejected many times over
21:18:46 <andythenorth> IRL, if a buyer has 3000t of grain, and the easiest charter is a 5000t ship
21:18:50 <andythenorth> they don’t fill every hold full
21:19:17 <andythenorth> ho, % full load would do it :P
21:19:23 <supermop> if its a charter, they would sell the other capacity
21:19:30 <andythenorth> only if there’s a buyer on hand
21:19:36 <andythenorth> small coastal shipping, might not be
21:19:41 <andythenorth> as if IRL matters anyway :)
21:20:16 <supermop> probably not worth waiting to find someone to take the other 2000t for the same route
21:20:26 <andythenorth> % full load, with a crazy overload option
21:21:09 <supermop> thats sort of the whole point of containerization and palatalization, before the ship just had to do what the customer wanted
21:21:28 <andythenorth> > 100% full load, increased chance of new ‘ship sank’ disaster
21:21:34 <supermop> even if it meant wasting capacity
21:21:45 <supermop> or 'containers fell off'
21:21:55 <andythenorth> ‘cargo fell overboard'
21:21:59 <supermop> 'legos wash up on english beaches'
21:25:59 <Eddi|zuHause> "the front fell off"?
21:27:26 <frosch123> lego should be bulk cargo
21:31:52 <andythenorth> countable or uncountable?
21:33:51 <andythenorth> what about an order type restricted to ships, specifying amount of cargo to load :P
21:34:04 <andythenorth> [UI to enter a number]
21:34:18 <andythenorth> and there’s only one size of ship :P
21:34:20 <frosch123> i am wondering how trams should behave when encountering an incompatible tram type
21:34:48 <frosch123> i think they should just revert, even though tram can usually not revert on full tile end
21:35:01 <andythenorth> they can if you hit ‘turn around’ enough times
21:35:10 <andythenorth> I can never figure out under what conditions that works
21:35:54 <supermop> andythenorth: click 3 times quickly
21:36:09 <supermop> unless its stuck at a dead end
21:36:12 <frosch123> but there is specific code to decide whether one could build tram track on the next tile for unstucking
21:38:23 <andythenorth> seems over-thought
21:38:37 <andythenorth> there’s no gain to punishing player?
21:38:44 <andythenorth> maybe there is, if they don’t build routes properly
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21:42:16 <supermop> the game should be an exercise in misery
21:42:58 <supermop> the news should randomly pop up saying that your employees dislike you personally
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