IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-11-17
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11:48:26 <Wolf01> Not sure if it's me or is impossible to align the first line of text to right in a table cell in word O_o
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12:39:56 <andythenorth> is ‘moomins’ a valid cargo for arctic?
12:57:07 <peter1138> would they not just be passengers?
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13:19:32 <Eddi|zuHause> ... was about to say something about meeples
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15:30:08 <andythenorth> first and second class moomins
15:30:19 <andythenorth> moomins used to weird me out when I was small
15:30:27 <andythenorth> but when I read it to my kids this year, it’s great
15:39:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure the term "moomin" is actually racist
15:40:19 <goodger> the 1990 anime utterly terrified me
15:43:47 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause got a reference? :)
15:44:07 <Eddi|zuHause> bah... facts are so last year...
15:46:32 <goodger> I think we've heard enough from so-called experts
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16:15:09 <supermop> maybe i should get a spotify account
16:15:40 <supermop> unless there is an openttd podcast that releases a 90 minute episode every weekday
16:23:55 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean like a twitch stream?
16:28:05 <supermop> or like two people rambling about the game endlessly
16:32:51 <supermop> something to listen to while working
16:43:03 <supermop> andy and wolf talking about lego tecnic for an hour would suffice
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17:06:35 <Wolf01> What should be better? Not touching m4 in MakeRoadNormal or restore m4 after?
17:18:55 <Wolf01> Mmmh, the problem occur only with the normal road, which sets the tram bits
17:25:56 <Alberth> not touching is much simpler to understand
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17:27:01 <Wolf01> It seem to remove the roadtype anyway, blue road -> roadstop -> remove roadstop -> normal road
17:27:20 <Wolf01> If I restore the roadtype I get blue road again
17:27:56 <Wolf01> BTW, normal road seem to have weird effects
17:28:47 <Wolf01> Normal road is "0" so it's confusing when there is no road or normal road
17:29:08 <Wolf01> As m4 = 0 is not a "reset"
17:30:01 <Wolf01> With all the other combinations it works, but with normal road/tram screws up
17:31:04 <Wolf01> For example, if I build a tram station on normal road, I lose the road as 0 + tram is tram
17:31:19 <Wolf01> Even if m5 bits are set O_o
17:39:30 <Wolf01> I changed the HarRoadTypeRoad/Tram functions to avoid recursion in RoadTypeIdentifiers, maybe I did something wrong
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19:26:28 <Alberth> frosch123: while working on the terkhen scenario data format, I wondered if we can actually rebuild industries (and possibly other newgrf controlled instances too). I would think a newgrf could check for conditions, such as nearby other industry or so, which at the time of recreating the scenario, may not exist. Don't we run the risk that the newgrf refuses to create an industry?
19:26:55 <Alberth> If so, doesn't that imply that the scenario format is not going to fly?
19:27:25 <Alberth> At least I don't see how to fix something like that
19:29:28 <frosch123> firs farm clusters are such an example :)
19:30:23 <frosch123> anyway, does the scenario format reference explicit industry types?
19:30:25 <Alberth> you can continue trying until it succeeds, which in some cases would work
19:30:47 <frosch123> actually, there is a flag "build in scenario editor"
19:30:59 <frosch123> which should ignore the weird restrictions
19:31:15 <frosch123> if the grf refuses the be build in scenario editor, well, then bad luck :)
19:31:16 <Alberth> current format doesn't do indutries afaik
19:31:35 <Alberth> it's a "future extension" :)
19:31:40 <frosch123> so, if you want to position specific industry types, i would go for the "scenario editor flag"
19:31:54 <Alberth> yeah, that should work
19:32:00 <frosch123> that will still fail if the slope does not fit etc. but otherwise it's the best there is
19:32:39 <Alberth> if you copy the position from the scenario editor, the slope will likely work :)
19:33:05 <Alberth> I am not that worried that info from 3rd party tools doesn't work
19:33:26 <Alberth> but if you have made a scenario, you'd really like to have round-trip working
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19:34:02 <Alberth> nothing here, it's safe to go to sleep again
19:34:31 <frosch123> are you only awake or did you awoke?
19:35:00 <Alberth> he heard people discuss at the Internet :p
19:35:32 <Alberth> well ok, frosch123, your idea should be sufficient at first, thanks
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20:05:08 <andythenorth> I should draw some NRT stuff?
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20:07:59 <frosch123> drive-in-stop overlay?
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20:12:22 <frosch123> but i have no idea how fixed that shape is
20:12:30 <frosch123> i.e. how it looks in other basesets
20:13:27 <andythenorth> I’m going to assume it’s fixed
20:13:38 <andythenorth> it has to match the state machine at least
20:13:49 <andythenorth> we need the shape with or without pavements?
20:16:51 <frosch123> without pavement, same as for the other roads
20:17:01 <andythenorth> ok I’ll clip that off
20:17:05 <frosch123> original baseset looks very similar
20:21:04 <andythenorth> ok, they’re not very logical shapes w.r.t to pixels used
20:21:10 <andythenorth> I am going to overlook that for now
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20:28:43 <andythenorth> frosch123: I’ve pushed sprites for them in red, yellow and blue roads
20:28:59 <andythenorth> dunno which sprites they correspond to, so I didn’t edit the nml yet
20:38:40 <andythenorth> supermop: oats for arctic? o_O
20:38:46 <andythenorth> or more generic, grain, which already exists :P
20:39:11 <supermop> oats not exclusively cold enough?
20:39:28 <supermop> i think rye is better as a cold climate grain
20:39:28 <andythenorth> apparently the finest oats are swedish
20:39:37 <andythenorth> the long summer days make them grow up high
20:39:40 <supermop> unless you want oats -> livestock feed
20:39:53 <andythenorth> but IRL oats are a much bigger crop
20:40:18 <supermop> how will oats be different from grain in game?
20:40:39 <supermop> unless as stock feed
20:40:45 <andythenorth> it might just be grain
20:40:54 <supermop> stockfeed could work
20:41:01 <andythenorth> I’m only adding it because farm -> food is a bit dull
20:41:03 <frosch123> how about maple sirup?
20:41:11 <supermop> farm -> fmsp -> farm
20:41:11 <andythenorth> maple syrup refinery
20:41:15 <frosch123> or is canadian not artic?
20:41:22 <andythenorth> it was scandinavia
20:41:26 <andythenorth> now I might just be making it up
20:41:32 <andythenorth> ‘northern stuff'
20:41:47 <supermop> rename current arctic to scandinavian basic
20:41:56 <andythenorth> that is…controversial
20:42:03 <andythenorth> I have some problems with players
20:42:18 <andythenorth> if it was called ‘reduced Finland’ it might be ok
20:42:20 <frosch123> supermop: then all the scanadians nerds complain abuot the fish economy on the forums
20:42:52 <andythenorth> it was made with Kyosuke who is Finnish
20:43:19 <supermop> scandinavia/ boreal canadan / alaska / Kamchatka / siberia are all too different to homogenize to anyone's satisfaction
20:43:48 <andythenorth> I figure just make cargos that look nice
20:43:57 <andythenorth> or use a wide range of wagons
20:44:25 <andythenorth> Sulfur = tank wagons
20:44:37 <andythenorth> ENSP, FMSP = supply wagons
20:44:43 <andythenorth> Food = refrigerated wagons
20:44:49 <andythenorth> Goods = box wagons
20:45:00 <andythenorth> Paper = flatbed with paper
20:45:09 <andythenorth> pyrite = hoppers
20:45:14 <andythenorth> wood = flatbed with logs
20:45:40 <andythenorth> alcohol = edibles tanker
20:45:48 <andythenorth> fish = fishing boat
20:45:57 <andythenorth> MNSP = blah blah blah
20:46:07 <andythenorth> explosives = ??? armoured mail van?
20:46:16 <andythenorth> potash = covered hopper
20:46:23 <andythenorth> fertiliser = covered hopper
20:46:35 <Alberth> you don't want heavy armour around explosives :p
20:46:44 <andythenorth> lumber = flat bed with visible cargo
20:47:23 <Alberth> open wagon is much safer when shit hits the fan :p
20:47:39 <andythenorth> grain = covered hopper
20:47:48 <andythenorth> hmm, too many mail vans :P
20:47:55 <Alberth> yeah, likely build such that the roof gets blown away
20:48:49 * andythenorth considering wood chips
20:48:57 <andythenorth> paper is made from them
20:49:27 <andythenorth> visible cargo / wagon choice is a much more interesting way to decide the economy
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20:50:12 <frosch123> what happend to trash metal?
20:52:26 <andythenorth> pyrite can be processed to a range of things…copper, gold, nickel
20:52:42 <andythenorth> nickel would at least be visible
20:54:28 <frosch123> i have no idea what nickel is used for :)
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20:58:39 <andythenorth> goes into stainless steel mostly, it seems
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21:04:27 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: :)
21:05:17 <andythenorth> anyone good at chemistry?
21:05:22 * andythenorth struggles to follow it well
21:05:44 <Eddi|zuHause> the questions are (in order): "are you childish", "are you nervous", "are you paranoid" and "are you drunk"
21:06:14 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone good at metaquestions?
21:06:53 <supermop> Ti not should probably not be metal
21:06:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i've written programs that handle hydrochloric acid
21:07:15 <Eddi|zuHause> does that mean i've in-depth knowledge about it? probably not
21:07:17 <supermop> unless you want really fancy cans for your tinned fish and beer
21:07:53 <supermop> ore->Ti-> fighter jets and golf clubs
21:08:30 <Eddi|zuHause> you use Titatnium for things that need to be strong like steel but also light like aluminium
21:09:08 <andythenorth> titanium would be exported
21:09:21 <andythenorth> ‘pacific northwest’ economy could import it for airplanes
21:09:32 <Eddi|zuHause> but there's probably not enough of it going around to make 6 mrd cars from
21:10:24 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: in regular firs i end up making everything out of aluminum
21:10:35 * andythenorth trying to understand fertiliser production
21:10:53 <Eddi|zuHause> they're not very sturdy cars, i'm assuming :p
21:10:59 <supermop> bulk terminal -> alu plant = make all the Al you want
21:11:06 <andythenorth> I have sulfur, do I need potash or phosphate?
21:11:22 <supermop> presumably my trains should derail a lot more in warm weather too
21:11:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i've not played with the last few... dozen... iterations of FIRS
21:13:09 <andythenorth> probably need phosphate :P
21:13:50 <andythenorth> but phosphate is an import cargo, too many import cargos is boring
21:18:53 <andythenorth> to put it another way, is sulphur used in non-phosphate fertiliser?
21:19:51 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a lot of sulphur in eggs
21:20:07 <Eddi|zuHause> (not sure if that's what you wanted to know)
21:20:34 <Eddi|zuHause> it's basically why eggs are yellow, and why rotten eggs smell so bad
21:21:34 <frosch123> and what do chickens eat that contains sulfur?
21:21:58 <frosch123> or do they extract it from diesel cars?
21:22:46 <andythenorth> they eat eggs silly
21:22:55 <andythenorth> where else would it come from?
21:28:31 <Eddi|zuHause> how is that a problem?
21:28:50 <Eddi|zuHause> the colour depends not only on the content, but also on the structure
21:29:34 <frosch123> the real question is whether peanuts and geese are actually fish
21:29:59 <frosch123> there are a lot of fish at the top of the list
21:31:15 <andythenorth> eggs are not a FIRS cargo
21:31:34 <andythenorth> macports maintainer offering some help
21:59:57 <andythenorth> it would be lame :)
22:00:03 <andythenorth> it can’t actually rotate the wagons
22:00:21 <supermop> its indoors though so i guess you use your imagination
22:00:39 <supermop> need shunting patch to shunt two cars at a time into tipple
22:00:49 <supermop> slag dump also needed
22:04:19 <supermop> firs should place more foundries next to steel mills so i can use the molten metal cars
22:06:53 <Alberth> can molten cars even drive?
22:10:35 <Eddi|zuHause> A wild SirXavius appears.
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22:21:37 <andythenorth> supermop: I end up funding them for that reason :P
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22:55:43 <Wolf01> RoadTypeIdentifiers::FromTile does not work well with base tram and base road
22:55:46 <andythenorth> still on roadstops?
22:57:47 <Wolf01> And I found the problem
22:58:03 <Wolf01> HasRoadTypeRoad/Tram checks for != 0
22:58:14 <Wolf01> But base road and tram ARE 0
22:58:29 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like a logic fail to me
22:58:33 <Wolf01> So I should check for bits instead?
23:00:27 <andythenorth> how does railtypes handle RAIL / ELRL?
23:00:37 <andythenorth> do they get assigned the labels?
23:00:41 <andythenorth> or is it bit-checking?
23:00:52 <andythenorth> (in the case where it’s defaults)
23:01:10 <Wolf01> Bit checking, but it's easy there, you don't have 2 railtypes on the same tile
23:02:08 <Wolf01> I would like to have 2 railtypes, to fix the different bits on same tile for NS/WE
23:02:55 <andythenorth> is that the case where half-tile tracks occupy the full tile?
23:03:06 <andythenorth> and different type can’t then be built on same tile?
23:03:16 <andythenorth> that’s irritating
23:03:24 <andythenorth> might TMWFTLB though :)
23:03:27 <Wolf01> Lol... I broke diagdirection now
23:03:41 <Wolf01> I get road bits being built at the sides of the roadstop
23:03:56 <Wolf01> I think I inverted 2 bits somewhere
23:04:08 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc had a patch for that once
23:04:29 <andythenorth> ‘x had a patch’ is usually the death of the idea :D
23:04:36 <Eddi|zuHause> for separating the two tracks
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23:14:36 <Wolf01> Meh, I can't even use GetRoadBits because it's MP_STATION and not MP_ROAD
23:17:35 <andythenorth> not right yet, just throwing it up for opinions
23:17:44 <andythenorth> there is a severe lack of farm / organic cargos
23:18:07 <andythenorth> and gold will probably switch to nickel
23:18:33 <andythenorth> and I’m not convinced by wood -> sawmill -> timber -> goods
23:24:01 <supermop> arctic circle seems less farmy than the other areas
23:25:40 * andythenorth is reading about farming in the yukon
23:25:46 <andythenorth> ‘oats are the easiest to grow'
23:25:51 <andythenorth> someone has an elk farm :P
23:26:12 <andythenorth> ‘arctic circle’ is basically a wavey-hands f*ck off to the realism nerds
23:26:48 <Wolf01> Why don't you just focus on making it playable instead of realism-rage?
23:27:55 <Wolf01> I wouldn't care less if you bring logs directly to a paperworks instead of wood pulp
23:29:16 <andythenorth> unfortunately I have upset some scandinavians
23:29:26 <andythenorth> so I am adjusting the docs :P
23:29:55 <Wolf01> You know you don't need to make everybody happy, that's in movies and anime
23:30:09 <andythenorth> I can fix their sadness by changing the words
23:30:23 <andythenorth> the actual economy….I’m making that to suit my taste
23:31:49 <Wolf01> Mmmh, I would rely on m7 7..6, but we decided to deprecate them
23:32:24 <Wolf01> As that stored 1 for road and 2 for tram, 0 meant nothing
23:32:59 <andythenorth> I wondered about that
23:33:07 <andythenorth> seems like it _shouldn’t_ be needed
23:33:25 <andythenorth> those results should be possible to calculate always?
23:33:30 <Wolf01> It shouldn't be needed with 15 roadtypes instead of 16
23:33:33 * andythenorth doesn’t know how though :|
23:34:00 <Wolf01> I need to identify when 0 means nothing or means original road/tram
23:34:37 <andythenorth> nothing if there are no road bits?
23:34:43 <andythenorth> or is that not possible to detect?
23:34:49 <Wolf01> I could do it by looking at both m4+m5/m4+m3
23:34:50 <andythenorth> roadstop has no bits?
23:35:15 <andythenorth> looks about right
23:35:21 <Wolf01> Eh, I could use GetRoadBits, but that asserts if TileType != MP_ROAD
23:35:32 <andythenorth> and tile is station
23:35:37 <Wolf01> So GetRoadBits is useful only on clear road
23:35:59 <Wolf01> I could do the bitcheck by hand, but then it's the same of removing the assert
23:36:07 <Wolf01> Or adding | MP_STATION
23:36:21 <andythenorth> urgh, how does the station tile store whether it’s road, tram, or both?
23:36:31 * andythenorth must to sleep :P
23:38:08 <Wolf01> m7 7..6 tells if it's road or tram, m4 what kind of road and/or tram
23:38:35 <Wolf01> m4 for stations is... something I would like to discuss
23:38:45 <Wolf01> m4: custom station id; 0 means standard graphics
23:38:58 <andythenorth> ok so either we don’t deprecate m7 7..6, or we have to have a distinction for what 0 means?
23:38:59 <Wolf01> For roadstops is always 0
23:39:47 <andythenorth> if 0 means nothing OR original road / tram, that seems confused
23:39:58 <Wolf01> That's really confused
23:40:07 * andythenorth is ignoring the custom stops question for now :)
23:40:44 <andythenorth> it’s too late for me to start reading the enums and stuff :)
23:41:03 <Wolf01> Now I'm storing roadtypes in m4, but that mean I'm abusing the bits
23:41:03 <andythenorth> also I have no fricking idea about most of the implementation :)
23:42:05 <andythenorth> I read m4 as free, for roadstops
23:42:20 <Wolf01> Yes, but the specs tell another thing
23:42:36 <andythenorth> the choice of m4 was based on the grid :P
23:43:36 <andythenorth> if pushed to choose, NRT > custom road stop graphics, every time
23:43:40 <Wolf01> I would like to think again about having 16 subtypes for each roadtype
23:43:50 <andythenorth> we can have fewer, surely?
23:43:56 <andythenorth> it’s just a conventional number :P
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23:45:18 <andythenorth> you want to reduce the number of bits? Or reserve some values to distinguish ‘default’ from ‘nothing’?
23:46:10 <Wolf01> I would just use 8 subtypes for roadtype, and the other 2 bits are to know exactly if the tile has road or tram
23:46:32 <Wolf01> Or we will still keep m7 7..6 and 16 subtypes
23:47:34 <Wolf01> When 0 has too many meanings you need to use more bits, or few features
23:47:39 <andythenorth> I originally considered 3 bits or so
23:47:49 <andythenorth> imho, 8 types is plenty
23:48:04 <Wolf01> I can't even think about more than 6 types :P
23:48:04 <andythenorth> but I was persuaded that 16 is fine, so I rewrote spec
23:48:46 <andythenorth> any types menu with more than 4 or 5 gets daft
23:49:18 <andythenorth> if this is limiting progress, try something you know might be wrong?
23:49:37 <andythenorth> if someone else strongly freels it’s wrong, they can refactor it
23:49:37 <Wolf01> Ok, transport fever has 9 types of roads + 3 types of tram, but that imply state-machines (1-2-3 lane roads)
23:50:20 <andythenorth> I am 90% certain that someone gave me a paste with 15 types, and one bit reserved for default
23:50:26 <andythenorth> but I lost that :(
23:50:32 <andythenorth> and pastebin doesn’t keep them very long
23:50:46 <andythenorth> one value, not one bit :P
23:51:26 * V453000 just spent a whole evening making models of random pipe pieces ._.
23:51:52 <andythenorth> what could be finer? :)
23:52:04 <andythenorth> I have spent the evening failing to learn about NPK fertiliser
23:52:19 <andythenorth> also bedtime, really really
23:52:43 <V453000> nah more of a general pipe :)
23:52:46 <V453000> factorio has it's pipes done
23:54:15 <Wolf01> I need to create the modules factory now
23:56:17 <V453000> I had a very bright idea
23:56:24 <V453000> I wanted to try to make a big train junction ASAP
23:57:08 <V453000> so I made a factory where each train station produces only 1 thing, and a specific factory layout where there is 1 central 3-way junction
23:57:16 <V453000> every single train goes over that junction
23:57:33 <V453000> and to top it off, limit cargo wagon storage size to three slots
23:58:02 <V453000> currently finishing 4 lines in each direction after like 30 hours XD
23:58:18 <V453000> basically got all researches
23:58:30 <V453000> except follower count and the infinite ones (duh)
23:59:33 <Wolf01> Instead I installed a mod to get different length for underground belts: yellow = standard, red = 2x, blue 3x
continue to next day ⏵
