IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-10-20
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00:22:49 <sim-al2> Interesting that 2cc gondolas carry more wood than the flatcar does from 4th gen onward
00:33:35 <Ethereal_Shiver> That's illogical
00:37:09 <FLHerne> sim-al2: Woodchip biomass?
00:38:23 <FLHerne> 72 tons is more wood than you get on flat wagons
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01:14:51 <goodger> I found three errors in this sentence: "More than 15,000 people have applied [for 78 jobs driving] Virgin Trains’ new state-of-the art Azuma trains."
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04:09:45 <supermop> protecting my emotional well being by not watching the debate tonight
04:16:30 <sim-al2> It's hilarious actually, in a sort of "WTF is Trump talking about" way
04:22:20 <FLHerne> "Donald Trump has a leg-up on Gary Johnson. He has apparently heard of Aleppo."
05:07:28 <supermop> might get a google pixel tomorrow
05:07:53 <Sylf> no explosion? how boring.
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14:24:13 <masab> my problem related to trains
14:24:47 <planetmaker> hi. Best describe the problem in its entirety
14:26:56 <masab> after upgrading trains and to maglave construction after many year the trains not following the oders but in the binging of maglave trains was following orders properly
14:28:06 <masab> now tains behaving like trains not following orders and running on different rail stations instead of orders
14:29:00 <peter1138> possibly missed out a bit of track conversion
14:30:31 <masab> i again start the game again come to the same situation its again and again
14:32:11 <masab> how can i send you screenshot >
14:34:52 <Wolf01> Check for implicit orders in trains schedule?
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14:42:17 <planetmaker> maybe a piece of track was exploded by an ufo?
14:44:01 <masab> no on the same track maglave trains was working well but after few years on the same track and same maglave train not following the orders
14:44:06 <planetmaker> or the depots are not all converted and available - but they look for a depot to service in - and get wildly on the wrong track, looking for the closest one
14:45:54 <masab> no trains also going to depot but situation is still same
14:46:22 <masab> you can join me online and view right now and see the real situation
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14:52:40 <planetmaker> sorry, I can't at this moment
16:16:13 <masab> i am not satisfied with all
16:24:41 <Wolf01> masab, you should write about your problem in the forum and attach a screenshot/savegame, not just reading it
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17:02:19 <goodger> honestly, planetmaker, what does openttd, inc. pay your massive salary for, if not to solve nebulous problems on IRC
17:06:19 <Alberth> just ban everybody? should solve all IRC problems
17:11:01 <argoneus> good evening train friends
17:11:52 <argoneus> if you have a game that has a GUI frontend
17:11:58 <argoneus> and a separate class or something for the actual game logic
17:12:04 <argoneus> how do you make them communicate if it has to be twoway?
17:12:13 <argoneus> some sort of intermediate controller class or whatever?
17:13:29 <argoneus> anus is my favourite
17:14:29 <Alberth> standard pattern for GUIs and logic in the MVC pattern (model-view-controller)
17:14:44 <argoneus> so basically what I described
17:14:51 <argoneus> though it's a bit of a mishmash for me
17:16:53 <argoneus> basically when the game receivess something from the network, it tells the GUI to update itself
17:17:06 <argoneus> and vice versa if you click something in the GUI it tells the game to send it over the wire
17:17:13 <argoneus> so it's a situation where... everyone needs to know of everyone else
17:17:27 <argoneus> I'll just make it game<->controller<->gui
17:17:44 <argoneus> where the controller will forward requests from game to gui and vice versa
17:17:55 <argoneus> even if it's not a strictly MVC model it makes sense to me
17:18:38 <Alberth> MVC is a very general model (as are most design patterns), you rarely use them as-is
17:19:03 <Alberth> you may want to make explicit what lives at both sides of the network
17:19:10 <Milek7_> gui could register callbacks for updates in game
17:19:24 <Wolf01> Oh, are you into game development too, argoneus?
17:19:34 <argoneus> it's just a random pet project
17:19:41 <Alberth> at least into GUI development :)
17:19:56 <argoneus> GUIs are the bane of my existence
17:20:09 <argoneus> it's just a random pyqt thing
17:20:34 <argoneus> as for registering callbacks
17:20:41 <argoneus> I suppose I could do that but I never really figured out how to do that
17:20:58 <argoneus> the most I ever did was have a list of classes that care about what I'm doing and .notifying() them
17:21:20 <argoneus> eh I'll just hack something together, thanks Alberth
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17:25:21 <Wolf01> But better and with blackjack and hookers
17:25:56 <argoneus> or whatever it was called
17:27:03 <argoneus> what are you making it on
17:28:02 <Alberth> qt has such nice callback hooks
17:28:27 <Wolf01> Oh, nothing too weird, just some more tank types and powerups
17:28:38 <argoneus> Alberth: you mean the whole connect() thing?
17:28:45 <argoneus> or is there something more
17:28:51 <Wolf01> But I need to get rid of some collision bugs
17:29:55 <Alberth> yes, the connect function stuff
17:30:22 <argoneus> isn't libgdx all the hype
17:31:02 <Wolf01> Unity is too weird, I can't understand how the ide works, not enough freedom
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17:39:19 <Wolf01> Mmmh, how do I snap a vector to the nearest coordinate? I mean, I want to snap the position in a 8x8 grid when turning, but the movement is free (could be incremented even by 0.1)
17:41:37 <argoneus> Wolf01: you should have a way of translating
17:41:41 <argoneus> in game coordinates to grid coordinates
17:41:45 <argoneus> and then it's trivial
17:42:03 <argoneus> if I understood your question that is
17:43:09 <Wolf01> No, I want to just be able to round by 8 the current position
17:43:44 <argoneus> also battle city had free movement altogether, no?
17:43:45 <Wolf01> Yep, only when turning
17:43:45 <Alberth> I don't understand the question
17:44:40 <Wolf01> It's to allow to center a narrow passage :P
17:44:58 <Alberth> but snapping is usually size * floor(pos / size) possibly with a + size / 2
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17:47:22 <Wolf01> The problem is that I have the bounding boxes for collisions of the same size of the tiles, but the movement is really fine, if you don't have a reference such a wall to collide and turn it's a pita to be able to pass in a 1 tile narrow passage
17:58:38 <argoneus> Alberth: I just realized
17:58:40 <argoneus> it's not exactly MVC
17:58:47 <argoneus> because I don't just react to user input
17:58:51 <argoneus> I feed the GUI information even without it
17:59:11 <argoneus> I can't figure out a way to make 2 way communication "cleanly"
17:59:18 <argoneus> without mixing things
17:59:58 <argoneus> the controller usually reacts to user input, asks the model for stuff, and passes it back
18:00:14 <argoneus> but in this case, the controller should do that and also react to data coming from the network
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18:00:32 <argoneus> so game logic receives stuff from network -> passes it to controller -> controller updates gui
18:00:46 <argoneus> user clicks gui -> passes it to controller -> controller tells the logic what to do
18:00:47 <Alberth> the first line is a wrong assumption, I think
18:00:49 <Wolf01> Vector2 v = position / snapRadius;
18:00:49 <Wolf01> return new Vector2((float)Math.Round(v.X), (float)Math.Round(v.Y)) * snapRadius;
18:00:52 <argoneus> so I mix two behaviours in the controller, no?
18:01:47 <Alberth> controller reacts to input, not necessarily user input
18:01:59 <Alberth> maybe the simplest solution is to have 2 controllers
18:02:01 <argoneus> so input could be network data as well
18:02:08 <argoneus> I was thinking that too
18:02:12 <argoneus> networkcontroller and guicontroller
18:02:29 <Alberth> one that updates the gui from the data that you have and that changes
18:02:43 <Alberth> and one that handles input
18:03:02 <Alberth> where you can split the latter between user and network, ie 2 input controllers
18:03:08 <argoneus> one controller will react to incoming network data
18:03:12 <argoneus> and the other will react to incoming user input
18:03:24 <argoneus> and both will do the necessary steps to update the game logic / gui?
18:03:52 <argoneus> though what if user input translates to a network command
18:03:56 <argoneus> then the controllers also need to talk together
18:04:06 <Alberth> I'd think both update the data storage
18:04:47 <Alberth> make a queue of data to be sent to the network
18:05:15 <argoneus> user sends a message through the gui, and the message only shows up clientside once the server received it (for obvious reasons)
18:06:14 <Alberth> you could opt for keeping user input and stuff from the network completely separate
18:06:33 <argoneus> I send message -> gui controller updates outgoing network queue -> network controller sends it -> [server receives it and sends it back] -> network controller receives message and passes it into incoming network data -> gui controller receives the data and draws it
18:06:53 <argoneus> something like this?
18:07:21 <Alberth> anything you enter first does a round-trip to the server and back
18:07:44 <Alberth> does give latency in response, of course
18:08:04 <argoneus> I need to be sure the messages are in the right order
18:08:10 <argoneus> and when the server has 100 clients sending the messages
18:08:16 <argoneus> the server has to decide who was first
18:08:18 <argoneus> so I can't predict anything
18:09:15 <argoneus> having a network controller will help a lot I think
18:09:28 <argoneus> because then I can asynchronously process both an incoming/outgoing queue
18:09:59 <argoneus> or I could just have a gui controller
18:10:03 <argoneus> and slap a network handler inside my game logic
18:10:07 <argoneus> that should also work
18:10:24 <argoneus> why is this so much more complicated than I thought it would ._.
18:10:45 <Alberth> too many independent things happening
18:12:04 <argoneus> I'm just gonna treat network as part of game logic
18:12:17 <argoneus> the idea is that the game itself should send/receive stuff on its own without any sort of gui present
18:12:23 <argoneus> so I should code it with that in mind
18:12:28 <argoneus> even if the game requires a GUI, it should work without one
18:13:01 <Alberth> and you have data stored at either side, to reduce the need to ask remotely for stuff
18:13:01 <argoneus> for all I care the game is just a glorified tcp client
18:13:25 <Alberth> *both is the right word, likely
18:13:58 <Alberth> you keep a data storage at both sides of the network
18:14:08 <Alberth> at the server and at the client(s)
18:14:17 <argoneus> the client keeps track of its own state
18:14:22 <argoneus> and the server keeps track of every client's state
18:14:29 <argoneus> I even have half the server written already
18:14:33 <Alberth> server needs central knowledge, client needs to know what to display to the user
18:15:12 <argoneus> though one more question
18:15:29 <argoneus> if the model changes, does it notify the controller or the view?
18:15:34 <argoneus> "hey controller, update the view"
18:15:41 <argoneus> or does it directly update the view
18:15:53 <argoneus> or does the view monitor the model
18:16:00 <argoneus> so many possibilities
18:16:03 <Alberth> you'd have to read the wiki page
18:16:23 <Alberth> but usually, having a separate thing for separate parts is a good idea
18:16:25 <argoneus> the wiki said that the model directly updated the view
18:16:30 <argoneus> but that seems off in my case
18:16:38 <argoneus> the game logic has no reason to care about some view
18:16:46 <argoneus> so I'm a bit confused
18:16:47 <Alberth> it can be done, eg EMF does that
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18:17:04 <Alberth> you can hook update callbacks in the model itself
18:17:28 <Alberth> Eclipse Meta Fsomething
18:17:41 <Alberth> core of Eclipse Modeling
18:17:54 <andythenorth> favourite link is above
18:18:21 <Alberth> +2 for the cat picture :D
18:18:22 <argoneus> my game logic directly changing the gui seems bad
18:18:34 <argoneus> imo the game logic should just be a tcp client that keeps its own state
18:18:43 <argoneus> and some other entity keeps track of what the logic is up to
18:18:43 <Alberth> it avoids having to write a controller
18:18:57 <argoneus> I'd basically need two controllers otherwise, right
18:19:03 <argoneus> one to translate user input to game logic
18:19:09 <Alberth> but eventually, there is code that updates the gui, either way
18:19:10 <argoneus> and one to update the gui based on game logic
18:19:42 <Alberth> as I said, MVC is very general, nobody uses it unmodified
18:19:55 <argoneus> I think for now I'll go with two controllers like we said before
18:20:01 <argoneus> one to deal with user input and translate it to game logic
18:20:05 <argoneus> and one to translate game logic into gui updates
18:20:11 <argoneus> that seems to make the most sense to me right now
18:20:36 <Alberth> doing stuff in a way that makes sense, makes a lot of sense :)
18:21:28 <argoneus> I'll skip having an user input controller
18:21:32 <argoneus> and just call the game logic directly from the GUI
18:21:37 <argoneus> it should be fairly high level commands
18:22:12 <argoneus> I just need to tell the game logic "user attempted to send message hello!"
18:22:18 <argoneus> I don't need a controller for such basic thngs
18:23:04 <argoneus> it's different the other way around
18:23:10 <argoneus> as a simple game logic update can require multiple GUI changes
18:23:18 <argoneus> so a controller there makes sense
18:23:24 <argoneus> thanks for helping me bounce ideas Alberth!
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18:23:45 <Alberth> "controller" is just a way of thinking about it, you can eventually give it any shape you see fit
18:24:03 <argoneus> I'll make the QWidget itself a controller, then :)
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19:00:18 <Alberth> he just loves cats and tramz :)
19:00:32 <Alberth> nice solution to your problem btw
19:01:36 <Wolf01> I used the idea you gave me about rounding ad applied that to vector components
19:01:48 <Alberth> works because the rounded value is in the center, I guess
19:02:51 <Wolf01> I even found that a snap radius of 16 is even better, as you rotate by 90° you don't notice the snap
19:03:43 <Alberth> making it magically work :)
19:04:06 <Wolf01> You need to be very precise to position the tank and turn to see it really moves by ~7 pixels
19:04:37 <Alberth> you know what to look for, and when :)
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19:41:48 <andythenorth> needs a tl;dr though :P
19:44:28 <Alberth> so the cat mystery is solved, and you have new tramz, such progress :)
19:45:02 <supermop_> andythenorth: i was expecting another tram
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19:48:16 <supermop_> i wonder how hard it would be to build my own N tramway pointwork
19:48:29 <supermop_> do people still build their own point?
19:49:05 <supermop_> tramway points should be easier - just one bit that flaps back and forth
19:58:21 <Wolf01> I never understood the difference, that's why I asked
19:58:23 <supermop_> i do but assumed the European audience here called them points
19:58:35 <supermop_> americans call them switches
19:59:02 <Wolf01> I always call them switches, or junctions, even in italian
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20:02:55 * andythenorth wondered when people would start talking about Switch here
20:02:58 <andythenorth> I just read the review
20:03:08 <andythenorth> switched back to irc, boom, we’re talking about it :P
20:03:50 <andythenorth> “what the Wii U should have been"
20:04:07 <Wolf01> I hope that thing won't cost 300€
20:04:09 * andythenorth is not a dedicated gamer
20:04:19 <andythenorth> we have a Wii U, kids like it, didn’t break it yet
20:04:28 <andythenorth> controllers cost more than the console
20:05:15 <Wolf01> I have a Wii U too, and the only thing I like about it is the ability to play on bed without the tv
20:05:37 <Wolf01> Not with all games, but the 2 ones I have allow it
20:06:51 <andythenorth> whenever I read Nintendo reviews, they are all from the perspective of ‘this console is underpowered and over-priced'
20:07:08 <andythenorth> which overlooks that it’s the only thing that runs recent Mario Kart
20:07:32 <andythenorth> I don’t care how many polygons it draws per second
20:07:41 <andythenorth> it has Mario Kart, and nothing else does
20:10:51 <Wolf01> I wanted to buy that too, but no fun to play alone
20:13:54 <supermop_> i wonder if it is better to buy standard scale rails and cover them with something, or buy some generic metal strips to inlay
20:14:44 <supermop_> my old wii was essentially just a mario kart appliance
20:15:31 <andythenorth> supermop_: you don’t want to just buy track?
20:16:06 <supermop_> the modular tramway ive seen doesn't spark my interest
20:16:40 <supermop_> but i could buy regular track and set it into some wood or concrete table top
20:16:51 <supermop_> or use brass or copper so it looks fancy
20:17:24 <supermop_> looks to toy-ish for what i want
20:18:09 <Wolf01> I really like the Kato Unitram instead
20:18:20 <supermop_> i want a topologically accurate, but visually abstract model of this:
20:18:36 <supermop_> set in a nice walnut shelf/table top
20:19:17 <supermop_> laser cut or cnc rout the top layer of wood veneer to fit around trackwork?
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20:19:58 <andythenorth> did you see the black-top layouts I found?
20:20:02 <andythenorth> think I shared them
20:20:29 <supermop_> hmm sounds vaguely familiar
20:24:12 <supermop_> hmm table top card game layout?
20:24:58 <supermop_> the guy plays a game of marshalling train shown on cards huh?
20:25:27 <andythenorth> inglenook shunting puzzle
20:25:37 <andythenorth> it’s a logic problem basically
20:26:07 <supermop_> build a table with 4 yards for a game night?
20:26:17 <andythenorth> or 2 back to back
20:26:51 <supermop_> what about depots along way to drop off certain cars out of mixed freight
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20:29:14 <supermop_> sounds like a use for my little N 08
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20:33:39 <Wolf01> Too bad the one I found for trainz simulator doesn't work
20:33:40 <andythenorth> supermop_: there’s also ‘timesaver’ but I don’t get it
20:33:51 <andythenorth> Wolf01: there’s a very old javascript version somewhere
20:34:20 <supermop_> too bad the only other n stuff i have is a 158, 225 swallow set and 125 swallow set
20:34:22 <Wolf01> But driving the train is better :D
20:34:23 <andythenorth> I was going to build an inglenook, but then….I couldn’t be arsed
20:34:44 <supermop_> not much marshaling to do
20:35:36 <supermop_> maybe an excuse to buy some railfreight grey 47 and bunch of wagons
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20:42:24 <supermop_> ok nvm this looks really tedious
20:42:39 <Wolf01> And people ask for shunting in OTTD
20:48:34 <andythenorth> I went rapidly off the idea, running trains on my kids 4x8 oval is quite relaxing
20:48:46 <andythenorth> actually doing shunting puzzles…not
20:52:23 <frosch123> we need an alphabetisation program for trains
20:54:04 <andythenorth> frosch123: to teach them to read? o_O
20:55:04 <Wolf01> So they can read how much late they are running
21:03:57 <V453000> Wolf01: thats nice :D
21:04:41 <frosch123> i commited the sprite stacking btw, if you didn't notice
21:05:06 <V453000> so it is in trunk now?
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21:05:39 <V453000> I am kind of holy shit levels of busy with factorio right now but I would love to start working on the train set soonish
21:05:44 <Wolf01> So you can helpz with NRT now?
21:05:50 <V453000> finishing BRIX first though, too ._.
21:06:12 <frosch123> Wolf01: possible :)
21:19:42 <andythenorth> getting any sleep?
21:20:16 <V453000> yeah it is not horrible
21:20:33 <V453000> exactly 7:15am there is an organic alarm
21:20:48 <andythenorth> that’s like…the middle of the day
21:21:06 <V453000> she does not sleep during the day almost at all however
21:21:17 <V453000> like, unusually little
21:22:27 <andythenorth> then trammed up to the max
21:22:31 <andythenorth> until version 1.1
21:22:48 <V453000> I have sketches for almost ALL the train models for BRIX
21:22:53 <V453000> but didnt have enough time to blender them
21:23:21 <V453000> drawing almost every day in subway :D is like 1hr per day so it goes somewhere, but 3D work is behind a lot
21:23:46 <V453000> I am seriously considering getting a tablet and a wacom pen and drawing shit in metro directly into sprites
21:25:35 <V453000> but yeah maybe later, already bought headphones for christmas for myself :D
21:25:43 <andythenorth> noise cancelling? o_O
21:27:02 <V453000> I usually have relatively noise cancelling (not actively) headphones on my head all day long at work, so I actually like not listening to shit in subway
21:27:13 <andythenorth> my friend bought noise cancelling headphones when he had kids
21:27:18 <andythenorth> for holding crying baby
21:27:53 <andythenorth> for those who aren’t parents, this isn’t misogynistic uncaring crap, it’s just basic survival :P
21:28:05 <V453000> and at home I prefer to use open headphones which actually let noise in/out because 1. the sound is clearer and I vastly prefer it, 2. I dont use it that noisily to annoy surroundings, and I can hear that there is someone talking to me, even if i cant undertand what they want immediately without puttin the headphones down
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21:28:16 <andythenorth> I have open headphones
21:28:23 <andythenorth> avoids having to take them off
21:28:25 <V453000> well to be fair, Ema almost never cries
21:28:34 <andythenorth> you have ideal baby
21:28:37 <V453000> also I got them wireless, the freedom is amazing
21:29:03 <V453000> ........ also bring the benefit of exporting fecal matter while keeping headphones on
21:29:15 <andythenorth> looks stupid, but works grat
21:30:08 <V453000> the sound is better than anything I have heard before
21:31:03 <V453000> I was using in-ear headphones at some point too, but the super heavy bass isnt exactly what I prefer, and having them in my ears for a long time is just pain to me
21:32:43 <andythenorth> 1st one needs a few pixels changed
21:33:26 <V453000> kind of hating the huge black rectangles on the second one but eh
21:33:38 <V453000> some gray would be nice to change the solid color
21:34:11 <andythenorth> the roofs look crap on the second one
21:34:19 <andythenorth> also in / \ views, worse
21:34:43 <V453000> yeah the roofs are another thing
21:38:55 <Wolf01> "I refused to believe my road worker father was stealing from his job, but when I got home, all the signs were there."
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22:01:04 <supermop_> build a shunting puzzle?
22:03:30 <Wolf01> I don't want to code this evening, I've done that every night since sunday
22:03:44 *** welshdragon has joined #openttd
22:03:45 <Wolf01> About 50 hours of work this week
22:07:00 <andythenorth> sometimes I just watch YT videos
22:07:21 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
22:07:47 <Wolf01> If I open YT I'll look for another 2 hours documentary about restoring steam locos
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22:53:04 * andythenorth failed to draw tramz tonight
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23:30:23 <supermop_> maybe i could make a brio puzzle instead
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