IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-10-05
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00:47:21 <Samu> i knew this would happen
00:47:39 <DorpsGek> Samu: 0.999977582999
00:47:56 <Samu> how could it mismatch :(
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02:46:12 <drac_boy> sorry about asking this sort of thing now but I had to wonder..how common was it probably to have a light locomotive or any dmu that only had two driven axles out of the four total?
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03:07:17 <Eddi|zuHause> the german SVTs (late-1930s) had only few driven axles
03:07:57 <Eddi|zuHause> there are lots of variations for those
03:10:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say that until very recently, it was fairly common in MUs that only half of the axles are driven
03:11:14 <Eddi|zuHause> but for engines, it's pretty uncommon to have undriven axles since at least the 1950s
03:11:41 <Eddi|zuHause> there are a few exceptions, generally for axle weight reasons
03:12:50 <sim-al2> DMUs, especially when engines were lower powered, tended to use single axle drive when possible because transmitting power to both axles in a bogie requires a more complicated design
03:15:38 <sim-al2> To make for that, some of those had two engines
03:16:17 <sim-al2> The Budd RDC, and the various 50's and 60's British DMU classes are good examples
03:20:53 <Eddi|zuHause> the first SVT was built basically like this: it was a 2-part DMU with two diesel-electric engines. the front bogey housed a diesel engine, and had unpowered axles, the middle bogey was the connection between the two wagons, and had two electric engines, which drove the axles individually, and the end bogey had another diesel engine and unpowered axles
03:21:43 <Eddi|zuHause> a later series had this reversed, and some didn't have a connecting bogey, but two sets of bogeys on each wagon
03:21:59 <Eddi|zuHause> there were also 3-part and 4-part versions
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03:22:32 <drac_boy> sorry didn't noticed it froze up again till I tried reply to sim-a12 :p
03:22:45 <drac_boy> anyway as I was going to say... sim-a12 ah geeze I didn't think of the weight in transferring from inside to outside axle - good point, I'll have to remember that too :)
03:23:24 * drac_boy is kinda curious as to why oftc seem to like to just stuck up at rare times but mehs
03:23:36 <Eddi|zuHause> that's on your end
03:23:49 <sim-al2> I know that with Japanese DMUs, they avoided that until the development of the big 12 cylinder engine for the intercity DMUs required it
03:24:26 <drac_boy> well I dunno about that as the other irc window (not oftc server tho) is still working fine the whole time
03:24:45 <drac_boy> sim-a12 really? interesting, I only know just a bit about the KIHA units but not a lot else
03:25:45 <drac_boy> oh and theres that modern tilting dmu set for operation all the way up north (I forgot the name of that island its on) .. electrification was too costly and same for trackwork so what else but to have a tilting dmu to shave minutes off there and there
03:26:10 <drac_boy> don't think I've heard of tilting dmus in serious operation anywhere else but I could be wrong tho (given my poor attempts when it comes to non-english sites)
03:26:11 <sim-al2> Up to the 60's many units were still being built with the old DMF 17 design, which dated back to the 30's and had reached it's development potential
03:26:24 <sim-al2> I think the max output was around 180hp
03:27:26 <sim-al2> Kiha 261, 281, 283 were, but in recent years it's been disabled
03:27:51 <sim-al2> There's a couple of other DMUs used in west Japan that still do though
03:28:07 <drac_boy> 180hp? hmm and if going by two engines per unit .. thats 360hp per carriage which probably isn't too bad for lighter lines
03:28:40 <sim-al2> Yeah, but still there were packaging issues
03:28:57 <Eddi|zuHause> tilting DMUs aren't THAT rare
03:29:23 <sim-al2> Yeah, German VT612 and it's predecessors
03:29:45 <Eddi|zuHause> there was also the ICE-TD
03:29:50 <sim-al2> The air-conditioners in use then needed a generator set, but unfortunatly that needed a good amount of space
03:30:02 <Flygon> QR Tilt Train has Diesel tilting push-pull. Teechically a DMU. :U
03:30:15 <drac_boy> also sim-a12 I recall seeing some dmu consist that was basically a mix of 1-engine and 2-engine units because of the 1-engine one sharing its belly space with something else
03:30:17 <Flygon> But the series is more famous for it's Electric set
03:30:26 <sim-al2> In the intecity DMU classes, the driving cars had it mounted behind the cab, and could power 3 cars
03:30:27 <drac_boy> might had been uk but my memory isn't being helpful now
03:30:46 <sim-al2> But for the Kiha58, it had to be under the floor, which meant removing an engine
03:31:45 <drac_boy> ahh yeah ac systems too ... at least the split systems could usually work with dual-engine units as at least half of the ac system was actually on the roof instead
03:32:19 <sim-al2> Those single engine cars were ok on level lines, but using them even with the twin engines on graded lines meant slow speeds and sometimes even getting stuck
03:32:22 <drac_boy> or in the case of usa .. just use a long chassis to make space (cue budd rdc .. even although a bit of its exhaust system sat on roof instead)
03:32:54 <drac_boy> hmm yep I can imagine that being no fun :-s
03:32:57 <sim-al2> Japan has a smaller loading guage, especially rural lines
03:33:30 <sim-al2> Also I think these air conditioners were standardized with EMUs
03:33:56 <sim-al2> The radiators on the RDC are roof-mounted
03:34:14 <sim-al2> There's a space in the middle of the car where the coolant lines and exhaust go through to the roof
03:34:16 <drac_boy> sim-a12 yeah I think it often was the early years that had the presence of like 3-8 ac pods on roof per unit .. the amount seem to partially depend on the interior type (especially commuter vs non-commuter)
03:35:01 <sim-al2> Yeah, the first-class cars were the first to be air-conditioned, but the plan was to eventually have fully air-coniditoned trains, especially in the warmer areas
03:36:19 <sim-al2> The earlier air conditoners were fairly small, and so several would be installed, often with the ventilator housings still in place
03:36:25 <sim-al2> Hence all the bumps on the roof
03:36:57 <drac_boy> btw about mixing 1-/2-engine I think it also depend on what kind of drivetrain was in use too
03:37:29 <sim-al2> Later on they moved to larger units, which combined with the removal of the ventilator housings leeds to a smooth roof with a central hump
03:38:42 <sim-al2> Yeah, the 181 series uses a large 12 cylinder engine, which developed a lot more power
03:39:22 <sim-al2> 500 hp in early versions, 660 hp in later versions
03:39:25 <drac_boy> for the budd rdc it was one engine per truck with direct drive so its not a surprise that mixing 1- or 2-engine (or in some rare instances an engineless rdc that still had the roof hump) units together as the only negativity was in mixing too much unpowered coaches on hilly routes
03:39:49 <sim-al2> There were no engineless RDCs
03:40:06 <sim-al2> There was a single-engine version with no cabs
03:40:10 <drac_boy> well from factory maybe but some railroads actually stripped them out later on .. no engine but the hump was still there
03:40:37 <drac_boy> and yeah most people think of the budd rdc as an all-seat unit but there were actually other types including all-baggage (no seats!)
03:40:49 <sim-al2> In fact, Budd threatened to not honor the warrenty if the railroad pulled non-powered coaches with RDCs
03:41:11 <sim-al2> Although apparently they could pull a coach or two fairly well
03:41:41 <sim-al2> Don't forget the post office version
03:42:05 <drac_boy> heh well I think budd couldn't do much about it really .. I've found 50-60's dated photos with budd rdc being dead-in-tow behind a PA-1 or so .. to be detached at a certain station and the hydrodrive engaged to motor off on its own side route as the PA-1 kept going on straight
03:42:32 <sim-al2> In later years with some of the early commuter railroads, I imagine many ran with dead engine anyway
03:43:26 <sim-al2> As long as it's in neutral, it can be pulled without any problems
03:43:42 <sim-al2> In fact, there's even steam pipe fittings
03:43:55 <sim-al2> Although the engines need to be running for lighting
03:44:11 <drac_boy> also later repowers are a bit amusing. I know that via actually had cummins 600hp diesel engines .. talk about being able to get up to 100kph really fast but in reality the bumpy old rails heading toward hudson bay or further north were usually at a much more sedative speed :)
03:44:26 <sim-al2> The operations manual has a section on setting up an RDC for mid-train use like that
03:45:31 <sim-al2> I think the Dallas commuter rail system also has some repowered units
03:46:23 <drac_boy> about dmu with steam lines .. that seem to remind me of uk .. during the transitional years (if you could call it that) there were a lot of electric heated cars with steam pipe pass-thru .. and in some cases even an electric locomotive with no boiler but still carrying a steam pipe nevertheless
03:47:14 <sim-al2> The RDC setup is interesting, because it can actually use the steam to heat the car, as well as keep the engines and water tanks warm
03:47:32 <sim-al2> Useful for layover protection in cold weather
03:48:18 <drac_boy> of course there are always express-specific boxcars (or goods van in uk english) with steam pipes just so they could be placed behind locomotive rather than at the tail of train
03:50:34 <drac_boy> at least its a good thing they didn't try fit fish vans for 160kph operation hehe ;)
03:50:44 <sim-al2> Seems to be a fairly common feature of dedicated cars, espeically the various express cargo, RPOs, etc that used to be common here
03:51:01 <sim-al2> Oh yeah I imagine those smelled great....
03:52:16 <sim-al2> It seems that the UK had short wheelbase wagons far longer than anywhere else
03:53:00 <sim-al2> That seems to have been the biggest speed restriction, beyond that fact that so many cars lacked automatic brakes...
03:57:28 <drac_boy> btw as I recall the uk deltic also was tested with vacuum brakes and its major defect was rather apparent at the high speed braking attempts
03:57:47 <drac_boy> not too surprised with that
03:58:50 <sim-al2> Yeah, vaccum has more limited storage capacity, and requires larger cylinders and reservoirs
03:59:17 <sim-al2> It made sense with steam enginers as a steam-driven ejector has no moving parts and creates vaccum easily
03:59:38 <sim-al2> But with diesel and electric engines a seperate vaccum-pump is needed
03:59:56 <drac_boy> true. I think it was only during the excursion era that some steam locomotives did have air brake refitted in parallel
04:00:22 <drac_boy> (but maybe I am wrong, I only recall that the modern regulations for mainline running with certain carriers caused the air brake requirement)
04:00:41 <sim-al2> From what reading I've found, it seems that high capacity pumps were needed to charge and recharge vaccum-braked trains quickly
04:01:14 <sim-al2> I think almost all modern rolling stock is air-braked, with only older freight equipment in some countries still vaccum
04:01:32 <sim-al2> Even in the UK from the 60's onward the coaching stock is air-braked
04:01:53 <sim-al2> The Mk1s had vaccum and dual-braked versions IIRC
04:02:38 <drac_boy> btw not related to brakes but there was one very amusing "issue" with the early deltic runs ... train goes into long tunnel under throttle and cue the boiler shutting down ... apparently the engine literally globbed all the air around the roof at that time
04:03:17 <sim-al2> I think it's possible to build a vaccum brake system with equvialent performance to an air-brake system, even at high speeds, but the lower reservoir storage will become a problem with repeated applications and release
04:04:09 <sim-al2> A lot of those UK diesels had air brakes on the engine itself, even if the train was setup with the vaccum system
04:04:46 <sim-al2> Since air pressure was needed for control anyway
04:05:24 <sim-al2> Yeah, I can see that the Delitics would draw very large amounts of air
04:05:28 <drac_boy> yeah air-engine/vacuum-train is something I think I have heard quite a number of times
04:08:18 <Flygon> The pre-EMU MU solution!
04:09:22 <drac_boy> also I know there were some small railroads (usually narrow gauge, no surprise) through europe that eventually had these rare "brake conversion" wagons inserted between locomotive and the normal train .. even in one case the locomotive was electric but with vacuum brakes (probably didn't want to gimp with a historic locomotive) so the first wagon actually had a pumps setup that converted this into air for the several coaches
04:09:54 <sim-al2> Yeah, I've read that some of the UK 3rd rail railcars could do that
04:10:09 <sim-al2> Like the MLV (a motorized baggage car)
04:10:29 <sim-al2> Seems like a interesting setup to make work
04:13:55 <sim-al2> Oh looks like India still uses vaccum brakes on a large scale
04:13:59 <drac_boy> and yep thats why theres a lot of small smokes near the ground as thats the steam :p
04:14:38 <sim-al2> I didn't know they used those with the older equipment
04:15:06 <drac_boy> talk about finding a f40ph with no electric heat :P
04:15:23 <sim-al2> Heh, makes it quieter though
04:15:37 <drac_boy> well if its the pre-genset f40ph then you're correct
04:15:43 <sim-al2> I though the steam-heated cars were used with the ex-CN stuff until the end
04:15:57 <drac_boy> amtrak had the unofficial nickname of Screamer for them because the big v12 engine was noisy with longer trains at station platform
04:15:58 <sim-al2> Yeah, I think the gensets first appeared in the 90's
04:16:38 <drac_boy> also as the generator was off the engine that limited the f40ph's consist length during cold weathers unless you doubleheaded them
04:16:54 <sim-al2> P40 and P42 actually do the same thing, but they are a lot quieter
04:17:35 <sim-al2> Yeah, power is diverted away from traction to power the cars, so the more cars, the lower the traction power...
04:17:44 <drac_boy> btw there is a certain short period of via trains that I like for some reason .. it was sorta the "just a few months after creation of via" so you could see very weird mixes
04:17:53 <sim-al2> And when it gets cold, even worse
04:19:06 <drac_boy> CP RS, CN F5B, VIA F7A, budd streamlined baggage then coach, blue VIA coach, etca
04:19:26 <drac_boy> basically anything in the passenger yard they "just throw it into the station platform to heck with it!"
04:19:40 <drac_boy> very crazy mixes they had for a short time especially the rare RS units
04:19:48 <sim-al2> Sounds like the Amtrak approach :p
04:20:02 <drac_boy> well for amtrak it was called "rainbow era" which was fitting enough
04:20:13 <sim-al2> Of course, I don;t think Amtrak ever had any Alcos
04:20:25 <drac_boy> anyway sim-a12 this was a lot of fun but I kinda should go to bed soon tho sorry? :)
04:20:41 <drac_boy> hmm alco and amtrak..one sec..
04:21:07 <sim-al2> Took Amtrak a long time to find a standard locomotivw with the F40PH
04:21:22 <sim-al2> Lots of interesting semi-failures
04:21:23 <drac_boy> two S2 too .. must had been for busy station shuntings
04:21:35 <drac_boy> anyway goodnight now .. talk again another time ;)
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15:14:58 <Samu> i just found something funny
15:15:32 <Samu> openttd listing in alphabetical order puts it like this: MogulAI, NoCAB, NoNoCAB
15:16:03 <Samu> lol, it's correct, it's M, not N
15:38:28 <Samu> I found a "not-really-a-bug"
15:39:07 <Samu> the finances window lists train, road, aircraft, ship in this order
15:39:25 <Samu> but everywhere else the order is train, road, ship, aircraft
15:41:41 <Samu> game settings also got this switched
15:41:53 <Samu> train, road, aircraft, ship
15:42:24 <Samu> for breakdowns, and max no of vehicles
16:26:33 <Samu> just started testing the new versions of WmDOT and AIAI
16:28:04 <Samu> road vehicles AIAI v97, trains AIAI v97, aircraft AIAI v97, Original ships WmDOT v14, NPF ships WmDOT v14, YAPF ships WmDOT v14
16:28:28 <Samu> let's hope my system doesn't crash
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17:59:51 <argoneus> good afternoon train friends
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19:07:55 <argoneus> I was always wondering
19:08:04 <argoneus> is there a particular reason openttd uses squirrel and not lua/python?
19:08:12 <argoneus> like, is there more to it than "preference"
19:13:38 <Rubidium> object oriented and relatively small
19:13:52 <Alberth> a working implementation helps too
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19:49:26 <Samu> whatever... what's a garbage collector?
19:49:30 <Alberth> something with curiosity being stronger than you?
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20:09:39 <Samu> well, uh... i give up trying to understand what's a garbage collector
20:10:01 <andythenorth> don’t they just sweep up dead objects?
20:10:04 <andythenorth> and free memory?
20:10:07 <Alberth> it's not a simple subject, I am afraid
20:10:37 <andythenorth> surely it’s something like checking there are no inbound pointers to an allocated range
20:10:42 <Alberth> it is, but you must understand what a dead object is, then :)
20:10:45 * andythenorth never programmed
20:11:15 <Alberth> oh dear, who wrote all that Python code then? :o
20:11:29 <andythenorth> that’s not programming
20:11:34 <andythenorth> that’s devloloper
20:12:23 <Samu> i remember i was able to cause openttd to crash with tons of NoCABs and executing a sendmap to a player joining the game, and someone mentioned it was the garbage collector
20:13:49 <Samu> i couldn't replicate the bug :(
20:14:13 * andythenorth has never ever used a formal debugger
20:14:27 <andythenorth> more proof that is devloloper
20:14:54 <Samu> i was always a memory error
20:15:46 <Rubidium> a garbage collector is really easy; imagine cleaning food and whenever you know you're not going to use the part of the food anymore throw it away. This is effectively manual "garbage" management. On the other hand, just keep cleaning stuff and once in a while pick out everything that you're not going to use anymore. This is like garbage collecting. With the former you always need to know whether you kee
20:15:52 <Rubidium> p using it, with the latter you do not. However, with the former you always know how much time there is between peeling two potatos whereas with garbage collection you do not. After all, you might not collect the garbage between peeling the two potatos, but occasionally you have to because the place becomes unwieldy and then the time between peeling those two potatos becomes really large
20:17:02 <Rubidium> ofcourse the intricacies are more complicated, but the general idea is really simple
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20:20:47 * andythenorth should add garbage collectors to Road Hog
20:21:25 <Alberth> there is waste cargo?
20:22:12 <andythenorth> my three wheel truck is still broken
20:23:10 <Samu> what is common between lzma and garbage collector?
20:23:43 <Alberth> they can be executed by a cpu
20:23:45 <Samu> they don't like each other very seldomly
20:23:52 <Samu> and crash openttd server
20:25:28 <Alberth> sounds possible at least
20:25:38 <Alberth> save is done in a different thread
20:26:11 <Alberth> maybe lzma isn't thread-safe?
20:26:17 * andythenorth could play MP game, or work on something like Road Hog
20:26:24 <andythenorth> or have dinner and go to sleep :P
20:27:02 <Alberth> MP game may be a bit late-ish, unless you have a ready map
20:28:16 <Samu> think it was a crash on "free", something related to freeing something from memory twice
20:32:05 <Samu> hmm, crash would happen on ntdll i think
20:32:28 <andythenorth> supermop: I probably can’t give it enough attention tonight :)
20:32:44 <Alberth> ah, I remember seeing that here, and elsewhere, but ntdll is not part of openttd
20:32:50 <supermop> i am at work, so i probably shouldn't
20:33:16 <andythenorth> if we want to win that SV save, we need about 5 people playing
20:33:20 <andythenorth> otherwise not a chance :)
20:33:55 <supermop> that little valley is a pain to fit vehicle factories into
20:36:25 <Samu> ah, free heap crash on ntdll
20:37:08 <Samu> yeah, it was something liek this
20:37:52 <supermop> i want to play some kind of game where no factories are randomly on top of a 6000 ft uninhabited plateau
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20:38:26 <supermop> and all the carnegies have built their steel mills as far from ore and coal as possibel
20:38:28 <andythenorth> supermop: that’s the best place for them
20:39:16 <supermop> i probably want more of a cartoon urban monorail gif than a game
20:39:42 <supermop> off to see radioheadd and kendrick lamar this weekend
20:43:40 <Samu> openttd was doing a free, then ntdll would crash on RtlpLowFragHeapFree i rememer
20:44:26 <Samu> sometimes it was lzma doing a free, sometimes it was an ai doing a free
20:44:37 <Samu> can they conflict with each other somehow?
20:45:08 <Milek7_> but free on what object?
20:47:30 <Samu> i don't know, can't recall
20:47:52 <Samu> it was during a big while loop
20:48:42 <Samu> can't remember about the lzma one
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20:51:40 <Samu> AI was computing his stuff, and this giant loop was taking place when it crashed
20:52:13 <Samu> as for the lzma, it was happening concurrently at the same time as this loop
20:53:18 <Samu> map was being sent over the network
20:58:06 <andythenorth> supermop: would it be more fun to play on a relatively flat map? o_O
21:19:37 <Milek7_> i wonder if there will be people who will want to play with ~15 daylength factor, so one game will be lasting around 3 weeks
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21:31:52 <supermop> i never really try that but maybe
21:46:40 <Samu> would that increase the autoclean too?
21:53:42 <Milek7_> Samu: i think that with 240 companies there won't be need for autocleaning
21:58:46 <Samu> you want to make openttd a bit more like an "open world" kind of game
22:02:46 <Samu> how many seconds would be 74*15
22:03:27 <supermop> what if towns were somehow responsive to cdist?
22:03:54 <supermop> like a town that become some major node, or better connected, will grow faster
22:04:05 <supermop> i wonder if a gs could do that
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22:12:38 <Alberth> supermop: like all the citybuilder scripts?
22:13:14 <supermop> those don't really have any knowledge or care of how well connected a city is
22:13:47 <Alberth> afaik they do react to cargo deliveries
22:14:48 <supermop> a city isolated on a desert island but with a good tram service will grow better than one in the center of the map with a train station that happens to have connections to every other town in the region
22:15:53 <Alberth> hmm, you cannot quite see origin of cargo
22:16:13 <supermop> Alberth: i mean to have growth depend not on total passenger numbers as much as either how well you can travel to other towns, or how many people flow through or change at the station
22:16:15 <Milek7_> GSStationList_CargoPlannedByFrom GSStationList_CargoPlannedByVia
22:16:28 <Alberth> maybe there are calls to look into cdist, originally for AIs, I think
22:16:49 <supermop> like, if we have large towns ABCD in corners of a square
22:16:57 <supermop> and tiny village x in the center
22:17:29 <supermop> most people living in A may want to go to B C or D for work or pleasure,
22:17:54 <supermop> but if they have to change trains at X, eventually a man will open a news stand there
22:17:58 <Milek7_> i'm working on something like that, but i lately don't have time for it
22:18:08 <supermop> then another will open a bar
22:18:28 <supermop> and maybe the railway hires more people to work at the station,
22:18:38 <supermop> then they want to live nearby
22:18:52 <supermop> and over time X becomes a major city itself
22:20:32 <supermop> cdist might have 1000 people waiting to transfer at x from a A-C train to a B-D train, but they have no effect on growth as they do not get delivered there
22:21:59 <supermop> maybe a GS could simulate, "this area has large flows through it, this would be a desirable town to live or work in" and then trigger growth there
22:24:57 <supermop> or just "this town has a lot of capacity from it to other towns - commuters will live here"
22:31:19 <Milek7_> currently requires FIRS
22:40:20 <supermop> its currently usable as a gS?
22:47:42 <supermop> assume there is not .en translation?
22:48:01 <supermop> the translation of the thread is readable
22:52:06 <Milek7_> script have english lang file (it is only 7 words currently, so no much to translate ;p)
22:55:40 <supermop> what folder do i save a gs into?
22:57:25 <supermop> ok looks good so far
23:00:02 <Milek7_> delivery of building materials (BDMT) into town
23:00:18 <Milek7_> in future this will be customizable, currently it is hardcoded into config.nut
23:23:16 <Samu> what goes in the head of openttd main devs when they review patches?
23:25:41 <Samu> do i have to go to #openttd.dev?
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23:49:12 *** sim-al2 is now known as Guest1213
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23:49:16 <FLHerne> Samu: It's a system to process small pixelated blue balls
23:55:28 <Samu> what happens to the patches on flyspray?
continue to next day ⏵
