IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-10-04
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00:00:31 <Samu> how much is Random() & 7
00:00:47 <Samu> what is this Random() doing here :(
00:05:16 <Samu> Random returned 4292697756 unsigned int
00:05:35 <DorpsGek> Samu: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
00:08:29 <Samu> and now scale it by map size
00:09:37 <FLHerne_> Samu: '& 7' means 'take the lower three bits'
00:09:46 <FLHerne_> So, random number from 0 to 7
00:10:41 <Samu> scaling 53 to map size, must find
00:12:05 <Samu> want to discover the highest value of "high" number of towns in 4096x4096 map
00:13:26 <Samu> ScaleByMapSize returned 13568 unsigned int
00:31:15 <Samu> 15000 seems like a good number
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00:49:44 <Samu> ok, 20000 is the better ratio
00:50:05 <Samu> 4096x4096 is 4 times bigger than 2048x2048
00:58:17 <goodger> to be pedantic it's only three times bigger
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01:09:44 <Samu> i can't manually set a value over 5000
01:10:40 <Samu> @calc (4096*4096)/(2048*2048)
01:12:46 <Samu> my main concern now is to find out if all these town name generators can create 20k names
01:15:57 <Samu> i think i need a super flat map to really create all 20k towns
01:27:37 <Samu> Milek7_: I'm getting weird errors in the dedicated server with AIs "dbg: [script] Next() is invalid as Begin() is never called"
01:28:08 <Samu> need to check if it's generated by the AI or some other type of error from openttd
01:30:27 <Samu> D:\OpenTTD\trunk\src\script\api\script_list.cpp(474): DEBUG(script, 0, "Next() is invalid as Begin() is never called");
01:31:21 <Samu> who uses this script_list thing
01:38:15 <Samu> there's not enough Austrian town names t.t
01:44:23 <Samu> i'm nearly brute forcing the generation of austrian town names
01:49:19 <Samu> actually can't go past 5409
01:49:30 <Samu> it's attempting to create 5410th austrian town
02:11:20 <Samu> something very strange is happening
02:11:42 <Samu> i can't generate a world with french town names, it gets stuck
02:12:38 <Samu> erm, nevermind, it created only 68, that's is too low
02:13:32 <Samu> i really thought it had stuck, lol
02:44:18 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
02:44:39 <goblin> dat priority... how does it work?
02:44:43 <goblin> I'm using path signals normally
02:45:01 <goblin> the wiki says something about "two-way pre-signals" (under the Basic Priority), but I can't find ones like that
02:45:29 <goblin> I only have Block, Entry, Exit and Combo signals
02:45:49 <goblin> and not really sure how to interpret that picture on the wiki
02:47:17 <supermop_> you dont really need it
02:47:25 <supermop_> priorities are kind of arcane
02:47:49 <supermop_> like most of the use cases for entry signals
02:49:19 <Eddi|zuHause> with "pre-signal" they probably mean "entry"
02:49:27 <goblin> oh. hm. So how do I... hm.
02:49:33 <supermop_> certain play styles that favor building tracks almost like circuit boards do some interesting things with them, but if you just want a good capacity rail line that wont jam up you dont really need priorities
02:49:47 <Eddi|zuHause> the naming was changed a few years back
02:49:51 <goblin> probably, yeah, but I'm having difficulty distinguishing it from others and guessing where do path-based ones go
02:50:05 <supermop_> and they will probably cause more problems than they solve
02:50:17 <supermop_> goblin: just use path everywhere
02:50:54 <goblin> supermop_, hm, ok, so when I'm merging something onto something with more traffic... how do I prevent that more-traffic path to become stopped?
02:51:01 <Sylf> Those people who talk a lot about priority mainly use block signals
02:51:16 <Sylf> path signals are rare use case for them
02:51:21 <supermop_> in a few places, like a bi-directional platform or center track use the two-way
02:51:36 <goblin> supermop_, right, yes, that's what I'm doing
02:51:39 <Sylf> path signals can be used to construct prio too
02:51:40 <supermop_> goblin: that is tricky
02:51:46 <goblin> only really use two-way path on terminus-style stations
02:51:58 <supermop_> but tbh the most effective way is scheduling, not priorities
02:52:11 <goblin> scheduling? Like, time tables?
02:52:40 <goblin> I have a very long bridge so I doubled the path before and after it
02:52:45 <supermop_> it is a lot of work on dense lines, but you can get it so that only one train is passing a junction at any time
02:53:00 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't need priorities for a doubled bridge
02:53:03 <goblin> and after the bridge, when 2 paths merge into one, everything slows down because the trains accelerate and then stop
02:53:39 <Sylf> that's totally not something you can solve with prio
02:53:42 <goblin> first the left one accelerates, then the right one, and it keeps flipping
02:53:51 <goblin> ok, cool, good to know :-)
02:53:56 <Eddi|zuHause> you've got an "evil mode" then
02:54:17 <Sylf> You need more capacity for the line overall, so the trains don't have to slow down at or around the bridges
02:54:24 <Eddi|zuHause> as soon as the first one slows down, you get this ripple effect that slows everything down
02:54:27 <supermop_> what you need is more spacing between trains, or double the whole line
02:54:29 <Sylf> assuming you're playing the coop style game
02:54:30 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to prevent that first slowdown
02:55:28 <goblin> can I read up about that? Preferably some article that knows about path signals? :-)
02:55:34 <supermop_> if the capacity of the single bridge is enough, then space out the trains so that they dont wait for it to clear. if that capacity is too low, the double the bridge
02:56:16 <goblin> supermop_, _more_ spacing? that's interesting... I always use 2 squares distance between signals, read it on a wiki somewhere
02:56:40 <goblin> I guess it's way too low
02:56:50 <supermop_> but i this case, a priority would at best doom one track to always be stuck waiting, at worst just give you your current problem but worse
02:56:53 <goblin> but the jam happens after the joiner after the bridge
02:56:59 <Eddi|zuHause> imho, 2 tiles is overkill, one train length usually works unless you try to pack really tight
02:57:15 <supermop_> goblin: no i mean how far apart are the trains in time
02:57:26 <Eddi|zuHause> might make it denser in areas with acceleration occuring
02:57:51 <supermop_> imagine you are standing at a real train station - do the trains come every 10 minutes, or every hour?
02:58:16 <supermop_> or do 6 come 1 minute apart and then none for 54 minutes?
02:59:08 <goblin> supermop_, well, yeah, the line is near its capacity, but I'm curious how to juice it up to the maximum ;-) manual scheduling for all those trains would be rather tedious I think
02:59:16 <supermop_> and if it is 6 trains per hour, your junction will work more smoothly if they have a regular spacing of time between them
02:59:39 <supermop_> goblin: if its fully saturated the only way is add another track
02:59:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i once had a maglev line that merged, and i had to do very exact timetabling to prevent slowdown from occuring at the merge
03:00:26 <supermop_> if you find you need 10 trains per hour, but they need to be 10 minutes apart, your only hope is a 2nd line
03:01:27 <goblin> supermop_, well, it's not fully saturated yet, it just saturates after the bridge, the rest is reasonably empty
03:02:17 <Eddi|zuHause> make sure the two paths over the bridge are exactly the same length
03:02:24 <goblin> okie, thanks a lot for all your help, I'll do the reading and come back :-)
03:02:36 <Eddi|zuHause> there should be no conflict on the merge
03:02:42 <supermop_> if the saturation is local, try a timetable - it isnt as hard as it looks
03:02:51 <Eddi|zuHause> as long as all trains enter at max speed
03:02:58 <Eddi|zuHause> the two paths are the same length
03:03:00 <supermop_> happy to give timetabling advice
03:03:05 <goblin> supermop_, but there's so many stations behind the bridge (before the jam happens)
03:03:06 <Eddi|zuHause> and there is no jam point beyond the bridge
03:03:52 <supermop_> tbh i find it really satisfying to get a bunch of timetabled trains optimized
03:04:24 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but creating timetables in complex networks is a nightmare
03:04:27 <supermop_> goblin: you can autofil with a train running to get a starting point to work from
03:04:57 <supermop_> goblin: do all of these trains follow the same route/have the same orders?
03:05:07 <Eddi|zuHause> there should be an "instant" autofill that just makes a calculation of track length and acceleration
03:05:24 <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: man that would be great
03:06:07 <supermop_> or a night/non revenue service mode where you can test a new train over the line without wasting 2 years
03:07:18 <goblin> some of them load wood, some of them coal, and some receive oil transfers
03:07:19 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: that's called reloading
03:12:38 <goblin> it's doing some kinda weird look-ahead priority with path signals I think, but I'm not quite getting it
03:15:23 <Sylf> actually, coop's stance is that there is no one-size-fits-all solution to anything
03:15:48 <goblin> yeah but I'd like to learn /at least/ one solution ;-)
03:16:12 <Sylf> the best solution is to let people see the actual problem via multi player or sharing the game sav
03:19:12 <goblin> I mean, I know I should probably just double the line and all
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03:19:26 <goblin> but it doesn't satisfy my curiosity about all this priority stuff
03:20:24 <Sylf> Priority is not the tool to fix a slow down at a double bridge.
03:20:32 <Sylf> That much I can say definitively.
03:21:05 <Sylf> beyond that, priority is all about learning how pre-signals work
03:22:08 <goblin> right, but the link to Destructive Interference mentions only one solution to the problem and that solution is based on priority :-D
03:22:33 <goblin> so, aside from increasing the capacity of the line, are there /other/ solutions?
03:22:49 <Sylf> it may have worked for that particular case. That's about all
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03:23:23 <Sylf> make sure 2 paths lengths are absolutely the same, including exact count of straight and diagonal tracks
03:23:54 <Sylf> and make sure that trains just don't slow down on the congested lines
03:24:05 <goblin> oh, they most certainly aren't
04:45:02 <supermop_> Sylf: do the pf penalties have to be exactly equal?
04:45:49 <Eddi|zuHause> no, the vehicle steps, not the pathfinder penalties
04:45:59 <supermop_> doesn't a train on line ahead weigh enough to overcome any slightly higher bits of the empty line?
04:47:25 <Eddi|zuHause> if the lines have different numbers of steps, then a train taking the shorter route will run into the previous train taking the longer route, forcing him to stop
04:47:58 <Eddi|zuHause> and once a train has to stop, you have "lost"
04:48:23 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no way out of that other than stopping all trains and emptying the line, then starting up again
04:49:20 <Eddi|zuHause> note that straight vehicle steps do not equal diagonal vehicle steps
04:49:30 <Eddi|zuHause> so you need to have the same number of diagonal trackbits
04:53:58 <supermop_> wouldn't the lengths need to be vastly different to be meaningful?
04:54:28 <Eddi|zuHause> no, if your trains are tightly packed, even small differences can have this impact
04:54:34 <supermop_> surely both trains would reach a station or something before they had to merge again?
04:55:18 <Eddi|zuHause> this is about a doubled bridge, not a station
05:03:15 <Sylf> the pf penalty of red signal is probably bigger than any other form of pf penalties from multiple bridges/tunnels, extra slopes etc
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15:20:31 <goblin> Trains can make one 45° turn without slowing down.
15:20:59 <Eddi|zuHause> they can also make two opposite 45° turns without slowing down
15:21:21 <goblin> ^ doesn't seem to be the case for me, I have an AsiaStar locomotive with 8 wagons, and it slows down from 265 to about 200km/h on a 45deg turn
15:22:10 <Eddi|zuHause> are you using realistic acceleration?
15:22:11 <peter1138> "new" or "old" acceleration?
15:22:28 <peter1138> heh, it's "realistic" of course haha
15:22:54 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: "new" and "old" are even worse names than "realistic"
15:23:02 <goblin> oops sorry :-) yeah the setting wasn't changed on that save, sorry, was the old one
16:17:22 <argoneus> good afternoon train friends
16:18:22 <Wolf01> So, it's morning or afternoon?
16:26:52 <Eddi|zuHause> schrödinger's noon
16:27:30 <supermop__> then i can believe its 18:30 and go home
16:28:00 <Eddi|zuHause> well, post-fact society is the new trend
16:28:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "felt" reality is more important than "facts"
16:29:02 <Eddi|zuHause> people "feel" like crime is rising, even though statistics say it's been consistently dropping in the last 20 years
16:32:46 <Wolf01> I feel like I'm alone :(
16:45:20 <goodger> people feel like the UK is disadvantaged by the lisbon treaty
16:45:30 <goodger> but that's mostly because they have no idea what it says
16:52:08 <Samu> wrightai is the most disasterous AI
16:52:32 <Samu> aircraft disasters everywhere
16:52:38 <Samu> uses big planes on small airports
16:54:24 <Samu> unrealistic acceleration
16:55:20 <Eddi|zuHause> treaties like that are like program code, nobody involved ever reads the whole thing, just the excerpts that concern them
16:56:22 <Eddi|zuHause> like, nobody in here ever read the ENTIRETY of the openttd code
17:01:46 <supermop__> Eddi|zuHause: last week congress here passed a law that apparently only one senator really read
17:01:49 <goodger> welp, hintjens is dead
17:02:09 <goodger> to which I say: bugger.
17:02:13 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop__: the surprise here is that they actually passed a law at all :p
17:02:32 <supermop__> even though the white house, judiciary, military, and most gov't agencies pleaded with them not to pass it
17:02:57 <goodger> justice against sponsors of terrorism bill?
17:03:28 <supermop__> and then immediately congress complained that they didn't know about these unintended consequences and that the white house didn't warn them enough about it
17:03:38 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop__: that's also one of the cases where the "feeling" that these people try to talk them out of it reinforces the will to actually pass it
17:03:44 <goodger> justice against sponsors of terrorism bill.
17:04:11 <goodger> mcdonnell will blame obama for anything, including not vetoing something strongly enough, or something
17:04:35 <supermop__> so now republicans get to sit back and watch as all the soldiers they send to far away countries get put on trial and imprisoned there
17:04:51 <goodger> wouldn't that be something
17:05:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not only about soldiers, it's mainly about capital investments
17:06:12 <Eddi|zuHause> "wait, your multinational company has a subsidiary that builds drone parts? your drone shot this wedding ceremony, we confiscate all your multi-million assets"
17:06:40 <supermop__> but the republicans like to scream so much about how they love to protect the troops
17:06:59 <Eddi|zuHause> it would be really funny if that actually happened on a large scale
17:07:14 <goodger> not sure how they think they can claim that, considering more american soldiers are diagnosed with PTSD than actually fight
17:07:29 <supermop__> Eddi|zuHause: that amount of complex thought is too much for most of these congressmen to wrap their heads around
17:07:33 <Eddi|zuHause> goodger: again, facts are irrelevant
17:07:58 <Eddi|zuHause> goodger: it's about portraying this feeling of "protecting the troops" to people that are not involved with the troops
17:12:58 <Samu> the index 'Contains' does not exist - i lol'ed
17:14:24 <supermop__> keep hoping that this election will destroy that party, but i keep being disappointed
17:16:12 <goblin> changing signal spacing from 2 to 6 did introduce jams on my test track, so it does matter :-)
17:16:22 <goblin> (using length 5.0 trains)
17:18:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i said place signals denser in areas with acceleration (like after a merge, or after a station)
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17:18:53 <goblin> Eddi|zuHause, that test track was just a loop with nothing to slow the trains down
17:19:13 <Eddi|zuHause> well, once one train slows down, all the trains slow down
17:20:09 <Eddi|zuHause> if that occurs on an otherwise block-free network, you have too many trains
17:20:28 <goblin> yup. But if there's more space for it to accelerate (or rather, more space between signals), that alleviates the problem
17:21:04 <goblin> well, the number of trains was kept constant for the duration of the experiment ;-)
17:24:08 <goblin> add a 16th train, jams start
17:24:22 <goblin> change the signal spacing to 6, jams start with 15 trains as well
17:26:00 <goblin> looks like the "Long Reserve PBS Signal" feature request will solve my problem :-)
17:26:36 <goblin> "Signals in tunnels and bridges" would be awesome too
17:28:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i never said "it makes no difference"... the difference is just pretty small
17:29:37 <goblin> ah, yeah, well, agreed, the jams weren't too horrible so it would probably flow well at 13 or 14 trains
17:30:39 <goblin> still, that track visually looks like it could handle more. If the trains accelerated together as a group, then maybe...
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18:01:55 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: does this apply to gender identity as well
18:02:05 <argoneus> that you "believe" you're a girl even though you have a different arsenal
18:03:29 <argoneus> not that there's anything inherently wrong with it
18:03:32 <argoneus> just seems odd is all
18:05:11 <goodger> argoneus: I have a couple of particularly loathsome acquaintances to whom you should say that
18:05:27 <goodger> I mean, I could do with a good laugh
18:06:21 <argoneus> I don't want to pick fights for no reason
18:06:37 <argoneus> it's just like my opinion
18:09:28 <Samu> i just completed a test of 37 AIs using default out-of-the-box installed openttd
18:09:42 <Wolf01> <argoneus> that you "believe" you're a girl even though you have a different arsenal <- like being an apache helicopter?
18:10:09 <Wolf01> It looks like thats the trend of this year
18:11:04 <supermop> Wolf01: there have been plenty of trans identifying people here throughout the 20th century
18:11:31 <argoneus> the approach to them was usually "mate you have a problem" instead of "you're so brave!" though
18:11:40 <argoneus> but I digress, this is a channel about trains
18:12:35 <Wolf01> I like trains and trams, but also transport... not really much trans... but that's my opinion
18:12:53 <argoneus> eh, they're nice people for the most part, just like everyone else
18:13:18 <Wolf01> Unless they do it for fame
18:14:07 <Wolf01> I have gay friends, but they won't attend at a gay pride, because that's a carnival
18:16:09 <goodger> I am pretty sure my husband is gay
18:16:44 <Wolf01> Btw, playing with water time :P
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18:40:22 <goblin> maybe trains have gender identity too?
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19:43:21 <Samu> airport efficiency, I don't think this makes much sense
19:44:12 <Alberth> we need new airports, that you can build like trains
19:44:27 <Alberth> ie build run-way, and terminals
19:44:41 <Alberth> heliports, hangrs, etc
19:45:59 <Samu> well i'm still gonna post this "airport efficiency" score
19:46:58 <Samu> as for canal efficiency... maybe in the future ais will actually make canals
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19:56:09 <Samu> very interesting idea indeed
20:11:28 <Samu> aiai v95 is better than aiai v97, something's gone wrong
20:11:55 <Samu> there's a clear road usage deficit with v97
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20:49:07 <Samu> some AIs actually do better with inflation turned on
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21:11:15 <user52341> hi there, can i play openttd without mouse? only keyboard.
21:12:19 <Alberth> dragging tracks, building bridges etc is going to be a major problem
21:12:47 <Alberth> maybe the mobile version would be better suited?
21:13:08 <Alberth> don't know how they handle lack of mouse there, though
21:20:44 <Milek7_> Alberth: phones have touchscreens ;p
21:23:56 <Samu> oops, my counting of stations is bad
21:24:26 <Alberth> simplify your counting: 1, 2, many
21:25:00 <Samu> company lists 2 stations, but detailed performance rating counts 4 stations serviced
21:26:06 <Samu> nop, bus + truck stations count as 1 when listing, but counts as 2 in the detailed performance rating
21:26:44 <Samu> gelignAIte has a service rate of 200%
21:28:22 <Samu> think i'm gonna remove serviced stations from the score
21:30:11 <Samu> that is openttd counting :(
21:33:33 <Samu> i'm finding more flaws on my scoring method, :(
21:35:38 <Samu> right, one is the income, the other is the profit, and I'm doing income/profit
21:35:47 <Samu> gelignAIte gets an efficiency of 124%
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21:37:30 <Alberth> so 1 profit and 100000 income gives me 1000% ?
21:38:05 <Alberth> and 0 profit can't be calculated :)
21:38:53 <Samu> a better way to do it would be (income-runningcost)/profit, but i'm not in the mood to go back and fix everything
21:39:51 <Alberth> not profit / income ?
21:41:10 <Alberth> although you can't get more profit than income :p
21:41:22 <Alberth> so you never get above 100%
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22:45:55 <Samu> well, i better start fixing this score
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22:46:16 <Samu> sucks to re-do everything i've done, but it's for the better
22:54:06 <Samu> there's a miscalculation happening within openttd
22:55:22 <Samu> @calc 13220+12082+9859+5691+4535+4166
22:56:03 <Samu> income - running cost = profit?
22:57:15 <Samu> "profit last year vehicle 1 + profit last year vehicle 2 + profit last year vehicle n + ... + profit last year vehicle 6" != "income last year - running cost last year"
22:58:15 <Rubidium> Samu: add 0.7 + 0.7 + 0.7 and give the sum. Now write that rounded to the nearest integer
23:01:31 <Rubidium> so... 0.7 + 0.7 + 0.7 = 2.1, but if I write it down roundest to the nearest integer I get 1 + 1 + 1 = 2
23:02:16 <Rubidium> oh bugger... I made a miscalculation... or didn't I?
23:03:44 <Rubidium> it's not the fault of integers
23:04:16 <Rubidium> it works the same with floating point numbers, e.g. 0.07 + 0.07 + 0.07 = 0.21, but rounded to one decimal it becomes 0.1 + 0.1 + 0.1 = 0.2
23:04:25 <Rubidium> it's the rounding that happens
23:04:54 <Rubidium> and for fun... all floating point maths rounds some way or another
23:07:05 <DorpsGek> Samu: 0.999899108116
23:08:06 <Samu> its much easier for me to do income - running cost than calculate all vehicles profits of last year
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23:18:22 * pinkypie smiles and waves!!! like to chat.....
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