IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-09-15
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00:01:03 <Samu> counting canal tiles under industry tiles is a little bit complicated
00:01:41 <Samu> when an industry is placed, the code clears whatever it is in the tile, including canals
00:02:01 <Samu> when a canal is cleared, infrastructure.water is decreased
00:02:53 <Samu> so the not-so-elegant solution i found was
00:03:37 <Samu> after MakeIndustry, increase infrastructure.water again
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00:16:37 <Samu> there are no owners on industry tiles
00:16:58 <Samu> grr this is doable, but quite delicate
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02:10:30 <Samu> i got trouble with removing unused buoys
02:15:05 <Samu> when a company bankrupts, i can't remove buoys by the owner of the tile under the buoy
02:15:41 <Samu> but now... i need a workaround
02:16:27 <Samu> what gets removed first? vehicles or stations?
02:34:31 <Samu> vehicles get removed first t.t
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03:57:50 <Lejving> holy shit V453000 I just found the openttdcoop wiki, your junctions and stations are just so fucking insane
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12:48:43 <Flygon> Wolf01, I have zero idea what you just said about anything
12:48:52 <Flygon> That's how much I've avoided Win10 @_@
12:52:44 <Flygon> Though, my main concerns are the forced updates
13:08:39 <Samu> openttd isn't ready for windows 10, needs a compatibility thing
13:08:39 <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> When did computer software become "desktop apps"? <-- i don't think that development was avoidable...
13:09:10 <Samu> then it works flawlessly
13:10:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the main problem is that the gap between people who write software and people who use software widens, making it more difficult to cross over. computer software becomes "magic" for most people
13:12:44 <Samu> bah nobody answered me yesterday night
13:17:49 <Samu> i think i've dealt with buoys bankrupting
13:19:44 <Samu> only a few buoys bankrupt, right?
13:32:59 <argoneus> good afternoon train friends
13:33:02 <argoneus> anyone here using windows 10?
13:33:15 <argoneus> wondering if I should upgrade from 7, the ubuntu subsystem thing looks cool
13:38:27 <Flygon> Wolf01: Scuse the delay, been trying to fix some computer issues <_>
13:38:55 <peter1138> buoys bankrupt? what?
13:41:03 <Flygon> Eddi|zuHause: I have the opposite problem. Higher level programming languages look like magic to me. And higher level dev tools.
13:41:11 <Flygon> I look at Unity and think "HOW IS THAT CPU NOT DEAD"
13:42:10 <Wolf01> <Samu> openttd isn't ready for windows 10, needs a compatibility thing <- WTF?
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13:43:19 <Wolf01> argoneus, yeah, some days ago I used the Ubuntu subsystem to download a repository, as the Git for Windows doesn't seem to work well
13:43:55 <Wolf01> And SVN doesn't know about Git submodules
13:49:47 <Wolf01> Bah, another site RSS broken
13:54:32 <argoneus> Wolf01: is win10 good then?
13:55:14 <Flygon> I forgot how popular VB6 is still
13:55:25 <argoneus> Wolf01: can you do like
13:55:29 <argoneus> code in VS and compile with G++?
13:55:47 <argoneus> okay you convinced me
13:57:04 <Wolf01> You can't use GCC compiler on VS, but you can use it externally
13:57:16 <Wolf01> But still develop on VS
13:58:19 <Wolf01> Also, since I'm a Lumia user, I can benefit from the integration (save a login on Edge desktop and have the login available on phone) and share AppData between desktop and phone (like my RSS reader app does)
14:14:30 <Samu> Wolf01: needs some dpi scalling stuff
14:15:02 <Samu> else mouse scrolling is erratic
14:15:14 <Samu> mouse positioning issues
14:15:15 <Wolf01> You set high DPI on windows?
14:15:36 <Wolf01> So, every other "old" game does need a fix
14:16:08 <Wolf01> I had that problem on StarCraft
14:18:29 <Samu> speaking of mouse positioning
14:19:06 <Samu> a recent patch about dragging vehicles over the selling icon on depots is kinda bugged when the vehicled is dragged
14:19:30 <Samu> the cursor is mispositioned
14:22:59 <Samu> i tried selling a very large ship
14:23:11 <Samu> Squid ate fish FISH 2.0.2
14:24:37 <Samu> unsure is it's windows issue only
14:26:28 <Samu> peter1138: buoys bankrupt, i mean when buoys are placed on canals, and a company bankrupts, the buoy is removed is it's not being in use
14:26:47 <Samu> the buoy is removed if* typo
14:27:31 <Samu> tile owner of a buoy is the same as the owner of the water tile
14:27:44 <Samu> it's some weird stuff openttd is doing
14:28:17 <Samu> i'm trying to maintain this functionality now that I can set canal owners independently
14:29:21 <Samu> problem i am having is that tile owner of buoys is OWNER_NONE now
14:29:42 <Samu> a bankrupt won't remove buoys like it used to
14:30:07 <Samu> i am trying a workaround, and so far it seems to be working
14:30:12 <Samu> doing what it used to do
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14:38:18 <Samu> before the if (!IsTileOwner(tile, old_owner)) return; line
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15:31:00 <Wolf01> Eddi, in plain english TL;DR?
15:32:42 <V453000> Pay taxes and shut the fuck up.
15:33:50 <V453000> also how are them biterz?
15:35:24 <Wolf01> No idea, the game has been sitting there for 2-3 days
15:37:35 <Wolf01> Mmmh, I'm not able to parse a website... it comes with a really strange encoding which is undetectable
15:37:53 <Wolf01> But the browser shows it without problems
15:38:17 <Wolf01> Maybe some gzip compression, but it should be handled automatically by the library
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16:15:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i only know Thunderstruck...
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16:26:00 <Wolf01> Mmmh, server dead again, manual action required :P
17:03:13 <Samu> there are two behaviours for placing water structures
17:03:42 <Samu> dock and ship depot have different ways to check for water
17:04:19 <Samu> docks want the the tile to really be of type water
17:04:37 <Samu> ship depots wants the tile to have water on the ground
17:04:58 <Samu> there are objects that can be placed on water
17:05:33 <Samu> i think has water on the ground is a better behaviour
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17:46:41 <Samu> dock code is .. quite diversified
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17:52:42 <Alberth> likely, there are more such places in openttd code :)
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17:55:52 <Samu> cost of placing a dock was not counting the price for clearing the slope tile
18:01:29 <Alberth> can you place a dock on anything not-clear?
18:01:40 <Alberth> not sure I ever tried that
18:11:21 <Samu> cost.AddCost(ret); thingy
18:14:11 <Samu> yes, it's there now, building with medium costs on a coastal tile is £390 now, up from £350
18:20:56 <Samu> CmdBuildDock code is now similar in behaviour to that of ship depot
18:22:32 <Samu> CmdBuildBuoy code needs to be adjusted too
18:23:59 <Samu> buoys can be placed on anyone's canal already
18:24:15 <Samu> and anyone can remove the buoys
18:37:04 <Samu> why would you ensure no vehicle on ground on dock tiles?
18:37:15 <Samu> there is no tracks on the dock tiles
18:37:47 <Samu> think i can safely delete this part of the code, unless im missing something
18:38:09 <Samu> but the code checks the 1st and 2nd tiles
18:39:02 <Alberth> you may want to check the commit message that was given while the check was added, that might gives some clues (sometimes)
18:40:13 <Samu> hmm station_cmd.cpp is a biiig file,
18:40:24 <Samu> how do i check commit message stuff?
18:41:37 <Alberth> yep, only newgrf.cpp is bigger in "src" (by a factor 2, even)
18:42:23 <Alberth> check when the lines were last changed (with "blame"), check if that commit just modified them or really added them
18:42:59 <Alberth> if modified, check out the parent of that commit, repeat the steps
18:43:41 <Alberth> if you have a nice version control gui, like thg, you can do this in the gui
18:45:23 <Samu> i use tortoise svn, not sure if this is what u mean
18:45:40 <Alberth> never mind, it's not likely to work
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19:37:40 <NGC3982> What did i just do to ECS
19:38:06 <NGC3982> A newly created train visited a Steel Plant and it is spontaniously creating coal, without something creating coal.
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20:18:57 <Samu> is this the blame thing, Alberth ?
20:21:32 <Samu> author alberth <alberth@openttd.org>
20:21:38 <Samu> you're the guy to blame then?
20:22:25 <Alberth> If I committed a line of code, and that line appears to be faulty, then it is said I am to blame for that line
20:22:50 <Macha> Because that's what svn called it that. SVN probably called it that because of cvs (I don't actually know if cvs blame existed). And the original one was less diplomatic with nming that command :p
20:23:07 <Macha> Because that's what svn called it that. SVN probably called it that because of cvs (I don't actually know if cvs blame existed). And the original one was less diplomatic with nming that command :p
20:23:15 <Macha> (Resending since Samu dropped)
20:25:13 <Samu> ships can never go into the tile1, tile2 is questionable
20:25:38 <Alberth> If you look at the patch of that commit, you can see I just changed the line, I didn't add it new
20:25:54 <Alberth> so, someone before my change added it
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20:26:35 <Alberth> you have to look at the parent revision, and go back further, until you find the commit that really added the line
20:29:40 <andythenorth> @seen BADFEATURES
20:29:40 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: I have not seen BADFEATURES.
20:33:47 <Alberth> apparantly, v8 had more than just bad features :p
20:34:48 <Alberth> maybe add some zoomed 8bpp sprites? :)
20:35:06 <andythenorth> I should redraw everything at 2x
20:35:12 <andythenorth> I considered teach PIL to do it
20:35:43 <Alberth> there is a 2x transform algorithm, that'd be simpler :p
20:35:56 <andythenorth> why take the easy route? :P
20:36:10 <andythenorth> I could find some really complex rules about interpolating missing pixels
20:36:24 <Alberth> I am sure you could :D
20:36:29 <andythenorth> based on the known ranges of colours in the palette (most are 8 similar shades)
20:36:44 <andythenorth> also detecting ‘this is a brick wall’ etc
20:36:59 <Alberth> haha, context-aware zooming :)
20:37:21 <andythenorth> does BRIX have enough BAD FEATURES?
20:37:29 <V453000> it doesn't have features :D
20:37:43 <andythenorth> ULTIMATE BAD FEATURE
20:37:47 <V453000> only parameters for disabling some sprites
20:38:00 <Alberth> could be, but it's not a bad feature, due to lack of features :)
20:38:01 <V453000> no, it means it's the ideal newgrf
20:38:53 <andythenorth> ultimate newgrf is 4,500 vehicles
20:38:56 <Samu> i went all the way back to 2007-01-10
20:39:05 <Samu> ensurenovehicle on ground is there
20:39:06 <andythenorth> each one an individual example of one type of engine
20:39:12 <andythenorth> but with accurate numbers and livery
20:39:50 <Alberth> Samu: in r1? wow, that means most likely it was in the original program
20:39:56 <Samu> there is no more history before 2007-01-10...
20:40:44 <Alberth> we lost about 900 revisions before r1, so theoretically, it could be added there, but not likely
20:40:48 <Samu> it was the first time station_cmd.cpp was created?
20:40:57 <Eddi|zuHause> <V453000> no, it means it's the ideal newgrf <-- that's always the "solve all humanities problems by killing all humans" approach that is featured in so many science fiction movies
20:41:19 <Alberth> Samu: euhm, it was a .c file first, the file got renamed alomng the way
20:42:29 <V453000> it's valid Eddi|zuHause
20:42:59 <V453000> make everyone happy by killing the unhappy
20:43:03 <Alberth> and it makes great movies :p
20:44:40 <Samu> 2004-08-09 truelight (svn r1)
20:46:08 <supermop> andythenorth: photoshop -> image size -> 200% -> bicubic smoother -> good enough?
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20:46:58 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: that probably has issues with transparency
20:47:40 <Samu> it's there on r1, what does this mean?
20:48:16 <Samu> no one knew ships couldn't go through docks?
20:48:33 <V453000> andythenorth: just upscale to 400% with nearest neighbour and declare it x4 zoom
20:48:39 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: like with road tiles you want to treat it as if the road continues on the other side, but with vehicles you need the transparent pixels treated as "not there at all"
20:49:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Macha: has the same issues
20:50:08 <andythenorth> it still needs to look pixelated
20:50:12 <Eddi|zuHause> we used to have a hq2x patch that worked on the whole screen, but that had the problem that it distorted the text a bit
20:50:17 <andythenorth> that means drawing pixel style, but bigger
20:50:38 <Samu> is there other vehicles that can walk into the dock pier?
20:52:42 <supermop> V453000: are your little trains now using layers for cc?
20:52:57 <V453000> not currently, BRIX is graphics only
20:53:15 <V453000> but the new train set will probably
20:53:32 <V453000> andythenorth: nearest neighbour! :P
20:53:35 <supermop> could 'shading' be added as a layer?
20:54:24 <supermop> doesnt make sense for rendered sprites that much but..
20:54:43 <Samu> okay let me ask in a different way
20:55:03 <Samu> have you ever had docks not being removed from the world when a company bankrupted?
20:56:18 <supermop> what if i draw a little train in 12 different liveries or whatever, and instead of getting the shading right on each one there is some kind of mask or layer that puts the same shading on over whatever the background colors are
20:56:27 <Samu> if i understand the code, vehicles are removed first
20:56:35 <Samu> then stations are removed
20:56:44 <V453000> ah I see what you want to do
20:56:47 <Samu> but if there are more ships, of other companies
20:57:12 <V453000> I think you could pretty much do that with just the mask working correctly
20:57:15 <Samu> the code is gonna try to remove the dock and check if there's a vehicle on those tiles
20:57:40 <Samu> code isn't prepared to ignore vehicle checking on bankrupt
20:57:58 <Samu> if you never seen docks staying behing when a company bankrupts
20:58:05 <Samu> then these 3 lines can be removed
20:58:08 <supermop> then you could have the insane possibility to change light via newgrf param? australian sun from north, sunset light low in the west, night time shading overall
20:58:17 <V453000> supermop: the mask mostly influences only the colour, but the brighness of the sprite under it has big effect
20:58:30 <V453000> the brightness does change a bit with different 8bpp colours used, but still
20:59:03 <supermop> this idea popped into my head while walking home last night looking at pretty sky
20:59:07 <V453000> probably more reasonable to just render it as separate sprites as a whole supermop :D
20:59:32 <supermop> buildings always look better between 16:00 and 20:00
20:59:43 <supermop> not 10:30 or whatever tt is
21:00:19 <supermop> but sometimes british trains look cuter in late morning sun
21:00:35 <supermop> and american trains look more romantic at golden hour
21:01:26 <supermop> also - densha de D grf with trailing light vehicle effects?
21:01:42 <supermop> and sparks flying from wheels in turns
21:05:38 <V453000> I am curious to see your product supermop :P
21:06:00 <supermop> of the bathroom hardware?
21:08:48 <supermop> or the concrete flower pot?
21:09:10 <Alberth> no abstract flower pot?
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21:12:37 <andythenorth> what shall I call my new RV set?
21:14:02 <andythenorth> clearly it’s time to abandon Road Hog
21:16:09 <supermop> although that would be a secret ship set sold as an rv set?
21:16:24 <andythenorth> RH has hit the 80:20 software problem
21:16:45 <andythenorth> the remaining 20% won’t take 80% of the time
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21:17:33 <andythenorth> but I’m bored of it
21:17:44 <andythenorth> 80% of the problems were interesting 20% are boring
21:25:11 <andythenorth> silly pax vehicles
21:25:40 <supermop> andythenorth: i got a nice short of titanium ignots on a truck on there
21:26:20 <andythenorth> how much is one of those worth? o_O
21:31:20 <supermop> heavy enough that a flatbed can only carry two, not sure what market prices are today
21:31:52 <supermop> on that day i saw over 60 cars crashed or of the road on i-70 due to ice storm
21:32:00 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> 80% of the problems were interesting 20% are boring <-- and how does starting a new set solve that?
21:32:25 <supermop> so pretty good chance one of those would have rolled away into the woods
21:32:28 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: easy, I get to do the 80% interesting bits
21:32:37 <andythenorth> and the 20% gets kicked down the road
21:36:39 <andythenorth> partly, pax is very ‘meh'
21:36:48 <andythenorth> there’s no particular right or wrong to it
21:37:02 <andythenorth> transporting pax is only to keep town ratings up :P
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21:38:33 <Eddi|zuHause> solution: make separate passenger and freight sets
21:38:57 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a distinct lack of separately usable truck sets anyway
21:41:34 <Eddi|zuHause> those are not slugs
21:44:38 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that’s a solution, but who makes the pax set? :P
21:44:57 * andythenorth fears it’s ‘andythenorth ‘
21:45:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: does that matter?
21:45:23 <Eddi|zuHause> there are a lot of bus and tram sets out there that lack in truck refinement
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21:46:48 <andythenorth> I think they also lack in tram and bus refinement :P
21:47:37 <Eddi|zuHause> sure... different problems though :p
21:48:07 <Eddi|zuHause> solving different problems with the same software is a sign of bloatware
21:48:54 <andythenorth> I don’t think I can hide behind ‘bloatware is bad’ to defend myself from finishing the set
21:49:15 <supermop> tram stuck on insulator, so the following one had to ram it
21:50:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think "ram" is the correct way to describe this
21:50:47 <Eddi|zuHause> but, can't you just push the tram by hand? it's not that hard on a flat surface
21:51:08 <Eddi|zuHause> and on a non-flat surface you could just roll
21:53:37 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: apparently not. they had the one behind 'tap' the stuck one at very low speed and it still made a huge noise
21:54:27 <Eddi|zuHause> don't they have emergency-couplings at your place?
21:54:49 <supermop> 34 metric tons for that guy
21:55:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i believe our trams have that, you remove a front bit, pull out the coupling, and can mechanically couple two trams
21:55:28 <supermop> this was like 2 years ago when i lived in melbourne. never saw a coupler on a tram
21:55:36 <supermop> the new ones might have it
21:55:43 <Eddi|zuHause> (this is apparently easier than carrying a "proper" full coupling to the location)
21:56:03 <supermop> but these 80s ones only seem to have the anti-climber bar
21:56:09 <Eddi|zuHause> (the full coupling also has electric links)
21:56:31 <supermop> the melbourne trams also never run in multiple
21:56:50 <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably a difference... our trams were always meant to run in multiples
21:57:09 <supermop> so the new trams might have couplers, because they are based on regular combino or citadis or flexity trams
21:57:54 <supermop> but until about 1990 trams were built by a local company specifically for melbourne
21:58:32 <andythenorth> supermop: but are they 10/8, 12/8, 14/8 or 16/8? :P
21:58:48 <supermop> they do have heavy duty trucks there that i think can tow a tram
22:00:00 <supermop> but in this case, traffic was quickly backing up behind the tram, it is right at a square crossing (the insulator isolated the square)
22:00:42 <supermop> there was already 3 trams backed up behind, so they just got the cars out from between them, had all the passengers get off, then gave it a bump
22:08:36 <supermop> does newgrf spec allow for setting beer serving capacity in litres for trams?
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22:25:47 <andythenorth> option 1) all trams stay same length 1860-2010, and roughly same capacity
22:26:10 <andythenorth> option 2) trams get progressively longer 1860-2010 and capacity increases more substantially
22:26:15 <andythenorth> option 3) something else
22:37:54 <andythenorth> if in doubt, do a poll
22:39:40 <frosch123> 1860: 50 pax, 30 km/h; 2010: 300 pax, 80 km/h ?
22:41:02 <andythenorth> something like that
22:41:19 <andythenorth> large capacity increases seem to demand longer sprites also
22:43:34 * andythenorth needs to understand the station blocking behaviour a bit more
22:43:50 <andythenorth> there must be better and worse tram lengths
22:44:07 <andythenorth> or is that over-thinking it?
22:44:12 <berndj> is any of the "online content" that i can download in-game executable? i'm not a fan of downloading random arbitrary execution vectors
22:44:26 <berndj> or is it just graphics and declarative stuff?
22:45:52 <Alkel_U3> Afaik it can't just do arbitrary stuff
22:46:44 <andythenorth> I haven’t tried uploading anything malicious, but I don’t know how strictly bananas would check
22:47:30 <andythenorth> otoh you’re running openttd, which is an arbitrary attack vector also
22:48:18 <berndj> well that's at least a static threat; i'm running whatever debian offers me
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22:50:08 <sim-al2> There shouldn't be anything executible, just .grf and .tar
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22:58:03 <Eddi|zuHause> berndj: some of the content is squirrel scripts
23:00:39 <supermop> whenever i post something on forums these days i feel like an old man
23:00:53 *** Rubidium_ is now known as Rubidium
23:01:00 <Rubidium> anything that is downloadable and actually defines things to do runs that in effectively a virtual machine. Neither of those have any direct access to disk, network or other processes. I cannot guarantee that there is no way you cannot cause some buffer overflow somewhere that causes code execution, but that risk you also have with purely static data.
23:08:01 <Flygon> I thought Trams got more capacity through basically growing longer and gettng more space efficient
23:09:54 <Flygon> supermop: The Trams don't have any couplers. They basically have a bit underneath them that allows attaching a steel bar, that allows them to tow another Tram
23:09:56 <Flygon> But it is not a true coupler
23:11:42 <supermop> Flygon: yeah. when i saw that stuck one at gertrude and brunswick they didn't seem to have any inclination to wait for anyone come tow
23:12:13 <Flygon> As a personal note, it does bother me there is no spec for having couplers on
23:12:28 <Flygon> Considering Adelaide's classic Trams could always run in EMU configuation
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23:18:29 <Samu> waiting for an oil rig spawning
23:24:09 <Samu> i wish the debugger would show these values as binary
23:26:49 <berndj> Rubidium, ah, thanks, that's about the answer i was hoping for
23:29:08 <Samu> i wouldn't have to resort to a calculator for conversion
23:29:14 <glx> but those messages look like debug message generated by the game :)
23:30:26 <Samu> it's from the console window
23:30:55 <Samu> it opens up when visual studio launches Debug x64
23:32:28 <glx> console window is from openttf
23:34:11 <glx> anyway a calculator isn't required to convert hexa to bin, it's easily doable in head
23:35:58 <glx> advantage of hexa vs decimal
23:36:16 <glx> and the alignment when printed
23:36:54 <Samu> omg i catched an oil rig spawn, brb
23:41:14 <glx> the station is usable by everyone
23:45:45 <Flygon> I'm mildly surprised players aren't allowed to build OWNE_NONE infrastructure. On the other hand, that does kinda cheat out of Infra. Maintainence.
23:46:49 <glx> yeah build a full rail network with no running costs ;)
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