IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-09-11
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00:00:15 <glx> never use float math in openttd
00:00:16 <Samu> and 1.5 is the wrong value to use
00:00:51 <Samu> and the correct value is sqrt(2) after all, they're quite close
00:00:57 <Samu> but then how can i test ?
00:01:01 <Wolf01> I usually get spam about checking my home phone bill
00:01:02 <Samu> if i can't use float math?
00:01:29 <glx> you can test locally, but not in the final version
00:02:03 <glx> float math is highly platform dependant
00:02:07 <Samu> ah, oki, i will test then
00:10:06 <Samu> will use the nocab aircraft savegame for testing
00:12:01 <Samu> return dx < dy ? dx * IntSqrt(2) + dy : dx + dy * IntSqrt(2);
00:14:07 <Samu> no idea how it works though
00:14:49 <Samu> Radicand what is a radicant?
00:16:38 <Samu> ah, think im doing it wrong
00:17:43 <Samu> return dx < dy ? IntSqrt(2) + dy : dx + dy * IntSqrt(2);
00:17:54 <Samu> return dx < dy ? IntSqrt(dx) + dy : dx + IntSqrt(dy);
00:18:59 <Samu> nop, it's not, omg damn it
00:20:05 <Samu> return dx < dy ? dx / IntSqrt(dx) + dy : dx + dy / IntSqrt(dy);
00:20:44 <Samu> i'm a terrible math dude
00:23:12 <Samu> return dx < dy ? dx / IntSqrt(2) + dy : dx + dy / IntSqrt(2);
00:24:17 <Wolf01> Instead of asking about 8192 different formulae, reason a bit on what you need to do
00:25:09 <Samu> i want a dx / 1.4142etc... aka square root of 2
00:28:26 <Samu> yes, but i am wondering what result am i gonna get
00:28:38 <Samu> i am suspicious of that intsqrt functionality
00:29:14 <glx> I guess intsqrt does sqrt in a portable way :)
00:31:03 <Samu> IntSqrt returned 1 unsigned int
00:31:08 <Samu> ahaha are you kidding me
00:32:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess intsqrt(2) will be 1, though :p
00:33:00 <Wolf01> Or maybe an integer number between 1 and 2
00:36:50 <glx> * @return Rounded integer square root.
00:44:24 <Samu> i can't do this square root thing
00:46:46 <Samu> maximum value that uint works with?
00:48:54 <Samu> is that within uint range?
00:49:29 <_dp_> oh, sorry, UINT_MAX and it's platform dependant
00:52:16 <Samu> const uint BIGNUMBER = UINT_MAX; - let's see
00:52:58 <Samu> BIGNUMBER 4294967295 const unsigned int
00:54:33 <glx> yes and long long for 64 bits
00:58:40 <Samu> return dx < dy ? dx * 470832 / 665857 + dy : dx + dy * 470832 / 665857; looks so ugly
01:06:01 <Samu> this can't be right, grrr
01:07:13 <_dp_> ofc, you may as well try pi/2
01:09:49 <_dp_> oh, e / 2 is probably even better))
01:16:07 <Samu> return dx < dy ? dx - dx * 470832 / 665857 + dy : dx + dy - dy * 470832 / 665857;
01:18:22 <Samu> last try return dx < dy ? dx - (dx * 470832) / 665857 + dy : dx + dy - (dy * 470832) / 665857;
01:18:35 <Samu> if i dont get the aircraft profiting around 6000, i give up
01:20:16 <_dp_> Samu, it's the same formula
01:20:39 <_dp_> you just added redundant parentheses
01:21:08 <Samu> i dont understand what went wrong
01:21:48 <_dp_> Samu, what do you even want to achieve, start there
01:22:26 <Samu> 100 / 2 is what seemed best
01:22:37 <Samu> it gets an approximate income
01:22:46 <Samu> to that of my speed penalty patch
01:23:12 <Samu> but i was suspicious about something, when everyone was using 1.4142
01:23:27 <Samu> so i wanted to try sqrt(2), but i don't know how to do it
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01:25:07 <_dp_> Samu, and why are you using your other patch as a reference?
01:25:34 <Samu> because it could nearly achieve time travel parity on diagonals
01:26:22 <Samu> i want to try an alternative to the speed penalty, and went with a distance penalty calculation
01:27:16 <Samu> i also found out that for 2000 tiles, a train on diagonal needs only 396 days, but a train on axis would need 594 days
01:27:34 <Samu> and that the axis train was only doing 1333 tiles in 396 days
01:28:12 <Samu> now i want to calculate this "optimal" distance between the 2 stations
01:30:11 <Samu> i want 2000 tiles to be like 1333 tiles
01:30:31 <Samu> but vehicles also move 1.5x faster on diagonals
01:30:37 <_dp_> Samu, then compare profits of those two tranes, not with some arcane patch
01:33:20 <Samu> i can't compare the profits like that
01:34:56 <Samu> while the aircraft was doing about 9200 per trip on 1.6.1, on the spped penalty it was still doing about 9080 per trip, but this takes longer
01:36:13 <Samu> that dinstance penalty x/2 or y/2 seems to do what i'm looking for, but that's at a first glance
01:36:48 <Samu> 9 years of seeing the slow aircraft vs fast aircraft, the bank balance of both 1.6.1 and distance penalty was nearly close
01:37:30 <Samu> while one was profiting about 6xxx, the other was profiting 9080, and yet, after 9 years, the bank balance was not much different
01:37:56 <Samu> i still am suspicious that i am not quite there, that / 2 is not yet the target
01:39:59 <Samu> over 15 years, there was a difference, albeit minimal, it was becoming apparent. Seems that the penalty needs to be slightly adjusted, but not really sure what to do
01:43:24 <Samu> it would still be a problem for road vehicles either way
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02:00:24 <Samu> i tried admiralai, which is the aircraft winner with HUGE profits
02:00:52 <Samu> forced dummyai into his company, let the game run for 2 years
02:04:29 <Samu> darn imgur doesn't accept copy paste anymore
02:09:06 <Samu> i dont get spectacle, i need to install?
02:09:15 <goodger> mr sniffle looks like a badass
02:10:27 <Samu> imgur used to allow pasting images directly from the clipboard, but seems bugged since the big update for windows 10
02:10:57 <Samu> now i got to save the image on paint, browse upload it
02:11:29 <Samu> or give a gigantic link from onedrive
02:11:34 <_dp_> Samu, I just tested it and my formula is correct, if it's not for you then fix your tests :p
02:11:54 <Samu> where is your patch, must try it
02:12:16 <_dp_> Samu, return 2 * minu(dx, dy) + 3 * Delta(dx, dy) / 2;
02:12:37 <_dp_> you know where to put it)
02:14:01 <Samu> ugh, must copy past getmanhatandistance for that one
02:14:13 <Samu> or distancemanhatan, whatever... brb
02:15:01 <Samu> uint DistanceManhattan_dp_(TileIndex t0, TileIndex t1) :)
02:19:24 <Samu> ok running admiralai savegame for 2 years
02:20:05 <Samu> uh, profits are increasing
02:20:44 <Samu> let me confirm i didn't fail somewhere
02:22:55 <Samu> ah, i see a problem, brb editign
02:26:23 <ST2> DistanceManhattan gets equal to DistanceSquare
02:26:57 <ST2> useless to have 2 uint's there
02:27:36 <ST2> oh wait: what's the original?
02:29:23 <ST2> it's weird... I'll call you dP ;)
02:30:13 <_dp_> ST2, yeah, some bastard aleready took my nickname here :(
02:31:01 <_dp_> Samu, yeah, it increases profits for straight lines making them equal to diagonals
02:31:17 <Samu> ah, you do the reverse of what i do
02:31:23 <_dp_> Samu, so overall icome is expected to rise unless they are all perfectly diagonal
02:31:53 <Samu> i reduce profits for diagonals
02:32:30 <ST2> well, I'll leave you both on that discussion ^^
02:32:50 <ST2> good luck on both attempts :)
02:33:25 <_dp_> Samu, reducing is bad, it will screw up 5 years of quest history on your servers if it ever makes to trunk
02:34:01 <_dp_> I place mine on nothing changing xD
02:34:22 <ST2> that's a safe bet... for sure ^^
02:34:23 <Samu> quest history? what's that?
02:34:35 <ST2> but if anything changed... bets done :P
02:35:58 <Samu> oh... that kind of stuff
02:36:21 <ST2> basically it's something recording what servers gives - when achieving it... it's done :)
02:37:30 <ST2> dP (Citymania) have it changed on server side - so it has some measurements that a vanilla server can't give
02:38:55 <_dp_> ST2, well, most of them is just another fancy way to require a lot of money :)
02:39:49 <ST2> most of the issues we have is because admin port only gives info quarterly
02:40:17 <ST2> someone already suggested change that to monthly, some time ago
02:40:37 <ST2> was crushed by devs, sadly
02:41:26 <_dp_> ST2, well, it's your decision not to patch server :p
02:42:32 <Samu> a nerf to aircraft is always welcome, except that excessive infrastructure maintenance thing
02:43:31 <Samu> it works bad on small maps
02:43:52 <ST2> infrastructure maintenance is based now on number of tiles on stations (I think)
02:44:11 <ST2> when you build an airport, it's like a 7x7 rail station
02:44:29 <_dp_> Samu, we have big aircrafts removed, and small ones are ok
02:44:33 <Samu> oh, really? nice, i got to try enabling it
02:44:38 <ST2> with the point that you dnt need tracks between
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03:16:11 <Samu> enabled infrastructure maintenance and compared
03:19:21 <Samu> it's funny what the income graphs , delivered cargo show on the different versions
03:19:35 <Samu> speed penalty shows less cargo delivered
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03:20:23 <Samu> distance boost, that patch of _dp_, shows income increased, but profit decreased
03:28:29 <Samu> the only I consider fair is that of speed penalty, but it looks really awkward with the sudden vehicle speed decreases/increases when changing direction
03:29:35 <Samu> but it's fair because it leaves road vehicles unaffected
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10:27:21 <andythenorth> what are pax trams for?
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11:42:27 <andythenorth> why are pax trams?
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12:42:23 <Samu> if so, then the patch I posted there isn't good :(
12:42:51 <Samu> it won't be checking if the tile is clear
12:44:40 <Samu> have to think of a workaround
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12:50:56 <Samu> how to deal with half water, half land tiles?
12:52:37 <Samu> how to check if the tile is clear on the half land part of it, but not on the water part?
12:52:40 <Samu> ret = DoCommand(tile, 0, 0, flags, CMD_LANDSCAPE_CLEAR);
13:00:41 <Alberth> for me, I have no idea what all the cases are with such a tile, so I can't answer your questions
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13:01:46 <Alberth> and at least you change more than you promise, at first sight
13:03:24 <Samu> is there a No water flag? sec let me find
13:08:50 <Samu> there is DC_NO_WATER and CMD_NO_WATER
13:12:00 <Samu> without the patch, "can't build railway track here ... ship in the way."
13:12:30 <Samu> this error comes up because of ret = DoCommand(tile, 0, 0, flags, CMD_LANDSCAPE_CLEAR);
13:14:54 <Samu> ret = DoCommand(tile, 0, 0, flags & DC_NO_WATER, CMD_LANDSCAPE_CLEAR); = ship in the way error
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13:17:57 <Alberth> Samu: well, that makes sense, clearing a water tile means you remove the sea from it, can't have a ship on it then
13:18:40 <Wolf01> Meh, GitHub project with external dependencies, SVN can't get them
13:18:43 <Samu> i think it doesn't exist
13:18:56 <andythenorth> are trams precursors to buses? (history lesson)
13:19:03 <Wolf01> And Git for Windows can't checkout the project "not a valid Git repository"
13:19:07 <andythenorth> or are trams high-capacity pax transport for cities?
13:21:19 <Samu> so now i'm at ClearTile_Water, at water_cmd.cpp
13:21:43 <Samu> /* Make sure no vehicle is on the tile */ CommandCost ret = EnsureNoVehicleOnGround(tile);
13:21:57 <Samu> this brings up the error ship in the way t.t
13:27:31 <Wolf01> What's the right command to make a link? ln -T /long/path/i/don_t/want/to/write/ ?
13:28:30 <Wolf01> Also I don't want to delete the linked folder if I delete the link
13:29:46 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'd say trams came earlier than busses
13:30:40 <andythenorth> that’s currently how Road Hog models it
13:30:47 <andythenorth> but it causes problems with design
13:31:16 <andythenorth> the constraints for trams push them to have relatively high capacity
13:31:24 <andythenorth> which makes them ineffective for most towns
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13:33:26 <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you can't justify making the early trams a full tile, then don't...
13:35:08 <andythenorth> but they’d have capacity of 100 or more
13:35:11 <andythenorth> which might be fine
13:35:35 <andythenorth> currently buses start at 1900 or so, I’m considering adding older versions
13:35:48 <andythenorth> steam buses are valid historically, and also gameplay > realism
13:36:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd vote for horse carriages
13:39:28 <andythenorth> can’t use drive-in stops :P
13:39:37 <andythenorth> eh, I could just not articulate them
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13:57:19 <Samu> if (ret.Failed() && ret.GetErrorMessage() == STR_ERROR_SHIP_IN_THE_WAY) "change it to Succeeded()"
13:57:36 <Samu> change a fail into a success?
13:59:57 <Wolf01> By looking why is ret.Failed()
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14:08:25 <Samu> it failed because there is a ship in the way, but i'm building a rail on the land part
14:08:45 <Samu> doesn't make sense to fail
14:13:06 <Samu> actually, that's a screenshot with my fix, grrr
14:13:20 <Samu> but i suspect my fix has issues, so i'm trying an alternative
14:13:29 <Samu> looking for an alternative
14:14:26 <andythenorth> 18/8 mail and pax trams offers quite nice visuals
14:14:39 <andythenorth> all the freight trams are 16/8
14:16:51 <Samu> coincidence, the tool turns red when i press Ctrl-S to take a screenshot, imagine it as red
14:20:39 <Eddi|zuHause> does not sound like a problem
14:21:00 * andythenorth experiments with tram length and station blocking again
14:21:13 <andythenorth> I suspect it’s quite dependent on station layout
14:23:32 <andythenorth> 12/8 leaves some empty loading bays, and then the vehicles start tunneling
14:37:02 <andythenorth> Alberth: planning Maglev Renewal grf? o_O
14:37:55 <Alberth> nah, just trying some more improvements, scarily, it might involve pixels :p
14:38:20 <Alberth> ie further brighten the tracks, so you can see where they go
14:38:47 <Alberth> or darken the non-tracks, obviously :)
14:39:22 <Alberth> for some reason people are scared to paint them non-gray :p
14:41:34 <Alberth> going offline to read the logs :p
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15:46:17 <Samu_> cleartile_water needs a workaround
15:53:05 <Samu_> there is no real way to clear half of a tile, is it?
15:53:13 <Samu_> it's either all of it, or nothing
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15:58:56 <andythenorth> visually, 2 units or 3?
15:59:03 <andythenorth> obviously has gameplay implications
15:59:57 <Wolf01> We need to rework roadstops
16:00:33 <Wolf01> After NRT we could give them a look
16:01:32 <Wolf01> A look like 1 vehicle per lane doesn't matter the length?
16:02:05 <andythenorth> Wolf01: would mean moving the loading bays?
16:02:25 <andythenorth> Alberth: I think 2 is nicer, but the behaviour in roadstops…leaves gaps
16:03:30 <Wolf01> After NRT we should give some more life to roads
16:03:54 <andythenorth> we need that nml patch :P
16:04:42 <Wolf01> Rails have enough control with signals and layout, while roads have just the oneway
16:05:04 <Wolf01> Could I help with something non nml, non graphic?
16:07:02 <andythenorth> can you babysit and put away the shopping? o_O
16:07:19 <Wolf01> I'm a bit too far away
16:07:42 <andythenorth> can you persuade someone else to do the nml patch?
16:07:56 <andythenorth> it doesn’t require much design afaict
16:08:17 <andythenorth> just copy most of railtypes, but on feature ID 0x13
16:08:25 <andythenorth> drop the callback handlers
16:08:39 <andythenorth> maybe check if the tests need updated
16:09:16 <Wolf01> Shouldn't we define the features first?
16:09:39 <andythenorth> it’s what frosch said before, just get something compiling a roadtype grf
16:10:00 <andythenorth> frosch pretty much defined a spec last week or so in irc (logs?)
16:10:26 <Wolf01> But I meant "define exactly what NRT will support"
16:10:53 <andythenorth> we need some collaborative editing tool
16:11:07 <Samu_> do you know of any newgrf with items than can be placed on coast tiles with 1 corner raised?
16:11:35 <Eddi|zuHause> <Wolf01> Rails have enough control with signals and layout, while roads have just the oneway <-- i can only think of distributing traffic over multiple lanes
16:11:47 <Eddi|zuHause> what else would you need?
16:12:19 <Eddi|zuHause> there's this old "traffic light" patch, which i never quite understood what it's useful for
16:13:21 <Wolf01> Yes, I remember that, we don't have "traffic", but I would like animated tiles with people on pavements
16:13:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't see how that would work, the people would need to traverse multiple tiles
16:14:05 <FLHerne> Samu_: Lighthouse set
16:14:08 <Eddi|zuHause> so you need to model the people (town road AI style)
16:14:24 <Eddi|zuHause> instead of "just" animating a tile
16:14:40 <Eddi|zuHause> you wouldn't have the map space for animation state anyway
16:15:00 <Wolf01> Also, different kinds of road stations (eg. 2x2, 2x3, 1x4), hardcoded
16:15:14 <FLHerne> Samu_: Also all the OpenGFX+ Landscape objects, VAST objects, probably a lot of other things
16:15:18 <Eddi|zuHause> *cough* state machines *cough*
16:15:34 <andythenorth> I used to think that variety in road stop graphics might be wanted
16:16:12 <Wolf01> You'll need state machines even for roundabouts or highway ramps
16:16:32 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, "traffic objects" i called those once
16:16:44 <Eddi|zuHause> non-station things with state machines
16:16:54 <Eddi|zuHause> locks, drawbridges, onramps, ...
16:17:19 <andythenorth> roundabouts would actually be interesting
16:17:23 <Wolf01> Isn't really time to do state machines?
16:17:26 <andythenorth> locks also, are currently crap
16:17:47 <Eddi|zuHause> well, feel free to do state machines :p
16:18:06 <Wolf01> Aren't they just move {23, 53, 1, 554, 22, 245, 6...} on a grf?
16:18:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd just say chances of success are fairly low
16:18:38 <Wolf01> The problem is to develop a proper editing tool
16:19:09 <andythenorth> where are the roadstops?
16:19:13 <andythenorth> are they spaced 8/8 ?
16:23:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: it's not just "move along these coordinates", but also "wait here if sections A and B are occupied"
16:23:30 <andythenorth> and prevent deadlocks
16:24:39 <andythenorth> Wolf01: stick to NRT? :D
16:24:43 <andythenorth> or we could fix rivers :P
16:25:13 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the road stops are continuous. the vehicle will move forward until it is stopped, an there it loads
16:25:16 <Wolf01> I'll prefer NRT, for rivers I would like far more stuff than just a fix
16:25:44 <NGC3982> So, i'm trying to split up cargo between two stations
16:25:47 <andythenorth> how long is a stop?
16:26:10 <Eddi|zuHause> the whole tile, i think
16:26:25 <andythenorth> there are 2 per tile, per direction?
16:26:41 <Eddi|zuHause> no, if you have short vehicles, more than 2 can stop
16:27:01 <andythenorth> trying to understand this tunnelling I’m seeing with 12/8 trams
16:27:12 <NGC3982> This does not work, and i can't see what i'm doing wrong.
16:28:04 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: which "this" is not working?
16:28:38 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: The train leaves all the cargo at station #1.
16:28:57 <Eddi|zuHause> because the conditional order is only evaluated AFTER unloading
16:29:17 <Eddi|zuHause> so it can only apply to something that is left in the vehicle because it wasn't accepted
16:29:40 <NGC3982> So, splitting the cargo from the same train between two stations is therefor not possible?
16:29:48 <Eddi|zuHause> you cannot stop unloading halfway through
16:30:42 * NGC3982 settles with two trains.
16:30:50 <Wolf01> I usually do Load A, Go B, Load A, Go C, back from begin
16:37:36 <Samu_> alright, tiles of type objects won't bug out
16:38:14 <Samu_> but the real question is
16:38:37 <Samu_> are there objects that have track bits?
16:39:13 <Samu_> or even if they re-use the existant track bits?
16:40:04 <Samu_> I am wondering if ships could walk on tiles of type OBJECT
16:40:04 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: if you use a lot of magic water tiles, coastal industries rarely get built
16:40:16 <andythenorth> it’s not a valid way to detect small closed lakes
16:40:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: maybe, but i still think you're just not doing it right
16:40:57 <Alberth> sounds mostly like an engine primitive tbh
16:41:28 <Alberth> not sure if the user should have influence on it
16:41:35 <Eddi|zuHause> like, you don't need a 180° free space, but maybe two layouts which check 90° left or 90° right
16:41:55 <Alberth> but "does water has at least x tiles" sounds like something that could work
16:42:56 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how would you detect that the water body is closed?
16:43:09 <andythenorth> I am happy to try something
16:43:14 <andythenorth> the issue looks silly
16:43:30 <Eddi|zuHause> but you maybe avoid thee most silly dead end cases
16:45:15 <Samu_> is that to me? *confused
16:45:16 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: propose layouts with ascii art?
16:45:29 <andythenorth> I’ll test them (it’s laborious, but eh)
16:45:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: not really in the mood for that
16:45:53 <Alberth> Samu_: no, it wasn't for you
16:46:22 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you can produce ascii-art of the existing layout, i might some day get around to modifying them
16:47:20 <Samu_> static TrackStatus GetTileTrackStatus_Object(TileIndex tile, TransportType mode, uint sub_mode, DiagDirection side) { return 0; }
16:47:34 <Samu_> nice, that was the answer I was looking for
16:47:41 <Samu_> no tracks on object tiles
16:48:14 <Samu_> that means my patch is *ahem* bug free
16:49:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: '255' is the magic water tile?
17:01:12 <Samu_> 255 is the same as 0xFF
17:01:22 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yes
17:01:29 <Samu_> it ensures that the tile is water
17:01:39 <andythenorth> if it’s simply a matter of having 16 layouts or so....fine
17:01:50 <andythenorth> but I miss how that will find the lake case :)
17:01:52 <Samu_> i remember working with the oil rig layout
17:01:56 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Thanks :)
17:03:09 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it can't find "lakes" (as in bodies of water not connected to the map edge), but it could make sure the "lake" is somewhat big enough to plausibly explain the presence of this industry
17:11:00 * andythenorth wonders about writing a min. contiguous water tiles variable for newgrf tile check
17:14:59 <andythenorth> webster gone away?
17:15:35 <Samu_> 15:14:59 <andythenorth> webster gone away? Powered by YARRSTE version: svn-trunk
17:17:53 <Samu_> i got a feature request
17:19:10 <andythenorth> +1 (if the patch is sound)
17:19:23 * andythenorth buys land to stop towns doing that
17:20:00 <Samu_> this alone avoids major cpu usage on ships that would be otherwise stuck, and lost
17:20:39 <andythenorth> can anyone see the logs for 5th Sept?
17:21:18 <Samu_> 5th september does not want to open
17:22:00 <Samu_> 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 all can open
17:37:43 <Alberth> internal server error, call webster maintenance :)
17:40:29 <Wolf01> Funny when the maintenance guy get the error and had to call himself, and himself doesn't have a clue too :P
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18:02:38 <Samu_> building canals should be cheaper without the need of a newgrf :(
18:10:02 <Samu_> woah black bar spectator bug is still there, i reported it 1 year ago
18:21:45 <andythenorth> seems 9/8 vehicles fill stops without gaps
18:22:08 <andythenorth> that’s not a convenient length for drawing :P
18:24:33 <andythenorth> 10/8 seems to pack stations ok
18:29:03 <andythenorth> dunno why 12/8 doesn't
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18:46:30 <andythenorth> maybe I should just make one of those realism sets
18:46:37 <andythenorth> with a bazillion trams :P
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18:59:07 <supermop_> think i inhaled some cement last night
19:01:12 <Alberth> andy, that needs lots of pixels
19:06:24 <andythenorth> Alberth: I’ll use PIL
19:07:39 <supermop_> procedurally generated tram
19:07:58 <supermop_> no two cities trams are alike
19:07:59 <andythenorth> why do the metro trains in Iron Horse increase pax capacity so much per generation?
19:08:10 <andythenorth> they’re same vehicle length every time
19:08:24 <andythenorth> 240 -> 320 -> 400
19:08:35 <supermop_> andythenorth: have you seen a metro train from 100 years ago vs today?
19:09:02 <supermop_> they used to have nice caned seats facing each other, and a conductor in every car
19:09:56 <andythenorth> oh so it’s a legit increase?
19:10:06 <andythenorth> why don’t the mail units increase? :P
19:10:09 <andythenorth> who makes this stuff?
19:10:51 <supermop_> also most town sets are going to produce more pasengers in the 70s than the 30s, and increasing max speed alone will be worthless on a dense metro line
19:12:15 <andythenorth> trying to find a scheme for tram generations
19:12:25 <supermop_> i see IH metro as more of a life preserver than gameplay feature
19:12:38 <andythenorth> are trams solving same problem as IH metro?
19:12:40 <andythenorth> or something else?
19:12:47 <andythenorth> [freight trams are fine]
19:12:51 <andythenorth> just need to sort out pax + mail
19:13:12 <supermop_> trams are distributive/feeder i think
19:13:40 <supermop_> better for branching out at fringes of cities
19:14:24 <supermop_> mail trams and mail metros don't have a widespread rl prototype, so they can be whatever you want
19:15:00 <supermop_> mail tube was what, like 1ft gauge?
19:15:12 <supermop_> thats more of a pipe than a train
19:16:44 <andythenorth> so what’s the capacity of a pax tram?
19:16:51 * andythenorth needs to reduce capacity of buses
19:16:54 <supermop_> ih metro is for when your trunk line runs through a conurbation and you cant keep up with sheer numbers created by .se houses, so you run a parallel metro track
19:17:15 <Alberth> finally a legit use of PIPE newgrf :)
19:17:56 <supermop_> i mean ive been on a w class with 60 or so people
19:18:20 <andythenorth> use it in every game
19:18:22 <Alberth> never used it, must try it some time
19:18:32 <Alberth> for transporting what?
19:18:35 <supermop_> i use your shuttle and pumping station method andythenorth
19:18:46 <supermop_> rather than return pipe
19:19:00 <supermop_> looks ok with the right station tiles
19:19:58 <Alberth> hmm, feeders from nearby industry would be possible with PIPE
19:20:09 <supermop_> then dont need signals so can bury pipe in tunnels
19:20:29 <andythenorth> usually feeders yes
19:21:04 <supermop_> andythenorth: would benefit from a non-default depot
19:24:20 <andythenorth> I thought of forking the grf
19:24:27 <andythenorth> just one pump per generation
19:24:40 <supermop_> yeah i dont need the selection
19:25:29 <supermop_> except if you are trying to force the hand of cdist, and give one branch explicitly 1/3 the capacity of the other
19:26:35 <supermop_> use a 75k pump and a 25k pump and set them both to run once every x days
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19:28:51 <supermop_> had a wasteland game with 3 towns in a line fed by one water source, 75, transfer at 1st town to a 50, transfer at 2nd to a 25
19:29:04 <supermop_> each town got about 25kL
19:30:01 <supermop_> easier to set up in reverse to the onward capacity is already established when first water gets delivered
19:30:35 <andythenorth> it’s a myth that cdist measures capacity ;)
19:30:43 <andythenorth> unless I have made a myth that it’s a myth
19:31:50 <andythenorth> nope, I have it on record from fonso
19:32:05 <andythenorth> link capacity plays no role in demand calculation
19:32:13 <supermop_> well i somehow got water going all the way to the end
19:32:14 <andythenorth> only in assigning where there are multiple valid links
19:32:42 * andythenorth was going to update the cdist wiki, there are multiple cdist myths
19:32:49 <andythenorth> never got round to that :)
19:33:00 <Alberth> it'll get reverted anyway :p
19:33:05 <andythenorth> I have a long transcript from April 2016 about it :)
19:49:54 <andythenorth> way too much progression on buses
19:50:10 <andythenorth> 30 -> 50 -> 70 -> 90
19:52:24 <andythenorth> trams are 80 -> 120 -> 160 -> 200 -> 240
19:52:37 <andythenorth> also much too much
20:03:01 <Samu_> svn://svn.openttd.org/trunk
20:08:35 <andythenorth> Wolf01: work on NRT nml is blocked by lack of logs for 5th of September :) :P
20:11:43 <Wolf01> I have logs of that day
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20:16:05 <Wolf01> I can't paste as text ò_O
20:18:06 <Wolf01> I have a blank of 6 minutes at 22:22, the useful things might be there
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20:23:26 <Eddi|zuHause> something is weird :/ it messed up sound during boot, but i can't reboot right now
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20:49:30 <Wolf01> andythenorth, found what you needed?
20:51:49 <argoneus_> good evening train friends
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20:53:27 <andythenorth> Wolf01: think so
21:05:39 <Samu_> currently looking at my work last year, but i can't remember why I was focusing on permanent rivers
21:06:23 <andythenorth> because disappearing rivers are a bit weird?
21:06:32 <andythenorth> they should be immovables or something
21:08:09 <Samu_> they are not demolishable
21:08:26 <Samu_> maybe I had a really good reason at the time, now i can't remember
21:08:35 <Wolf01> I think rivers should have at least 2 fixed points, the spring and the mouth, in the middle you can change everything you want (width, shape...) provided the spring and the mouth are connected
21:09:07 <andythenorth> seems reasonable
21:09:17 <Wolf01> So nobody stops you from cutting a meander with a canal and blow up the old river
21:09:25 <Wolf01> But then you can't remove the canal
21:09:45 <Wolf01> And aqueducts don't count as river
21:11:41 <Samu_> if rivers are permanent, then why did i bother with the canal on river?
21:12:12 <Samu_> I should of just forbid canals being built on rivers
21:12:22 <Samu_> since they're permanent.. what's the point
21:12:40 <Wolf01> Having a straight path?
21:14:28 <Samu_> demolishing a canal built on a river, restores the river
21:14:45 <Samu_> demolishing the river... does nothing, not even a price, river stays
21:15:20 <Eddi|zuHause> "provided the spring and the mouth are connected" <-- i agree with that, but it needs the added condition that the connection only goes flat or down
21:16:12 <Eddi|zuHause> also, provide a setting like for blowing up town roads
21:16:37 <Eddi|zuHause> and change the town roads algorithm to a similar "needs an alternate connection" algorithm
21:18:25 <Wolf01> Today I also found that Breadth First algorithm is faster than A*
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21:34:00 <Samu_> i'm not sure if i totally like the idea of permanent rivers, unless the river generation algorithm is changed somewhat
21:34:24 <andythenorth> locks need changed
21:34:27 <andythenorth> locks are broken
21:34:56 <Samu_> ok tell me what needs to be changed about locks
21:35:43 <Eddi|zuHause> <Wolf01> Today I also found that Breadth First algorithm is faster than A* <-- depends on what you search and how it is embedded
21:37:44 <Eddi|zuHause> A* might need fewer steps, but does more things in each step
21:38:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm a bit fuzzy on what exactly A* does, though
21:38:44 <Samu_> multi-threaded A* finding - does it exist?
21:39:44 <Wolf01> Is not A* which needs to be multithread, your application should launch a search on every thread
21:45:01 <andythenorth> locks are too big
21:45:11 <andythenorth> they should be 2 tiles not 3, or even 1
21:45:26 <Wolf01> And if you have 3-tile ships?
21:45:33 <andythenorth> you’ve done it wrong
21:45:36 <andythenorth> depots are 2 tiles only
21:45:47 <andythenorth> 3 tile ships aren’t valid
21:46:12 <Wolf01> Also train depots are 1-tile, but nobody stops you from having a 64-tile long train
21:47:00 <andythenorth> 3 tile ships visually stick out of the ship depot though
21:47:12 <Samu_> there's 3 tile ships? really?
21:47:15 <Wolf01> No problem, I use open depots grf for ships
21:47:35 <Samu_> and what the heck is a 3 tile ship?
21:47:39 <Wolf01> Ship just automagically popups when started
21:48:55 <Wolf01> The sailing ship will glitch out badly if I don't ;)
21:49:25 <Wolf01> Also, bridges should be changed to define a heigth for what could pass below them
21:49:25 <Samu_> can i see a 3 tile ship? i thought they were 2 tiles
21:49:58 <Samu_> shouldn't that be a ship property
21:50:25 <Wolf01> Don't squid has some very large ships?
21:53:28 <Samu_> holy crap, that is retardedly large
21:54:22 <Samu_> it would require higher depots too
21:54:47 <Wolf01> Not only ship height, if one day andythenorth will draw a 5 stories tram, it shouldn't be allowed under a low bridge
21:59:23 <Samu_> but they're still only on 1 track piece, not 2
22:00:13 <andythenorth> they’re too big :)
22:00:49 * andythenorth must make improvements
22:01:50 <Eddi|zuHause> once you have proper state machines, you can make locks as small or big as you like
22:02:10 <Samu_> what's a state machines? sorry I dont know
22:02:41 <Samu_> the ship is BIG, but it's still only using 1 track, on that water tile
22:02:41 <Eddi|zuHause> and ship dimensions must be dealt with separately, they will inevitably glitch all over the place, because their bounding box is too big
22:03:03 <Eddi|zuHause> you could separate it into smaller bounding boxes
22:03:11 <andythenorth> Samu_: yes, ships have no specific concept of length
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