IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-09-09
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00:00:44 <Wolf01> I'm reading an article and I found this: "The number one thing I could not get into my skull as a junior developer was, you cannot solve a bug without understanding an execution state that manifests it."
00:00:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm assuming that second part of the video is sped up
00:02:04 <Eddi|zuHause> also, i'm pretty sure i asked this before: why is it called "photo" when it's a video?
00:02:40 <Wolf01> I think they weren't smarte enough to use 2 folders or just "media"
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00:17:20 <Samu> hmm not sure what is refactor
00:17:37 <Samu> or execution state for that matter
00:19:02 <Wolf01> Then you should learn both
00:22:27 <_dp_> debugging via refactoring probably won't work with openttd though
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00:22:54 <Wolf01> No, maybe in some little cases it does
00:29:17 <_dp_> speaking of the execution state... if articulated part is on same tile as previous one ttd thinks that vehicle is reversing
00:33:53 <_dp_> ... and nvm, I thought it over ^^
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00:48:31 <Samu> i never know if i use static inline, or static, or inline or nothing at all
00:48:55 <Samu> i never see any difference
00:49:52 <Samu> btw i changed it from a bool to a CommandCost
00:51:48 <Samu> what do I use? static inline CommandCost? static CommandCost? CommandCost? inline CommandCost?
00:52:59 <_dp_> Samu, if static compiles use it, inline don't use
00:53:18 <_dp_> Samu, though it's better to understand what they do
00:56:16 <Samu> those guides don't teach me much
00:59:08 <Samu> hmm the function is in the same file that will use it
00:59:17 <Samu> so this is what inline means?
01:01:39 <_dp_> Samu, inline is a performance hint for compiler
01:02:24 <_dp_> Samu, now sure if modern compilers pay any attention to it whatsoever
01:03:07 <_dp_> Samu, so just mark them static whenever possible and let compiler decide on optimizations
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01:21:25 <Samu> _dp_: my savegame might be useful, perhaps
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01:22:10 <Samu> there are 2 big roads in zig-zag direction
01:22:32 <Samu> took me a while to edit the damn map, hope it's useful
01:26:20 <_dp_> Samu, not much, I've already found what's causing it
01:26:45 <_dp_> Samu, if mb to verify once it's fixed
01:36:11 <Samu> with drive on right, going S to N seems to be the only correct travel time
01:36:33 <Samu> when in comparison to NW <-> SE and NE <-> SW
02:11:46 <Samu> darn, this whole deal of docking tile stuff is a bit more complex than I thought
02:14:12 <Samu> but i think my patch is ready to deal with it
02:15:02 <Samu> yup, it's fine after all lol
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11:38:36 <Samu> the profit impact is real!
11:39:27 <Samu> I picked a savegame of NoCAB, loaded it in 2051
11:40:15 <Samu> he uses only aircraft, mostly traveling on diagonal directions (horizontal, vertical lines on the image)
11:40:42 <Samu> from 2051 to 2052, the difference was that I applied the speed penalty patch
11:40:58 <Samu> the difference is very noticeable
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11:59:38 <Samu> @calc 239351858/(179279987*(36294815/35171650))
12:01:48 <Samu> @calc (239351858/36294815)/(179279987/35171650)
12:03:00 <Samu> @calc (239351858-36294815)/(179279987-35171650)
12:15:23 <Samu> strange, train testing in a real in-game environment doesn't seem to have much of a penalty, if any
12:18:30 <Samu> there was a penalty, but very subtle
12:19:58 <Samu> @calc (180786210-5511366)/(176808026-5511366)
12:29:24 <Samu> chimaera trains are too fast perhaps?
12:33:10 <Samu> calc (241119448-35068799)/(179279987-35171650)
12:33:15 <Samu> @calc (241119448-35068799)/(179279987-35171650)
12:45:21 <Samu> @calc (109887737-9267827)/(97145395-9274227)
12:48:18 <Samu> road vehicle penalty should be non-existant, but let me test
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12:58:41 <Samu> @calc (44634735-5566687)/(44587023-5566467)
12:59:31 <Samu> 0.1% penalty, almost negligible, but it's still there :(
13:06:02 <Samu> maybe town growth patch is affecting it?
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13:23:38 <Samu> @calc (44634735-5566687)/(44634735-5566687)
13:23:55 <Samu> heh, town growth patch was skewing results
13:37:38 <Samu> @calc (241119448-35068799)/(178984575-35172755)
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13:46:31 <Samu> @calc (180786210-5511366)/(176808024-5511366)
13:50:26 <Samu> i don't get the train penalty
13:50:36 <Samu> how's the profit formula for trains?
13:56:57 <Samu> @calc (79316844-6440028)/(77346567-6440028)
14:06:42 <Samu> @calc (105572281-6743636)/(101032310-6743636)
14:07:05 <Samu> this is really strange, I must be missing something
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14:48:36 <DorpsGek> Samu: 0.999212022289
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14:52:33 <Samu> @calc (6351757-377283)/(6056535-377283)
14:53:20 <Samu> quite honestly, I was expecting a higher profit penalty for trains with the speed penalty patch
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15:33:25 <Samu> something's not quite right on my testings
15:35:40 <Samu> gonna wait 5 years to refresh the timetables and cargo values
15:35:55 <Samu> will look again at the profit on the 6th year
15:36:10 <Wolf01> <Samu> something's not quite right on my testings <- the execution state
15:37:10 <Wolf01> You focus too much on a single value without even thinking if that breaks other 100 things
15:37:36 <Samu> i am trying to figure out what it is
15:38:14 <Samu> i think 5 years is enough for every vehicle to restart their routes from order 1
15:38:35 <Samu> loading unpatched savegames might be a bad idea
15:40:37 <Samu> if by then train profit is still barely changed, then I don't really know what went wrong
15:42:15 <Samu> feels like trains have a different profit formula than the other vehicle types
15:44:53 <supermop> i don;t think i every notice individual vehicle profit
15:45:30 <supermop> once i can afford more than one line, the cash flow is such it rarely makes sense to examine
15:49:06 <Samu> okay, i can't really test this like I'm doing
15:49:24 <Samu> industries close on one of the samples, but not on the other
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16:35:59 * Wolf01 is bored, thinks about bed
16:37:02 <supermop> isn't it like 4 pm in italy?
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17:00:00 <Samu> does the cargo lose value if they wait too much at stations without being loaded?
17:00:42 <Flygon__> Your ratings tank tho
17:00:42 <FLHerne> If you leave it for a long while, it evaporates
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17:01:17 <Samu> well, then... i have no idea what's wrong
17:02:51 <Samu> when delivering cargo, payment isn't always the same
17:02:53 <FLHerne> "Every 2.5 days station ratings are computed; ratings can't change by more than 2 points per cycle, except after crashes."
17:03:28 <FLHerne> Crashes lose 63 %points
17:04:05 <FLHerne> So, if you had a station with a rating <35%, you could improve the rating by crashing a vehicle next to it
17:04:33 <FLHerne> Gah, not explaining right
17:05:02 <FLHerne> If you increase the service suddenly, you can cause the rating to improve faster than it normally would in the short term
17:05:28 <FLHerne> No, that was a totally useless idea
17:07:30 <Samu> ships profit behave as i expected, road vehicles too, aircraft too, but trains... their profits are barelly changed with the speed penalty
17:08:26 <Alberth> from 100 to 120 is not a big change in time
17:08:38 <Alberth> from 10 to 30 is much bigger
17:09:55 <Alberth> ie at slow speeds, the relative impact of a faster vehicle counts much more than at high speeds
17:10:01 <Samu> i saw trains with penalties ranging from 2% to 5%, of course the testing conditions are quite varied, but
17:10:43 <Samu> aircraft got a penalty from 37% to 41%
17:10:50 <Alberth> 10km/h -> 20km/h is a speedup of 100%
17:11:03 <Alberth> 100km/h -> 110km/h is just 10%
17:11:31 <Samu> ship penalty got a penalty of about 14%
17:11:46 <Alberth> so if your relative fast train is faster or not doesn't make a large difference
17:11:47 <Samu> road vehicles - no change, as I intended
17:13:57 <Samu> i know it depends a lot on how many diagonals are there on the routes, but still.... 2%-5% is quite low
17:14:26 <Samu> aircrafts are also faster
17:14:41 <Samu> but got a much bigger impact on their profit
17:15:53 <Samu> brb let me check my code
17:16:17 <Alberth> cargo can also modify the impact on being late
17:16:31 <Samu> er, not really, just loaded an old save and let it run for a few years
17:16:46 <Samu> then compared with 1.6.1
17:17:37 <Samu> but i understand that it needs at least a full complete schedulle for every vehicle to refresh cargos values to the new speeds
17:18:28 <Alberth> that would make sense, cargo departure and arrival times are stored and used in these calculations
17:19:15 <Samu> return (this->type == VEH_TRAIN) ? (this->direction & 1) ? speed * 3 / 4 : speed / 2 : speed * 3 / 4;
17:19:25 <Samu> this is for trains and road vehicles
17:19:32 <Samu> return (this->direction & 1) ? speed : speed / 2;
17:19:38 <Samu> this is for ships and aircraft
17:21:12 <Samu> seems that the problem is there at "speed / 2" - trains on diagonals
17:22:09 <Samu> this alone makes the trains have equivalent travel times, but then, the profit formula... seems to be negating my effort
17:24:56 <Alberth> there is also a distance involved in payment, afaik
17:25:30 <Alberth> the route of the train has nothing to do with that
17:25:51 <Alberth> the route only affects how fast the train arrives at the destination
17:34:37 <supermop> V453000: can't decide what kind of reflected enviroment to use rendering some chrome products
17:34:51 <supermop> white room seems too boring
17:36:40 <supermop> also maybe not worth using vray for this. plain curvey chrome seems to render just fine with built in rendered
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17:54:13 <Samu> get transported goods income seems to have two different returns
17:54:25 <Samu> GetTransportedGoodsIncome seems to have two different returns
18:08:47 <Samu> time to build a new map t.t
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18:40:40 <Samu> @calc (35600-1063)/(23160-1063)
18:41:09 <Samu> hmm dont know what to think
18:43:45 <_dp_> Samu, try google, it can calculate stuff without spamming the channel ;)
18:46:24 <Samu> @calc (((35600-1063)/6)*4)/(23160-1063)
19:05:19 <Samu> aircraft completed 7 voyages with speed penalty, vs 10 voyages, in 1 year
19:06:37 <Samu> income per voyage is 63394/7 and 91507/10, running costs is -4206 for both
19:09:42 <Samu> aproximately an impact of ~1,47
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20:18:31 <V453000> supermop: usually some HDRI map applied to the environment/dome
20:18:50 <V453000> it takes me 5 hours to reply and he leaves a second before I do
20:19:39 <supermop_> hdri of what tho i cant decide - all of the cool ones are too cool
20:19:49 <supermop_> rendering a towel hook for a bathroom
20:20:10 <V453000> ah, here he is :> hello
20:20:14 <supermop_> hdri of some beautiful european street maybe too excessive
20:20:36 <V453000> well depends, you can always blur the environment to make it less specific
20:20:44 <supermop_> was using one of the grand hall at metropolitan museum of art
20:21:32 <supermop_> what i need is a 360 degree hdri of the inside of a boring bathrooom
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20:28:53 <V453000> or just slap some photo you like on a half-dome
20:40:30 <supermop_> V453000: i read that as 'slap some photo like of you'
20:40:51 <supermop_> i think thats what i should do - my face as environment dome
20:40:52 <V453000> that's optional supermop_ :P
20:41:24 <supermop_> embarassing - i forgot how to set a folder to show file extensions
20:44:18 <Samu> sum of all the sublocations of each track that a vehicle steps into, to get the total distance travelled
20:45:14 <V453000> supermop_: I just use total commander for that
20:45:19 <V453000> but I guess you could google it :P
20:46:10 <Samu> or just the sum of diagonal directions~
20:46:19 <supermop_> something i've done 1000 timess tho
20:47:35 <Samu> adjusting profit formula may an alternative
20:47:57 <Samu> an alternative to the speed penalty
20:48:29 <Samu> Altered Manhattan perhaps
20:49:53 <Samu> but road vehicles will suffer
20:52:19 <Samu> will openttd ever have diagonal roads?
20:52:30 <Samu> i heard u guys talking about notroadtypes
20:53:28 <Samu> make roads more like another rail type, rail of type road, then put all road vehicles there? :p
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21:00:21 <Wolf01> I suspect we bot were waiting for this
21:05:14 <Wolf01> Any improvement with NRT?
21:06:09 <andythenorth> I will poke at nml…but life
21:06:39 <Samu> so i was thinking of this formula I'm inventing
21:07:00 <Samu> it's based on DistanceManhatan
21:07:10 <Samu> const uint dx = Delta(TileX(t0), TileX(t1)); const uint dy = Delta(TileY(t0), TileY(t1)); return dx + dy;
21:07:17 <Samu> instead of return dx + dy
21:07:49 <Samu> it would be return dx + dy + Delta(dx, dy);
21:09:55 <Samu> or maybe - Delta(dx, dy)
21:10:03 <Samu> have to think this better
21:10:17 <andythenorth> could we reduce the inertia to forks and patches?
21:12:06 * andythenorth can’t find a hghub
21:13:49 <Samu> is this a known formula, or did i make it up?
21:14:01 <Samu> trying to google and can't get anything similar
21:14:53 <Wolf01> Are you just adding numbers or it has some sense?
21:15:55 <andythenorth> looks like first order differentiation
21:16:02 <andythenorth> as far as I can remember from 20 years ago
21:16:05 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause will know
21:16:55 <Wolf01> isn't it just 2*dx+dy?
21:17:21 <Wolf01> Oh, no, it has different vars
21:17:21 <Samu> return dx + dy - Delta(dx, dy);
21:17:48 <Samu> I am "shortening" the distance because vehicles go faster on diagonals
21:18:15 <Samu> when calculating payment, the distance it gets is smaller
21:18:30 <Samu> but i am also wondering if this makes any sense
21:18:44 <Wolf01> So, you are changing the distance when the problem is the speed?
21:20:19 <_dp_> Wolf01, who said speed is the problem? ;)
21:21:25 <_dp_> It all depends on what metrics you consider to be right :p
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21:30:10 <Samu> really bad formula, heh i'm noob
21:30:30 <_dp_> Samu, did even read that payment topic? There are bunch of formulas already
21:31:45 <Samu> i saw them, but at the time i was focused on speed penalty, didn't give much credit
21:33:11 <oftcrash> Anyone familiar with graphviz?
21:34:31 <oftcrash> I'm getting the following error when compiling FIRS locally when its trying to generate the SVG:
21:34:34 <oftcrash> *** [html_docs] Segmentation fault: 11
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21:42:36 <Samu> I read that floating values are bad for multiplayer
21:44:17 <oftcrash> I used brew to install graphvis
21:44:38 <oftcrash> it looks like its creating the docs/cargoflow.dotall file
21:44:49 <andythenorth> I’m on 10.10.5 with graphviz from macports
21:45:16 <oftcrash> I might have ports installed too. I'll try uninstalling and reinstalling
21:47:16 <oftcrash> or not. I seem to have uninstalled it
21:47:31 <oftcrash> the homebrew copy seemed up to date though
21:47:48 <oftcrash> maybe its something in 10.9
21:47:55 <andythenorth> my experience, don’t have macports and brew both trying to manage ports :)
21:48:16 <oftcrash> yeah, I think that's why I got rid of macports - it was a few years ago
21:49:14 <andythenorth> oftcrash: does it work with vanilla FIRS?
21:49:23 <andythenorth> just wondering if it’s the file, or graphviz
21:49:50 <oftcrash> good question, Let me check
21:53:24 <oftcrash> Ah so they do show different versions
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21:54:10 <oftcrash> Why can't they just list the numeric version instead of the silly animals
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21:57:42 <oftcrash> doesn't work with vanilla firs either
22:00:24 <andythenorth> oftcrash: does the python compile work? o_O
22:00:33 * andythenorth is curious, because it’s a python 3 build
22:02:16 <oftcrash> yeah, the NML compiles
22:02:35 <oftcrash> I have python 3 as well, but I haven't tried the make in that
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22:02:59 <oftcrash> though I've messed with it so much, it may be defaulting to 3 now
22:03:03 <oftcrash> I set it up a while ago
22:03:21 <andythenorth> what happens if you type ‘python’?
22:03:31 <oftcrash> in fact... yeah, it is 3. I've been using the latest NML
22:03:35 <andythenorth> or ‘which python'
22:03:52 <oftcrash> python takes me to 2.7.5
22:04:14 <oftcrash> python3 is my command line for 3 (obviously)
22:04:21 <oftcrash> I got it to run in the web interface
22:04:40 <oftcrash> but I had to remove all the pound signs in front the <TR> tags
22:05:34 <oftcrash> Its enough for now at least :) - I have to look at my whole setup again. I haven't reimaged this machine in 4 or 5 years. Might be time
22:06:00 <andythenorth> not sure that the python linking is relevant for FIRS, seems we don’t import the python graphviz module
22:06:42 <andythenorth> what does ‘gvpr -V’ report?
22:08:15 <oftcrash> I'm going to redownload the one from the site
22:08:30 <andythenorth> I have 2.38.0 although that may not be relevant
22:09:24 <oftcrash> still going to update
22:12:19 <oftcrash> ugh, diaper (nappy?) duty. Back in a few
22:30:24 <oftcrash> I think I finally got it
22:30:42 <oftcrash> 2.28 didn't want to go away, but I finally got 2.36 installed and that seems to work
22:31:45 <oftcrash> I got my great cats confused - installed for leopard instead of mountain lion.
22:35:17 <oftcrash> yup, confirmed - it works! Thanks for walking me through it - I should have caught that
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continue to next day ⏵
![http://i.imgur.com/cpv5u2G.png[/img]](http://i.imgur.com/cpv5u2G.png%5B/img%5D){kind=link}
