IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-09-07
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00:17:37 <Samu> well well, NoCAB also suffers from the easy dock placement patch :(
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00:26:25 <Samu> dictatorai isn't all that great with ships after all, i thought it was better
00:27:02 <Samu> he just build a ship depot on a lake, built ships in there, but the dock they're heading is not in that lake
00:27:23 <Samu> otviai does suffer from this as well
00:28:05 <Samu> a lake, a real natural lake, not river tiles
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00:35:42 <Samu> i must do something about ship depot exits
00:36:16 <Samu> but i want to do it without adverse effects for the gameplay, it's already not intuitive for water construction
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01:07:58 <Samu> nop, i'm not gonna do anything about ship depot exits
01:08:46 <Samu> but would ruin it for human players
01:08:55 <Samu> it already is hard to construct water stuff
01:10:19 <sim-al2> It's always fun to see AI ships built on the wrong body of water, or in a tiny lake far from the sea
01:10:30 <sim-al2> Or just on a river with no locks
01:10:53 <goodger> my secretary of state for defence is always doing that in supreme ruler
01:11:17 <goodger> I don't see it much in openttd though FIRS seems happy to build bulk terminals on lakesides
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01:20:12 <Samu> can AIs actually build locks?
01:20:43 <Samu> do they have the means, API or whatever, to build a lock? never seen any build them
01:20:48 <Samu> same as canal tiles and aqueducts
01:29:18 <Samu> i'm gonna split this patch in two
01:29:18 <Eddi|zuHause> that's because andy failed to grasp the concept of magic water tiles to make sure there's a larger body of water
01:30:56 <Samu> i once had an idea to remove locks from the game
01:31:17 <Samu> and allow ships going up rivers
01:32:26 <Samu> makes water construction very tedious
01:33:35 <Samu> another idea would be, instead of a lock being 3 tiles wide, make it only 1 tile
01:34:33 <Samu> keep the middle tile, remove the other 2 tiles
01:34:58 <Wolf01> We need proper locks, not even worse than they are
01:40:10 <Samu> lol, nocab got some lost ships because otviai blocked passage with a ship depot
01:44:30 <Samu> alright, i've seen enough
01:44:49 <Samu> time to stop this test and split that patch
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10:44:49 <V453000> I have just tried to purchase some music album ... in US, the mp3 version is cheaper, CD version gets a mp3 version with it for free but it's more expensive and requires shipping. BUT for some reason when I want to pay on amazon for the mp3 version, it complains that my address must be local or something. So I tried purchasing on german amazon, and the mp3 is even more expensive than CD version there! XD WTF ... and they complain about local
10:45:10 <V453000> and then someone wonders why people listen to music on youtube or download it if they want quality
10:45:51 <Wolf01> US is a different market with different prices, they don't want you to purchase from them
10:46:43 <Wolf01> That's why we should buy the shit out of UK before brexit
10:46:47 <V453000> well the prices are pretty identical, just shipping is obviously more
10:47:07 <V453000> but why is mp3 cheaper in US (as it makes sense), but CD is cheaper in germany?
10:47:32 <V453000> I bet there is some anti-theft-super-piracy-money going to some fucking organization for the digital copy
10:47:57 <Wolf01> Yup, US doesn't gives money to GEMA if you purchase there
10:48:00 <V453000> just like when you buy an empty disk you pay like a bitch
10:48:41 <Wolf01> Also there's different taxation on digital products
10:48:56 <Wolf01> For example an ebook is not a book even if it's a book
10:49:28 <Wolf01> And, in Italy you pay 22% tax on ebook but only 4% or such on books
10:49:59 <Wolf01> I think the same happen with music
10:50:24 <Wolf01> MP3 is not CD aven if the CD could contain MP3
10:50:30 <V453000> fuck it lol I will just pirate it if I figure it is that much worth it for me
10:51:09 <V453000> I just expected similar nice shit like at bandcamp where you just pay, get the high quality MP3s immediately, enjoy.
10:51:16 <V453000> if you want you can even pay more if you really enjoy the band
10:51:33 <V453000> and since it's all so problem-free, you don't have a problem with paying a few more dollars more voluntarily
10:51:56 <V453000> but yeah what would I expect in today's world
10:52:47 <Wolf01> Binding a changing property in UWP is shit
11:58:18 <Wolf01> I found this: float dist = sqrt((x2-x1) + (2*(y2-y1))^2); not sure if fits
12:06:00 <Samu> @calc sqrt((7-0) + (2*(0-0))^2)
12:06:00 <DorpsGek> Samu: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
12:09:06 <Samu> @calc ((7-0) + (2*(0-0))^2)^(1/2)
12:09:06 <DorpsGek> Samu: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
12:09:22 <Samu> this calc does not like me
12:09:38 <Samu> @calc ((7-0)+(2*(0-0))^2)^(1/2)
12:09:38 <DorpsGek> Samu: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
12:10:35 <DorpsGek> Samu: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
12:10:57 <Wolf01> Also, don't you have a calculator?
12:12:06 <Samu> 2,6457513110645905905016157536393
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12:14:40 <Samu> 2,64 seems a weird distance going from (0,0) to (7,0)
12:15:49 <Wolf01> It's the distance projected on screen, not the "real"
12:22:46 <Samu> lel, i'm staring at it and i can't even recognize
12:28:29 <Wolf01> Do you see triangles in ottd?
12:28:52 <Samu> i see rails in form of triangles
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12:36:03 <Samu> oh gosh i cant identify the darn problem
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13:30:52 <Samu> there are 6 exits for a rail traick
13:31:15 <Samu> but a tile only has 4 sides
13:31:44 <Samu> and... i have no idea what to think anymore
13:33:13 <Samu> seems like rail tracks need an extra coordinate?
13:35:05 <Samu> track_axis_x, track_axis_y, track_left, track_right, track_upper, track_lower
13:38:19 <Samu> there are 4 exits for a road bit
13:38:31 <Samu> there are 4 sides on a tile
13:38:50 <Flygon> Then you gotta render them in a '3D' environment <_>
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13:46:37 <Wolf01> Also I like all the potentialities of SimCity4, a tutorial I looked at explained how to make realistic road/rail networks with embankments on bridges etc
13:46:57 <V453000> does any game use the isohedral tileS?
13:46:59 <Samu> it shows something weird about distances and manhattan
13:47:06 <V453000> isometric is already fuckton of problems tbh :P
13:47:55 <Wolf01> Even worse the Factorio projection
13:48:32 <Wolf01> That's fucked up badly, but you managed to make it look good
13:49:50 <Samu> oh ya, the bottom left one has a 6x * 6y it should say 5x 5y, posting new screenshot
13:51:58 <Samu> yesterday i did something suggested by _dp_
13:52:03 <V453000> in many ways OpenTTD is even worse Wolf01
13:52:09 <Samu> i got some interesting results
13:52:40 <V453000> it's just not mentioned much because almost nobody makes 3D models and instead pixel-draws the "what they are used to" optical illusions
13:52:56 <Wolf01> V, you mean the glitching problems and the illusion for tunnels entrances?
13:53:27 <V453000> not just that, but yeah height illusion is generally a big issue, but also tiling of ANYTHING in diagonal/straight for example tracks
13:53:54 <V453000> anything that is not 100% flat requires an illusion, otherwise unsolvable / gligchy-ish
13:54:43 <V453000> if you have topdown-ish projection, the tile borders are straight, which helps a fuckload in that thing
13:56:28 <Wolf01> In fact on isometric you shouldn't do shape transformation, but just draw it in the way it looks right, at least this is what a tutorial said
13:57:04 <Wolf01> And lots of compromises
13:57:39 <Wolf01> One made by a rpgmaker/gamemaker at least 14 years ago
13:59:40 <Wolf01> No, it was put offline ages ago, I only have some bits saved
14:02:51 <V453000> ye, well links seem to be fokd op
14:02:59 <Wolf01> The last ones I think, the site does not exist anymore
14:04:19 <Samu> perphaps i should try an even slower max speed for the vehicles
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14:07:51 <Wolf01> Lol, I found some sprites of my old mediaval RTS
14:08:11 <Wolf01> Clearly he made them prettier
14:08:13 <Samu> i have no way to reliably test aircraft travel times :(
14:08:26 <Samu> oh, you're not about my results
14:11:38 <Flygon> All I ever did was test art for the Sega Master System
14:11:54 <Samu> will change to 3 km/h max speed
14:12:36 <Flygon> (an adaption of a drawing a friend drew :U )
14:33:50 <Samu> just posted results at 3 km/h
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15:04:24 <Samu> this is strange, these results don't make sense
15:08:04 <Samu> a ship and a train moving at 24 km/h have the same travel time going from NE to SW
15:08:39 <Samu> a ship and a train moving at 3 km/h have different travel times going from NE to SW which is exactly the same route
15:09:33 <Samu> train is slower than ship at 3 km/h in the same route
15:09:45 <Samu> what is wrong with this? am i missing something
15:10:22 <Wolf01> <V453000> wat medieval RTS? <- not able to show you, I need to compile it and the old version of the tool doesn't work on >=Vista, I should import it on the latest GMStudio but that mean I have to change lots of things :(
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15:15:24 <Wolf01> Then I abandoned drawing because you can see the reasons
15:17:33 <Samu> if a train moving at 3 km/h traveling 50 tiles takes 693 days, then how many days would it take at .. 4 km/h or 24 km/h
15:18:58 <Samu> not real life measurement
15:23:45 <Samu> at 4 km/h it takes 462 days (according to the game
15:24:48 <Wolf01> Ever tried wolfram alpha?
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15:24:54 <Samu> at 6 km/h it takes 347 days
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15:26:03 <Samu> at 12 km/h it takes 154 days
15:26:37 <Samu> at 24 km/h it takes 78 days
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15:29:53 <Samu> it doesn't match conventional logic
15:40:59 <Samu> well, it's all making no sense in this game
15:41:06 <Samu> can't really trust anything
15:43:02 <Samu> then again... days aren't an exact measure
15:43:11 <Samu> think i'm gonna use that tick patch
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15:49:45 <Samu> yeah i like this tick patch already
16:02:57 <supermop> phone finally succumbed to being in the ocean 2 months ago
16:13:34 <Samu> @calc (1 * 16 * 256) / (74 * 2) * 24
16:14:11 <Samu> @calc (1 * 16 * 256) / (74 * 2) * 24 * 1.00584
16:17:59 <Samu> how many sublocations per track side?
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16:24:22 <Samu> @calc (1 * 8 * 256) / (74 * 2) * 24 * 1.00584
16:27:21 <Samu> @calc (1 * 12 * 256) / (74 * 2) * 24 * 1.00584
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17:09:21 <Samu> i'm counting sublocations
17:13:48 <Alberth> more peoples even, hihi :)
17:14:36 <Samu> heh, so all sublocations for roads are different
17:15:22 <Samu> 18/11, 18/10, 17/10, 17/11
17:15:47 <Samu> shouldn't they all be equal?
17:15:56 <Samu> maybe i'm missing something important
17:38:41 <Samu> mister Alberth i think i figured out the zig-zag N<->S discrepance
17:38:53 <Samu> it's the counting of sublocations
17:41:14 <Samu> E<->W had (almost) the same time travel in both directions, i wonder if it's sublocation related
17:43:08 <Samu> where in the code are these road sublocations at
17:44:26 <Alberth> it doesn't make sense to me
17:44:42 <Alberth> I never ever looked at road movement, ever
17:46:00 <Samu> from E to W, I count 28 sublocations, from W to E, I count 28 sublocations
17:46:21 <Samu> from N to S, I count 27 sublocations, from S to N, I count 29 sublocations
17:48:04 <Samu> on that savegame i sent you N to S was faster than S to N, and today I found these sublocations thingies, and apparently they may be what's causing the different travel times
17:49:25 <Samu> later on I went to find out that E to W and W to E did not have the discrepancy
17:49:41 <Samu> it's not exemplified on the save I sent you, though
17:50:01 <Samu> sublocation counting seems to corroborate my findings
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18:08:14 <V453000> dat hi res transport belt
18:12:09 <V453000> well lego can get even more nerdy than I thought XD
18:13:55 <V453000> I modeled this in 3D a few times
18:14:06 <V453000> making it actually animated properly is especially retarded
18:14:21 <Wolf01> Now I understand how a reverser works and why there are 2 pistons in a steam engine
18:14:22 <V453000> 3D programs can't do it, you have to hack it :D
18:14:41 <V453000> yeah I understand the mechanism a lot better now too :D
18:17:08 <Samu> cargo flow should have the company colors
18:17:33 <Samu> i see many lines but find it hard to know which company they belong to
18:18:24 <Samu> also, water color on the minimap... hmm wish i could change the color
18:18:46 <Samu> some smart asses pick dark blue and i can never know where they are
18:29:07 <Alberth> you can't enable/disable companies from being displayed?
18:29:32 <Alberth> at least you can select on cargotypes
18:36:21 <Samu> you can see them when you're a spectator
18:37:34 <Samu> road vehicles and trains use the same GetAdvanceSpeed
18:37:44 <Samu> ships and aircraft use the same GetOldAdvanceSpeed
18:39:49 <Samu> my observations tell me that trains and ships should have the same function, whichever it is
18:40:17 <Samu> maybe aircraft too, road vehicles are the "exception"
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18:59:07 <Samu> there is a bug in the description
18:59:33 <Samu> * The vehicle speed is scaled by 3/4 when moving in X or Y direction due to the longer distance.
18:59:48 <Samu> or my interpretation is wrong?
19:01:02 <Samu> if the direction is 1, what will this return? return (this->1 & 1) ? 100 : 100 * 3 / 4;
19:01:44 <Samu> DIR_NE = 1, ///< Northeast
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19:03:13 <Samu> return (1 & 1) ? 100 : 100 * 3 / 4;
19:03:55 <Samu> return (this->direction & 1) ? speed : speed * 3 / 4;
19:05:05 <Samu> it returns 100 or 75? :(
19:05:15 <Samu> i thnk it's 100, but the direction is NE
19:05:29 <Samu> description is misleading or am i interpreting it wrong?
19:11:37 <Samu> @calc 100 * 3 / 4 / (3 / 2)
19:12:12 <Samu> testing return (this->direction & 1) ? speed : speed /2
19:12:55 <glx> 1 and 3 return speed, 0 and 2 return speed * 3/4
19:17:31 <Samu> and probably aircraft, since the function is shared with them
19:18:25 <Samu> there is a 1 day difference
19:18:32 <Samu> must test at lower speeds ,brb
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19:21:13 <Samu> bah, 404 days vs 353 days, it was too good to be true
19:22:44 <Samu> i must push those 353 days to 404
19:23:30 <Samu> in short, it must be slower that speed /2
19:27:55 <Samu> speed /3 i get 471, too slow now
19:28:54 <Samu> faster than speed / 2 and slower than speed / 3
19:33:12 <Alberth> multiply everything by 2, then take the value in-between
19:34:40 <Alberth> speed / 2 == 2 speed / 4; speed / 3 == 2 speed / 6; in between 2 speed / 5
19:35:53 <Samu> slower than speed /2, faster than speed / 3
19:36:27 <Alberth> that is of course speed / 2.5
19:42:08 <Samu> return (this->direction & 1) ? speed : speed * 2 / 5; testing
19:47:07 <Samu> why am i getting 471 days again
19:48:12 <Samu> looks like I can't use really low speed values to begin with
19:48:55 <Samu> time to create a bigger map
19:50:04 <Samu> fastest ship is 64 km/h hmmm i wonder if 64 is a big enough value
19:55:40 <Alberth> fastest possible ship is around 80km/h iirc
20:00:33 <frosch123> Alberth: 0x80 km/h :)
20:00:59 <Alberth> much faster boats thus :)
20:12:22 <frosch123> i just like that you got the digits right :)
20:12:47 <Samu> oh, ship actually moves at 112 km/h
20:13:41 <Samu> bah, got to switch to NPF pathfinder
20:27:16 <Samu> with 1.6.1 values: ship going NE<->SW = 494 days
20:27:34 <Samu> with 1.6.1 values: ship going E<->W = 330 days
20:27:53 <Samu> goes at 112 km/h, over 2000 manhattan distance
20:28:24 <Samu> now my goal is to make E<->W = 494 days
20:30:52 <Samu> ugh, debug mode on 4096x4096 map is too slow, zzzz
20:33:45 <Samu> gonna test this in release mode
20:39:50 <Samu> if a tile is 16 steps and each step has 256 advance units, the map is 4096x4096 tiles, then crossing the map from a corner to another is...
20:43:15 <Samu> got E<->W = 611 days with speed * 2 / 5
20:43:21 <Samu> too slow, needs to be faster
20:43:41 <Samu> will try speed / 2 again
20:52:13 <Samu> it's actually 617, not 611, my bad
20:55:52 <Samu> crap, i forgot about town statues on my town growth patch
20:56:17 <Samu> company statue on the town, I wonder if they are built on those slopes I don't want to
20:59:54 <Samu> nice, looks like they don't
21:01:18 <Samu> i wonder the same about industries
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21:02:54 <Samu> with speed / 2 values: E<->W = 492 days
21:03:13 <Samu> it's not really 494 days, but considering it's travelling 2000 tiles
21:08:47 <Samu> is it possible to improve vehicle speed accuracy?
21:09:17 <Samu> 112 km/h is kind of a low number
21:09:56 <Samu> it is 224 in the code, right?
21:10:51 <Samu> math operations on these values seem to be the issue
21:11:05 <Samu> they're not precise, it only keeps the integer
21:17:04 <Samu> 3 / 2 = 1 according to game logic :(
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21:34:23 <_dp_> somebody fix it already before Samu spams the crap out of this channel xD
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21:44:03 <Samu> I was actually waiting for u
21:44:35 <Samu> inline uint GetOldAdvanceSpeed(uint speed) { return (this->direction & 1) ? speed : speed / 2; }
21:44:55 <Samu> try this, where it says speed *3 / 4, change it to speed / 2
21:45:11 <Samu> this one affects ships and aircraft
21:45:57 <Samu> the other, GetAdvanceSpeed, affects both trains and road vehicles, i have not tested any changes here yet, but I might
21:52:25 <Samu> they should be separated
21:57:03 <_dp_> Samu, not rly interested. Don't like you entire idea of slowing down stuff
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21:59:34 <_dp_> If anything they should be moving properly in euclidean metric imo (and they are quite close already) not some manhattan crap
22:04:54 <_dp_> Samu, how did you count those?
22:05:54 <Alberth> samu is very good at counting :)
22:06:17 <_dp_> Samu, if anything diagonals should be counted separately I think
22:06:39 <Samu> for the Axis i counted 16
22:07:52 <_dp_> Samu, anyway, I'm changing my script to work with rvs atm, would be faster than trying to argue here)
22:20:33 <Samu> i used the land information tool to help me count
22:21:31 <Samu> as the bus was advancing in pixels and the tool was still telling me that i couldn't clear the area, i counted it as a sublocation
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22:42:15 <Samu> what's the small red line after a turn, behind?
22:43:20 <Samu> doesn't seem to match my values
22:44:19 <Samu> that's a road vehicle driving on the right or on the left?
22:44:29 <_dp_> x and + are subtile coordinates, dots and squares is my attempt to get exact position
22:45:57 <_dp_> Samu, on the right, ccw outer circle cw inner, it goes from depot on bottom, you can track it from there
22:48:29 <_dp_> this can't be right, it even has different number of diagonals on turns
22:50:18 <Samu> i think the grid is misaligned by 1 square, not sure which direction
22:50:39 <Samu> but... meh, i counted by eye, i may be mislead
22:56:04 <_dp_> my grid is fine, ttd one is screwed
22:56:32 <_dp_> it goes up on y 41 and down on 21
22:57:23 <_dp_> that gives 9 and 5 %16, not very symmetric
22:59:59 <Samu> static inline doesn't let me use this->
23:00:25 <Samu> no idea what's the difference but i hope i'm not breaking the game lol
23:01:53 <_dp_> Samu, learn what static means first :p
23:06:58 <_dp_> holy crap, it's actually hardcoded in roadveh_movement.h
23:07:16 <_dp_> how does any of that make sense?
23:10:35 <Samu> roadveh_movement.h, will check it out
23:15:10 <Samu> eh seems like there's data for drive on left and drive on right, :)
23:18:14 <Samu> and stations, depots, drive-through stations, facing every direction and drive side
23:18:39 <_dp_> and this file is mostly unchanged since r1
23:19:19 <_dp_> I suspect it was extracted from original game
23:20:31 <_dp_> Where it probably was made by designers who only cared for it to look pretty, not move consistently))
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23:32:50 <Samu> this is what I did to GetAdvanceSpeed
23:32:53 <Samu> inline uint GetAdvanceSpeed(uint speed) { return (this->type == VEH_TRAIN) ? (this->direction & 1) ? speed * 3 / 4 : speed / 2 : (speed * 3 / 4); }
23:33:19 <Samu> doesn't need parentheses
23:33:36 <Samu> return (this->type == VEH_TRAIN) ? (this->direction & 1) ? speed * 3 / 4 : speed / 2 : speed * 3 / 4;
23:33:50 <Samu> the other vehicle type on this case is the road vehicle
23:33:51 <_dp_> Samu, are trains even using this function?
23:34:15 <Samu> GetAdvanceSpeed is being used for trains and road vehicles
23:34:24 <Samu> GetOldAdvanceSpeed is being used for ships and aircraft
23:34:28 <_dp_> Samu, btw it's integer division there
23:43:46 <Samu> i hope im not double pasting
23:45:01 <Samu> ugh, i didn't want to post it on the forum without testing it a little bit more
23:54:41 <Samu> This HTTP request method is not allowed.
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23:55:26 <Samu> pase.openttdcoop.org doesn't like me today
23:55:46 <_dp_> * A vehicle has to spend at least 9 frames on a tile, so the following articulated part can follow.
23:55:46 <_dp_> * (The following part may only be one tile behind, and the front part is moved before the following ones.)
23:55:46 <_dp_> * The short (inner) curve has 8 frames, this elongates it to 10. */
23:56:07 <_dp_> ok, that explains some of it...
23:58:09 <Samu> now i need to build a map to test it
continue to next day ⏵
