IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-09-03
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00:16:53 <Samu> just tried sprite_cache_size_px = 1
00:18:25 <Samu> Page File size is at ~90 MiB now
00:19:22 <Samu> but something surprised me though
00:20:01 <Samu> when i tried sprite_cache_size_px = 1 on the core i5-2500, the game became very very slow
00:20:38 <Samu> but on the piece of crap celeron from 15 years ago, it is doing good
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06:54:14 <Lejving> what does a queue between two cities mean in the timetable?
06:54:44 <Lejving> like, I want to decrease the amount of allowed trains between point A and B, do I increase the travel time or decrease?
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10:06:09 <andythenorth> asymmetrical things are bad
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11:25:57 <Lejving> my 16 stations are not keeping up anymore =/
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11:48:40 <frosch123> bah, factorio doesn't follow ottd coding style
11:49:48 <Wolf01> Since when you have rights to look in factorio code? :D
11:50:26 <frosch123> there are 7 lines in yesterdays fff
11:52:04 <Wolf01> Btw, they have automated tests, we have just asserts... a bit of unit testing in OTTD should be a good idea
11:52:10 <frosch123> V removed the weird blue outline of the underground belts
11:52:21 <frosch123> Wolf01: we have make regression
11:52:28 <frosch123> it runs on the compile farm on every commit
11:53:00 <frosch123> other than that we have hundreds of unpaid teenagers
11:53:14 <Wolf01> Oh, cool hi-res pack! Good job v
11:54:30 <Wolf01> "hundreds"... "teenagers", the majority of OTTD players is 30-50 IMO
11:55:10 <frosch123> adult people do not play citybuilder :p
11:55:48 <Wolf01> Samu looks like a 12yo indeed
11:56:58 <Wolf01> Btw, I'm having a discussion with VS about visual styles of images in UWP... I need to get rid of some weird problems
11:58:11 <Wolf01> I don't know if it's better to set up a VisualState or try with a converter from "Image = ''" to "Visibility"
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16:51:52 <Snail> I have a question for Andy if he’s here
16:51:57 <V453000> yeah, in the last month I do hi res belts at work, come home, do hires brix for a change
16:55:27 <Wolf01> V, do you have hires real life?
16:55:29 <Snail> so, I’m working to implement your “new” cargoes (cassava, beans, coffee…)
16:55:48 <Snail> do you have any new cargoes in mind? or any you might add in the foreseeable future?
16:55:56 <V453000> but holding baby so is nice res
16:56:07 <Snail> otherwise I’d have to retouch my recoloring schemes and graphics every time your cargo list is changed ;)
16:56:31 <andythenorth> Snail: cargo list will likely change every FIRS release
16:56:41 <Wolf01> I still need to hold a girl...
16:56:46 <andythenorth> [new economies -> new cargos]
16:56:56 <V453000> yeah fuck the north for new cargoes, riot 3 2 1 ...
16:57:46 <andythenorth> I am automating cargo placement for my vehicle sets :P
16:57:47 <Snail> how can sets keep up with you then?
16:57:54 <V453000> but if you do it by recolours the it isnt so bad
16:57:56 <Snail> like with cargo classes?
16:57:59 <andythenorth> I can’t keep up with myself
16:58:03 <andythenorth> CHIPS lacks FIRS cargos
16:58:20 <V453000> nuts has all cargoes have unique sprites and like 12 wagon generations :/
16:58:39 <andythenorth> use the new frosch123 thing
16:58:58 <V453000> my next train set will rely heavily on recolouring for future proof reasons
16:59:39 <andythenorth> frosch123 thing can haz a link?
16:59:43 <V453000> with frosch thing recolour should be alpha controllavle
17:01:31 <Snail> a sprite on top of another sprite?
17:01:58 <V453000> yes like industries/houses
17:02:15 <V453000> can reduce filesize massively
17:02:24 <V453000> esp useful for EZ/32bpp
17:02:56 <Snail> so you first draw the empty wagon, then you place the cargo sprite on top of it
17:07:32 <supermop> feel like making something now that work a bit quieter and wedding stuff all done
17:15:54 * andythenorth swaps asymmetrical for symmetrical
17:16:31 <Wolf01> Nah, you should make two sets, one for each driving side
17:16:52 <andythenorth> I think I did the sounds already supermop :P
17:19:53 <andythenorth> Wolf01: how’s NRT? :)
17:19:58 <andythenorth> stuck with something?
17:20:00 <supermop> my wife found that zine for me in seattle and got it due to tram on cover
17:20:29 <Wolf01> Ehm... I have no ides on how to go further O.o
17:21:12 <Wolf01> I was fiddling with something, but I was also really confused
17:22:25 <Wolf01> The main problem is that I can't understand how to fully separate it
17:23:45 <Wolf01> Once I unserstand what I have to do and how, I can start all the bits stuff and unpacket the subtypes as frosch/alberth said
17:24:06 <supermop> all trams have 2 staff until 1990, and which point running cost decreases significantly, but with non-zero chance of all trams breaking/crashing due to industrial action
17:25:35 <Alberth> always nice when people remember things you apparently said, that you have forgotten yourself already :)
17:26:07 <andythenorth> you said it in a paste which is gone from paste bin now :P
17:26:09 <supermop> where does the game store the crew number of vehicles, for reporting toll in crashes?
17:26:49 <andythenorth> Wolf01: afaict, we don’t separate street / light rail when it comes to all the tile code
17:26:50 <Alberth> oh, I don't contest saying stuff about bits, I just don't remember it :p
17:27:17 <Alberth> but if it makes sense to you, all is fine :)
17:27:59 <andythenorth> Wolf01: some places, separation or not is potato/potato
17:28:13 <andythenorth> but for drawing it definitely makes no sense to separate handling that
17:28:28 <Wolf01> andythenorth, yes, as I understood the code, it doesn't make sense to completely separate the stuff, but I can't put the subtypes in the middle right now
17:28:29 <andythenorth> were you stuck on faking a newgrf?
17:29:22 <Wolf01> I just wanted to add a non-electric tram and electric tram types for testing purpose, but all the stuff I've done relies on grf code
17:29:49 <Wolf01> (I made the dropdown dynamic as the rail one)
17:30:30 <Wolf01> Also suddenly it seem I can't tell anymore if there's a "tram" loaded, so I can only see road
17:31:06 <andythenorth> probably no vehicle matching the type?
17:31:21 <Wolf01> The loop which checked if a company could build trams (from base OTTD) only finds one road vehicle
17:31:28 <andythenorth> my inclination was to go in baby steps
17:32:36 <andythenorth> perhaps first change the 78 or so calls to RoadType so they unpack the result into StreetType and LightRailType
17:32:48 <andythenorth> but only provide the default road and tram
17:33:03 <andythenorth> that’s a clean objective, then can connect up newgrf stuff
17:33:16 <andythenorth> then handle things like drawing catenary
17:33:20 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
17:33:31 <andythenorth> then make the vehicles understand the relevant RoadType props
17:33:59 <andythenorth> in fact, vehicles first
17:34:07 <andythenorth> because need them to test with :P
17:34:12 <andythenorth> catenary second to that
17:34:35 <andythenorth> first / before catenary /s
17:38:03 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> perhaps first change the 78 or so calls to RoadType so they unpack the result into StreetType and LightRailType <- that's what I didn't understand, we already have 1 bit which tells if is road or tram, and we'll add 4 more (for each type) to store subtypes, I just have to put somewhere a function which does some bit shifting depending on roadtype
17:38:39 <andythenorth> we lose the 1 bit for road or tram ;)
17:38:46 <andythenorth> no need for it any more
17:39:31 <Wolf01> Because it's already the prop which defines what there's on the tile
17:39:34 * andythenorth looks what’s in m4
17:43:12 <supermop> 2nd gen mail car in IH colors as a freight car rather than mail/passenger when setting cc
17:45:22 <andythenorth> what’s the cargo?
17:45:36 <andythenorth> does m4 have 8 bits free for road?
17:45:51 <andythenorth> I can’t figure out if level crossings use 4 of those bits
17:46:57 <andythenorth> not sure what causes that :)
17:47:31 <supermop> i dont mind mail coloring different than passenger, but seems unintended
17:48:06 <supermop> tbh mail should color ren, and should recolor any diesel hauling it to red
17:49:51 <supermop> plus i want sector appropriate logos on side of grey freight locos
17:53:33 <supermop> this is with spi, so maying that messes with mail?
17:59:56 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> does m4 have 8 bits free for road? <- From wiki "uses 8 bits free in m8"? Also, there isn't m8, which might mean savegame bump, afterload conversion etc etc
18:00:48 <andythenorth> m8 there is a typo
18:00:55 <andythenorth> I think it’s supposed to be m4
18:03:08 <andythenorth> still not sure if there are 4 bits free in m4, or 8
18:03:13 <andythenorth> rail uses 4 of them
18:03:29 <andythenorth> and all 8 if it’s signalled
18:03:43 <andythenorth> so level crossing tiles don’t have any bits free in m4?
18:04:02 <Wolf01> Looking in landscape.html
18:04:40 <Wolf01> Roads don't seem to use m4
18:05:22 <Wolf01> Rail uses all for signals and fence
18:05:37 <andythenorth> level crossing tiles have no signal?
18:05:52 * andythenorth guessing at this point :P
18:05:56 <Wolf01> No, it's not possible a signal on crossing
18:07:08 <Wolf01> Crossing is on m5 on roads
18:08:59 <andythenorth> ok so we use m4, two blocks of 4 bits, per StreetType and LightRailType
18:09:10 <andythenorth> deprecate m7 7..6 (road, tram)
18:10:03 <andythenorth> Alberth: you pasted some code which would unpack RoadTypes to StreetType and TramType a few months ago ;)
18:10:06 <andythenorth> but…I lost it :P
18:10:42 <Wolf01> I have logs, but I don't remember if I was here, and I wouldn't look for "alberth" in my logs
18:19:08 <Alberth> I checked my logs around "StreetType" and I have no posted pastes there
18:20:21 <Alberth> I don't have that paste name in my logs, except for today
18:22:23 <frosch123> judging by the coding style neither me nor albert wrote that :p
18:22:52 <frosch123> anyway, what is the status for noroadtypes?
18:23:24 <Wolf01> Some gui separation for now, and a lot of confusion
18:23:40 <frosch123> do you store a streettype and a tramtype in the map?
18:24:26 <frosch123> i prefer to ignore all the track-compatibility stuff, and just go for more graphics
18:24:46 <frosch123> for that you need a concept how to layer the sprites
18:25:26 <frosch123> like, road underlay, walkway, tram-overlay, pylons, wires, ...
18:25:32 <frosch123> not sure whether in that order :)
18:25:58 <Wolf01> Defined by grf, which is the thing I'm not really good at
18:26:41 <Wolf01> (I can't even define a copy of a current roadtype)
18:27:00 <frosch123> first you need to define what the roadtype actually defines :)
18:27:03 <Wolf01> Also I think I'll have to revert that catenary thing I added last time
18:27:14 <frosch123> what is underlay, what is baseset, what is newgrf
18:27:48 <frosch123> like for rail: there is a grass-only-groundsprite from the baseset, then a railtype-underlay and railtype-overlay
18:27:59 <frosch123> how to compose roads though?
18:28:09 <frosch123> how to add walkways? trees? lamps?
18:28:13 <Wolf01> Looking at the landscape doc I think with layers we should be able to remove also the m7 bit 5
18:28:31 <frosch123> what is provided by baseset, what by roadgrf?
18:29:27 <frosch123> Wolf01: rails also have that snow bit :)
18:32:34 <andythenorth> should tram provide rails and underlay?
18:32:39 <andythenorth> underlay is only show if no road
18:32:49 <andythenorth> or are there separate sprites for with / without road?
18:35:15 <Wolf01> So, should I start with the paste stuff?
18:35:53 <Wolf01> Or we need another session of brainstorming?
18:37:19 <andythenorth> the stuff I pasted is junk maybe
18:37:44 <andythenorth> I can find no local copy of the paste alberth gave me :P
18:41:16 <Wolf01> What about m6 bits 5..3? How whe should interact with them?
18:43:43 <andythenorth> what are the m6 bits doing?
18:44:35 <Wolf01> But there are distinctions between paved and unpaved road
18:45:26 <andythenorth> oh yeah found them
18:45:34 <andythenorth> weird indenting in landscape.html
18:46:04 <Wolf01> Because those could only appear with m5 bit 7 clear
18:47:11 <Wolf01> And the m6 bit 4? Cat ate that?
18:47:51 <andythenorth> seems those bits are unaffected by notroadtypes?
18:47:52 <Wolf01> Oh wait, only 3 bits, its a decimal number not the bit position
18:48:46 <Wolf01> What about an unpaved tram in the middle of a city?
18:49:20 <Wolf01> Or some other weird combination
18:49:54 <andythenorth> I think those bits are set by town zone no?
18:53:03 <frosch123> just ignore those bits :)
18:53:11 <frosch123> leave them to the default roads
18:53:18 <frosch123> newgrfs will have their own idea of townzones
18:55:49 <Wolf01> 5. split types in global construction menu -> done
18:56:39 <Wolf01> I'm the gui guy, it was the easiest thing (I did it also to get again confidence with the ottd code)
18:57:24 <frosch123> i have no bitbucket account either though :p
18:58:43 <frosch123> so you already have a spec?
18:59:36 <Wolf01> In words I think yes, we should do a map of bits and features
18:59:56 <frosch123> i put the sidewalks onto the lowest layer, so that they can be used from the baseset, similar as for bridges
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19:00:11 <frosch123> that allows new tramtypes with default road
19:00:23 <frosch123> but disallows roads from designing the border
19:00:36 <frosch123> i.e. yout cannot make all-yellow roads
19:00:49 <frosch123> since you don't know the exact pixels the baseset uses for walkway
19:01:13 <frosch123> you will always have to make assumptions about the walkway, like for bridges
19:11:19 * andythenorth making all the freight trams symmetrical
19:11:22 <andythenorth> bit of redrawing
19:11:24 <andythenorth> but is nice touch
19:12:49 * Wolf01 prepares to go out alone
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20:27:35 <Samu> visual studio is taking too long to load symbols
20:27:48 <Samu> what are these symbols for?
20:28:06 <Samu> Microsoft Symbol Servers
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20:55:21 <glx> you need symbols for debugging
20:55:34 <glx> contains functions names mainly
21:03:49 <Wolf01> Bah, outside is boring, I won't suggest it
21:07:17 <Samu> just cleaned all objects and stuff, lets hope i can debug
21:11:04 <Samu> want to prevent towns from building on tiles that contain water
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21:12:33 <Samu> town growth code is quite complex, any advice I should take into account?
21:14:24 <_dp_> Samu, depends on what you want to do
21:28:28 <andythenorth> Wolf01: outside is raining :P
21:28:41 <andythenorth> where’s that code albert gave me?
21:34:00 <Samu> I am worried about town growth deadlocks
21:34:42 <andythenorth> can’t find that code :P
21:40:04 <Alberth> andy, maybe just reconstruct it?
21:41:11 <Wolf01> Yes, it should have been just a proof of concept, not a final code
21:41:48 <V453000> I made a decision to render in cycles in blender but it's too shit
21:42:27 <Alberth> or wray, it has more Vs
21:46:13 <V453000> hm I could try to put Vray to blender :D
21:47:56 <andythenorth> it was code that I would have no idea how to write :)
21:48:16 <andythenorth> it was a replacement RoadTypes enum, and some functions to access it to pick out street or tram
21:48:44 <Supercheese> roadtypes wot wot
21:49:02 <Wolf01> I think that's my job, you have already to struggle with layers, sprite composition, catenary...
21:51:49 <Wolf01> The problem is how to structure bits. At firts I thought they were 2 indexes of grf spec, but now I'm not so sure
21:52:54 <Wolf01> What m4 stores? 2 indexes or 2 sets of flags?
21:53:28 <Wolf01> Ok, so we need to define the spec
21:53:28 <andythenorth> just an integer no?
21:54:11 <Wolf01> I always worked with flags where the integer was a combination of features
21:54:52 <Alberth> GB and SB handles keeping bits together
22:01:54 <Samu_> 7>..\src\town_cmd.cpp(1048): warning C4554: '&': check operator precedence for possible error; use parentheses to clarify precedence
22:02:12 <Samu_> if (TrackStatusToTrackBits(GetTileTrackStatus(tile, TRANSPORT_WATER, 0)) & TRACK_BIT_ALL != TRACK_BIT_NONE) return false;
22:08:14 <Wolf01> I would like to start from scratch
22:13:24 <Alberth> I could see roadtypes.h also in src/table, eventually
22:13:40 <Wolf01> Then I found I could just check the misc flags to know ifa a vehicle was a tram :P
22:14:00 <Alberth> one more mystery solved :)
22:14:24 <andythenorth> yeah it’s just a bool
22:14:25 <Wolf01> But a proper property should be better
22:14:51 <andythenorth> it will likely just be a match between vehicle label and available roadtype labels
22:15:05 <Wolf01> As a misc flag could be used to define which variant of light rail could travel to
22:15:21 <Wolf01> Or other non-important stuff
22:16:25 <Wolf01> There is the roadtypes.h, line 752
22:17:22 <Samu_> if ((TrackStatusToTrackBits(GetTileTrackStatus(tile, TRANSPORT_WATER, 0)) & TRACK_BIT_ALL) != TRACK_BIT_NONE) return false;
22:18:29 <Wolf01> I'm really open for suggestions
22:21:22 <supermop> hm what looks better, lay up on down track before up turn, build bay platform and lay up in bay, or build siding/yard down from station to lay up and turn in?
22:23:08 <supermop> layup on the down track is iffy as next down through train comes past 4 days after the train tuns
22:23:44 <supermop> vulcan with 5 tile rake likely can't accelerate fast enough to clear the line
22:24:31 <supermop> the minimalist crossover is cute though
22:26:39 <supermop> i guess waiting in a bay platform is good for station raating
22:28:49 * andythenorth can hear Massive Attack playing
22:34:06 <supermop> dont think i've heard massive attack in a good 10 years
22:34:55 <andythenorth> they’re playing live now
22:35:01 <andythenorth> about 2 miles away :P
22:35:16 <andythenorth> open air concert, much rain
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22:41:01 <Wolf01> With the air conditioner on I can hear a cover band playing, just behind my home (300m), don't know which group :P
22:44:48 <Samu_> _grow_town_result - there are several results, hmm must find the list
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