⏴ go to previous day
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09:51:46 <andythenorth_> o/
09:57:31 <andythenorth_> Is cat
10:05:12 <andythenorth_> Cat ship
10:08:09 <Alberth> hi hi
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10:10:25 <Alberth> ship run by cats? :)
10:10:55 <andythenorth_> Yup
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11:20:04 <andythenorth> Ship generations
11:20:16 <andythenorth> Squid only has two
11:20:27 <andythenorth> Roughly 100 years apart
11:22:13 <andythenorth> Probably fine
11:23:01 <andythenorth> I was considering three, fifty years apart
11:25:46 * andythenorth has no question :p
11:26:18 <andythenorth> But fewer generations means fewer sprites to draw
11:26:30 <Alberth> :)
11:26:35 <andythenorth> And makes similar-but different easier for sprites
11:26:50 <Alberth> yep, that should be quite easier
11:27:15 <andythenorth> So my initial plan was 10 freight types, 3 sizes each, 3 generations
11:27:30 <andythenorth> now 2 sizes, 2 generations
11:27:41 <andythenorth> 90 -> 40
11:27:45 <Alberth> lots of less pixels :)
11:28:04 <Alberth> sort of minimal set, I guess
11:28:41 <andythenorth> Less minimal than squid, more variety of cargo types
11:29:51 <andythenorth> Refrigerated, livestock, tanker, edibles tanker, logs, fruit, supplies, powder tanker
11:29:58 <andythenorth> Etc
11:31:32 <andythenorth> Dunno what to do about general cargo
11:31:55 <andythenorth> RH has all of box, bulk, and open trucks
11:32:12 <andythenorth> Which overlap somewhat,nbut give visual choices
11:32:48 <andythenorth> Open trucks refit absolutely everything
11:33:08 <andythenorth> I have some kind of box ship
11:33:26 <andythenorth> But bulk and open might be same for ships
11:39:20 <andythenorth> :o http://maritime-executive.com/media/images/article/Photos/Vessels_Large/Cropped/imoto%20lines%20container%20ship%2016x9.jpg
11:41:56 <Alberth> :D
11:42:25 <Flygon> Jetfreighter
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12:13:44 <argoneus> good morning train friends
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12:20:46 <Alberth> o/
12:23:00 <frosch123> moi
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13:49:10 <andythenorth_> 'Ship' or 'trader', 'coaster', 'barge' etc for names?
13:49:43 <Alberth> if you don't mind reality, there is no reason not to put the steering wheel at the front of the ship :)
13:50:05 <Alberth> "Ship" is a bit stupid, isn't it?
13:50:12 <andythenorth_> Probably
13:50:18 <andythenorth_> 'Bulk ship'
13:50:59 <Alberth> bulk carrier ? not sure if that even exists :)
13:51:16 <andythenorth_> Bulk Carrier is a thing
13:51:36 <andythenorth_> Orders of magnitude bigger than ttd sizes though
13:51:48 <Alberth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulk_carrier bulk freighter also used for it
13:53:30 <Alberth> "bulker", also nice :)
13:54:49 <andythenorth_> 'Freighter' works
13:55:21 <Alberth> you seem to have covered all the usual names https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_ship
13:55:26 <andythenorth_> There are two sizes, dunno if they need 'large" and 'small'
13:58:50 <andythenorth_> Probably not, the visual difference will be obvious
14:05:36 <Alberth> unless the visual size and cargo capacity don't match :p
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14:09:11 <andythenorth_> Hmm
14:09:32 <andythenorth_> I have a workable scheme and some sketches
14:10:00 <andythenorth_> Ships for piece goods, bulk, maybe flat-deck
14:10:09 <andythenorth_> Special types also
14:10:34 <andythenorth_> But there is the problem of unknown cargos :p
14:11:26 <andythenorth_> Might need an 'all cargos' ship :|
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14:14:57 <Alberth> the 'any ship' :)
14:19:26 <andythen_> Dunno what it should look like
14:20:21 <andythen_> Problem is how to show cargo, which might be in holds, on deck, or 'unknown'
14:21:56 * andythen_ has an idea
14:25:52 <Alberth> make a generic container-ish thing?
14:26:07 <Alberth> or big stacks of crates or so
14:26:16 <Alberth> looks always nice
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16:20:04 <argoneus> andy then
16:20:05 <argoneus> andy now
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16:23:03 <andythenorth> Should river be player-buildable? o_O
16:23:35 <Alberth> just use canal?
16:25:22 <debdog> sometimes it'd be nice to be able to move a river out of the way to build tracks
16:25:28 <andythenorth> Looks ugly :)
16:25:36 <andythenorth> Newgrf perhaps?
16:26:32 <Alberth> a canal newgrf with river-ish sprites would work :)
16:27:03 <andythenorth> CanalTypes :p
16:27:32 <Alberth> but mankind typically builds long straight rectangular things :p
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16:47:56 <andythenorth> Just tankers left to figure out :p
16:48:42 <andythenorth> In a ship set where max size is ~600t, is there any case for tanker that is >600t?
16:48:48 <Alberth> big tanker, small tanker :p
16:48:51 <andythenorth> Specific to oil rig service?
16:49:07 <Alberth> seems nice to have
16:49:31 <Alberth> or you decide that the default set is not important :p
16:49:32 <andythenorth> I think FIRS rigs can get to ~800t / month
16:51:24 <andythenorth> Hmm
16:51:48 <andythenorth> But if bigger for oil, why not bigger for iron ore, coal, wood...
16:52:59 <Alberth> then it's not an exception for oil rigs? :)
16:53:28 <Alberth> but obviously, lots of 600t ships works too
16:53:46 <Alberth> maybe even nicer, as the oilrig gets lots of visits, and they like that
16:54:15 <andythenorth> I rarely use any big ships in Squid
16:54:30 <andythenorth> Not common to have that much output
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17:00:06 <frosch123> we clearny need a 1600t edible tanker
17:03:29 <Alberth> that would be sufficient food :)
17:05:01 <andythenorth> Can you eat that much tanker? :p
17:07:03 <Alberth> frosch123: I have updated the fios rewrite patch https://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/diffs/fios_rewrite/ 130 adds a console file list cache, so up to that could be added to trunk, the other things still need a destination/use. I am in no hurry, so if you're doing something else, we can discuss this next week too
17:07:25 <Alberth> with a big enough city, you can eat anything :p
17:07:35 <andythenorth> Bbl
17:08:17 <Alberth> bye andy
17:08:25 <V453000> so max has ultra shitty edge detection and blender has super shitty shadow rendering XD
17:08:29 <V453000> tough choice
17:09:08 <Alberth> luckily, they're both good at something :p
17:09:29 <V453000> yeah but I need them to do both of those things well
17:09:50 <Alberth> likely you do
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17:11:04 <frosch123> what's the reasoning behind 40? how do you define filetype and abstractfiletype?
17:11:36 <frosch123> 60: typo in commit message
17:11:54 <Alberth> abstract is high level idea "heightmap", "save game"
17:12:08 <Alberth> file type is the detailed version, a PNG heightmap
17:12:18 <Alberth> or OLD savegame
17:13:06 <Alberth> ie you want to load a heightmap in the gui, and not a png heightmap only
17:13:34 <Alberth> this is why the thingie that the gui uses has no detailed file type
17:13:56 <frosch123> ok :)
17:14:03 <Alberth> there are 3 concepts, and we have 3 or so enums with 2 of them
17:14:16 <frosch123> 70: why is the numeric value if FT_INVALID important?
17:15:16 <Alberth> there are invalid files? :) png files, but no png compiled into the program, I guess
17:15:39 <frosch123> no, i mean, why does it need to be 7?
17:16:03 <Alberth> oh, max number we ever need? later I attach 3 bits to it
17:21:32 <Alberth> hmm, we could also have an * wildcard value for each enum, and always have a triplet, although it would be weird if at some point it's not *, but some other value
17:22:39 <frosch123> 120: when moving BuildFileList, also fix the coding style :p
17:22:46 <frosch123> (more \n in the switch)
17:25:55 <Alberth> it's fixed in the final result, so I rewrite it at some pont
17:27:25 <Alberth> in 150
17:32:07 <frosch123> ok, i read it all. but i don't see why you need to encode the enums into a integer
17:32:13 <frosch123> why not just a struct?
17:33:45 <Alberth> This seemed like the easiest approach in not killing all switches over those enums, mostly
17:34:31 <Alberth> Although, I didn't check how much chaos that would cause, tbh
17:35:11 <frosch123> they seem to be hardly used
17:35:22 <frosch123> i think you already touched all the places where they are used :p
17:36:15 <Alberth> most at least, probably
17:36:49 <Alberth> but I did that in 2 patches, otherwise I could not handle it
17:36:53 <frosch123> the SLA_ ones are used more often, the SL_ ones hardly
17:37:43 <Alberth> well, it is of course feasible to now always pass the separate concepts, instead of passing a combination of them in an integer
17:39:22 <Alberth> with or without wrapping them in a struct
17:40:51 <Alberth> but I was already quite glad I managed to get there :)
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17:42:10 <Alberth> SLA_* aren't even mine :)
17:47:01 <Alberth> FIOS_TYPE seems still be used, I didn't venture into the low level fios things
17:53:51 <frosch123> there seem to be about 30 usages of the SL_xxx all together in trunk
17:54:42 <frosch123> so, i wonder whether to replace those places, instead of adding functions to merge the stuff into a single value again
17:55:36 <Alberth> sure
17:55:46 <Alberth> I'll look into it
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17:56:05 <frosch123> stuff looks nice though :)
17:57:02 <Alberth> lots of puzzling, why is it like this? I don't understand! :)
17:57:47 <Alberth> Cleaned out a few globals, although there are lots more
17:58:00 <Alberth> but it helps :)
17:58:11 <frosch123> well, i can't wait for FT_SCREENSHOT :p
17:58:57 <Alberth> does that make sense? you can't even decide what an image is
17:59:01 <frosch123> i always have to rename screensots manually
17:59:28 <frosch123> because i cannot enter a filename inside ottd
17:59:29 <Alberth> oh, I just grab the screen :)
17:59:47 <Alberth> or a part of it, more commonly
18:00:02 <frosch123> i always press ctrl+s, go to ~/.openttd/screenshot, do ls -ltr, and rename the files to something meaningful
18:00:24 <Alberth> until you have 50 of those :)
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19:02:47 <andythenorth> supermop__: iz troll
19:02:58 <andythenorth> canada is a sovereign nation :p
19:03:29 <andythenorth> land your tanks on the beach in vancouver, canadian tanks come and shoot at you
19:03:49 <andythenorth> land your tanks in hong kong, chinese tanks come and shoot at you
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19:30:38 <MonkeyDrone> hello homosapiens o/
19:31:13 <frosch123> hoi mammal
19:39:44 <planetmaker> \o
19:51:52 <MonkeyDrone> i am a monkey, not a mammal. Thank you very much!
19:53:14 <frosch123> sounds like you are an alien
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19:53:22 <frosch123> if you do not know that monkeys are mammals
19:53:53 <frosch123> hmm, or a computer
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19:58:29 <andythenorth_> Things learnt
19:58:40 <andythenorth_> 1. Romans had wine tanker ships
19:58:58 <andythenorth_> 2. Standardised wine bottle was invented in Bristol
19:59:39 <andythenorth_> 3. 'Tons' originates from 'tuns', large containers of wine carried by ships
19:59:42 <frosch123> in bristol?
20:00:07 <andythenorth_> 4. WW1 had wine tanker trains running to the battle lines
20:00:09 <frosch123> i have never heard about wine from uk
20:00:18 <andythenorth_> We imported it :p
20:00:40 <frosch123> ah, so you bottled the stuff from the edible tanker
20:00:50 <andythenorth_> Yeah
20:01:05 <andythenorth_> My office building used to be a cork warehouse
20:01:20 <andythenorth_> Cork was imported from portugal, used to bottle wine
20:02:06 <andythenorth_> Seems wine shipping is more important than I knew :p
20:02:54 <frosch123> i wondered about a combination of tanker and tug boat
20:03:48 <frosch123> like transporting low density liquid in self-swimming containers behind the boat
20:04:02 <andythenorth_> big floating barrels? :)
20:04:27 <frosch123> yeah, bunch of barrels in some net,
20:04:31 <andythenorth_> Probably more a V thing than andy thing ;)
20:04:35 <frosch123> s/net/mesh/
20:04:44 <andythenorth_> V should shipz
20:09:15 <Alberth> they do that with logs of wood :)
20:10:15 <andythenorth_> I like this one, with round tanks on deck https://static.vesselfinder.net/ship-photo/9402653-245405000-7ca6babd2a94cfd486449147c7ad4728/0
20:11:01 <Alberth> clearly you should not provide cargo ships for ordinary cargo, only for special stuff that looks good
20:11:10 <frosch123> horizontal tanks are certainly unusual
20:11:14 <frosch123> which makes it good :)
20:12:01 <Alberth> I would not be surprised if that's something of an industry that is being built somewhere
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20:15:42 <andythenorth_> Nah, it's edible oil tanker, they tend to have extra deck tanks
20:16:08 <andythenorth_> Dunno why
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20:17:54 <andythenorth_> http://maritime-connector.com/ships_uploads/oranjestad-8828343-vegetable-animal_oil_tanker-9-140815.jpg
20:18:16 <andythenorth_> Cheap conversion from cargo ship :p
20:21:27 <Alberth> so many unique ships :)
20:23:25 <frosch123> does that count as open lids?
20:23:55 <frosch123> hmm, i guess it's just a river boat
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20:24:28 <frosch123> it looked so tall, but considering the cabin it is actually small
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21:53:01 <supermop__> no reason set should have flags
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21:54:55 <supermop__> i'd be curious as to what flag they give a tram from taipei
21:55:07 <Supercheese> White star of RoC?
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21:55:47 <supermop__> Supercheese: that fails their criteria though
21:55:59 * Supercheese shrugs
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21:56:14 <Supercheese> IMO it's too bad the communists won that particular civil war
21:56:14 <supermop__> taiwan doesn't compete as RoC at olympics, but as Taipei
21:56:23 <Supercheese> but that's neither here nor there
21:56:46 <supermop__> Supercheese: well according to some readings the war is simply in a stalemate
21:57:00 <Supercheese> like the Korean War, eh?
21:58:01 <supermop__> and other arguments can be made that leagally Formosa is still a Japanese territory, and as the Japanese army was instructed to surrender to the Nationalist army specifically,
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21:59:36 <Supercheese> whenever I play World War 2 simulators (e.g. Hearts of Iron), I always like to ensure the nationalists win over the PRC
21:59:46 <supermop__> that Japan ceded the island to RoC only, not any larger concept of 'China' of which PRC is the current successor state
22:00:49 <supermop__> As Formosa was not part of China at the beginning of the sino-japanese war, but had been ceded to Japan by Imperial China at the end of the 19th Century
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22:01:48 <Supercheese> looks like IRC is having a civil war...
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22:02:21 <supermop__> the argument being therefor that treaties between japan and china at the end of ww2 do not adequately address the issue of Taiwan's status as it was not 'at stake' in the war
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22:03:41 <supermop__> the treaties generally compell japan to return it's illegally occupied territories to their administrators per status quo ante bellum
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22:06:27 <supermop__> RoC argues that Tawian was not illegally occupied during the war, but rather was a Japanese territory, as Vietnam was a French territory, therefore even though PRC is the recognized successor to RoC on the mainland, this does not apply on Taiwan
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22:07:26 <supermop__> so Japan's action to surrender taiwan to RoC forces is independent from other treaties at the end of the war
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22:08:41 <Supercheese> probably part of why they still exist, rather than being attacked again by the PRC
22:08:46 <supermop__> that and the bad PR
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22:08:56 <Supercheese> the layers and layers of deliberate ambiguity
22:09:01 <Supercheese> sure make analysis difficult
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