IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-05-31
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02:36:54 <Samu> new version of my stuff posted
02:40:02 <Eddi|zuHause> so... that was a panicked "help, it installed windows 10" session...
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05:00:09 <Supercheese> Kamnet posting the release announcement, interesting
05:05:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: well, a few days ago, microsoft pushed the update to loads of people, with a message like "we scheduled the automatic upgrade" without the option to cancel it from that message
05:05:58 <Flygon> Yeah, I fully fucking understand :(
05:06:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: and now my mother called me, that it did that, and she can't connect to the wifi to activate it
05:06:09 <Flygon> I had to fix that shitfest my end too >_>
05:06:29 <Flygon> Thank goodness for the automatic Windows 7 archive
05:08:23 <Eddi|zuHause> and my mother, completely technically illiterate, doesn't understand sentences like "look for a network cable and connect it"
05:09:11 <Eddi|zuHause> and then try to tell someone over the phone how a network cable looks like...
05:11:21 <Flygon> Yeah, I just realized the reason you might want network up is so you can remote in...
05:11:53 <Eddi|zuHause> not even that, just the windows activation needs online access
05:12:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and there was apparently no button for "skip this part", like for older windows where that started a 30 day trial
05:12:58 <Mazur> But shirley you don't want to inflict W10 on her???
05:13:32 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i have not a lot of choices...
05:13:55 <Flygon> It's possible to downgrade back to 7 or 8
05:14:14 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but i'm not going to do that over the phone
05:14:47 <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm also not going to drive to her at 2AM
05:15:21 <Flygon> Hence my comments about remoting in
05:15:47 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a horrible idea...
05:16:43 <Eddi|zuHause> all she needed was either the wifi password (which she didn't find) or a cable (which, after like half an hour of talking her into looking for it, she actually found)
05:17:14 <Flygon> I gott brb, either way...
05:17:32 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not like she ever needed the wifi password
05:33:05 <Eddi|zuHause> "Air by Bach" is a nice piece...
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07:27:51 <argoneus> good morning train friends
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09:29:19 <Wolf01> lol... I can't even... I asked for investigation on a key I can't redeem on steam because it needed the complete game (it contains the complete game, it's a collection) and the customer support sent me another key without even asking for mine
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10:07:12 <Wolf01> and the winner is "even this key has the same problem"... it looks there's something wrong with steam
10:16:02 <peter1138> Yikes, simutrans is ugly :p
10:17:10 <Wolf01> nah, with a decent graphics set it avoids at least to make your eyes bleed
11:00:20 <Wolf01> lol... in the discussion forum of simutrans on steam there are a lot of posts of people who doesn't even know what they are saying
11:01:40 <Wolf01> specially when they are talking about openttd :'D
11:07:41 <monsted> did someone fork openttd and put the result on steam?
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13:35:34 <Samu> what is this folder for? trunk/bin/ai/regression ?
13:40:24 <Samu> do i need to include the file trunk/bin/compat_1.7.nut if I want to share my build of openttd as a zip?
13:41:13 <Samu> oops, trunk/bin/ai/compat_1.7.nut and trunk/bin/game/compat_1.7.nut
13:42:57 <planetmaker> you should share what make bundle gives you (that's what it's for) and not cherry-pick yourself (yes those compat*.nut are part of it).
13:45:20 <Samu> is that option in visual studio?
13:54:42 <Samu_> there is no bundle folder
13:56:59 <Samu_> Makefile.msvc is that it?
13:57:29 <Samu_> I don't know what to do with these files
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14:12:24 <Wolf01> V453000, is tomorrow the day?
14:14:21 <Eddi|zuHause> tomorrow is probably a day.
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16:46:32 <Samu_> I'm always stumbling upon it
16:50:46 <Alberth> didn't you write a patch for it?
16:51:41 <Samu_> nop, I couldn't fix it, i gave up
16:51:55 <Samu_> i found the cause, but don't know what to do
16:52:35 <Samu_> the setting is not synchronized in time when InvalidateData is called.
16:52:46 <Samu_> because it's doing network stuff...
16:54:21 <Alberth> I am not even sure that's something that makes sense to do in this way, tbh
16:59:31 <Samu_> sorry I don't understand the question
17:00:21 <Alberth> what is the purpose of allowing 0 players in a MP game?
17:00:31 <Samu_> that's the AI Config window
17:00:49 <Samu_> the max no competitors is for ais
17:01:28 <Samu_> only happens in multiplayer, not in main menu or sigle player
17:01:57 <Alberth> I am asking about purpose
17:02:45 <Alberth> you answered "where is this issue"
17:02:56 <Alberth> but that's an entirely different question
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17:02:59 <Samu_> ah, I find that at times, 0 AIs can be helpful if I don't want to pause the server
17:03:20 <Samu_> at least on my patch, that is :(
17:03:38 <Samu_> it would allow me time to configure AIs without having them start immediately
17:03:53 <Samu_> then i could raise that value once I'm ready to let them start
17:04:01 <Samu_> without even pausing the server
17:04:37 <Samu_> but in 1.6.0, yeah, not too helpful, setting it to 0 locks every config
17:06:15 <_dp_> is that just number of ai's? I'd say anything but 0 makes little to no sense in mp game xD
17:07:14 <Alberth> afaik it is an 'experimental feature to have AIs' in MP
17:07:59 <Alberth> but it's weird as you take places of normal users, afaik
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17:08:50 <Alberth> could be nice if an AI could play if there is no human online, perhaps
17:09:36 <Alberth> although I would not like that
17:09:55 <Samu_> AI's manage their own company
17:10:04 <Samu_> they're not taking over human companies
17:10:35 <Alberth> yeah, but having an AI means you have one less human company
17:11:27 <_dp_> whole concept of having ai's in mp looks deceiving to me. it makes server look like there are people while in fact there are none
17:11:46 <Samu_> I find that the ideal number of AIs where ppl actually join and play is 1, max 2
17:12:00 <Samu_> and they have to be reallly reallly slow
17:13:40 <_dp_> people join mp to play with other people, they can play with robots in sp if they want
17:15:51 <Samu_> IConsoleSetSetting("difficulty.max_no_competitors", new_value); - this line is the culprit
17:16:15 <Samu_> it sends the new_value over the network
17:16:24 <Samu_> it's put into some queue
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17:16:50 <Samu_> by the time InvalidateData is called, the value is still not there
17:17:10 <Samu_> and messes up the disable/enable widgets states
17:18:11 <Alberth> it should update the buttons again while leaving the queue, I think
17:18:21 <_dp_> if I understood it correctly there should either be invalidatedata after network settings are updated, or gui should just use local number (that in also shows) for determining arrows state
17:19:48 <Alberth> likely, the local number can also be changed by other means, eg console
17:20:05 <Alberth> something invalidate sounds like the better alternative
17:20:35 <_dp_> but then you have network delay between gui updates
17:20:36 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: ever thought that different people might play [multiplayer] games for vastly different reasons?
17:22:01 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, at least I know for a fact that >50% of players in mp play without ai's :p
17:22:14 <_dp_> dammit, that's for advertised servers only...
17:22:40 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: how is ">50%" an argument for anything?
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17:23:03 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: >50% of all players do not play multiplayer => there should be no multiplayer.
17:23:53 <Alberth> I like this reasoning, you can pretty much shoot down anything :)
17:27:46 <_dp_> well, if feature is mostly used to deceive players isn't that a good cause to do smth about it? ;)
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17:30:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm questioning your statistical backing on this statement
17:30:41 <_dp_> and, btw, that's just an answer for your >50% question, I'm not saying ai's are being used for anything like that now
17:34:51 <_dp_> for that exact statement I do have some statistics though :p
17:35:49 <Samu_> oh wow, omg, i think I fixed it, omg...
17:36:17 <Samu_> GetGameSettings().difficulty.max_no_competitors = new_value;
17:36:24 <Samu_> i never expected this would work
17:36:39 <Wolf01> I'm >50% convinced of watching an anime right now
17:37:32 <Alberth> I'm >50% convinced wolf has both eyes open :)
17:37:32 <Samu_> sometimes I convince myself that certain things would never work that I don't even try them
17:37:45 <_dp_> in last two months more than 50% of player-hours were spent on btpro + reddit + n-ice + ttd-polska (among public servers)
17:39:22 <andythenorth> I’m 50% convinced my code doesn’t work
17:39:52 <Samu_> I could have tried this a long time ago, like when I reported the bug
17:40:29 <Alberth> that's easy, either it works or it doesn't :p
17:41:08 <_dp_> not exactly, it's just clearly more than half, can give exact numbers if you want
17:41:14 <andythenorth> I had to try it twice to be sure :P
17:41:18 <andythenorth> could have been user error
17:41:33 <andythenorth> I’m 100% convinced that I hate the Road Hog codebase
17:41:36 <Samu_> let me make sure I am in a multiplayer game
17:41:55 <Alberth> andythenorth: you hate all your code bases :p
17:42:45 * andythenorth tries to think of a counter example
17:42:54 <_dp_> 98601 vs 188500, they aren't exactly accurate ofc, but pretty good estimate (from 9 feb with some gaps)
17:44:34 <Samu_> also working in single player, omg, why was it so simple :( lol, oh well, it works, I'm happy
17:45:00 <Samu_> do I have to submit a patch?
17:45:09 <Samu_> it's just a line that needs replacing
17:46:28 <Eddi|zuHause> all your code base are belong to us
17:47:28 <Wolf01> I wanted to say something like that, but I thought it was too much a clichè, but the odds were me or you :D
17:52:14 <_dp_> Samu_, that's a wrong way to fix it btw, if you ask me
17:52:37 <_dp_> Samu_, instead of waiting for actual setting change you just voluntarily assume it will happen
17:53:38 <_dp_> Samu_, and if it rly doesn't you'll get desyncs
18:01:31 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 5 weeks, 2 days, 23 hours, 26 minutes, and 26 seconds ago: <DanMacK> @seen andythenorth
18:01:44 * andythenorth is short of 1 truck type
18:02:01 <andythenorth> also there’s only so many variants of cab that can be drawn at this scale :P
18:03:20 <Wolf01> put some Colani's ones
18:06:33 <andythenorth> wasn’t that done already? o_O
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18:07:04 <Wolf01> yes, but this would stop you?
18:07:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd avoid extravagant stuff like that...
18:07:53 <Wolf01> then put japanese ones
18:07:56 <Eddi|zuHause> they work fine as cute oddities, but if all the trucks that you use look like that, it becomes bad
18:08:17 <Eddi|zuHause> it's why i don't like most briges
18:11:40 <Wolf01> I even managed to see one on my last trip
18:12:01 <Wolf01> too bad it was in the morning
18:18:44 <Islacrusez> anyone fluent in German that I could bug for a bit via PM on a very off-topic subject?
18:20:06 <Eddi|zuHause> why would you expect to find a german here?
18:20:32 <V453000> I don't really know, I don't think anybody really knows :D
18:20:43 <V453000> we just do whatever we can and keep the mindset "we release asap"
18:21:09 <Wolf01> just release it, then patch it
18:21:28 <V453000> at least catching the most common bugs is good
18:21:40 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: it's a tricky tradeoff between "release when ready", and "release now, even if not ready"
18:22:02 <V453000> yeah sure, but if it crashes to the point that you likely can't really enjoy the new features, it's ass
18:22:16 <V453000> for example now it crashed cause fire destroyed a miner
18:22:18 <Wolf01> it's always the same, developers try to kill all the bugs they find and when people can fiddle with the software they'll open the ant nest :)
18:22:25 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. i fear KSP fell into that trap
18:23:08 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: rest assured that people will find a lot more bugs than you can.
18:24:37 <Wolf01> btw, good job, I'll wait (hypehypehype) patiently for it ;)
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18:27:45 <Islacrusez> Eddi|zuHause, mostly just because I'm already here; so just checking in case there is one; also since I need someone also fluent in English, an English-speaking channel is not so far-fetched
18:27:48 <Samu_> so.. it can't be fixed :(
18:28:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Islacrusez: you probably get better answers if you just state what you want
18:28:17 <V453000> I believe we release on friday tbh
18:28:18 <Wolf01> Islacrusez, >50% of people involved with OTTD seem to be German :P
18:28:26 <Islacrusez> That I did not know
18:28:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: in my perception it's about evenly split by english, dutch and german
18:28:49 <Islacrusez> or are you just being mean and referencing /someone/ and their doodgy 50% stats from earlier
18:29:18 <Eddi|zuHause> and then 10% the rest of the world
18:30:13 <Islacrusez> Fine, I'll ask, the on-topic discussion has quietened down anyway; what would Glücksritter translate to, as a medieval RPG class?
18:31:07 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a movie called "Die Glücksritter" with eddie murphy (i think), maybe look up that english name?
18:31:26 <Wolf01> looks like it means "soldier of fortune"
18:31:37 <Eddi|zuHause> technically, "glück" is "luck" and "ritter" is "knight"
18:31:54 <Eddi|zuHause> but that particular combination i wouldn't quite associate with medieval times
18:33:09 <Islacrusez> yeah, I've put it through the wringer of google translate (the long way to translating an entire book, to be sure) repeatedly to identify the parts of the word and the various possible translations; I'm just not happy with my end result so far, so I was hoping to find someone who's more familiar with such things
18:34:33 <Eddi|zuHause> needs more context, i think
18:35:51 <Islacrusez> I have the entire passage about the class in german, as well as the (unrefined) translation; I also have an illustration but not sure if I can share that
18:35:55 <Islacrusez> would you like one of the above?
18:36:23 <Eddi|zuHause> all of those would be helpful, i assume
18:36:55 <Eddi|zuHause> also, with classes it can be helpful how it distinguishes itself from the other classes
18:37:08 <Islacrusez> is there a better way to share the text other than pasting a wall of text into IRC?
18:37:29 <Eddi|zuHause> pastebin.com for example
18:38:02 <Alberth> paste.openttdcoop.org
18:38:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: well, i wasn't advertising that because i'm not sure how that is going to be frowned upon for non-openttd content
18:39:39 <Alberth> fpaste.org fedora site
18:39:55 <Alberth> debian probably also has one
18:40:06 <Islacrusez> again the translation is exactly as it comes out of google, so caution is advised; I go through and rewrite it afterwards once I'm happy with my understanding of what it means
18:40:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Islacrusez: in general, i'd think a glücksritter is a person who's mostly interested in their own welfare rather than noble or selfless causes
18:40:53 <Islacrusez> as far as I can tell, it's the handsome rogue, rather than a rogue rogue in the conventional sense
18:41:42 <Eddi|zuHause> more like a trickster
18:42:39 <Islacrusez> I'm leaning away from Mercenary, since those were professional soldiers, and I'm not sure if this class really fits that
18:42:53 <Eddi|zuHause> no, mercenary is definitely not right
18:44:06 <Eddi|zuHause> the grammar of the "translation" is abysmal, i'm not bothering to read that
18:44:25 <Islacrusez> other classes (non-magical classes) are: Assassin/Spy, Barbarian, Bard, <this one>, Trader, some sort of warrior/soldier, Cleric, Rogue, Ranger
18:44:35 <Islacrusez> Eddi|zuHause, I did warn you >.>
18:45:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that may be a bit more specific
18:46:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Islacrusez: i think "Soldier of Fortune" is probably good enough as a translation
18:47:46 <Wolf01> that's what in italian is called "soldato di ventura" and it is really close to the description you provided... and it translates to soldier of fortune
18:48:15 <Islacrusez> "Fortune Seeker" and "Fortune Hunter" also come up as potential candidates; would either of those work better?
18:48:21 <Islacrusez> otherwise SoF it is
18:48:50 <Eddi|zuHause> those are not terrible
18:50:17 <Islacrusez> never thought I'd be this stuck on what to call a happy-go-lucky roguish fighter
18:50:53 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not really a "fighter" in that sense
18:51:28 <Eddi|zuHause> think The Doctor... a person who rather talks himself out of a fight
18:52:41 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but the blade is more for show. the description says he isn't really interested in learning weaponry
18:53:08 <Eddi|zuHause> rather in undermining authority
18:53:11 <Islacrusez> or possibly these are medieval times and everyone knows how to handle some sort of blade; so I guess, yeah
18:54:04 <Samu_> Do you know why max_no_competitors needs to be sent or sync over the network? It's the server that starts AIs, not the clients, or am I missing something?
18:54:26 <Eddi|zuHause> or think the brothel guy from game of thrones
18:55:27 <Eddi|zuHause> or possibly also the dwarf guy
18:56:45 <Eddi|zuHause> people who don't technically have any ambition to sit on the iron throne, but know their way around
18:57:55 <Islacrusez> dastard or rapscallion perhaps? or even just scoundrel? I'm trying to think of a word that describes the dashing rogue rather than the cloak+dagger rogue
18:58:09 <_dp_> Samu_, that's how mp works in openttd I guess, everything is done over network, clients don't trust a server, not in the slightest
18:58:24 <Eddi|zuHause> never heard those words in my life
18:59:12 <Islacrusez> they listed as archaic, which is fitting; I'm going via synonym of scoundrel
18:59:22 <Samu_> clients don't trust a server? I usually hear the opposite
18:59:45 <Alberth> basically everything gets synced
19:00:18 <Eddi|zuHause> "Schurke" [scoundrel] has more of a negative connotation than "Glücksritter"
19:01:17 <Eddi|zuHause> you wouldn't describe Tryrion Lannister as a "scoundrel"
19:01:51 <Islacrusez> I'm pretty sure I'd describe all lannisters that way, but I see your point
19:02:31 * Islacrusez might just be a little aligned towards the Stark way of thinking
19:03:07 <Eddi|zuHause> none of the Starks really fall into this "Glücksritter" category
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19:06:18 <Islacrusez> how about "dashing rogue" as the core meaning we're going for?
19:06:34 <FLHerne> Samu_: AIs run on every client afaik, like just about everything in openttd
19:07:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Islacrusez: that may describe a game mechanic, but completely loses the roleplaying aspect of it.
19:07:35 <FLHerne> Samu_: Clients don't really 'distrust' the server, they just try to do exactly the same as it, and then get upset if anything gets out of sync
19:07:58 <Islacrusez> I swear at this rate I'm going to have to email the creators and ask them what the hell they meant...
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19:20:44 <andythenorth> I’ve accidentally made a chibi truck
19:20:51 <andythenorth> looks good, should have done them all this way :P
19:21:19 <Islacrusez> andythenorth, pics or it didn't happen
19:22:18 <Samu_> If this setting is out of sync, max_no_competitors, what's the worst that can happen :o
19:22:54 <Alberth> some system may create an opponent, and others don't
19:23:16 <Samu_> it's the server who creates the AI company
19:23:21 <Samu_> I don't really understand
19:23:40 <Alberth> the server may create an opponent and clients don't
19:24:10 <Alberth> nice desync for all clients at the same time :D
19:24:23 <_dp_> Samu_, server is just a relay, it's no different from any other client when it comes to actually doing stuff
19:25:14 <_dp_> so if client is asked to create company when it thinks it's not allowed it will treat that as desync
19:25:29 <Alberth> _dp_: for AI creation in MP, Samu_ is correct; only the server constructs an AI afaik
19:25:52 <glx> and the AI runs on server only
19:26:16 <glx> commands are forwarded to all clients like any other company
19:26:50 <glx> each AI is like a virtual client
19:27:46 <_dp_> Alberth, hm, mb.. depends on whether there is any check for ai on company creation
19:29:04 <Alberth> doesn't matter much; if there isn't, it will desync on the first action performed by the AI
19:29:41 <_dp_> Alberth, mb not, if it treats it as any other company
19:30:14 <Alberth> hmm, right, could be the case indeed
19:31:31 <_dp_> looks like it, I only see check in MaybeStartNewCompany which doesn't seem to run on client
19:33:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i broke youtube's algorithm. it now suggests to me 0 videos to watch
19:33:59 <Samu_> I've experimented something about savegames that are sent to clients, a few days ago
19:34:15 <Samu_> I've made them not to save AI and GS data
19:34:15 <Alberth> Eddi: you must have seen everything there is to see :)
19:34:35 <Samu_> clients still joined and I didn't see anything odd, seemed everything was fine
19:34:41 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that’s a result, how do I achieve the same?
19:35:02 <andythenorth> YT shows me only: (1) things I’ve seen (2) things I never want to see (3) things I want to see but really shouldn’t
19:36:00 <Samu_> i just didn't thorougly tested it
19:36:21 <Samu_> played for an hour in that game, and had no desyncs or any strange behaviours
19:37:02 <Samu_> Correction, it SavesEmpty
19:37:31 <_dp_> Samu_, desyncs are hard to check, even if you never get one doesn't mean someone else won't
19:37:46 <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause: Sounds like you finished the internet
19:38:58 <Eddi|zuHause> seems to be back to normal now :(
19:40:02 <Samu_> sec, let me see what I edited
19:42:16 <_dp_> Samu_, for this particular setting though it doesn't look like there will be desyncs
19:42:44 <_dp_> Samu_, still a bad idea to change anything outside of command handling code
19:43:44 <Samu_> if I knew how to do it the right way... I would
19:48:55 <_dp_> hm, though if setting is marked as SLF_NO_NETWORK_SYNC it can be changed willy-nilly I think...
19:49:22 <_dp_> and this one doesn't seem to need sync
19:50:48 <glx> a client can't start a company anyway
19:52:34 <_dp_> glx, huh, what? clients start companies all the time
19:52:59 <glx> no it's done on the server
19:53:10 <glx> the client can't do it by itself
19:53:34 <glx> it just applies the received commands
19:54:01 <_dp_> glx, client sends CMD_COMPANY_CTRL which server relays to other clients and it gets executed everywhere
19:54:27 <Islacrusez> this discussion is absolutely fascinating, even without knowing much about the code
19:55:18 * andythenorth makes Road Hog beta 2
19:56:50 <_dp_> glx, server only determines order of execution of commands, it's no different from any other client when it comes to applying them
20:02:38 * andythenorth suspects Road Hog has horrible offset problems :P
20:02:41 <andythenorth> despite using templates
20:03:30 <Islacrusez> andythenorth, I'm still waiting for pictures of that chibi truck :P
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20:19:46 <Samu_> SLF_NO_NETWORK_SYNC where would I set this? settings.ini?
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20:37:57 <andythenorth> have I posted an unusual char? :O
20:38:17 <Alberth> depending on your country, but yes :)
20:38:32 <andythenorth> it’s copied from the commit :P
20:39:03 <Alberth> more unusual characters :)
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21:33:42 <DorpsGek> Commit by smatz :: r27595 trunk/config.lib (2016-05-31 21:33:33 +0200 )
21:33:43 <DorpsGek> -Fix: prevent GCC 6 over-optimization
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21:43:34 <Samu_> i'm changing the code about move up, move down buttons again
21:44:31 <Samu_> it now tries to find the first free slot above or below that can swap the configs
21:45:12 <Samu_> it can swap, for example, slot 4 with slot 7 even if slots 5 and 6 are busy
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23:43:50 <Samu> in the comments, is @param coming before @pre or after?
23:48:03 <_dp_> why don't you just check how it's done in other functions?
23:56:42 <Samu> ah, summary, then @note, then @param, then @ pre, then @return
continue to next day ⏵
