IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-05-27
⏴ go to previous day
00:00:09 *** Hiddenfunstuff has quit IRC
00:09:06 <Samu> this is yet my best approach
00:12:59 <Samu> seems to be doing what the documentation wants it to do
00:18:51 <Samu> :( this is tiresome work
03:04:50 <Samu> why is the forum so slow at 2:00?
03:05:20 <Samu> betweem 2:00 - 2:15 everyday it's slow :(
03:22:38 <Samu> finally was able to post
06:01:44 *** ToneKnee_ has joined #openttd
06:02:46 *** kais58__ is now known as kais58|AFK
06:42:49 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
07:58:53 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
09:00:37 *** supermop has joined #openttd
09:08:39 *** Biolunar_ has joined #openttd
09:13:54 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
09:55:53 <Ethereal_Whisper> I've got some shit turns I had to put up with on a couple lines only going to a single station or two but meh
09:57:24 <Ethereal_Whisper> I figure that there's plenty of track to get up to speed before joining the trunk despite that turn, so I just left it
10:06:07 <Eddi|zuHause> it would be trivial to extend that bridge by 1 to remove the extra bend
10:06:48 <Ethereal_Whisper> You reminded me that I habitually gave a tile at the end of the bridge for signaling purposes and then never put a signal on it
10:08:03 *** kais58|AFK is now known as kais58__
10:30:56 <peter1138> Presignals, how quaint.
10:54:08 *** Hiddenfunstuff has joined #openttd
10:54:39 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd
11:12:53 <peter1138> Using presignals for stuff that path signals work better on
11:13:21 <V453000> there still exist people in this world who want to play properly
11:13:32 <Ethereal_Whisper> I don't understand
11:13:35 <Ethereal_Whisper> What I did wrong
11:13:48 <V453000> nothing, in this channel using presignals is not allowed
11:14:29 <Ethereal_Whisper> I use them to signal station entries and priority signaling for side lines joining main lines, that's about it these days
11:14:51 <V453000> yes hence you are a criminal and should be dealt with
11:16:40 <Ethereal_Whisper> I forgot to signal a bypass line and jammed half my map lol
11:17:19 <Wolf01> nah, that should work, just don't put more trains that the station can handle, maybe one more. There is not enough waiting space
11:17:33 <V453000> thing is that specifically in stations, PBS signals do have better sheer throughput, but if you just use presignals and learn to solve the situation without making "just a big crossing from everywhere to everywhere", you learn how to make the truly proper solution
11:17:41 <V453000> PBS just lets you do the easy solution
11:18:20 <V453000> but the problem is that with bigger issues like line merging and junctions, you need those proper solutions, and if you don't learn them, no big networks for you :)
11:18:28 <Ethereal_Whisper> Yeah it's a low-capacity station. It's a pickup-only station for 2 different cargo types not far from the drop, so I Think I have 3 trains serving each side completely
11:19:06 <V453000> yeah don't worry about it
11:20:14 <Wolf01> the problem is when 2 platforms are full and the 3rd train is waiting on the bridge, no way for other trains to enter the second station
11:20:41 <V453000> yes but a lot of the time the loading times are actually so long that you don't even need that much throughput there
11:21:12 <Ethereal_Whisper> I know that the waiting bay is long enough for a 3rd train, but I haven't saturated the station with trains so the waiting bay doesn't have to be long, and in practice, doesn't actually get used
11:21:24 <Wolf01> in such case I would use as many trains as the station platforms and just build a plain T junction with PBS
11:21:57 <Ethereal_Whisper> The train length, distance to drop, etc. is as such means there's always a train loading at the station, and no train is ever blocked from exiting
11:22:59 <V453000> that's pretty exactly the worst approach Wolf01 :P
11:23:10 <V453000> if you solve junctions by signals, something is horribly wrong
11:23:12 <Wolf01> I don't play for extreme efficency
11:23:23 <V453000> in fact, a good junction doesn't need any other signal than simple block
11:23:51 <V453000> idk, having one full rail doesn't sound like extreme to me
11:24:03 <V453000> (at which point PBS T will break badly)
11:24:15 <Wolf01> I want 2 trains to be able to cross a junction at the same time if they don't need to switch, and I usually have a signal every 11+ tiles
11:24:39 <V453000> yes which is why you build bridges :)
11:24:46 <V453000> and that signal density gives me cancer
11:24:56 <V453000> why wouldn't you use spacing of 2 for signals?
11:25:37 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd
11:25:56 <Wolf01> at least, I build them if I really need them, like when I'm crossing a river, or if I'm climbing a mountain and I need to build a loop
11:26:06 <V453000> ugly is subjective perception without a reason
11:27:22 <Wolf01> no need to ragequit because the playstyle doesn't match
11:28:23 <Wolf01> V, we know you are reading the logs, you can come back ;)
11:29:09 <Wolf01> (maybe he quit for our safety)
11:30:26 <Ethereal_Whisper> I hope he knows "kappa" means sarcasm
11:30:42 <Ethereal_Whisper> I wasn't being serious when I built that junction with a turn length of 1 in all directions
11:30:58 <Ethereal_Whisper> I don't have any actual 4-way junctions in my current game
11:31:03 <Ethereal_Whisper> And the 3-way one I have is... meh
11:31:29 <Ethereal_Whisper> I don't like it, but the traffic density on the direction I don't like (west-to-south left turns) isn't very high so I haven't fixed it yet
11:32:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i never truely understood the origin or meaning of the term "kappa" (when not referring to the greek letter)
11:33:12 <Ethereal_Whisper> Some guy used it on Twitch once
11:33:50 <Ethereal_Whisper> To be fair I never truly understood the attraction to watching someone else play a game, speaking of Twitch, but I did get "kappa = sarcasm" out of it
11:39:57 <Ethereal_Whisper> Left handed track makes my head hurt
11:40:11 <Ethereal_Whisper> I have to build it occasionally sometimes, usually with primary industries that produce two types of goods
11:41:01 <Ethereal_Whisper> So peter1138 if you were to signal this farm supplies pickup station how would you do it differently than I do for a basic two-platform terminus? http://i.imgur.com/xHqBF1C.png
11:41:06 <Ethereal_Whisper> Assuming right-handed track
11:41:21 <Wolf01> sometimes I build fully bidirectional 4 lanes tracks with just pbs on the safe waiting areas and no signals in the tracks
11:42:49 <Wolf01> trains decide which lane to use, even all 4 in the same direction
11:49:41 <Wolf01> mmh, do you know what is missing for cargodist? a dedicated set of orders like "cargo for next stop is <,>,= x"
11:51:08 <peter1138> Ethereal_Whisper, just one path signal, where you have the entrance presignal.
11:51:48 <peter1138> Wouldn't've needed to move the station for that.
11:52:27 <peter1138> With path signals you don't need signals for each platform as it's a terminus, and you don't need a signal for the exit
11:52:40 <peter1138> Like that but without the exit signal
11:52:58 <Ethereal_Whisper> Move what station? It's a separate pickup station. This one supplies farming supplies, Gongfingway-on-sea South supplies chemicals from the same industry
11:53:04 <peter1138> That signal will cause the station to block unnecessarily.
11:53:07 <Ethereal_Whisper> What exit signal, there's a one-way at the entrance
11:53:32 <peter1138> I mean the signal at the junction exit (not presignal exit)
11:54:09 <Ethereal_Whisper> Can you elaborate?
11:54:16 <Ethereal_Whisper> I've zoomed in to where there are two signals
11:54:17 <peter1138> In your first picture the platforms were one block nearer the junction, heh
11:54:31 <Ethereal_Whisper> Oh, yeah, I fucked up in the original screenshot lol
11:54:35 <peter1138> Exactly, you only need the one signal.
11:54:43 <peter1138> Ethereal_Whisper, with path signals, that wasn't a fuckup.
11:54:56 <peter1138> At least, not for signal space :)
11:56:08 <Ethereal_Whisper> So I can save one tile of space by using the PBS construction it seems, for the "basic terminus" station type
11:56:31 <peter1138> yeah, only terminus though
11:58:11 <Ethereal_Whisper> So let me build an example
11:58:16 <peter1138> For that station, I'd make the first entrance presignal a path signal
11:58:27 <peter1138> And then remove the rest of the presignals.
11:58:38 <peter1138> See, it saves money ;)
11:59:28 <Wolf01> do stations count as safe waiting areas? I don't remember
11:59:43 <Ethereal_Whisper> Both stations will function the same and "Transfer" has a smaller footprint so I save space with it, is that correct?
12:01:02 <Alkel_U3> afaik stations don't function as a safe waiting area - the train needs to reserve a path up to one beyond the station
12:01:28 <Ethereal_Whisper> I think you're wrong about the RoRo station entrance though; once the exit signal is cleared by the train (and the entrance should be TL to give it ample deceleration space) then the pre-signals upstream will turn green
12:01:54 <Ethereal_Whisper> If I remove all signals from entry track then the PBS at the entrance track will stay red until the train is entirely on the platform
12:02:13 <Wolf01> eh, that's what I thought, when the train reverses and 2 trains need to exit the station at the same time they might crash
12:02:53 <Ethereal_Whisper> That's why you give load-balanced TL+1 exit paths with block signals for the merge
12:03:47 <Alkel_U3> Ethereal_Whisper: no, the point of path signals is, more trains can enter one block if they can reserve their way through without colision
12:03:58 <Wolf01> I don't use block signals or load balancers on stations, I don't need to
12:04:06 <peter1138> Wolf01, no, they'll wait to reserve a path
12:04:39 <Ethereal_Whisper> Wolf01, don't take this the wrong way, but that's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard
12:04:51 <Alkel_U3> the reservation is destroyed right behind the train as it goes
12:05:56 <Wolf01> Ethereal_Whisper, I use waypoints and PBS, and a low number of trains, I'm not an OTTDCoop guy
12:06:04 <Ethereal_Whisper> If all your lines are very low capacity then yeah, load balancing, signaling, and priority merges are all pointless, because the odds are so low that two trains will try to use the same track otherwise at any given point is irrelevant and happens once in a blue moon
12:06:58 <Ethereal_Whisper> Like there are some "proper" building techniques to balance everything that can be ignored on low-capacity side lines, or that can fuck off entirely on shunt lines
12:07:45 <Ethereal_Whisper> http://i.imgur.com/FVf8ZHE.png for example these non-doubled bridges, which are headed to a single pickup station and the chances that multiple trains will ever try to pass over in either direction is literally 0
12:07:58 <Ethereal_Whisper> So I didn't bother to double those bridges
12:08:58 <Eddi|zuHause> your argument about path signal "staying read" when a block signal would be green is still nonsense...
12:09:57 <Eddi|zuHause> if anything, the path signal could turn green one tile earlier
12:10:18 <Eddi|zuHause> because the tile the block signal is on doesn't need to be cleared
12:11:05 * peter1138 looks at reddit/openttd for amusement.
12:11:49 <Eddi|zuHause> can't imagine that being ammusing
12:12:48 <Ethereal_Whisper> I mean if you have a signal density of 8 and a general train length of 3 then yeah, capacity of the line is generally reduced and stations can be unoptimal because the amount of incoming trains is going to be low thanks to the signal gap of 8
12:13:08 <Ethereal_Whisper> There's no reason to spread trains out that much on lines though, since you can make it 2 and still have the ability to junction properly
12:15:42 <Wolf01> that wouldn't even match my playstyle, it's like building on maps which looks like motherboards, clearing mountains and filling seas
12:16:30 <Ethereal_Whisper> Well, terraforming is generally the one thing to avoid, since terraforming a large area is extremely expensive even in the late game where money otherwise generally "ceases to become an issue"
12:16:43 <Wolf01> just make a flat scenario with all industries on the edges and lay down straight tracks from one side to another
12:17:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i've seen people play like that
12:17:32 <Wolf01> I don't have any problem to flat down a mountain 10 years after starting a game in 1925
12:18:20 <Ethereal_Whisper> My bankroll is $249 million in the year 1981 currently, so building new track/stations/trains is basically "I don't care how much this costs, make it optimal" but that level of terraforming that station wasn't an insignificant chunk of change
12:18:52 <Ethereal_Whisper> It's also a left handed station for some reason, I don't remember why
12:19:03 <Ethereal_Whisper> I mean it's because of where it merges with the trunk eventually, but still
12:19:09 <Ethereal_Whisper> YAY LEFT HANDED TRACK
12:19:24 <Ethereal_Whisper> I mean I'm a southpaw IRL so you'd think I wouldn't mind it
12:19:45 <Wolf01> so, you have just $250 in 1981 trying to optimise the tracks and such?
12:19:50 <Ethereal_Whisper> But I do come from a country that drives on the right, so wrapping my head around vehicles overtaking each other on the left just fucks with my head so if I can avoid it in a game for fun then I will, lol
12:20:32 <Wolf01> I have the same amount in 1950 building like Picasso
12:21:03 <Ethereal_Whisper> Wolf01, I'm trying to build an optimal rail network, where I deliver all types of cargo possible in the game (I have an industry replacer NewGRF) and having an optimal network so trains take the shortest path possible from their pickup station to their drop station
12:21:04 <Wolf01> and clearly not even optimised
12:22:22 <Ethereal_Whisper> I mean try to deliver cargo across the entire map because for non-perishable cargo, the longer it spends in transit, the more you get paid for its eventual delivery. The curves do diminish depending on cargo type
12:23:16 <Ethereal_Whisper> http://i.imgur.com/F2dCOiE.png that's the graph with FIRS, there aren't too many super sharp drops so in general the further you take it the more you get paid to deliver it
12:26:44 <Wolf01> I know that, I play with firs too
12:27:25 <Ethereal_Whisper> That's aprinciple of the base game also, not FIRS-related
12:28:31 <Wolf01> yeah, I'm playing this game since it was published, I think I know how it works
12:30:36 <Ethereal_Whisper> So do you have an argument for playing with a signal gap of 11 for that broad of a following distance and not using prios/balanced stations other than "I don't feel like it"
12:30:47 <Wolf01> btw, these are my graphs http://imgur.com/BqiR383 not outstanding but I'm fine with the current game, I'm not looking for 1000 points or € 10000000000 profit
12:31:56 <Wolf01> I tried various play styles in these ages, and now I'm playing a style which I feel more funny, relaxed and pleasing to see
12:33:21 <Wolf01> I had my huge 8-way super-optimised junctions time too, but it doesn't worth the effort
12:34:05 <Alkel_U3> also building and extending an organic mess is just as fun >P
12:34:33 <Wolf01> I had a mammoth trains period, I had a "only road vehicles" period, in some games I start with ships...
12:34:39 <Alkel_U3> how did my keyboard layout change again...
12:34:56 <Wolf01> did you try to not press alt+shift?
12:36:16 <Alkel_U3> no, that's not it - it changed from cs-qwertz to cz-querty - that isn even achiavable throug that
12:36:41 <Wolf01> what I learned in these years is that the top is not important, the important thing is to not lose early
12:37:52 <Alkel_U3> I'm having the mammoth trains period - for cargo it seems neat, not havig so many trains :-)
12:38:53 <Wolf01> the problem with mammoth trains is the loading time, you need to have good factories, or clusters of primary industries
12:39:31 <Wolf01> I was always funding new farms/mines around the stations to keep up
12:40:54 <Alkel_U3> I learned that with firs, mainly. Big enough secondary chains
12:42:03 <Wolf01> and FIRS is even easy, you just need to delivery machinery to mines and you'll get a production boost
12:42:09 <Alkel_U3> also I try to use autorefit to my advantage as much as possible. Trains hauling steel are usually compatible with the resulting goods
12:42:44 <Alkel_U3> so I can have, like a third less trains
12:42:58 <Wolf01> yeah, that's a good thing which was added in the later times, I played without grfs in the old times
12:43:34 <Alkel_U3> also I try to set it up so that the ore haulers bring some engineering supplies on their way back
12:48:00 <Alkel_U3> it's been a few months since I played. I've been thinking about starting a new game lately but I usually get bored and quit halfway through the configuration, choice of vehicle sets and stuff :P
12:48:39 <Wolf01> yes, that's what keep me from starting a new game
12:49:07 <Alkel_U3> also I'm not sure if I should play it single or gather a few people for multiplayer. Both have had their good and bad sides so far
12:50:29 <Wolf01> I play single because otherwise we'll end up with argues like the previous one
12:52:25 <Alkel_U3> yeah, the playing styles of people tend to be a bit incompatible sometimes. I usually play different in multiplayer not because I really want to, but because people drive me to with their playing too competetively
12:52:55 <Alkel_U3> not that I blame them
12:53:43 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
12:55:05 <Ethereal_Whisper> Wolf01, I'm sorry for criticizing you for how you like to play
13:00:14 <Wolf01> no need to sorry, I'm not angry, I only don't like when people get angry with no reason because they don't like how do you play, or when somebody tries to force me to play in a way I don't like
13:00:28 <Wolf01> critics are always well accepted
13:02:32 * Wolf01 slaps V (feel free to return it when I'll behave as a dick)
13:22:03 *** JacobD88 has joined #openttd
13:23:18 <Ethereal_Whisper> Myself, the most "fun" I have is probably just to saturate lines with trains. I'm not skilled at building anything wider than double track trunks (sometimes I have the illusion of quadruple track in my games but it's really just two independent double track lines running next to each other)
13:23:24 <Ethereal_Whisper> I.e. it's LRLR not LLRR
13:23:55 <Ethereal_Whisper> More trains = more fun so I tend to keep things short (I tend to go with a train length of 3 just because)
13:24:15 <Ethereal_Whisper> I'd rather use two 3.0 trains than a single 6.0 train, for example
13:25:29 <Ethereal_Whisper> Especially since, if I went with a train length of 6, I'd feel compelled to build my turns and junctions to accommodate that train length as such
13:26:33 <Ethereal_Whisper> I do very occasionally go with a shorter train length than what I build my trunks to, for a variety of occasional reasons. For example in this game, every train has a length of 3, except my alcohol trains which have a length of 2
13:26:40 <Ethereal_Whisper> But I only go shorter than the default, never longer
13:28:50 <Alkel_U3> I think I rarely go over 12
13:30:06 <Alkel_U3> seeing a 4-tile pax express overtake a much larger and slower freight train is nice :-)
13:30:52 <Alkel_U3> seeing the freight train cut it of at the next junction because of poor routing choices is less nice but that's just part of the game :D
13:31:22 <Ethereal_Whisper> I've discovered that the max is 7 and haven't found a NewGRF that actually successfully gives me a longer train
13:32:22 <Alkel_U3> what does the successfullness mean? Like, poor performance?
13:32:45 <Ethereal_Whisper> Actually lets me build a train with a length longer than 7.0
13:33:49 <Alkel_U3> huh. Are you sure you don't have it restricted in openttd config? I havent met a set that would place such a limitation especially on cargo trains
13:34:16 <Ethereal_Whisper> Not sure, and I'm also drunk right now so lol
13:35:19 <Alkel_U3> counting down to end of the shift, then I'll join your drunkedness
13:36:29 <Alkel_U3> nothing like getting soaked with beer on friday
13:36:31 *** gelignite has joined #openttd
13:37:03 <Ethereal_Whisper> It's Friday at 4:36 a.m. here
13:38:27 <Alkel_U3> the magical time of the day. Other being 4:20
13:38:38 <Ethereal_Whisper> Where do you live?
13:39:22 <Alkel_U3> Czech republic, Prague
13:39:55 <Ethereal_Whisper> One of my favorite hockey players is Czech if you may know him
13:39:59 <Ethereal_Whisper> His name is Martin Hanzal
13:40:19 <Alkel_U3> or, Czechia, how the stupid officials decided we will represent ourselves :P
13:41:21 <Alkel_U3> unfortunately, I'm not interested at hockey at all - I even almost didn't notice the recent championship :-)
13:42:15 <Alkel_U3> I used to 18 years ago, but than Transport Tycoon dragged me from such cool stuff to work on train lines full time :D
13:42:17 <Ethereal_Whisper> I'm obsessed with hockey
13:42:31 <Alkel_U3> co, are you Canadian? :-)
13:42:50 <Ethereal_Whisper> I'm also a professional in the sport so I'm kind of also paid to be obsessed with it :P
13:50:36 <Alkel_U3> Luckily I can't showcase my spagheti mesh abomination right now :P
13:51:33 <Alkel_U3> Now excuse me while I go exchange my services for my employer's currency
14:55:22 *** gelignite_ has joined #openttd
15:03:26 *** einstein has joined #openttd
15:06:00 <Samu> microsoft is being mean with that windows 10 update
15:08:44 <Samu> they are now schedulling an automated migration from win7 to win10. If my parents weren't looking, windows would start migrating itself without notice... that is really stupid
15:12:49 <Samu> I don't understand what microsoft is trying to accomplish here, are they trying to piss off customers who don't want to migrate?
15:13:54 <Wolf01> it's simple, they don't want windows 7/8/8.1 around anymore
15:15:36 <Samu> an automated migration without user consent is just wrong
15:15:46 <Alkel_U3> yeah, but it makes some people not want windows around anymore in return. Well, their call.
15:16:25 <Wolf01> btw, I can't understand why people don't want windows 10
15:17:42 <Alkel_U3> I set up win7 for my mom, she can and needs to work with that. I don't want her calling me what the hell happened to her computer when she wasn't looking :-)
15:18:10 <Alkel_U3> the transition probably wouldn't be as painful
15:19:49 <Wolf01> I set up ubuntu 12.04 for mom and now she has 16.04, I didn't touch it and she only complained about touch pad drivers being disabled every odd update and re-enabled on even ones
15:20:22 <Wolf01> the only downside was that she wasn't able to scroll with 2 fingers
15:20:42 <Alkel_U3> the other concern is, albeit a bit paranoid, maybe, that they're steering it into a direction where I kinda worry when for example the updates will be for paing subscribers only, that it will be more a service like photoshop. But that's quite hypothetical so far
15:22:42 <Wolf01> the system updates will be free, they don't want to bother again with problems caused by vulnerable systems because people don't want to update, if you don't want to update, then internet isn't your place, please purchase an ipad (which updates itself every now and then)
15:22:46 <Alkel_U3> the software my mom needed to run because of work I couldn't get up on linux, despite it being a java thing. But it broke now so I need to teach her how to get to work over remote desktop and I can do that from linux just as well
15:23:31 <Alkel_U3> I never said I don't like updates :-)
15:24:13 <Alkel_U3> ah, ok. I thought there was a misunderstanding
15:25:48 <Alkel_U3> well, win7 should be getting support for another half-a-fourth year so I have time to think about upgrading / replacing
15:26:17 <Wolf01> the problem is that the upgrade is really free until 31 july
15:26:53 <Alkel_U3> personaly, I'll be happier to have mom running linux
15:27:08 <Samu> I doubt about that free thing
15:27:20 <Wolf01> I'm, because I don't have to bother with viruses twice a week
15:27:22 <Samu> I bet they will find a way to force the upgrade anyway
15:27:53 <Wolf01> after july they won't force anything
15:28:10 <Wolf01> you want it, you pay, you had 1 year to do it freely
15:29:16 <Wolf01> btw, I know there are paranoid people, scared by cortana and data gathering, but do you really think it wasn't hidden in old OSes?
15:29:29 <Samu> there is no Cortana in Portugal
15:30:23 <Samu> I'm not worried about data gathering stuff
15:30:47 <Samu> When i first installed Windows 10 on my system, configuration was hell
15:31:08 <Samu> they assume everyone got a microsoft account, well no
15:31:17 <Wolf01> which configuration? I only had to disable the ads
15:31:43 <Samu> they assume a set of defaults which I never cared for
15:32:07 <Samu> a password on login screen, I don't set that
15:32:27 <Samu> I don't want to "sync" my system with whatever they think it's useful over onedrive
15:32:46 <Samu> and damn it they basically treated my PC like it was a phone
15:33:28 <Samu> coming from windows 7 to windows 10, this is a huge difference, my parents would be mad
15:33:57 <Wolf01> it is the same, it changes a little if you don't really use the settings
15:34:18 <Samu> I had to re-configure them to the way I wanted
15:34:37 <Wolf01> try changing from gnome to unity desktop to the stuff they have now on ubuntu, that's madness
15:34:51 <Wolf01> but my parents didn't complain
15:35:39 <Wolf01> and they don't use the computer, they use the browser and the printer
15:35:43 <Samu> also my parents use IE, have always used IE, now there's only Edge
15:35:52 <Wolf01> like the 90% of the other people
15:36:19 <Samu> I won't even know if Office 2007 is compatible with Windows 10 without complaining about "trying out Office 365 free for 1 month"
15:36:42 <Wolf01> maybe it's because my parents are open minded and they get used if something changes
15:36:46 <Samu> this is the aversion I and my parents got about windows 10
15:38:34 <Wolf01> I had office 2013, but I purchased office 365 because it's well integrated with onedrive and I use it on my smartphone too
15:48:09 <Samu> after going throgh the hell that is re-configuring windows 10 to what I wanted, the OS isn't all that bad, but that's because I can accomodate easily to the differences. But knowing my parents, Windows 10 for them will be horrible
15:48:41 <Samu> That's why they decided to stay on Windows 7.
15:57:53 <Wolf01> it's like when they added the ribbon bar to office... disgusted people everywhere, and I found it really interesting and useful
15:58:58 <Wolf01> maybe most of the disgusted people found it useful too, but they were disgusted by principle, things must not change
16:05:34 <peter1138> Like path signals...
16:49:44 <supermop> Wolf01: everyone hated when they added the ribbon to autocad and revit, but i quite like it
16:50:36 <supermop> though i still do >90% of commands by text or hot key, i find its easier to use the more seldom-used tools now
16:50:39 <Eddi|zuHause> what's a ribbon? i always stayed away from office, it never did what i wanted it to do
16:51:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess my brain was always too far in the wordperfect mindset to get along with word...
16:51:54 <supermop> i also hated how the ribbon would change contextually but now i love that i dont need to have tons of separate toolbars and pallets out when i dont need them
16:52:20 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: a big toolbar thats about 4cm tall
16:53:17 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
16:53:17 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
16:55:54 <Eddi|zuHause> does he ever not? :p
16:57:33 <Wolf01> this time he was more pissed off, like that time I discussed about train reverse with Alberth ;)
16:57:56 *** Quatroking has joined #openttd
16:58:40 <Eddi|zuHause> some people will never understand the aesthetics aspect of the game
16:59:59 <supermop> i recall v getting angry abt bridges or something ~3 years ago and i couldn't understand his position myself
17:01:17 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i usually understand his position, but i almost never agree with it
17:01:53 <Wolf01> mmmh, I have an elbow bigger than the other... or maybe it's the shirt
17:03:01 <supermop> i mean there are at least 20 distinct "main" ways to play this game, and every user has a unique subtype of playstyle combining various parts of those
17:03:31 <supermop> my brother only plays realistic games, but also only plays without newgrfs
17:04:11 <Wolf01> how does he play realistic without buffer stops?
17:04:43 <Samu> how do I start servers with the same seed?
17:06:21 <Samu> want to have the same map generated
17:07:08 <Wolf01> generate it with one server, save and load it on every server?
17:08:29 <Samu> but they have different AI configs
17:08:41 <Samu> can't do the save and load method
17:09:41 <Samu> -G seed = Set random seed
17:10:39 <Wolf01> did you try a different number?
17:10:42 <_dp_> set seed in config file?
17:11:40 <Samu> gonna try config file then
17:12:32 <Alberth> all settings in worldgen etc must be the same too
17:13:08 <supermop> Wolf01: same way that every power plant gets a beautiful glass roofed station for dropping off coal i guess
17:13:26 <Samu> getseed Generation Seed: 54832461
17:13:37 <Samu> nop, didn't work with openttd.cfg either
17:14:31 <Samu> it didn't care for the seed :(
17:14:53 <Samu> I believe they're all equal
17:14:56 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: wanna explain that to ST2? he thinks there is one REAL game style to play.
17:15:08 <Samu> gonna re-check to make sure
17:15:19 <supermop> ha, no i don't want to explain
17:15:24 <ST2> Eddi|zuHause: peace, I'm dumb sometimes ;)
17:15:44 <supermop> because i cannot for the life of me understand arguing about an open source game
17:16:09 <Samu> only thing that differs is generation seed
17:16:40 <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: not sure how that is an argument in your favor...
17:17:04 <supermop> unless someone starts prohibiting styles of play by patching out certain features from trunk, i have no issue with people leaving each other be to play however they wish
17:17:38 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: don't put andy in charge then :p
17:17:58 <supermop> i do wish there were more servers out there to play with Cdist on, because i enjoy playing with it
17:18:53 <Samu> tried "C:\Program Files\OpenTTD\openttd.exe" -D -G 1
17:18:58 <supermop> so i personally have less fun when i do play on a server, but i do not have the time to run servers with my preferred setting anyway
17:19:05 <Samu> getseed gives me completely random values
17:19:10 <supermop> so i take what i can get
17:19:26 <Samu> tried setting generation_seed in config
17:19:32 <Samu> then started with "C:\Program Files\OpenTTD\openttd.exe" -D
17:19:46 <Samu> it doesn't use the value in the config, getseed gives a random value
17:24:27 <Alberth> openttd -h should tell you, but I don't think "seed=" is correct
17:24:39 <Alberth> maybe a different value from 1 ?
17:24:46 <Alberth> it may be special in some way
17:26:20 <Alberth> also, try the same server first, that should at least work before trying a different one
17:26:27 <_dp_> remember there being an opposite problem, server always picking same seed... did it get fixed backwards?xD
17:27:09 <Alberth> no idea; I did have some trouble there too, but I don't remember the solution :(
17:27:25 <Alberth> hmm, is there a console command to set the seed?
17:27:25 <ST2> _dp_, I guess that happened when reload_cfg = true (if my memory dnt fails me ^^)
17:27:35 <Samu> getseed - console command
17:27:52 <_dp_> I know your solution, hardcoded it to random somewhere xD
17:28:14 <Samu> and there's setting blablaseed = 123412312
17:28:17 <Alberth> setting the seed of openttd.cfg?
17:29:22 <_dp_> *our.. why a I always typing it wrong...
17:31:34 <_dp_> especially touch typing... sometimes fingers just type smth on their own %)
17:31:47 <Samu> hmm, how do I test that?
17:32:57 <Samu> so hmm, i generate the map twice?
17:34:05 <peter1138> urgh, wsdl file that i can't open :S
17:35:01 <Samu> i think i found a way, not optimal, but... might work
17:37:28 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
17:39:45 <Samu> nop, lol, i'm so dumb sometimes
17:39:50 <_dp_> ha, I probably know why... tried learning another keyboard layout recently, almost broke my brain xD
17:39:57 <Samu> it was continuously starting a new game indefinitely
17:41:08 <_dp_> very weird feeling when you consciously type in one layout but subconsciously in other %)
17:44:32 <Alberth> build an AI detecting the keyboard mode of your brain :p
17:46:37 <Samu> I typed setting game_creation.generation_seed 1 into pre_server.scr
17:46:43 <_dp_> doing some mind-machine interface for typing would probably be easier xD
17:46:53 <Samu> launching openttd.exe -D now creates the same map
17:47:51 <Alberth> you could also consider making DWIM (do what I mean)
17:56:12 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
18:05:45 *** rahtgaz has joined #openttd
18:22:22 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
18:26:07 <Samu> hmm i think the map might be too small
18:27:59 *** JacobD88 has joined #openttd
18:33:53 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd
18:40:45 <Samu> yea, there isn't a sufficient distance to accomodate some of WormAIs parameters
18:41:34 <Samu> brb, gonna setup larger map
18:48:28 <Samu> cpu usage 100%, not a good sign :(
19:12:50 <Samu> Yesterday night, I worked on a fix for that savegame issue
19:14:25 <Samu> tried to make openttd behave as close as these instructions
19:15:57 <Samu> it repeats part of the code, because uh I don't know how to make it better
19:23:22 <Samu> "load the exact same version of the same script," - this was the part I focused most
19:29:35 <Samu> if it was saved with wormai.4 in the name, it will load wormai version 4, even if both version 4 and version 5 are installed the system
19:30:29 <Samu> if it was saved with wormai in the name, it will load wormai version 5
19:30:32 <Alberth> euhm, how do you ever fix a bug in an AI then?
19:32:09 <Samu> for as long as the AI is started without version appended to its name, it will load the latest compatible version
19:34:12 <Alberth> coding a version into the name to force some behavior sounds silly to me
19:34:41 <Alberth> imho there should not be magic words in a name
19:34:56 <Alberth> or magic digits, in your case
19:35:38 <Samu> i tried a game where i started wormai in 3 different ways
19:35:50 <Samu> start wormai.4, start wormai.5, start wormai
19:36:12 <Alberth> most people just select an ai, or let a random ai select
19:36:16 <Samu> i got wormai 4 loaded, then wormai 5 loaded, then wormai 5 loaded
19:38:05 <Samu> well, I don't really know, i tried to follow the behaviour from the documentation
19:38:30 <Samu> documentation isn't exactly clear as to what is intended or not
19:38:47 <Samu> but wormnest interpretation makes sense
19:39:13 <Alberth> normally, code wins over documentation
19:39:48 <glx> usually doc is not updated with code
19:39:49 <Alberth> the change history should tell you when both were created, and if there were reasons for changing either
19:41:15 <Samu> how do i check change history?
19:42:46 <Samu> yeah, seems to be this, last change was by rubidium
19:46:52 *** Progman has joined #openttd
20:15:46 <_dp_> what's the best way to pad number with spaces in gs strings? (aka align to the right)
20:16:59 <Alberth> print right-aligned string, I think
20:18:43 <_dp_> can't use arbitrary strings in gs, only ones defined in lang file
20:19:11 <_dp_> which is bad in many ways btw
20:20:28 <_dp_> best solution I can think of is to do like 10 strings with spaces and select right one each time
20:21:16 <_dp_> and ofc that takes 2 parameters per number :(
20:23:34 <Alberth> make numbers human readable, like 2k 5m ?
20:26:05 <_dp_> how do I make smth like 42 more "readable"?)
20:27:50 <_dp_> I don't need big numbers, just want ones in 1-10000 range to take same space
20:28:12 <Alberth> or "answer to the question of life, universe and everything"
20:29:02 <_dp_> oh crap, forget numbers, I just realized smth more important...
20:29:14 <_dp_> how do I show company name that isn't in game anymore?
20:29:27 <Samu> truebrain was the author of ai_scanner.cpp, i think
20:29:45 <Samu> first time that file appeared has truebrain as author
20:30:03 <Alberth> not possible _dp_, afaik
20:30:39 <Samu> there hasn't been that many changes regarding this function, but i'm still exploring
20:31:35 <Samu> it seems the function was to be used with tar files in mind
20:32:10 <Alberth> an AI in one .nut file isn't really feasible
20:32:35 <Samu> savegame support was added afterwards
20:32:47 <Samu> interesting, exploring the history of openttd :p
20:33:08 <Alberth> yep, contains a lot of information
20:34:19 <_dp_> Alberth, that's rly bad, I want to have a server that does'n restart immediately after someone reaches goal, but still have a scoreboard
20:35:19 <_dp_> can probably do that with smth like 10k lang strings (for every pair of letters), but that's horrible solution
20:35:24 <Alberth> you might be able to do something with the admin port
20:36:25 <_dp_> hm, can I change goals with admin port?
20:37:35 <Alberth> it would be part of being able to talk from admin port to gs and vice versa
20:38:08 *** Defaultti has joined #openttd
20:38:17 <Alberth> communication experiments were at least planned, but with what exactly, I don't know
20:38:41 <_dp_> nah, if gs can't do it no communication would help
20:39:07 <Alberth> admin port gets names of companies afaik
20:39:20 <_dp_> my only hope is that admin port can somehow use strings from openttd lang files, not only gs ones
20:39:31 <_dp_> problem is not to get name, it's to show it
20:40:22 <Alberth> admin port doesn't show anything in-game, except perhaps chat if you connect that
20:40:57 <Alberth> or stuff at a website :p
20:42:19 <_dp_> I'm actually patching server directly so don't need admin port for this
20:42:38 <_dp_> but still can't find way to bypass string formatting stuff
20:43:23 *** Rubidium has joined #openttd
20:43:23 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Rubidium
20:43:34 <_dp_> got an idea though, mb I can do smth with STR_JUST_RAW_STRING, need to check that
20:46:19 <_dp_> and smth like STR_ORANGE_STRING for coloring
20:46:28 <_dp_> cheesy as hell, but may work %)
20:50:21 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
21:10:48 <_dp_> nah, SCC_ENCODED forces all stings to be from gs tab :(
21:11:14 <_dp_> and str_validate filters out all control codes
21:11:35 <_dp_> so can only use arbitrary string if it has to formatting
21:11:36 <Samu> nevermind, savegame support came first, tar support came after
21:11:48 <Samu> i was looking at this in the wrong order
21:12:58 *** Myhorta has joined #openttd
21:19:45 <_dp_> ok, can use train group name, and put string there... that's something
21:20:08 <peter1138> did V ever come back? heh
21:21:37 <peter1138> although... this mouse cursor issue is bugging me :p
21:22:50 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
21:28:28 *** Wormnest_ has joined #openttd
21:34:52 *** NoShlomo has joined #openttd
21:36:13 <NoShlomo> Hello, is there any way to see how many times a vehicle completes its orders in a month?
21:37:00 <Alberth> except watch it for a month :)
21:37:54 <NoShlomo> that's a lot of watching hehe
21:38:04 <Alberth> why do you want to know?
21:38:59 <Alberth> if you know what it's making in one cycle, you can more or less guestimate number of cycles in a month
21:39:29 <NoShlomo> To know how many vehicles I need transporting raw materials to roughly transport it all a month
21:39:53 <Alberth> but I usually don't care about the number of cycles, I just buy enough trains to transport stuff :)
21:40:14 <NoShlomo> can factories have too many raw materials being delivered?
21:40:44 <NoShlomo> Time to forcefeed stuff
21:41:00 <Alberth> max is around number of accepting tiles * 255 * 8 or so
21:41:35 <Alberth> if you use newgrf industries like ECS, limit is much sooner
21:41:52 <Alberth> but that's because it has a programmed upper stockpile limit
21:42:48 <NoShlomo> I'm using firs but that's a lot
21:43:04 <frosch123> NoShlomo: in the orders window, there is a timetable button in the top right
21:43:11 <Alberth> nah, firs is quite doable :)
21:43:20 <frosch123> that will tell you how many days a trip took last time
21:44:51 <NoShlomo> ooooh frosch123 this is very handy
21:47:49 <NoShlomo> Another question (I think this is the last one :P), an industry is producing x tonnes and it says next to it I'm delivering 67% despite the fact that there's always a vehicle sitting there waiting for more goods to be loaded. Is the remaining goods not transported what on the wiki says the industry keeps to itself and won't give me?
21:48:37 <frosch123> yes, you need new and fast vehicles, and a statue to get more
21:48:50 <frosch123> "fast" may mean 200 km/h, which may not even exist
21:49:29 <frosch123> yes, a statue in the next town
21:49:45 <Alberth> something like that indeed
21:49:57 <NoShlomo> and getting deliveries done faster makes them give you more stuff as well?
21:50:18 <frosch123> the delivery does not need to be fast, just the engine needs to look fast :p
21:50:28 <Alberth> for all the spoilers, read the Game Mechanics wiki page :)
21:52:22 <NoShlomo> I see, thanks a lot frosch123 and Alberth
21:54:50 *** rahtgaz has joined #openttd
21:56:29 <Samu> one of the revisions broke something, then only after 500 or so
21:56:46 <Samu> it gets fixed, and the fix is exactly what it was before it was broken
21:59:05 <Samu> i wonder who broke it, let me get author
22:06:03 <Samu> heh... he broke, then he fix
22:07:08 <Samu> the first time it was implemented it was by...
22:10:18 <TrueBrain> lets all do some useless highlighting
22:10:57 <Samu> i thought you weren't in irc
22:16:11 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
22:48:58 <Samu> (svn r18944) -Change [FS#3232]: use the highest version of an AI that can load the AI data from a savegame instead of the exact same version
22:49:13 <Samu> how do i access FS#3232 thing?
23:02:03 *** kais58__ is now known as kais58|AFK
23:09:58 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
23:24:38 *** Hiddenfunstuff has quit IRC
23:25:09 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
23:26:32 *** Ethereal_Whisper has quit IRC
23:29:10 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
23:36:27 *** Quatroking has joined #openttd
23:47:54 *** Alyx_Moon has joined #openttd
23:48:06 <Samu> just finished counting how many times "AIInfo *AIScannerInfo::FindInfo(const char *nameParam, int versionParam, bool force_exact_match)" has been changed
23:48:41 *** Alyx_Moon has left #openttd
continue to next day ⏵
