IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-05-02
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00:04:57 <Samu> is it just me or is the bakewell lucket lb-8 model turning around a bit jumpy, misaligned?
00:06:19 <Samu> looks odd when it faces south direction
00:06:58 <Samu> the animation from SE to S or SW to S
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09:55:40 <V453000> mine mined enough yet?
09:59:55 <V453000> don't you have coding automated?
10:05:23 <andythenorth> that would be nice
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10:38:43 <Wolf01> meh, for just 1 part I might need to open the 42030's box :/
10:51:40 <Wolf01> and I need to build a 5x5 frame with horizontal holes in center, 6 of them :/
11:00:14 <V453000> special big assembling machine with holes for power poles at the center?
11:01:48 <Wolf01> yes, and maybe it will be possible to fit a flux capacitor somewhere
11:02:41 <Wolf01> so you can build stuff with the resources from the past in the future!
11:04:06 <Wolf01> or with the resources from the future in the past, which makes more sense
11:10:22 <Wolf01> the moment when you miss the magic piece...
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11:37:32 <Flygon> I do wish I could build bridges over stations, hahaha
11:38:24 <Wolf01> you are not the only one, my pokémon friend
11:39:32 <Flygon> I've had this name for so long I forget it's a Pokemon
11:40:20 <Wolf01> I still play with the games
11:40:48 <Flygon> Doing that 4k*4k Hokkaido map
11:51:28 <Leanden> Hmmm well thats an interesting bug
11:51:41 <Leanden> someone might be able to help me with this
11:51:52 <Leanden> I have coded a steam train with a tender
11:52:26 <Leanden> It works absolutely fine, however if i place 2 of the trains into a consist, the second loco has two heads and no tender.
11:52:28 <peter1138> hmm, moving the pointer is buggy for me
11:52:54 <Leanden> i suspect there is something in my code I can do to prevent this
11:53:37 <Leanden> anyone know much about NML Trains?
11:54:05 <Leanden> I havent noticed any cursor issues
11:54:11 <Leanden> but then im not really using 1.6.0 yet
11:54:15 <Leanden> switch (FEAT_TRAINS, SELF, switch_articulated_GNRA1, extra_callback_info1) { 1: return item_GNRA1; //use same vehicle for all parts return CB_RESULT_NO_MORE_ARTICULATED_PARTS; //stop adding vehicle parts }
11:54:52 <Leanden> Is there anything i can put in here so that it ignores the rest of the train and only looks at the loco itself for position in consist?
11:55:11 <andythenorth> peter1138: define ‘buggy’?
11:55:32 <peter1138> bits are not drawn properly. if i move it fast the whole thing disappears.
11:56:00 <andythenorth> hmm, different bugs to the ones I see :P
11:56:24 <andythenorth> I have variants of: system cursor shown; laggy ottd cursor; missing ottd cursor
11:56:37 <Leanden> Is it in both full screen and windowed mode peter?
11:56:38 <andythenorth> Leanden: you are switching graphics based on lead engine?
11:57:16 <Leanden> im using a position in consist switch
11:57:32 * andythenorth tries to remember if the cb was extended to allow looking only at the articulated consist
11:57:36 <andythenorth> it was discussed :P
11:58:07 <andythenorth> you can do it with offsets to the front part, but you have to piss about with some clunky reading of variables
11:58:15 <andythenorth> why not just use a different ID for tender? o_O
11:58:45 <peter1138> it's not doing it now
11:58:59 <peter1138> well, it is, but only once every couple of seconds instead of every frame
11:59:22 <Leanden> different ID for tender?
11:59:45 <Leanden> hold on let me get you a pastebin of the code so you can see where im at
11:59:53 <andythenorth> I can envisage it
12:01:36 <Leanden> well i believe im already using different IDs which is why you have me confused
12:01:48 <Leanden> the train itself works perfectly
12:02:03 <Leanden> but if i take two articulated trains in a double headed the train
12:02:11 <Leanden> the second tender is replaced by the head graphics
12:02:55 <Leanden> Ths sprites are selected by "position_in_consist"
12:03:44 <Leanden> but even if i extend these in multiples two in case of double headed trains, i still can't guarentee the positioning will always be correct, as if for example an extra wagon isnt added between the two locos
12:04:01 <andythenorth> afaict, that’s a locomotive with a single ID, and two parts
12:04:24 <andythenorth> there’s nothing wrong with this approach, but you could also do it with multiple IDs
12:04:32 <Leanden> if i seperate the tender in a seperate ID, won't you have to buy the tender seperately?
12:04:56 <andythenorth> no, not if it’s built as part of the articulated cb by another vehicle
12:05:19 <Leanden> hmmm, i havent found a switch in the NML documentation that adds another vehicle ID to the consist
12:05:23 <andythenorth> but if you want cargo subtype refits for liveries, the approach you’re using makes sense
12:05:43 <andythenorth> 1: return item_GNRA1 <- this is returning the ID
12:05:49 <andythenorth> you could return a different vehicle there
12:06:02 <andythenorth> you also set articulated consist trailing vehicles to climate none
12:06:18 <Leanden> but then if you want to refit the livery
12:06:24 <Leanden> you'd have to do the tender and loco seperately?
12:06:43 <andythenorth> no, the tender would have to read the subtype from the lead vehicle of the consist
12:06:50 <andythenorth> it comes to about the same either way
12:07:22 <Leanden> so how would i get the tender to read the loco subtype?
12:08:38 <Leanden> if i returned additional IDs in that way
12:08:51 <Leanden> i wouldnt need the position_in_consist switch at all would i?
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12:12:15 <andythenorth> but you’d use it to read the subtype in the front vehicle
12:12:48 <andythenorth> hmm, actually the trailing vehicles might pick up the subtype when they’re built or refitted, I can’t remember
12:13:13 * andythenorth hasn’t used subtypes for a long time
12:18:21 <Samu> i found a way to shut down my system while keeping company passwords of clients
12:19:27 <Leanden> i changed what i thought what fix the issue, but i now have 2 heads and 1 tender :P
12:19:33 <Leanden> with only a single loco lol
12:21:53 <Wolf01> hibernate is not shut down :)
12:22:25 <Leanden> but i pretty much exclusively use hibernate on my PC :D
12:22:57 <Wolf01> when it works and restores network, audio...
12:22:57 <Samu> it shuts down, everything was turned off
12:23:59 <Leanden> no shutting down explicitly refers to wiping all memory from your computer to a fresh state
12:24:00 <Samu> i even turned off my router
12:24:19 <Samu> today i turned both on, everything is back to yesterday
12:24:22 <Leanden> Hibernate takes a screenshot of the status of your RAM and stores it on the hard drive, and then recalls this image when you boot up
12:24:40 <Leanden> in a very basic explanation :)
12:25:02 <Samu> i wonder what would happen if i had received a different IP address though
12:25:04 <Leanden> Its like pausing your computer :P
12:28:05 <Leanden> It was quite easy to link the liveries together
12:28:20 <Leanden> I set the Tender ID as the articulated part of the main engine
12:29:00 <Leanden> gave it its own cargo_subtype switch
12:29:16 <Leanden> but placed the cargo_subtype_text switch into the main engine ID
12:29:30 <Leanden> and lo and behold the refit affects both vehicle_IDs
12:29:41 <Leanden> (but not the whole consist) :D
12:29:56 <andythenorth> trailing parts of an articulated consist take some properties from the lead articulated vehicle
12:30:54 <Leanden> well im glad i have that cracked
12:33:44 <Samu> NoCAB just sold all trains, he's in the process of upgrading tracks, interesting
12:33:59 <Samu> this is where he usually crashes, let's see what happens
12:36:00 <Leanden> andythenorth: are you still with us? i want some quick advice on pnml
12:36:43 <Leanden> im going to split my NML file down into seperate pnml
12:36:58 <Leanden> but i have two ideas and wondering which is more standard/accepted
12:37:19 <Leanden> put each train in a seperate pnml, including all its switchs
12:37:53 <Leanden> or split each code block type, livery_switch, articulated_switch, sprite_set etc. into a seperate pnml
12:38:16 <planetmaker> a separate file for each switch etc? That's madness
12:38:44 <planetmaker> The idea to split code in different files is to allow *easier* finding of the interesting part or buggy part of whatever
12:38:47 <andythenorth> splitting the switches is ok, if you have a reason
12:38:49 <Leanden> no each type of switch
12:39:02 <Leanden> so all the articulated switches in a single pnml file
12:39:10 <Leanden> all the livery switches in another
12:39:25 <andythenorth> Leanden: have you seen how the templating works in pnml?
12:40:46 <Samu> NoCAB upgraded all tracks, but only got 3 trains out, he had 23 trains before :( hmm he's really slow
12:40:56 <Leanden> hmmm sprite templating or something else? :P
12:41:17 <andythenorth> basically, until you understand the templating, you’re not gaining anything from pnml or similar
12:41:24 <andythenorth> you’d just be moving code around to different files
12:41:32 <andythenorth> in which case, one file per vehicle is best
12:41:34 <planetmaker> ah. Well. That might be a matter of personal taste, Leanden. Using an appropriate sprite template with the right parameter (e.g. a filename) might actually make all your switches for all the vehicles the same - except the filename parameter given
12:41:49 * andythenorth wonders if there is a good example set to look at
12:42:48 <planetmaker> Anyhow, not everything refers to sprites, and then NML templating won't help much
12:43:19 <andythenorth> wow, that was a bad approach
12:43:19 <planetmaker> And then the grouping by function (e.g. all refit switches) or grouping by vehicle (everything related to one) is more a matter of personal preference
12:43:32 <Leanden> i use sprite templates already
12:44:00 <Leanden> saves me rewriting all the offsets, widths, etc. etc.
12:44:27 <Leanden> well ive seen how SBB breaks down their pnml
12:44:36 <Leanden> but it just seems spread out for the sake of spreading out
12:45:53 <Leanden> my understanding is that with reference to each vehicle, as long as the switches come before the item before the graphics, and you dont reference an ID that hasn't yet been reached in the code, then it doesnt matter about the order
12:46:23 <Leanden> so you could go: Train 1 Switch, Train 1 Item, Train 1 Graphics, Train 2 Switch, Train 2 Item, Train 2 Graphics, etc. etc.
12:47:18 <andythenorth> if I were in your place, I’d just do it like HEQS for now
12:47:31 <andythenorth> one file per vehicle, don’t bother templating the switches etc
12:47:39 <andythenorth> write all the nml out longhand
12:48:12 <andythenorth> (1) if you’ve never used a code templating system before, the C macro system is not a very pleasant place to start
12:48:15 <Leanden> oh i get what you mean by tempalting now
12:48:28 <andythenorth> (2) learning all this slows you down and makes it harder to make initial progress
12:48:28 <Leanden> ye i dont like templating code as a rule
12:48:43 <Leanden> id much prefer to write all my code out in full
12:48:47 <andythenorth> (3) you don’t know what templates you need until you have coded a range of common cases
12:50:40 <andythenorth> I would not work without templates personally, but I have learnt from writing nml and nfo out longhand
12:51:12 <andythenorth> there’s one and only one
12:52:13 <Leanden> yeah i dont like that
12:52:27 <Leanden> to me it gives you less visibility on exactly what is going on
12:52:46 <andythenorth> you have to hold two languages in your head at once
12:53:18 <andythenorth> ok, well just split all your vehicles to individual files
12:53:26 <andythenorth> and use includes to turn them on and off
12:53:37 <andythenorth> it can be very useful for debugging, or when you want to compile fast
12:53:57 <Leanden> i assume that the order you include them is the order they will appear in the purchase list?
12:54:13 <andythenorth> nah, default order is by ID
12:54:20 <andythenorth> ah, you’re allowing nml to manage IDs?
12:54:40 <Leanden> thats what the tutorial recommended
12:54:40 <andythenorth> ok, that means if you change the order of includes, you break savegames
12:55:01 <Leanden> ooo thats interesting to know
12:55:06 <andythenorth> so you (1) can’t change the order unless you bump savegame (2) can’t turn includes on and off for debugging
12:55:26 <Leanden> so i should be adding my own IDs then?
12:55:26 <andythenorth> you can manage IDs explicitly, which C macro templating is quite good at
12:55:38 <andythenorth> you could centralise them into one file
12:55:39 <Leanden> is it just number IDs?
12:56:11 <Leanden> well breaking down into pnml now is going to break savegame compatibility anyway once i add the IDs
12:56:18 <andythenorth> item(FEAT_TRAINS, kessler, 1990) {
12:56:37 <Leanden> well i have an idea for that
12:56:42 <Leanden> whats the highest number an ID can take?
12:57:31 <andythenorth> around 16000 is the limit if you want to use it as trailing part of articulated vehicle
12:57:41 <andythenorth> you have ‘enough’ though
12:57:51 <Leanden> im not worried about how many
12:57:55 <Leanden> i mean the explicity number itself
12:58:06 <Leanden> could i have 999999 for example
12:58:12 <Leanden> even if the total number of IDs is less than 16000?
12:58:53 <andythenorth> check the spec :)
12:59:00 <andythenorth> newgrf wiki knows
12:59:22 <andythenorth> but max ID number for articulated trailing parts is around 16000
13:00:00 <andythenorth> but I found that was only helpful for nfo; for nml, better to put the ID directly into the vehicle file
13:02:54 <Leanden> i have an idea for a system on how to define the numerical ID
13:03:03 <Leanden> but i want to see if NML will actually accept it first :P
13:04:37 <andythenorth> I wouldn’t bother
13:04:52 <Leanden> xx being a company identifier
13:04:53 <andythenorth> has to be a number, int
13:04:58 <Leanden> yy being the year of production
13:05:04 <andythenorth> it’s converted to a hexadecimal value
13:05:04 <Leanden> and zz being an incremental number for that year
13:05:12 <Leanden> so for example 016901
13:05:31 <andythenorth> just start at one and work up
13:06:08 <Leanden> unfortunately its not, because of the scope of the set, i can't predict when im going to add trains earlier in the list otherwise the production list will look ridiculous
13:06:13 <andythenorth> you end up chasing your tail with fancy ID systems
13:06:26 <andythenorth> you can control buy menu separately
13:06:34 <andythenorth> literally one big nml block
13:06:52 <Leanden> oh well balls to it then, i dont need to even change the order of #include in that case :p
13:07:04 <andythenorth> sort(FEAT_TRAINS, [1990, 2060, 2040, 2070, 2050, 2080, 2000, 2010, 1840, 1970, 1800, 1960, 1620, 2030, 1870, 2020, 1980, 1790, 1610, 1590, 1600, 1550, 1540, 1580, 1560, 1730, 1760, 1770, 1750, 1740, 1630, 1660, 1670, 1680, 1720, 1690, 1700, 1570, 1640, 1650, 1780, 2130, 1940, 2120, 1950, 2090, 1830, 1820, 2100, 1850, 1860, 1890, 1910, 1920, 2150, 1900, 2140, 2110, 1930, 1880, 90, 20, 340, 150, 310, 40, 370, 510, 180,
13:07:04 <andythenorth> 80, 410, 440, 250, 350, 60, 1460, 1440, 260, 320, 50, 540, 200, 400, 10, 30, 330, 1470, 1480, 1490, 780, 790, 800, 960, 970, 980, 860, 1330, 590, 600, 610, 1100, 1110, 660, 670, 680, 1250, 1260, 1040, 1430, 1210, 1220, 1390, 1400, 1180, 1510, 1300, 810, 1350, 1370, 990, 1380, 1450, 870, 1320, 620, 1310, 1120, 1130, 690, 1360, 1050, 1520, 1410, 1420, 520, 1500, 110, 480, 380, 70, 230, 0, 390, 500, 300, 270, 170, 120, 4
13:07:04 <Leanden> but i suppose i should still use IDs in case i need to remove any
13:07:05 <andythenorth> 280, 220, 450, 100, 160, 130, 470, 530, 460, 360, 210, 290, 490, 240, 140, 430, 880, 740, 750, 760, 920, 930, 940, 1000, 820, 830, 840, 550, 560, 570, 1070, 1080, 1090, 630, 640, 1270, 1230, 1240, 1010, 1020, 1190, 1200, 730, 720, 1060, 1140, 1150, 1160, 890, 900, 910, 710, 700, 1530, 1280, 770, 950, 850, 580, 650, 1030, 1170, 1290]);
13:07:12 <andythenorth> buy menu for Iron Horse :P
13:07:16 <andythenorth> should have pastebinned that :P
13:07:35 <andythenorth> do your IDs starting at 1
13:07:46 <andythenorth> and do your includes in alphabetical order, imho
13:07:52 <andythenorth> and do the buy menu order manually
13:11:27 <Leanden> thanks for your help andy
13:11:39 <Leanden> I should probably credit you as a coder after all your help :P
13:12:37 <andythenorth> Leanden: test your refit code early with things like autoreplace and station refit
13:12:51 <andythenorth> I had a lot of trouble trying to abuse refit, and I don’t bother anymore
13:12:58 <Leanden> ive disabled station refit on the locomotives
13:13:14 <Leanden> as it doesnt make sense to me that a loco should be able to change at a station
13:22:56 <Leanden> im having a different issue but i cant look into it right now
13:23:08 <Leanden> my makefile was set up to produce from an nml file
13:23:22 <Leanden> how do i modify it now to use pnml instead? :P
13:24:28 <andythenorth> makefile has evolved over time
13:24:40 <andythenorth> HEQS one is very old, but uses “MAIN_SRC_FILE ?= $(BASE_FILENAME).pnml”
13:24:52 <andythenorth> # uncomment MAIN_SRC_FILE if you do not want any preprocessing to happen to your source file
13:27:35 <Leanden> it isnt looking for the pnml
13:27:44 <andythenorth> planetmaker is your best bet for makefile help, but he might be busy :)
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14:31:23 <Wolf01> andythenorth, do you have some info about making a contained joystick for the pf controllers? I need to put 3 of them really close, and the one I found doesn't work well
14:32:32 <andythenorth> there are designs around though?
14:32:51 <Wolf01> yeah, but they are big or wobbly
14:55:32 <planetmaker> <Leanden> id much prefer to write all my code out in full <-- then just do that
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16:02:38 <argoneus> good morning train friends
16:11:08 <Eddi|zuHause> does it ever MOOO?
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17:17:03 <supermop> rail types are newgrf bullshit huh
17:18:24 <V453000> like you cant have it in base set
17:20:13 <Alberth> nobody forces you to use them :)
17:32:03 <supermop> no thats a quote from forum
17:32:54 <supermop> "No one is forcing you to use the new track types. So many great and doable ideas have been smothered by the "there's a NewGRF for it bulls***"! Seriously! how long do you want this game to be unchanged for?"
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17:36:28 <Alberth> ah :) well, that's easy, "forever" :)
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17:47:35 <Alberth> the author seems a bit confused about how openttd gets extended
17:57:00 <FLHerne> Well, I do sympathise a bit. There are a lot of useful non-newgrfable patches that have been floating around for years.
17:57:26 <FLHerne> But for the kind of features he's on about...nah, clueless
18:05:59 <_dp_> imo worst thing about newgrfs is that they're way too often used as an excuse for not adding anything to the base game
18:07:22 <_dp_> even for stuff that being done with newgrfs is ugly as hell and completely impractical
18:07:44 <FLHerne> Small, clean patches that add uncontroversial features, that can be easily applied to current trunk
18:08:12 <FLHerne> Not being an OTTD dev, it's hard to see why these need to be left alone for years
18:08:50 <FLHerne> I know Eddi's can crash vehicles immediately on loading a new savegame, but those vehicles were *already* doomed by the current LC behaviour
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18:19:04 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not that, it's vehicles that were previously perfectly safe also just run into a train in front of them
18:19:53 <Eddi|zuHause> which is "only" a problem for old savegames, but one that should not just be ignored
18:24:00 <_dp_> make "invincible" flag for vehicles?
18:28:09 <Eddi|zuHause> well, one option would be to make two different closed states for crossings
18:28:20 <_dp_> or, mb, flag for using old signal behaviour
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18:29:25 <Eddi|zuHause> a "closed" flag for the entire crossing, and an "unsafe" flag for the crossing where actually a train is on
18:30:04 <Eddi|zuHause> a "closed" tile will allow a vehicle to enter if coming from another "closed" tile
18:30:18 <Eddi|zuHause> and an "unsafe" flag will not allow a vehicle to enter regardless
18:30:51 <Eddi|zuHause> where "unsafe" is the old behaviour, and "closed" the new one introduced by that patch
18:30:55 <_dp_> oh, I know the simplest solution, add game setting for using adjacent crossings
18:31:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm very against that
18:32:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with the "unsafe" approach is that it will break again when a long tram suddenly stops in the middle of the track
18:32:55 <Eddi|zuHause> or with the follow-up patch of "diagonal crossings"
18:36:14 <_dp_> anyway, you need to combine both mechanics
18:37:06 <_dp_> so, what about per-vehicle flag then? set it for some rv in old saves, and reset at some point (rv leaving signal block)
18:38:31 <_dp_> hm, what if more crossings are added while vehicle already entered block?
18:40:36 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a user error and of no concern
18:40:56 <Eddi|zuHause> like modifying signals with trains nearby, if a train crashes, it's the player's fault
18:41:03 <Eddi|zuHause> not the game's responsibility to fix
18:45:12 <_dp_> I misinterpreted this patch at first, it's not like it competely prevents crashing, just adds a way to do save crossings
18:47:39 <_dp_> or, rather, slightly more safe
18:47:54 <_dp_> if rv breaks down on rail it's doomed anyway
18:49:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't help with that :p
18:50:26 <_dp_> well, technically, you can stop train but...
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18:50:46 <Eddi|zuHause> that's getting a bit complicated
18:51:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and stops it from being a "small, clean patch"
18:51:26 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not actually unrealistic
18:51:48 <Eddi|zuHause> some level crossings have a signal whether the crossing safely closed
18:52:06 <Eddi|zuHause> and if that is not on, the train must stop before the crossing, and manually check it's safe
18:53:16 <_dp_> but trains braking is unrealistic in openttd :p
18:57:46 <_dp_> better not, that would break everything
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19:11:09 <FLHerne_> Eddi|zuHause: Sorry, was afk
19:11:18 <FLHerne_> <Eddi|zuHause> it's not that, it's vehicles that were previously perfectly safe also just run into a train in front of them
19:11:39 <FLHerne_> That was what I meant by "those vehicles were *already* doomed by the current LC behaviour"
19:12:06 <Eddi|zuHause> how are they "doomed"?
19:12:10 <FLHerne_> With the current setup, any vehicle crossing a double-track line is going to be destroyed eventually
19:12:27 <Eddi|zuHause> any 8/8 vehicle parked between two rails is safe
19:12:51 <Eddi|zuHause> only longer vehicles, or a second vehicle is "doomed"
19:12:55 <FLHerne_> RVs have a tendency to clump, though
19:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause> but that's not relevant.
19:13:48 <FLHerne_> Okay, the majority of vehicles crossing a double-track line are doomed, unless the operator was really careful to timetable things
19:15:10 <FLHerne_> I still think a few lost vehicles, many of which were going to be squashed anyway at some point, isn't worth the years of lost vehicles that we get :P
19:15:29 <Eddi|zuHause> again. that's irrelevant to the problem. SOME vehicles that were SAFE in the original safegame are DOOMED, when loaded with this patch
19:15:38 <Eddi|zuHause> which is a regression
19:15:47 <Eddi|zuHause> and thus not allowed to happen with a "clean" patch
19:15:54 <Eddi|zuHause> hence the patch is not "clean"
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19:47:52 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: just automatically crash all player vehicles on load regardless of if they are near a crossing
19:57:46 <supermop> improved breakdowns: train explodes for no reason
19:59:51 <V453000> also blows up tracks under it?
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20:07:23 <supermop> some times the train blows up, sometimes the tracks
20:08:07 <supermop> sometime train derails and drives into an industry and blows up your high-production steel mill
20:09:11 <Samu> i swithed to another ISP, servers aren't being recognized by the master server
20:09:24 <Samu> t.t port forwarding is hard
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20:53:55 <frosch123> just to add: i looked at the locale setting in the user's profile. i am not completely retarded :)
20:56:54 <Wolf01> so you'll look like a wizard to him
20:58:11 <Wolf01> maybe he really wanted to translate the placeholder language
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21:10:56 <Wolf01> could I apply for translating in qps-ploc?
21:13:13 <Wolf01> it's a language used by Microsoft to test the UI
21:26:39 <andythenorth> iz new gamescript yet? o_O
21:26:43 * andythenorth wants to play a game
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22:01:39 <andythenorth> oops, forgot to re-apply my tropic landscape patch
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