IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-04-28
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00:26:45 <Samu> this enumeration thing is too hard
00:26:50 <Samu> i don't know what I need
00:27:00 <Samu> what needs to be enumerated
00:27:37 <Samu> it looks easy at first, but the more i dwelve into it, the less i know
00:31:25 <Samu> hmm :( im doing this wrong, sec, let me edit
00:32:53 <Samu> alive scripts are not allowed to edit all parameters
00:34:47 <_dp_> half of your ScriptSlotFlags don't even depend on slot
00:42:16 <Samu> please explain me what I'm doing wrong
00:43:27 <Samu> i picked those 6 bool checks which are the most commonly used
00:44:01 <Samu> there's a few others like IsEditable, Slot Movable, but they don't depend on a flag of teir own
00:44:08 <_dp_> I don't know what are you trying to do here with those flags, but having in slot flags smth that has nothing to do with slots is clearly wrong
00:44:41 <_dp_> there is _game_mode for checking game mode, why on earth would you put it to every slot flags
00:45:13 <Samu> I ask for that test many times in the bools
00:45:35 <Samu> it's basically in everyone of them
00:45:55 <Samu> i don't really understand what to do
00:46:22 <Samu> have you seen my code with the bools? i was told it was ugly, they were giant lines
00:46:37 <Samu> i thought enums and flags would help make it more readable, or simple
00:47:53 <Samu> how do i make them readable
00:47:53 <_dp_> so? doing hasflag(flags, SST_GAMEMODE) instead of _game_mode == GM_NORMAL just obscures logic, nothing else
00:51:34 <_dp_> I'd say doing 2-3 functions would help significantly
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01:19:50 <Samu> i have no more time today
01:19:58 <Samu> tomorrow i'll look into this again
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01:26:16 <drac_boy> anyone here rather know what a lima shay is locomotives-wise? :)
01:27:14 <Supercheese> geared locomotive
01:27:33 <Supercheese> good for steep gradients/heavy loads
01:28:14 <Supercheese> way back when they used some on logging railroads around where I live
01:30:36 <drac_boy> not sure how they got the diesel's power to the side shaft .. but under the cab you can see what looks like a different-colored gearbox doing that task apparently
01:30:52 <Supercheese> yeah they pulled the expansion cylinders it looks like
01:31:27 <drac_boy> I never thought someone would actually turn a shay chassis into a diesel locomotive but .. there it is 0_0
01:31:52 <Supercheese> and it probably has bestial tractive effort
01:32:03 <Supercheese> although they did lose the tender it seems
01:32:10 <drac_boy> and from the look of the logs just poking into the photo .. its probably working a log line with equally-alike 10-20kph top speed restriction :)
01:34:42 <drac_boy> supercheese also not many of them were photographed but much more numerous were the 0-4-0 and 0-6-0 being turned into mechanical gas or diesel locomotives
01:35:17 <drac_boy> looks like the steps are probably still original :)
01:36:07 <drac_boy> some 0-4-0's (I never quite get it) had a lot of overhangs so they could look a little comical .. so the large space between rear axle and rear buffer beam doesn't surprise me there
01:37:07 <drac_boy> looks like even the firebox may be all the way behind the driver instead of sitting over it even
01:41:10 <Supercheese> as long as the center of gravity is nicely over the axles
01:41:32 <Supercheese> and their cantilevers aren't too problematic
01:42:48 <Supercheese> but steam engines tend to use beefy materials so I doubt they have to worry about excessive bending moments or anything, they can handle it
01:43:08 <drac_boy> well I think it also helps having saddletank which puts a bit more balance over the front :)
01:44:27 <drac_boy> semi-related footnote: the first 'simple' articulated locomotive had a short flue that basically the front drivers were a bit "loose" which explains why they were restricted to low speed or helper services where the instability wasn't going to be as pronounced
01:45:38 <drac_boy> the second design (forgot which railroad but may had been Sealine) corrected this by extending the flues moving the gravity point further forward
01:46:20 <drac_boy> kinda hard to explain it but heh I guess if you have an articulated locomotive with little weight over the front its probably no surprise if it "shakes" a lot
01:54:41 <drac_boy> supercheese but anyway this aside, how're you doing?
01:56:34 <Supercheese> got a cup of hot coffee, so everything's good
02:01:55 <drac_boy> bit lazy night for me atm anyhow
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03:45:42 <Flygon> If I may ask a dumb question
03:45:57 <Flygon> Is there any chance of vehicle tables being upped from 65k max vehicles per game?
03:46:31 <Flygon> Or is the way the game's currently coded too unfriendly to bump from a 16-bit table to a 32-bit table?
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05:40:26 <Eddi|zuHause> which "vehicle table" are you talking about?
05:46:14 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Commit by rubidium :: r20574 /trunk/src (6 files in 3 dirs) (2010-08-19 22:58:30 +0200 )
05:46:15 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: -Codechange: a little over 1 million vehicles should be enough for the forseeable future
05:46:22 <Eddi|zuHause> that was almost 6 years ago
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08:09:01 <Alberth> so, more industry newgrfs :)
08:09:35 <Alberth> no wonder it didn't make sense
08:18:55 <andythenorth> I’m wondering if there is some way to whackamole them
08:19:04 <andythenorth> maybe bananas could detect all industry newgrfs?
08:24:03 <Alberth> what about counting number of industries that I mentioned before? Is that feasible?
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08:25:13 <Alberth> if all industry grfs would assume they're the only one active, you could code it in openttd, but ECS already breaks that
08:26:50 <Alberth> also, it seems a bad idea to block the path of 2 grfs working together
08:27:21 <andythenorth> I think it’s a social problem :|
08:28:03 <Alberth> I don't understand what exactly breaks it
08:28:20 <Alberth> it would be so nice if you could just have it added
08:29:02 <Alberth> modulo max number of cargos and max number of industries
08:31:23 <andythenorth> I assume that the oil rig grf re-adds the oil rig as a new industry, or redefines the FIRS version
08:31:33 <andythenorth> I haven’t decompiled it :)
08:32:05 <andythenorth> fundamentally, the problem is shared address space :P
08:32:53 <andythenorth> so how would the industry counting work? o_O
08:34:57 <Alberth> Not sure, but I would hope you can get the total number of defined industries. If it deviates from what you expect, disable yourself
08:35:53 <Alberth> or you can iterate through the industry ids, to see if something weird exists, but that sounds a lot more complicated in newgrf
08:37:53 <andythenorth> the checks at grf loading time are quite limited :)
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08:43:01 <Alberth> what's this conflict problem about exactly, what breaks if I make a new powerplant industry, and a new food processing plant industry in another newgrf, and load both?
08:44:07 <Alberth> or if I would make a 3rd powerplant industry newgrf, and load that too?
08:46:16 <Alberth> why are the interesting industries to connect to, always hidden behind a hill :p
08:48:03 <andythenorth> devil is in the details
08:50:14 <andythenorth> I’m not sure how isolated industry IDs are now
08:50:20 <andythenorth> it’s non-obvious
08:50:31 <andythenorth> of the several ways things break, cargos are the most obvious
08:50:58 <andythenorth> the oil rig grf _probably_ just relies on oil being in slot 3
08:51:05 <andythenorth> and FIRS puts bauxite cargo in slot 3
08:51:27 <Alberth> cargos seem fixable to me by adding an extra translation table
08:51:46 <andythenorth> not whilst newgrf authors continue to partially redefine default industries
08:51:47 <Alberth> or better drop the slots crap, and use a 32bit identifier
08:52:10 <andythenorth> currently you can redefine the oil rig without your action 0 touching cargos
08:52:28 <andythenorth> there is hard to suppress legacy stuff
08:53:08 <Alberth> I was thinking to make the default set available to each industry newgrf separately
08:53:20 <Alberth> so firs gets a copy, oilrig gets a copy
08:53:21 <andythenorth> some kind of adapter?
08:53:28 <andythenorth> dunno how that interacts with vehicles and so on
08:53:51 <Alberth> then you hack industries like you want, and oilrig hacks it they want, and then you merge
08:54:15 <Alberth> vehicles only care about cargo, right?
08:58:07 <andythenorth> how many nappies changed?
08:58:59 <V453000> literal shitstorm tonight
08:59:42 <V453000> also started a process of making yeti beautiful
09:00:38 <V453000> cat found, more retarded FIRS cargoes invented?
09:05:24 <andythenorth> which of many colours is poo?
09:05:30 <andythenorth> green, yellow, black?
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13:06:28 <argoneus> good morning train friends
13:32:45 <Wolf01> I needed a video tutorial to understand how to turn on the torchlight of my powerbank... there's only one button
13:33:27 <Wolf01> at least I figured out alone how to turn it off again
14:09:29 <peter1138> these things bug me as there is no physical power switch
14:10:02 <peter1138> and they are able to get into a funny state where effectively they've crashed...
14:10:44 <peter1138> yeah they're not quite a straight forward as a plug, socket and a set of batteries.
14:11:08 <peter1138> friend of mine had to rip his apart to reset it
14:12:24 <Wolf01> this one uses AI-power to decide if the connected devices need fast charge or not, it might go full retard one day
14:17:35 <Wolf01> and now more important questions: I have a remote outpost which serves as a raw stone processing hub (stone->bricks->walls), I can't decide if it should process also the walls to gates, concrete, furnaces, and the stone to rails (all these need some more resources I would bring there by train)
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14:45:08 <Wolf01> V453000, maybe I'm stupid, but in the forum somebody said that you can copy the train wagons with the reserved slots, I can't make it work, do you know how to do it?
14:45:37 <V453000> yeah just shift right click, shift left click
14:45:48 <V453000> same as recipe/smartserter orders copying
14:46:21 <Wolf01> I was doing it wrong for my entire life XD
14:46:46 <Wolf01> over 9000 clicks saved \o/
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14:47:07 <V453000> you can also do it with train station names and train orders btw
14:47:13 <V453000> train orders dont get shared but yeah
14:47:29 <Wolf01> this is a really nice hidden feature
14:48:39 <Alberth> best features are always hidden :)
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15:28:16 <supermop> came into work 30 minutes early for a skype call with a manufacturer and consultant in Taiwan,
15:28:44 <supermop> but my boss arrived 30 minutes late to the call, and the manufacturer never called in at all
15:29:12 <supermop> times like this i think would be good to be an hourly paid consultant
15:29:53 <Alberth> you can go home 30 minutes earlier too, right?
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15:35:19 <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of stupid workplace do you have?
15:35:26 <supermop> last night i was here 2 hours late to prepare for the meeting
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15:35:40 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: a design firm
15:35:47 <supermop> or, an american workplace
15:35:59 <Eddi|zuHause> in civilized countries you have "Gleitzeit" [sliding time], so you have to show up for 8 hours per day, but can slide it earlier or later as needed
15:36:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and of course paid overtime
15:36:43 <supermop> but if there is more than 8 hours of work to be done you are there for more
15:37:09 <Eddi|zuHause> or balanced overtime
15:37:23 <Eddi|zuHause> (overtime one day is deducted from another day)
15:37:24 <supermop> no architecture firm pays overtime here, especially to salaried employees
15:37:53 <supermop> technically i can work my 40 hours a week any time anywhere in the week
15:38:22 <supermop> but if i am constantly working 48 or 60 hours thts on me
15:38:34 <Eddi|zuHause> also, 35-hour-weeks
15:39:31 <supermop> in architecture firms there is still a culture of you are sacrificing for your art, so if you arent spending lots of your free time working you must not be very serious about it
15:40:08 <supermop> and bosses of architecture firms are happy to perpetuate that culture
15:40:35 <supermop> though it is better now than 5 years ago as there is a slight shortage of talent now
15:40:49 <supermop> as people leave to work in better paying industries
15:40:50 <Eddi|zuHause> that may be useful for "get your foot in the door" kind of work, but you should balance that after a while
15:41:34 <supermop> for example starting junior architecture salaries are now 150% of what they were before the recession
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15:44:01 <supermop> also one's boss may say, " i didnt tell you to stay until 8:30, r to come in on sunday"
15:45:55 <Eddi|zuHause> weird country...
15:51:51 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause not very familiar with the last 30 years of american history and the erosion of american worker's protections I assume
15:57:16 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: still a big difference between having a vague prejudice about how bad it is vs. actually hearing an example
15:57:57 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: i have it very very good compared to many americans, and especially those in other fields
15:58:47 <Eddi|zuHause> let's not start talking about paid vacation, then :p
15:59:15 <supermop> although it is illegal, until very recently, it was ubiquitous in design industries for 'interns' to receive no payment, even if their internship was not part of some training or university course
16:00:09 <supermop> often the interns were people qualified to work as juniors, who find the only jobs open to them are unpaid internships
16:01:06 <supermop> i am also lucky in that i actually like the work i am doing at this firm, and find my self planning out more work in my head while at home or in bed
16:01:11 <Eddi|zuHause> well, we had such problems as well over here, but then we introduced stricter rules for internships
16:01:47 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: the worst part is these rules existed for some 50+ years here,
16:01:57 <Eddi|zuHause> ... but then as well we passed a minimum wage law that excludes internships
16:03:20 <supermop> but employers kept encroaching on them until a few big lawsuits a few years ago removed any grey area and clarified that this activity is illegal and can be punished
16:04:15 <supermop> for years the same forces that pressed young people to work for free if they are passionate about the work, kept them from suing their employers
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16:57:04 <Leanden> This is going to sound a little ridiculous
16:57:20 <Leanden> but how do i upload my NML to the dev repository?
17:00:11 <Leanden> Is it tortoisehg i need?
17:02:18 <Alberth> hg push, mostly, or some "push" button on tortoisehg (tortoisehg is a graphical frontend for hg (=mercurial)
17:03:21 <Alberth> did you already clone the repository, and added all sources?
17:03:51 <Alberth> Wolf01: not musa, that's upload to bananas
17:07:12 <Leanden> i have the dev page set up
17:07:25 <Leanden> and i have a folder on my desktop
17:07:38 <Leanden> i want the folder on my desktop in the repository :D
17:09:29 <Leanden> lol you wouldnt believe how long i was looking for that page :D
17:10:07 <Alberth> basically, you must pull the currently empty repository from devzone first
17:10:22 <Alberth> that makes a copy of the repository at your system
17:10:41 <Alberth> then you "add" the source files
17:11:20 <Alberth> the latter makes a new revision, a new state of all files in the repository
17:11:34 <Alberth> all this is done locally
17:12:08 <Alberth> you can make changes, or add files or remove files, and then commit again
17:12:18 <Alberth> each time making a new revision
17:12:39 <Alberth> when done locally, you "push" your version back to the devzone
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19:45:44 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27551 trunk/src/lang/ukrainian.txt (2016-04-28 19:45:35 +0200 )
19:45:46 <DorpsGek> ukrainian: 3 changes by odisseus
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19:56:59 <andythenorth> like, positively “and stuff"
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20:06:00 <Alberth> wouldn't it be more fun to surprise the world? :)
20:08:01 <andythenorth> just wondering :)
20:08:28 <andythenorth> forums have started to turn into some kind of product support channel, instead of a fun place to have ideas
20:08:55 <Alberth> most active people have disappeared
20:10:20 <Alberth> grown up, doing real-life stuff, I guess
20:10:29 <andythenorth> is that an oxymoron of ‘active’? :D
20:10:56 <Alberth> in openttd terms, it is :p
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20:13:31 * andythenorth ponders ‘encouraging’ people
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20:14:16 <andythenorth> separation of concerns?
20:14:34 <Alberth> scenario description of terkhen
20:14:47 <Alberth> save seems to be doing something :p
20:15:42 <andythenorth> unrelated, need to look in src a bit
20:15:54 <Alberth> lots of bits there :)
20:16:29 <peter1138> i have a patch for that
20:17:00 <Rubidium> Alberth: looks like a small map ;)
20:17:25 * andythenorth looking if 2 tile locks are possible
20:18:09 <peter1138> the point of 3 tile locks is that 1 is too steep
20:18:25 <peter1138> so that makes little sense
20:18:30 <peter1138> i had a patch for locks...
20:18:58 <andythenorth> afaict, the slope is only on the central tile
20:19:10 <andythenorth> I am watching game, rather than reading movement code mind you
20:19:43 <andythenorth> locks suck full stop
20:19:47 <Alberth> hmm, no .png sections in it :p
20:19:53 <andythenorth> canals should just be buildable down slopes, with autolock
20:20:01 <andythenorth> locks are yak shaving
20:20:29 <andythenorth> not like bridges or tunnels where placement is significant
20:20:38 <Alkel_U3> IIRC it was like that in TTDPatch
20:22:13 <Alberth> just make lock graphics on a slope? :)
20:22:48 * andythenorth brute force hacking
20:26:18 <Alkel_U3> um, maybe I misunderstood what you meant. TTDP just allowed you to place the canal lock and canal with the same button
20:26:40 <andythenorth> so no need to change tool?
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20:27:22 <Alkel_U3> there is only the canal tool, no separate lock tool
20:29:27 <andythenorth> single tile locks work
20:29:31 <andythenorth> movement code is fine
20:30:54 <andythenorth> I’d need to fix sprites
20:31:01 <andythenorth> “patch for that” ? o_O
20:39:22 <andythenorth> TTDP locks stopped the ships and animated them up in z plane?
20:40:40 <Alkel_U3> yep. When I first saw how they just glided up a lock I was amused
20:40:41 <andythenorth> so that’s why they’re 3 tiles
20:41:00 <andythenorth> ottd does not need that
20:42:40 <Wolf01> no, it doesn't, but it would be nice to have
20:45:46 <andythenorth> nah, single tile locks > stop-go locks ;)
20:57:19 <frosch123> Making the ship reverse while inside a lock was funny in TTDP :)
20:58:30 <peter1138> the patch i have makes them stop and go up/down
20:58:59 <peter1138> well other than behing just the ship that does it
20:59:49 <peter1138> but to invoke the R word would make boats suck even more
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21:02:40 <Eddi||zuHause> locks should be done using state machines
21:02:44 *** Eddi||zuHause is now known as frosch123
21:04:59 <Samu> some animated ad displays corrupted lines on tt-forums.net
21:06:31 <Samu> im using microsoft edge browser
21:24:58 <andythenorth> frosch123: I nearly fell for that :)
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21:26:08 * andythenorth might end up using some weird self-patched OpenTTD :P
21:26:25 <andythenorth> can I make a fork, and have it on the compile farm? o_O
21:26:36 <andythenorth> eh, but then I have to do support :P
21:27:47 <V453000> quite cat I have to admit
21:29:49 <V453000> /me went on an insane frenzy yesterday
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21:31:50 <andythenorth> Wolf01: do you buy Technic sets only if the price-per-part is good?
21:32:18 <Wolf01> no, I buy everything above 50€
21:33:00 <supermop> beer hotel meeting was brutal
21:33:06 <Wolf01> it happened I purchased some 15€ sets just for parts
21:33:19 <andythenorth> I am trying to understand these PPP nerds :)
21:33:20 <Wolf01> or got them as presents
21:33:24 <andythenorth> I don’t get their thinking
21:33:50 <supermop> surprisingly hard to cram the square parts of a luxury suite into the round hole of a grain silo
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21:34:10 <Wolf01> technic sets already have the best PPP on the entire lego collection
21:34:34 <Wolf01> some cost more because PF
21:35:11 <andythenorth> I can’t follow their logic :)
21:35:13 <Wolf01> but if you need PF just purchase the volvo front loader and you have plenty of parts too
21:35:23 <andythenorth> it *seems* really logical to do PPP, but, eh, what?
21:35:47 <andythenorth> PPP says I should buy set xyz, but it’s pale blue, and I hate pale blue
21:36:09 <Wolf01> I don't follow the PPP logic too, I purchase them because I like them or because I need x parts
21:36:10 <andythenorth> they seem to only buy the parts, without looking at what the parts are
21:36:17 <andythenorth> or whether they like the model
21:36:38 <andythenorth> supermop: I stayed in a converted windmill once, definitely the bedrooms were compromised
21:36:40 <Alberth> you can sell them at a higher price?
21:36:51 <andythenorth> bathrooms workable, but large beds tend to be rectangular
21:37:07 <Alberth> leave 1m space from the wall :)
21:37:40 <Alberth> also convenient for changing the sheets
21:41:00 <frosch123> andythenorth: maybe they just want a complete collection of all lego parts
21:41:09 <frosch123> like a card trading game
21:41:26 <supermop> frosch123: that was my dream when i was 9-10
21:41:48 <frosch123> they probably have some fancy album with each piece labeled
21:42:07 <supermop> that and to dig a tunnel to neighbor's basement to run lego trains between our two houses
21:42:09 <Alberth> so PPP holds for the parts they don't have :p
21:42:36 <frosch123> supermop: oh, i once wanted to build a trap door into the floor
21:42:52 <frosch123> severly damaged the floor :p
21:47:51 <Wolf01> I need a large collection of some parts, like pins and connectors, 10k each is a fair number
21:49:59 <Wolf01> even gears, racks and some other related stuff is well accepted :P
21:51:58 <supermop> so, British trains again?
21:56:59 <Alberth> more like another attempt is being done?
22:03:50 * andythenorth hopes it succeeds :)
22:06:21 <supermop> all i demand is yellow fronts
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23:46:30 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> can I make a fork, and have it on the compile farm? o_O <-- the answer to that should be "yes"
23:49:21 <Eddi|zuHause> (yes, i know what a rhethorical question looks like)
23:50:00 <andythenorth> it’s probably not a wise idea :)
23:50:18 <andythenorth> I should just maintain my own local patched build
23:51:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't followed the patchpack-"scene" recently
23:51:30 <Eddi|zuHause> used to be that every month or two a new patchpack rose
23:51:50 <Eddi|zuHause> most of them disappearing rather quickly
continue to next day ⏵
