IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-04-22
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01:15:16 <Samu> arf... where is the multiplayer game lobby in the code?
01:15:56 <Samu> you know, that blue window right before joining which lets you create, spectate, start a new comp...
01:16:59 <glx> probably network_gui.cpp or something like that
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01:20:35 <Samu> /* Draw info about selected company when it is selected in the left window. */
01:28:20 <Samu> I see that this SetDParam is key to what I want to do
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15:00:31 <Wolf01> I think V453000 already knows that forum is broken down...
15:17:27 <V453000> because it was useless?
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15:51:01 <supermop> asia megacity weather today
15:51:18 <supermop> 70 now with high of 79, but hazy and very humid
15:51:33 <supermop> makes me wish i was in Sai Gon
15:52:00 <Rubidium> oh, then it's really cool here... only 40
15:53:33 <supermop> thankfully not 40 yet here
15:53:55 <Rubidium> but then, I am in asia megacity (I'd guess)
15:54:01 <supermop> just a week and a half ago it was still as cold as 40 here and i was wishing it would be as hot as 40
15:55:04 <Rubidium> the 8th Asian one by size
15:55:20 <supermop> ha by what sizing criteria?
15:55:40 <supermop> counting surrounding provincial population, or city proper only?
15:55:59 <Eddi|zuHause> it's barely even 10 here
15:56:09 <supermop> should have worn shorts to the office here
15:56:18 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: at least it's not 10
15:56:50 <supermop> im in the 8th overall by that chart then
15:58:31 <Rubidium> when I go to home I'll get in the "other", less sweaty 40 degrees
15:59:14 <supermop> surprised berlin didn't crack that list
15:59:27 <supermop> seems like it would have a wide enough outlying area
15:59:44 <Eddi|zuHause> berlin has only like 4.5 million
16:00:02 <Eddi|zuHause> (i think it peaked in the 1920s with 6 million)
16:00:37 <Eddi|zuHause> turns out, massive war destruction and divided isolation isn't good for city growth
16:00:43 * Rubidium wonders what belongs to a city and what doesn't belong to a city
16:01:08 <Rubidium> e.g. Enschede is said to be in the outskirts of Amsterdam, but that would imply it is relatively close, right?
16:01:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: no, just that there's hardly any non-urban area inbetween
16:01:50 <supermop> Rubidium: opinions differ on that
16:02:56 <Rubidium> well, there's a bit of about 30 kilometer with effectively nothing but forest between Amsterdam and Enschede
16:02:57 <supermop> a lot of people count New York in a way that gives it only like 9 million instead of the 23 or so on that list
16:03:10 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: germany was never as centralized as england or france, so berlin was never that much of an attention center to attract 10 million people on its own. the only german mega-city is the ruhr-area, where many smaller cities basically merged into one metropolitan area
16:03:48 <supermop> Rubidium: i'd say 30 km of forest definitely is the border of the urban area
16:04:07 <Rubidium> also, Enschede is at the German border at the opposite side of the country as Amsterdam
16:04:13 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: there's also a counting which includes Boston, New York and Washington areas into "Bosnywash"
16:04:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that just means your country is tiny :p
16:05:11 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: i'd say any city that takes 8 hours by fastest train to traverse on one axis and 20 minutes on the other axis is stretching the definition a bit
16:05:31 <supermop> by car more like 12 hours
16:05:51 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: but how much of the area that you cross from washington to boston is "rural"?
16:06:01 <supermop> and spans 3-4 different climates
16:06:21 <supermop> there are a lot of less developed pockets in central NJ
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16:07:12 <supermop> the overall density of NJ is high and homogeneous at a large scale, but on the town or neighborhood scale it is like swiss cheese
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16:07:32 <supermop> same with parts of maryland on the drive between here and DC
16:09:07 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: anyway, the point was that this definition of "megacity" doesn't stop at political city borders, but includes neighbouring cities
16:09:35 <Eddi|zuHause> so if the city of new york has 9 million, the other 12 million come from other cities, like across the river
16:10:35 <supermop> and on long island, etc
16:11:18 <Rubidium> it's apparantly determined by commuting patterns
16:11:29 <supermop> just stating that the bos-wash concept is a bit extreme as it counts areas that dont commute with each other, and contains many pockets of undeveloped land
16:12:18 <supermop> a few people do commute between washington and NYC by shuttle flights, but that is a tiny percentage, and usually not every day all year
16:12:29 <supermop> just for certain projects or court cases
16:12:46 <Eddi|zuHause> that kinda stretches the definition of "commute"
16:13:08 <supermop> yeah, so i wouldnt count it
16:13:20 <supermop> b that definition a lot of New Yorkers
16:14:14 <Eddi|zuHause> a german court recently ruled that a commute must end at one single working place, so when you work at different places, the travel to those places is considered work time
16:14:26 <supermop> also some people "commute" from Osaka to Tokyo by Shinkansen
16:14:53 <Rubidium> is similar to your BosWash
16:15:27 <Rubidium> but nevertheless, it's about the average commute not the extremes
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16:15:42 <Eddi|zuHause> but by that definition, you'd also merge Amsterdam and the Rhein-Ruhr area
16:16:44 <supermop> i guess it does get fuzzy in Princeton NJ, where maybe 35% of people commute to NYC, and 35% commute to Philadelphia, and the rest work locally
16:17:12 <supermop> in Connecticut no one commutes to Boston,
16:17:36 <supermop> but in Rhode Island, some Commute to Boston and some commute to Conecticut
16:18:08 <supermop> Rubidium: commute over the Alps?
16:18:13 <Eddi|zuHause> crossing the north sea and the alps is really stretching it :p
16:18:37 <Rubidium> it's on Wikipedia, so it must be true
16:21:49 <supermop> It always strikes me, when I fly from my parents city in Ohio back to NYC at night,
16:21:50 <Rubidium> though Greater Copenhagen also contains Malmo
16:22:15 <supermop> that almost as soon as you take off you can start to see the glowing core of NY
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16:22:32 <Eddi|zuHause> in france you have a giant red blob, and then yellow, and in germany you have loads of tiny red blobs
16:22:35 <supermop> even though its more than 500 miles away and over a mountain range
16:23:19 <supermop> poor showing by central VN on that one
16:23:23 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I think a major thing in there is the size of the area that is used
16:23:43 <Rubidium> e.g. Moscow and St Petersburg I would expect as red dots, but they are nowhere to be see
16:23:49 <supermop> Mekong and red river delta show up redder than I expected though
16:24:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess data resolution varies by country
16:24:24 <Rubidium> also in France you see much larger areas with the same shade, so they probably used departements instead of counties that seem to be used in Germany
16:24:39 <Rubidium> in the Netherlands provinces seem to be used
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16:26:58 <Rubidium> interestingly enough the Dutch metropolitan area is more or less donut shaped
16:27:12 <supermop> other night our fancy bottle of tobala mezcal we brought back from oaxaca fell off of fridge and broke
16:27:32 <Rubidium> a ring of large towns around a rural area (which is now effectively protected from urbanisation)
16:28:00 <supermop> then last night, fiance's office was broken into and computers stolen along with the other fancy bottle for mezcal, that she kept at her desk to share with team mates
16:28:18 <supermop> now we need to go back to mexico
16:28:21 <Wolf01> the curse of the mezcal bottle
16:28:57 <supermop> im sure by boss will accept all that as grounds for personal emergency trip to Mexico Ciy
16:29:07 <Eddi|zuHause> you know you can order stuff on the internet now?
16:29:47 <supermop> mezcal is very expensive here
16:29:57 <Eddi|zuHause> you can probably hire mexicans over the internet, too :p
16:30:02 <supermop> these bottles were about 30 usd in mexico,
16:30:15 <supermop> and the bottles that were 20 usd there are 150 here
16:30:30 <supermop> and the small distillers dont have any us distribution
16:31:03 <Eddi|zuHause> you probably have to deal with loads of customs stuff to export/import alcohol
16:31:09 <supermop> i didnt want to ask for any wedding gifts, but i think i will put "go to mexico and get me mezcal" on the gift registry
16:31:27 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: yes, NAFTA doesn't do us individuals any favors
16:31:50 <Rubidium> so, a round trip seems to be about 500 USD
16:32:27 <Rubidium> I reckon you may import two bottles, since it's distilled... so the price difference needs to be 250 USD
16:32:32 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: but "over the internet" i meant something like: hire someone in mexico to go to the store and send you a package
16:33:09 <Rubidium> in other words, getting it yourself is about 120 USD more expensive per bottle (assuming you can get it for cheap at the airport)
16:33:20 <supermop> so two 750ml bottles and one 500
16:34:02 <supermop> but you must account for the good cheap food one eats in Mexico
16:34:08 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: make sure to include a letter in the package stating this is a gift for the long friendship you built
16:34:51 <supermop> and i will just happen to send a gift for the price of the bottles and shipping plus a little extra
16:35:01 <Rubidium> if you can't get it for cheap at the airport, you also need to include transport
16:35:08 <Eddi|zuHause> well, there's no point in sending a 20$ bottle if you have to pay 100$ customs fees
16:35:20 <Rubidium> so Eddi|zuHause's idea is better
16:35:26 <supermop> metro is about 0.05 USD
16:36:00 <Rubidium> no extortion rates for airport links like in the UK and Delhi
16:36:23 <Rubidium> although India's way better with extortion rates at other places
16:36:32 <Eddi|zuHause> and do absolutely make sure there's no receit for the actual bottle in the package :p
16:36:33 <supermop> but the best mezcal is in Oaxaca, and flights from Mexico DF to OAX are more expensive than flights from JFK to MEX
16:37:04 <supermop> so i guess i should email the Zapotec tour guide we had in Oaxaca
16:37:34 <Rubidium> I think, in general, a foreigner pays 15 to 25 times more than a local for musea/tourist attractions
16:40:12 <supermop> our tour guide regaled us of the time he accidentally bought a garbage bag full of weed for around 100 usd
16:40:55 <supermop> he having grown up in California assumed that would be a normal price to pay when he moved back
16:49:51 <supermop> sound like most of her work was saved though
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16:53:54 <andythenorth> I am playing a BB game on a 256x256 map
16:54:06 <andythenorth> I am 30 years in, and I would kind of like it to build some new industries
16:54:11 <andythenorth> I wonder if that’s a good idea
16:54:18 <andythenorth> I could just build them myself :P
16:54:44 <Alberth> would make more sense as an industrial bee :)
16:55:27 <andythenorth> GS has libraries?
16:55:35 <Alberth> worker bee sounds good :)
16:55:49 <Alberth> there are GS libraries
16:55:57 <andythenorth> eh, I don’t want to over-engineer, just wondering if there is a case for a library of simple goals
16:56:31 <Alberth> I don't know what the GS library does in terms of goals
16:56:39 <Alberth> maybe it already supports them
16:56:43 <supermop> complete a primary goal and it builds a secondary industry?
16:56:59 <Alberth> stuff like that, I would say
16:57:29 <andythenorth> the idea I have is not for industries as rewards
16:57:53 <andythenorth> I was thinking that the script might try and watch the number of industries, possibly dividing the map into quadrants
16:58:02 <andythenorth> and build more when it’s getting harder to assign goals
16:58:08 <andythenorth> we already do a portion of that in BB
16:58:21 <andythenorth> we track the available industry-cargo pairs iirc?
16:58:54 <Alberth> not really, we have a set of suppliers and a set of accpeting industries
16:58:58 <supermop> i was thinking the industry wouldn't be a reward, but just not crowd the map with dormant tertiary industries before their supply chains are established
16:59:11 <Alberth> but you could track how good connections can be made
16:59:22 <Alberth> or what the player prefers
17:00:03 <Alberth> supermop: those don't really exist in eg firs
17:00:13 <andythenorth> my map is running out of some industry types, BB will struggle to assign goals
17:00:41 <Alberth> it's trying to tell you to like other industries :p
17:01:14 <Alberth> I could see that as an extension
17:03:02 <andythenorth> it doesn’t need to be perfect
17:03:34 <andythenorth> I often found with flash games that some pseudo-random was as effective as a carefully figured out detailed deterministic algorithm
17:04:30 * andythenorth wonders if BB could just roll a dice every n years for founding an industry
17:04:53 <andythenorth> the only nice detail I think is essential is then assigning a goal to that industry
17:18:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yay for sites that just display empty pages...
17:19:13 <V453000> :D it's that direct I see
17:19:22 <V453000> <3 thanks, was a lot of work
17:20:02 <Alberth> lots of metal bits, looks used :)
17:20:37 <andythenorth> page not worky :(
17:21:52 <Alkel_U3> it worky, but it took me like 2 minutes to get just the html, now for the imges and css
17:22:04 <Alberth> "thrower" is a bit off, perhaps, though :p
17:22:10 <V453000> something might be borken
17:22:22 <andythenorth> V453000: the lighting element is awesome
17:23:26 <Alkel_U3> everyone got so excited about the turret they totally overwhelmed the servers? :-)
17:23:26 <V453000> metal bits are factorio style Alberth :P
17:24:06 <V453000> andythenorth: yeah ... but the biggest hell was to get the thing work in sprites in factorio projection system. :) all done now
17:25:37 <V453000> Apparently, Alkel_U3 :D
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17:57:17 <supermop> andythenorth: any reason to not carry livestock in this modern silvery box car?
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17:58:53 <supermop> and does milk travel better in the refridgerator car or the tanker?
18:05:58 <andythenorth> supermop: does the box car refit livestock? :o :)
18:06:53 <andythenorth> edibles tanker and reefer have same payment curve, pick the one you like the look of
18:07:19 <andythenorth> the mantra of Iron Horse is ‘one obvious choice’
18:07:32 <andythenorth> and when there is more than once choice ‘pick the one you like the look of'
18:07:40 <supermop> all but passengers, clay, coal, ore, sand, scrap
18:07:52 <supermop> for the 160kmh boxcar
18:08:40 <supermop> might put milk in the container carrier or the gondola
18:09:02 <supermop> to carry supplies to clay pit on return trip
18:11:44 <supermop> boxcar is 160kmh whereas livestock car is 136
18:12:03 <supermop> not planning on running this train with vulcans though
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18:41:49 <supermop> Still cant bring myself to map out japanese cars
18:42:04 <supermop> maybe ill start drawing sprites for the trains
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18:56:01 <andythenorth> supermop: eh, well maybe I’ll poke at the wagons tonight
18:56:23 <supermop> not trying to be lazy
18:56:52 <supermop> just, they dont seem particularly exottic or different from other wagons
18:57:24 <supermop> i guess one could take the 2nd or so gen wagons from pony to use as the "big" wagons
18:57:36 <andythenorth> antelope would be better
18:58:04 <andythenorth> for antelope I’m mostly using South African, because there is info about that available easily
18:58:11 <andythenorth> even though it’s “wrong"
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19:23:59 <Alberth> nah, it's only wrong if you let it :)
19:40:22 <Samu> Alberth: it says you're a GUI expert
19:44:27 <Samu> i have a request, i'd like a summary of all companies in 1 window
19:44:57 <Samu> something similar to console command "companies"
19:45:39 <Samu> but always refreshing, to keep it updated
19:48:11 <Samu> yesterday I tried to put this info in the Company League Table, but can't even start
19:48:36 <Samu> i also don't know if that's the best place to display that info
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19:53:12 <Alberth> nice command, didn't know it existed :p
19:54:35 <Alberth> company league looks as good as any other window, I think
19:55:13 <glx> always refreshing is the easy part ;)
19:56:15 <glx> just dirtify the window in the game loop
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20:09:13 <frosch123> V453000: stop shooting your coworkers
20:09:47 <andythenorth> so how about ships that don’t have stopped / moving states (no wake sprites)? o_O
20:25:04 <supermop> ended up getting udon instead
20:35:57 <supermop> idk why i wore sambas today feet are way too hot
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20:52:41 <andythenorth> supermop I’ll look at japanese wagons
20:53:15 <supermop> well, whats the first order of business? drawing, research, or making a spreadsheet?
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20:53:32 <supermop> i feel like we can use gut feeling in place of most of the research
20:54:37 <andythenorth> don’t need a spreadsheet, just general style per generation
20:55:11 <andythenorth> style is composed of: 2 axle / 4 axle; long / short; squat / tall
20:55:34 <V453000> I just write down gameplay specifics
20:56:28 <andythenorth> 3 generations, 20 / 30 / 50 units cargo
20:56:33 <andythenorth> what’s to write down?
20:56:54 <V453000> ok if it's just wagons XD
20:58:05 <andythenorth> you are right, gameplay first
20:58:10 <andythenorth> I just did that bit already a few times
20:58:33 <V453000> did, and how did it turn out LO
20:58:54 <supermop> 3 axle for NG? i recall they had some of those
20:59:18 <andythenorth> I had to reset Horse wagons maybe twice
20:59:34 <andythenorth> fix speeds, stop pissing about with too many different capacities
20:59:55 <andythenorth> some types have faster load speed
20:59:57 <andythenorth> it’s all automated
21:00:09 <andythenorth> some have cargo payment bonus
21:00:13 <andythenorth> again, automated
21:00:23 <supermop> i dont use the 3rd gen passenger cars as take too long to load
21:00:37 <andythenorth> I thought I fixed that?
21:00:39 <supermop> dont care if the passengers are uncomfortable
21:01:11 <supermop> but i am spoiled by other sets and want my trains off the platform in 5 days or less
21:01:36 <andythenorth> meh, loading speed :P
21:02:35 <supermop> maybe these do load faster
21:02:50 <supermop> i only have one passenger train in this little at work game
21:03:02 <supermop> and it has a rake of 2nd gen stock
21:03:22 <supermop> may replace for a rake of slammers
21:05:33 <andythenorth> I think I’ll turn rivers off in my next game
21:05:42 <andythenorth> they’re such a gameplay non-event :)
21:05:55 <andythenorth> absolutely useless :)
21:06:05 <Alberth> I dropped those a while back already, too annoying :)
21:06:24 <supermop> have a bit of actually work designing to do this afternoon so minimal ottd
21:06:29 <Alberth> bad for ships however :)
21:06:44 <andythenorth> you never route a ship up a river, unless you have a flat map
21:06:50 <andythenorth> locks are too hard to build
21:06:58 <andythenorth> 3 tiles is stupid
21:07:11 <Alberth> lots of space required indeed
21:07:12 <andythenorth> and you can’t build them under bridges (I assume map has not enough bits)
21:07:25 <andythenorth> and river corners look ugly
21:08:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i think nobody actually bothered with bridges over locks
21:08:21 <Eddi|zuHause> should be no shortage of bits
21:08:59 <andythenorth> I start building locks on a river, I have to build so many canal parts to join them, there’s no river left :P
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21:26:25 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, locks are terribly unwieldy
21:26:43 <andythenorth> state machine? o_O
21:26:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't want to bring it up :p
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22:19:18 <Samu> one day i will be back to locks, docks, rivers and all that :o
22:19:34 <Samu> wanted to continue he work i started a year ago
22:25:21 <Samu_> the ai debug window has a button that is also shared by the ai config window
22:26:53 <Samu_> can i reuse a string from another window into the window i am editing?
22:27:39 <Samu_> I want the AI config window to toggle between STR_AI_CONFIG_CONFIGURE and STR_AI_DEBUG_SETTINGS
22:32:26 <Wolf01> seen yesterday, really impressive
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23:00:09 <Samu_> what's a template command?
23:02:15 <Samu_> why's that something apparently so simple to edit becomes so hard to do in code :(
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23:37:49 <Samu_> how do i create an empty string that isn't empty
23:37:58 <Samu_> erm... how to explain this
23:39:03 <Samu_> STR_AI_CONFIG_CHANGE :{BLACK}Select {STRING}
23:39:30 <Samu_> the {STRING} part is replaced with
23:39:33 <Samu_> STR_AI_CONFIG_CHANGE_AI :AI
23:39:42 <Samu_> or STR_AI_CONFIG_CHANGE_GAMESCRIPT :Game Script
23:40:08 <Samu_> and it becomes either Select AI or Select Game Script
23:40:37 <Samu_> I want to create some other similar thing, for the Configure button
23:40:56 <Samu_> but I don't want {BLACK} Configure
23:41:19 <Samu_> then it writes in it either Configure or Select
23:41:30 <Samu_> but it is not accepting emtpy strings
23:42:33 <Samu_> STR_AI_CONFIG_CONFIGURE : {STRING}
23:42:52 <Samu_> STR_AI_CONFIG_CONFIGURE_CONFIGURE : {BLACK}Configure
23:43:05 <Samu_> STR_AI_CONFIG_CONFIGURE_SETTINGS : {BLACK}Settings
23:43:39 <Samu_> it says STR_AI_CONFIG_CONFIGURE : {STRING} is an empty string
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