IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-04-06
⏴ go to previous day
00:59:02 <Samu> i got some weird crash error, asking for an enemergy save
00:59:59 <Wolf01> some more info about what your modification could have caused it?
01:01:27 <Samu> got 8 servers running, while also 8 clients watching, 1 for each server
01:02:25 <Samu> there's some mess happenning, gonna be hard to explain
01:02:39 <Samu> one of the clients on server 8 got a desync error
01:02:55 <Samu> client 1, watching server 1, got the emergency crash
01:03:13 <Samu> but server 3 is the one that disappeared
01:03:49 <Samu> client 3 is no longer watching server 3, it's back to main menu
01:04:08 <Samu> what I don't get it is how server 1 is still running
01:04:28 <Wolf01> because the client had the error, not the server
01:05:01 <Samu> I was supposed to be getting 8 servers running
01:05:12 <Samu> server 3 is gone... without error
01:05:12 <Wolf01> or it is stuck at saving?
01:05:42 <Wolf01> I'm thinking about thread safety
01:06:18 <Wolf01> you should ask somebody more wise about this error
01:06:34 <Wolf01> I can only make assumptions
01:06:46 <Samu> the explanation is misleading, let me try again
01:07:30 <Samu> what i mean with client 1, is me with an openttd instance spectating the game hosted by server 1. I associated it as client 1 = server 1
01:08:29 <glx> there should be some details in the crash window
01:08:41 <Samu> server 3 crashed without error > spectator 3 got the network error
01:09:06 <Samu> server 1 did not crash > spectator 1 crashed with the emergency save
01:09:20 <glx> of course if the server is gone without notice the client get a network error
01:09:25 <Samu> this happened shortly after server 8 client getting a desync error
01:09:48 <Samu> oops, client 8 on server 8 getting a desync error
01:10:59 <Samu> let me upload bug report
01:11:32 <glx> if you modified the code it's useless
01:12:31 <Wolf01> are you using multiplayer safe AIs?
01:12:34 <Samu> i ran the convert.exe utility
01:13:12 <Wolf01> ah ok, was related to the modified code
01:14:14 <Samu> start /D "C:\Program Files\OpenTTD" openttd.exe -n :3979#255
01:14:23 <Samu> the servers are not on C:
01:14:49 <Samu> the client instances are not modified at all, not even converted
01:15:38 <Wolf01> something in the running games? grfs? AIs?
01:15:45 <Samu> yes, AI's on all of them
01:16:30 <Wolf01> maybe one AI executed a command which caused the desync?
01:21:16 <Samu> there is a crash dump from server 3 as well
01:46:57 *** ConductorCat has joined #openttd
01:55:57 <Samu> the desync on server 8 was not recent after all
01:57:36 <Samu> how often does the "advertising to master server" happen?
01:57:57 <Samu> if i know that number, i can precise better when the desync happened
02:00:38 <Samu> I count 36 messages of "advertising to master server" after the desync
02:20:18 <Samu> recv failed with error 10054
02:31:38 *** Guest10461 has joined #openttd
02:36:16 <glx> recv failed is a network error
03:03:29 <Samu> server 1 is getting too slow
03:03:53 <Samu> there's about 12000 total vehicles in it
03:04:13 <Samu> roadrunner is bad at dealing with truck jams
03:05:18 <Samu> it's commiting suicide, they will all bankrupt. the ais are trying to add more trucks because of waiting cargo in the stations, but this creates more jam
03:05:48 <Samu> more jams, more waiting cargo, more trucks - repeat cycle, until bankrupt
03:10:12 <Samu> performance goes to hell
04:24:12 *** smoke_fumus has joined #openttd
04:30:21 *** Biolunar_ has joined #openttd
07:24:33 *** Monkey_ has joined #openttd
07:38:12 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
07:43:48 *** Clockworker_ has joined #openttd
09:44:14 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
12:29:16 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
13:05:10 *** Monkey_ has joined #openttd
13:06:05 <Samu> is this feature in place? - drag a savegame file and drop it on openttd.exe to have it launch openttd and load that savegame?
13:12:50 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest10524
13:12:50 *** Wolf03 is now known as Wolf01
13:15:02 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest10525
13:15:02 *** Wolf03 is now known as Wolf01
13:34:54 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
14:07:24 *** Quatroking has joined #openttd
14:25:17 <argoneus> good morning train friends
14:31:48 <Samu> are savegames compressed with lzma? lzma2? other?
14:33:12 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
14:40:38 <Samu> so, from my testings, savegames can be compressed even further
14:44:03 <Samu> i picked a 119.000 bytes .sav file, uncompressed it to 1.956.990 bytes, then compressed it to 103.918 bytes
14:44:16 <Samu> and still using lzma2 method
14:45:10 <Samu> oh wait, no... method was lzma, not lzma2 :(
14:46:11 <Wolf01> (just because I'm curious)
14:48:04 *** MagiCrazy has joined #openttd
14:48:32 <MagiCrazy> I'm trying to compile openttd on Alpine/ARM
14:48:40 <MagiCrazy> for a dedicated light server
14:49:02 <MagiCrazy> The compilation runs well
14:49:33 <MagiCrazy> but I get an error about zlib when it's trying to link openttd
14:49:49 <MagiCrazy> I can see there's a workaround for PSP in the Makefile
14:50:18 <Wolf01> I usually disable zlib on windows too, I had the same errors
14:50:21 <MagiCrazy> I wonder if it's the same, the explanation in comments is not that clear
14:51:02 <MagiCrazy> disabling on Windows makes sense... but on linux...
14:51:37 <Wolf01> eh, the libraries for the target platforms are available?
14:52:21 <MagiCrazy> oh, I was running another test while talking, it seems I found a way !
14:53:16 <MagiCrazy> in the Makefile.src.in file, I added "-lz" to the linking command
14:53:43 <MagiCrazy> $(Q)+$(CXX_HOST) $(LDFLAGS) $(OBJS) $(LIBS) -o $@
14:53:47 <MagiCrazy> $(Q)+$(CXX_HOST) -lz $(LDFLAGS) $(OBJS) $(LIBS) -o $@
14:54:05 <Wolf01> hmmm, where's andy when you need him? @work I suppose
14:54:10 <MagiCrazy> would it be a good idea to propose the workaround ?
14:54:19 <MagiCrazy> in a less crappy way ;)
14:58:23 <MagiCrazy> I'll stay here until day end, in case someone wants to talk to me ;)
14:59:11 <Samu> im still running the whole lzma2 batches to find out the optimal parameters for strongest compression
14:59:52 <Samu> but it looks like lzma will win
15:03:36 <Samu> ew... this is gonna take the whole day
15:03:59 <Samu> running through all lzma parameter combinations
15:08:43 <MagiCrazy> what do you want to compress ?
15:09:27 <MagiCrazy> About my issue, I don't get it. I'm trying to run again the build, as I want to automate it, but I can see that configure adds "-lz" in LDFLAGS...
15:09:50 <Samu> currently, an uncompressed .sav
15:09:53 <MagiCrazy> Samu: they're that massive?
15:10:44 <Samu> .sav files are compressed with lzma2:method21
15:10:56 <Samu> I'm now trying to figure out a stronger method
15:11:40 <Samu> but i dont know if devs would change any lzma2 parameters for compressing savegames
15:12:54 *** Eddi|zuHause2 has joined #openttd
15:13:28 *** Hiddenfunstuff has joined #openttd
15:16:26 <Wolf01> Samu, I suppose you know that stronger methods may require more cpu/ram or even time, so think about that, and if you only save 15KB I think it's too much work for to little benefit
15:17:20 <Samu> what is the max allowed dictionary size you guys have?
15:18:32 <MagiCrazy> Samu: where can I find this information ?
15:19:36 <Samu> i dont mean your rig, i mean openttd, the 32 bits openttd
15:19:52 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
15:20:02 <MagiCrazy> I'm at work, so it's not installed... sorry
15:20:08 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
15:20:35 <Wolf01> and where I'm supposed to check that?
15:20:52 <Samu> when openttd saves a game, it specifies a maximum dictionary size for lzma2
15:21:09 <Samu> so as to limit amount of ram use
15:21:24 <Samu> I really have no idea either
15:42:45 <Wolf01> bah, "start developing with XYZ", the first thing I expect from a tutorial is which namespaces I need to import as it can't import them automagically and give meaningful names too
15:47:17 <Samu> a few things are becoming common from these testings
15:47:34 <Samu> multithreaded compression yields less compression
15:47:52 <Samu> word size of 273 yields best compression
15:48:40 <Samu> but it's also the slowest at compressing, of all word sizes options available
15:49:22 <Samu> block size doesn't seem to matter, it's only compressing 1 single file
15:54:41 <Samu> oh, block size it actually matters when the dictionary size is too small
16:19:50 *** supermop has joined #openttd
16:21:18 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
16:39:36 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
16:41:31 <Samu> just found out the compression openttd uses is preset -2, this is the default lzma
16:41:40 <Samu> 0 would be fastest, 9 would be slowest
16:41:50 <Samu> ottd uses default, and default is 2
16:46:25 <Samu> default method of preset 2 is lzma2
16:49:11 *** _johannes has joined #openttd
17:28:45 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
17:28:46 <Compu> so why doesnt openttd have waterway tunnels?
17:31:38 <MagiCrazy> it seems like a controversial topic =)
17:31:44 <Samu> I see devs have already fiddled with lzma filters and came up with preset 2
17:32:49 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
17:32:49 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
17:32:59 <Compu> i think the correct term is canal tunnels
17:33:44 <Compu> just saying, those exist, and would make getting boats into cities a bit easier
17:35:15 <Alberth> they'd glitch like hell
17:35:31 <Compu> they shouldnt any more than road tunnels should they?
17:36:30 <Alberth> ever compared size of ship with size of truck?
17:37:08 <Compu> oh u mean graphical glitches?
17:37:23 <Compu> as in the ship having part of it out of the tunnel?
17:37:35 <Compu> dont the ships do that with canals anyways?
17:37:47 <Alberth> or next to the tunnel even
17:38:11 <Alberth> depending on how much raised land there is just next to it
17:38:21 <Compu> i dont think people come to openttd for the graphics >.>
17:41:55 <Samu> i just found out that saving games is not multithreaded :8
17:42:31 <Samu> saving a 4096x4096 game and only using 12~13% of a 8-core cpu
17:44:12 <Alberth> it is multi-threaded!
17:44:36 <Alberth> map is copied, and playing continues, while a different thread saves the data to disk
17:44:49 <Samu> ah, i mean the task of compressing
17:45:39 <Alberth> don't call it "save" then :p
17:45:59 <Alberth> yes, copy must be done without making any change to the map
17:46:12 <Alberth> and at such sizes, you will notice a delay
17:47:28 <Alberth> throwing more cpus at it won't help you much, I think, as you're mostly blocked, waiting for main memory
17:47:37 <Samu> erm, I paused the game, then saved and watched cpu usage
17:49:23 <Alberth> nah, CPUs are several 100s times faster
17:49:39 <Compu> the faster RAM can handle faster data transfer
17:49:48 <Compu> which means the copy should go faster
17:49:55 <Alberth> yes, but still, CPUs are 100s times faster
17:50:09 <Compu> yes but the copy is do FROM ram
17:50:30 <Compu> so the RAM speed is the bottleneck here
17:50:42 <Alberth> but CPUs are 100s times faster
17:50:56 <Compu> yeah stop repeating that
17:50:59 <Alberth> double the memory speed, and you gain less than 1%
17:51:09 <Samu> lol compu, it was only using 1 core for compressing the save
17:51:10 <Compu> u do know the definition of bottleneck, right>
17:51:19 <Samu> i got 8, it could use all them
17:51:42 <Samu> it would be at best 8 times faster
17:51:43 <Compu> Samu: do u really need it to tho?
17:51:45 <Alberth> sure, but with an order of magnitude difference, faster memory makes no difference
17:52:08 <Compu> it depends on whats needed
17:52:41 <Compu> for most things unless ur using the main RAM as graphics RAM too the RAM speed doesnt matter
17:53:01 <Compu> because most things wont benefit from the RAM being able to transfer data quicker
17:53:10 <Compu> but ur saying its copying from ram and back to ram
17:53:23 *** yorick_ has joined #openttd
17:53:27 <Compu> that is one of the rare cases where faster ram would make a difference
17:54:31 <Compu> the RAM speed is the bottleneck there
17:56:02 <Alberth> using a 2048x4096 map goes much faster in speed up
17:56:11 <Alberth> 1/2 the data -> 200% gain
17:57:04 <Compu> Alberth: 200% the speed
17:58:38 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
18:00:05 <Wolf01> we should save in the CPU, maybe one day CPUs will come with 16GB cache, so no more RAM required
18:02:13 <Wolf01> mmmmh, I'm stuck again with this adaptive layout :|
18:02:19 <frosch123> just copy the stuff to /dev/null
18:02:24 <frosch123> it's quite fast and big
18:02:34 <supermop> Wolf01: by that time people will be playing 17GB maps
18:02:37 <Compu> by the time CPUs have 16 GB caches we'll have 4 TB RAM size as basic minimum
18:02:49 <Wolf01> eh, but you have to copy from ram first, which is the bottleneck as we stated
18:03:54 <Compu> we have, what 16 MB caches now?
18:04:21 <Compu> back in the DOS days u could run DOS and games and even windows 3.11 with just that amount as RAM
18:04:29 *** sim-al2 is now known as Guest10550
18:04:30 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
18:04:46 <Compu> back then CPUs had 1 KB caches
18:05:03 <Wolf01> my 386 had 8MB of ram, expanded to 16 after some years
18:05:14 <Compu> woo im tycoon of the century on this server
18:05:28 <Compu> coming up on $300,000,000
18:05:43 <Compu> with 5 trains and a boat
18:05:59 <Compu> making $10,000,000 each year
18:06:43 <Wolf01> sometimes when I need to boost I'll borrow the entire amount and purchase one plane, build 2 airports and fast forward 2 years
18:07:42 <Wolf01> then I return the money and start playing :P
18:08:17 <Compu> i start with 1 train, pay off my bank loan, and then go from there
18:08:31 <Compu> slowly making super complicated tracks :D
18:09:04 <Wolf01> I usually start with ships ^^
18:10:15 <Wolf01> if I find the perfect place, I can have a fleet of ships before the 5th year
18:10:31 <Compu> i've since expanded and everything is maglev now
18:10:50 <Compu> i moved the depots back
18:11:11 <Compu> put to 1 way lines (1 going in and 1 going out) to the depots
18:11:43 <Compu> that way the trains going into the depots dont slow down trains on the main line so much
18:12:05 <Compu> since the depot speed limit is 38 MPH and i have trains going at 400 MPH
18:15:29 <Wolf01> yes, that's the standard solution, dedicated acceleration/deceleration lanes
18:24:16 <Compu> i also do 1 way lines for the entire route
18:24:28 <Compu> everything is 1 way tracks
18:24:45 <Compu> makes things easier to manage
18:28:17 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
18:31:22 <Alberth> also standard, as one way track increases through put a lot
18:31:30 <Wolf01> meh, null reference error :|
18:34:16 <Wolf01> I have a great desire to define 11 breakpoints, one for each screen size instead of just 3 for different devices :|
18:34:23 *** Myhorta has joined #openttd
18:35:08 <Wolf01> and I'm lucky there isn't andy here because he would have slapped the shit out of me
18:43:00 <Alberth> just let everything call a void silly_function() {} :p
18:58:04 *** Clockworker__ has joined #openttd
19:06:14 *** Progman has joined #openttd
19:18:47 *** Ketsuban has joined #openttd
19:24:42 *** MonkeyDronez has joined #openttd
19:35:55 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
19:43:43 *** Clockworker_ has joined #openttd
19:45:44 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27535 trunk/src/lang/norwegian_bokmal.txt (2016-04-06 19:45:35 +0200 )
19:45:46 <DorpsGek> norwegian (bokmal): 16 changes by Leifbk
19:48:48 <Samu> 2^21 = 2 MB dictionary size
19:49:14 <Samu> openttd saves with a dictionary size of 2 MB
19:50:35 <Samu> but it's only using lzma2 in single-thread
19:52:28 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
19:54:50 <Samu> options->nice_len = level <= 1 ? 128 : 273;
19:55:19 <Samu> level in the case of openttd is = 2
19:55:48 <Samu> nice_len = 2 <= 1 ? 128 : 273 - what the hell is the result?
19:56:09 <glx> the result is nice_len = 273
19:56:55 <glx> it's just the ?: operator
19:57:28 <Samu> preset 2 using a word size of 273? 273 is slow, i must be looking at this wrong
20:00:34 <Samu> it should be 32, according to 7-zip
20:00:53 <Samu> but 7-zip is a different program
20:18:50 *** Wormnest_ has joined #openttd
20:21:59 <Samu> what is the liblzma version you use on openttd?
20:23:01 <Samu> version 5.2.0 supports multithreaded, though not recomended for production use, whatever that means
20:23:32 <Wolf01> that means you should not use it on ottd
20:26:23 *** gelignite has joined #openttd
20:26:32 <Samu> 5.2.2 is the latest version
20:26:50 <Samu> that means.... cool stuff
20:27:09 <Wolf01> bah, I don't get how to work with this stuff, it throws errors everywhere or it just doesn't work
20:28:14 <Samu> a crash report however reports LZMA: 5.0.4
20:35:11 <Alberth> just what is available at build time, probably
20:58:41 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
21:00:42 <Samu> extern LZMA_API(uint32_t) lzma_cputhreads(void) lzma_nothrow;
21:10:37 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
21:17:33 *** Bluelight has joined #openttd
21:28:00 *** Goddesen has joined #openttd
21:36:11 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
21:55:07 *** Long_yanG has joined #openttd
21:57:03 *** TrueBrain has joined #openttd
22:23:41 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
22:33:08 *** Hiddenfunstuff has quit IRC
22:37:17 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
22:37:54 *** FLHerne_ has joined #openttd
22:47:16 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
23:27:44 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
continue to next day ⏵
