IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-04-04
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00:18:50 <Samu> poor supermod designed the sprites and now i don't know what to do with them
00:20:26 <Samu> only now I realised waterfall waves going down canal slopes
00:20:44 <Samu> rivers don't have this :8
00:22:24 <Samu> whoever designed canals should come back to help me
00:33:31 <Samu> is there a bug with full animation?
00:34:00 <Samu> when I move mouse cursor around, the tiles pause their animation momentaneously
00:34:24 <Samu> if i stop moving mouse cursor, the tiles start animating
00:40:51 <Samu> seems to happen only during scenario editor
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00:55:19 <Eddi|zuHause> so... *something* happened...
00:55:47 <Eddi|zuHause> and it got the kezboard lazout wrong...
01:05:40 <Eddi|zuHause> man... everzthing is different... it|s terrible
01:05:54 <Eddi|zuHause> and i don|t get whz the kezboard is wrong...
01:06:26 <Eddi|zuHause> it's better now...
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02:14:04 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i think i broke it :/
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11:27:31 <Eddi|zuHause> why does nothing ever work out of the box?
11:28:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i installed graphics drivers, and all i got was this black screen.
11:31:51 <Wolf01> with vs2015 I had to do a repair just after the installatio, because the installation does not install everything
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15:07:33 <andythenorth> ^ from reading that, it’s quite interesting mechanic
15:09:53 * Wolf01 requires more experience on writing adaptive UIs :|
15:11:25 <andythenorth> what are you building?
15:12:17 <andythenorth> you need to scale to arbitrary screen size?
15:12:22 <andythenorth> or specific known ranges?
15:12:22 <Wolf01> I have 3 breakpoints and need to find a good layout to fit all elements
15:12:34 <andythenorth> ok, well what’s the 3rd breakpoints?
15:12:46 <andythenorth> I usually work with 3, but one of them is borderline useless
15:13:01 <Wolf01> mobile, tablet and desktop
15:14:05 <andythenorth> we focus on the mobile and desktop views
15:14:13 <Wolf01> tablet and desktop are the same layout only with different sizes
15:14:33 <andythenorth> there are a limited range of 7” or so tablets that need a specific view, mostly in portrait orientation
15:14:51 <andythenorth> typically that’s the desktop view scaled, or with one column dropped
15:18:40 <Eddi|zuHause> so what's the problem here? check resolution, dpi and aspect ratio?
15:20:36 <Eddi|zuHause> or relation of font size to screen size and aspect ratio?
15:41:02 *** supermop has joined #openttd
15:44:57 <supermop> how's the land of hot modernism?
15:46:05 <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably not russia :p
15:47:00 <andythenorth> apparently you are making your own transport game? o_O
15:48:58 <supermop> hopefully all monorails
15:52:14 <Pikka> only one monorail, hence the name
15:52:33 <Pikka> it's very hot, supermop. Summer isn't ending this year.
15:53:38 <supermop> i wish i was in brisbane, wore a t shirt to work friday, but now it's back to dreary, rainy and 40 degrees
15:53:41 <Wolf01> we didn't had winter both this year and last year :|
15:53:45 <supermop> but not your 40, our 40
15:54:54 <supermop> headache of wedding planning made somewhat better by knowing it will be in a hot modernist land at least
15:55:27 <Eddi|zuHause> things start breaking around here above 42°C
16:00:37 <supermop> how often does it reach that there?
16:01:46 <Eddi|zuHause> nowadays, maybe once per summer
16:03:06 <supermop> sounds like an excuse for a day off!
16:03:58 <supermop> pikka, when the time comes, lmk if you want any modelling help (will leave skinning and rendering to you)
16:04:26 <supermop> happy to maybe untextured houses etc though
16:06:12 <supermop> andythenorth: not too discouraged by difficult customers?
16:06:25 <Pikka> for sure :) had an offer of some coding help today (which would be great)...
16:07:09 <supermop> you don't want my coding help for sure
16:07:36 <supermop> she's supposed to teach me python at some point though
16:07:41 <Pikka> I can tinker with code, but setting up a large project is completely beyond my experience or knowledge. :)
16:09:02 <supermop> knowing only the buzzwords that frustrate my partner, i say "use agile"
16:09:12 <supermop> and get a "scrum master"
16:15:49 <supermop> i feel like i should make more theoretically interesting digital assests out of the musings i've done on architecture and urbanism in various cities over the years
16:16:08 <supermop> making neat little houses for a game would be a start
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16:21:28 <andythenorth> Pikka “get a scrum master"
16:21:49 * andythenorth has multiple scrum masters
16:22:41 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, where exactly is the crontab of a user stored?
16:23:15 <Pikka> it sounds like a good idea, andythenorth and supermop. Probably need more scrum participants first.
16:23:30 <supermop> honestly, i am not sure what value the scrum master adds to the team?
16:25:00 <Eddi|zuHause> of course, the only way to make a successful game is to get a BIG project manager :p
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16:27:55 <V453000> sup Pikka, how are you? :)
16:28:02 <andythenorth> supermop have you worked in a team doing scrum-but- ?
16:28:52 <supermop> i've only worked in construction/design industries where we don't have such advance PM techniques
16:29:15 <Pikka> hi V, not bad. Job hunting and daydreaming as usual. :)
16:29:52 <V453000> any openttd stuff progress/plans? :
16:31:32 <andythenorth> (the ones we don’t add to ottd)
16:31:55 <Pikka> Oh, plenty of bad features. Not doing a remake of TTD (like Train Fever) for a start... something different.
16:33:40 <peter1138> andythenorth, realism!
16:33:55 <supermop> need that tattooed across my cheat
16:34:23 <Pikka> hooray for realism, peter1138
16:35:11 <supermop> "RUBBER TYRES : START FIRES"
16:35:16 <peter1138> also you gotta sit in each vehicle and manually drive them
16:35:21 <sim-al2> Soon: The only problem with realism in Monorail Fever(TM) is that everything tops out at 90 km/h
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16:36:29 <Wolf01> V453000, were you (your company) serious about the last friday news or it was an april fool?
16:38:04 <Pikka> too many realisms, supermop
16:38:39 <supermop> sim-al2: problem - straddle beam monorail inhibits drifting
16:41:05 <Wolf01> it's hard to guess sometimes, the spidertron was more suitable as a joke and instead it seem it will be added to a future update
16:43:14 <V453000> that is just because we realized our functional vision of the spidertron wasnt as complete as we thought
16:45:09 <Wolf01> about the mobile version, it would be really cool also if I prefer to pay for a game and not when playing a game, but I'm out because I'm on the Microsoft side :(
16:45:25 <V453000> mobile will probably never happen :P
16:45:48 <Wolf01> never say never, maybe a unity port someday
16:56:19 <andythenorth> Pikka: stay tuned for NotRoadTypes btw
16:56:24 <andythenorth> I think it will take about a year
16:56:52 <Pikka> let's just make a new game, it'll be faster ;)
16:57:03 <Pikka> this is tram wires / not wires?
16:58:07 <peter1138> step 1, no cc mapping
16:58:20 <andythenorth> Pikka: more like actual types of tram or road
16:58:28 <andythenorth> with all the compatibility shit you can imagine
16:58:37 <andythenorth> that I won’t use in my NotRoadTypes grf
16:58:47 <andythenorth> but some people can get busy on forums working out a label schema for
16:59:13 <Samu> openttd credits say u made rivers, andythenorth
16:59:53 <Samu> describe my arrangement of pictures
17:00:32 <Samu> draw more edges and corners
17:02:15 <Samu> the coding, however... no idea what to do at this point, I got stuck
17:02:24 <Samu> can't figure out how to code
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17:14:18 <Samu> crap, forgot to paste the 16 flat river tiles
17:14:43 <Samu> or apparently they're copied 16 times from just the same 1
17:16:15 <Samu> what are the 2 last columns for?
17:16:29 <Samu> they're equal to the first column
17:20:56 <Samu> the more I explore, the more I find out there's missing even more sprites
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17:23:43 <Wolf01> 4 shades of gray in a single app window are too much?
17:24:10 <Wolf01> I would put some red too, just to catch the eye
17:29:33 <Alberth> you know this openttd program? those guys use 256 colours of the rainbow all at the same time. Worse, recently, they expanded to millions of colours!
17:30:32 <Wolf01> ehe, it's a game, I have pictures too with millions of colours, but try to make the ottd gui with more colours
17:31:25 <Alberth> I think each of the colours of the gui has 7 or 8 colour shades, not sure if they are all used though
17:32:26 <Alberth> eg at the edges of the buttons
17:33:26 <Wolf01> that's to achieve the fake 3d effect, I'm doing flat
17:36:42 <Wolf01> I'm seeing that microsoft used a nice palette of colours on the default apps, maybe I'm not using too many colours
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17:38:44 <Samu> where are the corners or small corners being drawed (drawned, drawd, drew?) from
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17:42:39 <Alberth> drawn is correct afaik
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17:44:57 <supermop> andythenorth: drafting Iron Crane and Stag Beetle Schema
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17:49:27 <Hagbard> So, I have this: http://imgur.com/eFLNkhK Currently using version B, but constructing A is also possible. How can I use any of those to allow trains going paralell pass the crossing at the same time, without one of them having to stop?
17:51:26 <supermop> contrast to pony: rail slower but high capacity / "metro" shares trackage. high speed cannot share trackage
17:52:32 <supermop> smaller freight capacities, passenger either slow and capacious or fast and limited
17:55:05 <andythenorth> supermop: any particular realism? Or made up?
17:55:30 <supermop> but less hardcore than 2cc or Jpan set
17:56:15 <supermop> still more emu focused than pony roster, but not to the rivet counting degree of japan set
17:56:29 <andythenorth> Wolf01: in grey (or desaturated colour): main colour, shadow colour, highlight colour, alternative colour (for boxouts etc)
17:56:35 <supermop> just a trade off selection between 2-3 types per age
17:56:42 <andythenorth> + two shades of key colour (red, blue, pink etc)
17:58:44 <supermop> slight focus of urban transit
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18:00:43 <supermop> maybe starts with slow, cheap comprehensive freight and passenger network, but evolves toward separate freight, local, and express networks over time
18:01:08 <Wolf01> I used kuler (now adobe color) when I worked on the cms interface at work
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18:02:10 <supermop> crane is ih roster, stag beetle is termite roster
18:09:22 <supermop> how many steam engines does a typical ih roster have?
18:09:37 <supermop> i find it really hard to care about steam trains
18:10:54 <andythenorth> there’s no fixed number
18:11:09 <supermop> like 4 or or like 10?
18:11:21 <andythenorth> it’s better to think in terms of express, freight, small, mixed trafffic, jokers
18:11:29 <supermop> 1860s to 1950s is a long time
18:11:35 <andythenorth> express and freight you get an engine every 20-30 years
18:11:44 <andythenorth> branch line, mixed traffic, every 30-60 years
18:11:48 <supermop> but 20 seems like way too many for IH
18:12:16 <supermop> but i guess pre-war need to be interesting too
18:12:50 <Alberth> in some games I don't even get to post-war eras :)
18:13:03 * andythenorth finds 70 years is about enough in most games
18:13:29 <supermop> i always play with a few shitty tank engines then, never start early enough to afford shiny fast steam trains before diesel and electrics arrive
18:14:57 <supermop> 10 steams should be fine for pre-war asian games
18:15:39 <supermop> nothing new from 1860-1900?
18:18:45 <Samu> supermop: what am i suposed to be doing?
18:18:53 <Samu> I'm stopped, but I want to do something
18:20:33 <Samu> what are the tools to work with opengfx-v5935-source
18:27:14 <Alberth> make, c pre-processor, nml, perhaps gimp
18:27:37 <Alberth> it may also need a version control system, not sure
18:28:05 <Alberth> you know, the usual stuff that you have at a linux system
18:29:14 <Samu> installing gimp, i suppose i nee this
18:29:54 <Alberth> if "work with" includes changing graphics, you need a graphics editor too (gimp is one, but not the easiest one)
18:30:17 <Alberth> if you add images, you need a text editor
18:30:36 <Samu> i need to add images, that for sure
18:30:41 <Eddi|zuHause> "nothing new from 1860-1900"? that was like the most innovative time in the history of the steam engine...
18:31:00 <Alberth> you might just want to download the source, and try to build it. The system will complain about missing things :p
18:31:32 <supermop> Samu: what graphics do you need beyond whats in ogfx+ and what i drew?
18:31:48 <Samu> uhm... make the code use them
18:32:45 <Alberth> not sure how editing opengfx does that, tbh
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18:45:35 <Samu> what's the difference between ogfx+ and opengfx?
18:46:00 <Alberth> afaik first is a set of newgrfs, second is a baseset
18:46:36 <Samu> it's the baseset that needs editing
18:47:30 <Alberth> you may want to double check what each thing is
18:49:23 <Samu> truth is... i'm completely lost, what do i have to do first, the project seems too complex after all
18:49:36 <supermop> andythenorth: any gameplace use for a diesel that is introduced before the last steam?
18:52:26 <Samu> the newgrf works on top of baseset? the baseset is the "skeleton", the infrastructure, where the newgrfs may build upon?
18:53:33 <Samu> what's the relation baseset and openttd have?
18:54:26 <Samu> I ask too many questions, :(
18:55:01 <supermop> base set is like a recreation of the graphic files that came on the original TTD cd
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18:55:37 <andythenorth> supermop: diesel versus steam is irrelevant :)
18:55:49 <andythenorth> they have no gameplay difference
18:56:07 <Alberth> /me considers steam engine much more attractive
18:56:17 <Eddi|zuHause> steam is usually longer than diesel
18:56:36 <supermop> stylistically though, is there a niche somewhere in the 30s for something smaller/lighter/ etc
18:56:45 <andythenorth> eddi is right, there is sometimes a marginal capacity per tile advantage to diesels
18:57:38 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: OpenTTD doesn't do niches very well
18:57:46 <Samu> i don't recall original TTD having rivers
18:59:11 <andythenorth> hence ottd.grf or whatever it’s called
19:00:53 <Samu> sorry supermop, I can't do this. I have an idea of what's missing, but I don't quite get the whole picture, how openttd interacts with basesets with their extras
19:00:53 <supermop> Samu: doesnt matter to me, no need to apologize
19:01:46 <Samu> it was even my idea to start, i find myself stupid now that I can't push forward
19:01:51 <supermop> i just saw an opportunity to contribute some simple sprites, i'm not particularly invested in the feature
19:02:20 <andythenorth> Samu: give it a break for a bit
19:02:27 <andythenorth> sometimes I stop, turn irc off etc
19:02:35 <andythenorth> otherwise I’d rage quit when coding
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19:07:00 <Samu> supermop, what you have drawn were riverbanks. there's also river_water, as the game calls it, another row of tiles without stones on it. I just don't get how they would animate if only providing a static image
19:07:36 <Samu> i have too many questions and no certainty of anything
19:09:13 <Samu> then there's this mysteryous .xcf file, that I have no idea what it does
19:10:15 <Alberth> the Internet knows everything :)
19:13:11 <supermop> 4-5 diesels, 8 electrics, feels like way too many....
19:14:31 <supermop> is only one new locomotive per decade too boring?
19:15:42 <Samu> different sprites in a row cycling?
19:16:03 <supermop> the blue colors cycle
19:16:23 <Eddi|zuHause> new engine every 10 years is fine
19:17:25 <Samu> hm so it only needs 1 static image
19:19:41 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: what about 15-20?
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19:22:31 <Samu> the game doesn't make use of these river_water, except for the flat one, and even then... I'm not sure... this is the bigger problem I have. I'm never sure of anything, grr :(
19:34:24 <Eddi|zuHause> that depends on what audience you're trying to reach
19:34:41 <Wolf01> I like 12, it's divisible by 2, 3 and 4, really useful for colspan and it's a fair number of items for a grid layout which can be 1, 2, 3 or 4 columns...
19:34:42 <Eddi|zuHause> probably works, too
19:35:19 <supermop> more electrics and MUs than default game, much fewer than in "realistic" sets
19:35:44 <supermop> Wolf01: 12 locomotives?
19:36:17 <supermop> as is have 22 locomotives
19:36:25 <Eddi|zuHause> don't look at 10cc then :p
19:37:17 <Wolf01> and I still can't get the right display size :E
19:37:18 <supermop> which means adding enough MUs to make it slightly more MU focused than pony roster is way too many MUs
19:38:21 <supermop> 3 types of EMU, few generations each
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19:44:58 <Wolf01> what's better background colour theme: dark title and slighty lighter content or the inverse?
19:48:42 <Alberth> what should be more visible?
19:49:49 <Wolf01> title, the content is just an excerpt and to read it all you must click on the item
20:07:06 <Alberth> I'd make that lighter then
20:18:13 <Samu> does it really need to beMAX_COMPANIES -1?
20:18:38 <Samu> i'm currently working on max_no_competitors = 15 patch
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20:40:10 <frosch123> still looking for a new oil source?
20:41:11 <andythenorth> just don’t want to get into a forums nitpick about reality
20:43:35 <supermop> andythenorth: IH philosophically opposed to MUs longer than 2 segments per vehicle?
20:43:49 <andythenorth> metros are 1 tile
20:44:00 <andythenorth> railcars are single units that can be combined to arbitrary length
20:44:05 <frosch123> too bad, i though "whaling base" would be just the right industry for your norwegian fan :p
20:44:52 <andythenorth> back channel irc bitching instead of just talking in forums
20:44:53 <andythenorth> bad andythenorth
20:45:15 <frosch123> oh, i thought that's what all this channel is about
20:46:27 <supermop> i want a different approach to interesting MUs than 2cc set does
20:46:56 <supermop> the MU wagons are way too cheap relative to MU heads in that
20:47:03 <frosch123> irc bitching about forums, simuscape bitching about irc, forums bitching about simuscape
20:47:12 <frosch123> i thought that was ottd's rock-paper-scissors
20:47:52 <supermop> but building a train entirely of MUs is prohibitively expensive and provides no value
20:51:29 <andythenorth> it seems that wikipedia is wrong
20:53:05 <Alberth> "inspired" is different from "copied"
20:57:21 <supermop> andy, what about a 2 car unit, with only one cab?
20:57:51 <andythenorth> supermop: for railcar or metro?
20:58:31 <supermop> idea for Iron crane is that higher density emus run on regular rail
20:58:45 <supermop> high speed is segregated instead of metro
20:59:28 <andythenorth> if there’s a good gameplay rationale
21:00:02 <andythenorth> metro represent maximum (ok I made up the actual number) capacity per tile
21:00:34 <andythenorth> if it’s on regular rail, it would be a railcar, single unit
21:00:50 <andythenorth> build more units if you want a longer one
21:01:22 <andythenorth> high speed is unsolved, I wanted to do maglev, but the track sprites are ugly
21:01:28 <andythenorth> monorail is daft
21:01:34 <andythenorth> segregated normal rail....maybe
21:01:53 <supermop> well the idea is japanese narrow gauge
21:02:51 <andythenorth> I suspect that Dan might have half a roster in his head for Japan :)
21:02:55 <andythenorth> you should DM him
21:03:15 <supermop> so it has all the regular freight, and various types of passenger trains on the narrow gauge
21:03:29 <supermop> and then shinkansen is on SG
21:05:39 <andythenorth> Antelope is similar but standard gauge is heavy freight
21:06:04 <supermop> ideas for balanced monorail based on osaka
21:06:14 <supermop> introduced in 60s/70s
21:06:42 <supermop> trade offs in infrastructure costs etc
21:08:51 <supermop> monorail not fast though
21:10:08 <andythenorth> monorail ~= metro in that case
21:12:14 <V453000> I se andythenorth pondering
21:17:41 <supermop> the "metro" is just a higher density emu, as higher density and lower density share trackage
21:17:54 <supermop> monorail is exclusively high density and urban
21:27:41 <supermop> and no monorail locomotives
21:28:00 <supermop> just like 100-200 hp per car
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22:28:56 <supermop> apparently google can't find me a single photo of a pre-1980s tokyo monorail
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23:05:49 <supermop> draft scheme is 61 rail vehicles
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23:20:08 <supermop> up late andythenorth ?
23:30:50 <Wolf01> \o/ I got the grid items resize to window width when in one column... now I need to set the right sizes for the breakpoints
23:34:56 <supermop> 61 trains over 160 years is ok maybe?
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