IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-03-31
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00:20:05 <FLHerne> samu: Video seems to work pretty well
00:20:39 <FLHerne> I always get pretty unbearable performance when trying to screencap things :-(
00:21:31 <samu> i used bandicam to capture, then handbrake to compress it to a reduced size
00:22:07 <samu> but eh, what about the idea of terraforming rivers?
00:28:14 <Samu> the hardest part now is adding the missing sprites, isn't it?
00:29:35 <FLHerne> Ah, that's what I'm meant to be looking at :P
00:31:14 <FLHerne> The bit where you create a hump at 0:12 and particularly 0:14 looks rather odd
00:31:52 <Samu> there are no available graphics
00:32:26 <Samu> surprises the game doesn't complain about missing graphics
00:32:44 <FLHerne> What would the missing sprites be?
00:32:50 * FLHerne isn't really seeing it
00:34:06 <Samu> sec, let me find my picture
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00:35:19 <Samu> tiles 0, 3, 6, 9, 12 have sprites
00:35:49 <Samu> the other slope formations don't have
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00:38:21 <Samu> the others are: 1, 2, 4, 8, then 7, 11, 13, 14, then 5, 10, then 23, 27, 29, 30
00:39:06 <Samu> and I have no idea where to begin
00:40:49 <FLHerne> Where would those be used? You seem to have made it work very nicely with the ones that exist :-)
00:42:29 <Samu> let me investigate water_cmd.cpp
00:43:52 <Samu> static void DrawRiverWater(const TileInfo *ti)
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00:44:11 <Samu> i have a suspicion it this thing that draws the sprites
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02:29:35 <Compu> how do i change the soundfont openttd uses for midis in ubuntu? im using timidity afaik and i have a really nice soundfont i wanna use
03:03:44 <Sylf> It's probably not openttd issue.
03:04:15 <Sylf> See if you can configure timidity to use particular sound font, like in /etc/timidity/timidity.cfg
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05:09:53 <Sylf> yup, timidity soundfont works great after editing that cfg
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09:11:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure i answered that a few days ago already
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10:22:09 <degasus> Eddi|zuHause: wine 1.0 was the first one able to run in cygwin ;)
10:22:48 <Eddi|zuHause> but this is without cygwin. just natively running linux binaries
10:26:06 <Wolf01> plot twist: win 10 is ubuntu with a custom wine version and a theme
10:27:27 <Eddi|zuHause> well, this seems to be "just" console so far, i wonder if you can also run X and stuff
10:27:35 <Wolf01> btw, I really hope it will support all the base shell commands
10:30:14 <Wolf01> "But there are some imperfections still, especially around tty's" and "screen" doesn't work... just the main 2 things I use
10:31:18 <Wolf01> and I suspect the problem are with colorcodes in strings because the standard console doesn't support them
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13:28:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i think we're now back in the "embrace" phase. we all know how that goes on...
13:30:33 <Wolf01> heh, MS already owns a lot of technologies used on linux, I don't think that it will take long time
13:31:56 <Wolf01> and I just tried my app on the real device, it still hasn't catch fire, I'm expecting it to work well
13:32:32 <Wolf01> also I'll need to buy a developer license...
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15:49:33 <uij2> so i was replacing my trains with train X and then train X got discontinued now i'm trying to replace my trains with another model but it won't let me http://i.imgur.com/sLiOS2J.jpg
15:55:00 <planetmaker> uij2, there's a minimum cash limit which you must have before replacement can take place. Though honestly it looks like you should have enough
15:57:10 <uij2> it's not that they are not being replaced it just doesn't allow me to click to start replacing "Start Replacing Vehicles" is disabled
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16:29:52 <uij2> okay i found the problem. i was also replacing the new model with the discontinued model
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17:42:15 <_johannes> Alberth: I printed the estimates, however, somehow, they were all 0
17:44:27 <Alberth> definitely not too high thus :D
17:45:26 <Alberth> but degrading to Dijkstra algorithm isn't helping much in performance :p
17:45:54 <_johannes> having 0 as an estimate sounds wrong?
17:47:01 <Samu> I created a topic to consolidate all the info
17:47:11 <Samu> I just updated it right now
17:47:14 <Nathan1852> What is the best wayto build a 'museum'?
17:48:03 <Samu> how are the sprites going? :o
17:48:20 <Samu> or if you could help me do something about it, what shall I do?
17:49:42 <Alberth> _johannes: it means expansion in any direction is equally good, so it expands in all directions, instead of towards the end-goal only
17:50:52 <_johannes> I thought the estimate is the geometrical or manhattan distance or something like this
17:50:58 <_johannes> and that once can not be 0
17:56:53 <_johannes> Alberth: wait, maybe I did that one wrong ;)
18:03:46 <Alberth> if you used non-zero estimates, then something must be wrong indeed :)
18:04:16 <_johannes> ok Alberth I looked up wrong: the estimate is increasing until (and including) it reaches 81 from 87
18:04:31 <_johannes> but then, when it reaches 82 from 81, the estimate is lower
18:05:04 <Alberth> the sum is the important number :)
18:08:02 <_johannes> Alberth: sum = cost + estimate ?
18:08:57 <_johannes> in the code, there is "n.m_estimate = n.m_cost + d;"
18:09:05 <_johannes> which variable do you mean there?
18:09:12 <supermop> i haven't started yet, as still working this week on a hardware project, but my plan for this weekend is pretty simple:
18:09:44 <supermop> cut the existing sloped rivers in half and paste them back together
18:11:29 <Alberth> _johannes: cost + estimate, smallest sum is most promising to expand further
18:12:03 <_johannes> Alberth: so you'd like n.m_estimate + n.m_cost ?
18:12:18 <supermop> if i have time, add some rocks
18:12:22 <_johannes> which means 2 * n.m_cost + d ?
18:12:48 <Alberth> I don't know what m_cost or d is
18:13:21 <Alberth> cost = cost of path from start to where you are estimate = guess of cost you must make to reach end
18:13:45 <Alberth> where estimate <= real cost of that path
18:15:14 <Alberth> to be clear: where estimate <= real cost of that remaining path
18:16:20 <_johannes> Alberth: I get what you mean, but why do they say "n.m_estimate = n.m_cost + d" ?
18:16:37 <_johannes> it looks like what you call estimate is d here ?
18:18:59 <Alberth> sounds possible, you never need the estimate anymore after computing it, only the real cost and the sum, perhaps it re-uses the estimate variable
18:23:38 <Samu> alright, supermop, thanks. If you have any question or doubt, and you can't find me here, post in the topic, I'll be looking at it.
18:24:47 <_johannes> Alberth: if that's the case, then for the sum that you asked for, it's like I said:
18:24:52 <_johannes> it is increasing until (and including) it reaches 81 from 87
18:24:59 <_johannes> but then, when it reaches 82 from 81, the sum is lower
18:26:13 <Alberth> so it shouldn't expand 87
18:26:32 <_johannes> that's what I meant by including
18:26:41 <_johannes> from 81 to 87, it's still increasing
18:27:04 <_johannes> but from 82 to 81, the sum is lower
18:27:04 <Alberth> ah, 81 -> 82, the sum decreases
18:27:14 <Alberth> that should not happen
18:27:52 <_johannes> so I conclude that 81 only got visible to 82 after 87 had been expanded
18:30:39 <_johannes> what do you mean by "82"? It's the start node, I can not see it getting expanded
18:32:38 <_johannes> oh oh also, there's a bug in the image I have drawn, the node 81 does not get discovered in the beginning, 82->85 is the first
18:33:46 <Alberth> discovery isn't very important. You normally unfold all direct neighbours of a node, doesn't matter in which order
18:34:18 <_johannes> maybe, for the start nodes, only the non-turnaround-neighbours are discovered?
18:34:40 <_johannes> that would explain why it does not see 81 yet in the beginning
18:34:52 <Alberth> if 82 is the start, you'd unfold all direct neighbours of 82, then pick lowest sum of those, unfold its neighbours, ...
18:35:25 <_johannes> ok, but it did not pick 81, which had the lowest sum
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18:36:44 <_johannes> If I look at PfSetStartupNodes() , it looks very much like it ignores neighbours behind the train
18:36:50 <Alberth> if it's not reachable from 82, that's fine, but then you cannot use it as short cut either
18:37:51 <_johannes> the train can not reach it in the beginning without a turnaround
18:38:27 <_johannes> hmm maybe I need to think more about it
18:39:13 <Alberth> all paths are either there, or they are not there
18:39:45 <Alberth> if you don't do that consistently, I'd expect problems
18:40:07 <_johannes> well, I have not changed anything about yapf :P
18:40:27 <supermop> oh man zaha died this morning
18:41:11 <Alberth> _johannes: doesn't mean much, it's a complicated piece of software, it wouldn't be the first bug in it :)
18:43:02 <Eddi|zuHause> who or what is a zaha?
18:45:31 <supermop> she was a major inspiration to me to go into architecture when i was in high school, though my design thinking grew away from hers in university and subsequent years
18:45:47 <supermop> she still remains an important motivation
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19:04:48 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't sound like a person i would have come across befor
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19:08:29 <supermop> i guess not. most famous female architect, but architects in general aren't that well known among people who don't care about architecture
19:21:40 <Eddi|zuHause> if you'd point a gun at me and tell me to name an architect, i'd maybe say "Hundertwasser"
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19:45:46 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Commit by translators :: r27529 /trunk/src/lang (4 files in 2 dirs) (2016-03-31 19:45:35 +0200 )
19:45:47 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: -Update from Eints:
19:45:48 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: scottish gaelic: 3 changes by GunChleoc
19:45:49 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: frisian: 6 changes by BAJansen
19:45:50 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: spanish: 13 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
19:48:38 <andythenorth> but is it release? o_O
19:49:33 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not 1.4. yet
19:53:49 <Samu_> but I only got 1 monitor, I don't know what would happen on multiple monitors
20:09:00 <supermop> planetmaker: did you make the current ogfx river and rocks sprites?
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20:11:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i think that is unlikely
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20:18:41 <supermop> have a few minutes to hack at pixels over lunch and was hoping wouldnt ned to dig through the whole ogfx sources
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20:21:59 <Hewimp> Anyone found Train Bridge mod where can overpass anoter bridge ?
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20:26:17 <Alberth> I don't think it exists
20:26:52 <Alberth> and yeah , people are not always watching random persons entering the channel demanding an answer in 5 minutes
20:27:01 <Hewimp> bummer would think over pass be god idea
20:27:23 <Alberth> irc is a slow medium, expect to wait an hour or so
20:27:51 <Alberth> you'd need to change the source code afaik
20:27:57 * andythenorth is doing FIRS 2 credits
20:28:08 <andythenorth> and apologising pre-emptively for anyone I missed :o
20:28:47 <Alberth> thus defeating doing credits completely :p
20:29:00 <andythenorth> there is that yes
20:29:03 <Alberth> Hewimp: "mods" has no real meaning in OpenTTD
20:29:09 <Hewimp> found few bugs no idea who to tell :)
20:29:49 <Samu_> I am messing with the difficulty.max_no_competitors in the source code and put 15 there, instead of 14
20:30:00 <Samu_> tested it and.... it werks!
20:30:29 <Alberth> Hewimp: without indication where you found them, no way to point directions
20:31:04 <Samu_> the part that works is: game will always attempt to use all 15 company slots for AIs
20:31:04 <Hewimp> Download them all new to this
20:31:23 <Hewimp> just checking out what they do or break
20:31:44 <Hewimp> some defently add to the game
20:31:47 <Samu_> the part that breaks: AI/Game Script Settings window from main menu
20:32:06 <Hewimp> still no idea how to add them without making a new game every time
20:32:09 <Samu_> max no of competitors there is still only 14
20:32:33 <Samu_> it shows 15, if i configure it on the openttd.cfg first
20:32:45 <Alberth> Hewimp: a better strategy is to find nice ones, and use those, there is a lot of old stuff there
20:33:21 <Alberth> Hewimp: adding newgrfs voids warranty of sane results, restarting is the only safe way
20:33:35 <Hewimp> their great thanks to all that worked on them :)
20:33:54 <Hewimp> have to expect few flaws
20:35:10 <Hewimp> thanks to hlp got my map to hight map but can you make that a senero again ?
20:35:54 <Hewimp> so got my base map i drew :)
20:36:38 <Hewimp> still not shure how change the production without senerio.
20:36:44 <Alberth> you can only restart making a scenario from the height map, but that's not really want you'd want, in general
20:37:02 <Hewimp> i liked the map i drew :)
20:38:54 <Alberth> don't know what that means either
20:39:25 <Hewimp> Star wars Melium falcon
20:43:05 <Hewimp> so i can load a hight map why would taht be bad ?
20:43:10 <Alberth> yeah, so how is that related to production change?
20:43:37 <Hewimp> the starting stuff always statrs low
20:44:04 <Hewimp> if had one that change it to max would be much better
20:44:34 <Alberth> play with a different industry set?
20:44:59 <Alberth> has different characteristics
20:45:01 <Hewimp> dose taht change the Production ?
20:45:13 <Alberth> or use manual industries newgrf
20:45:32 <Hewimp> ya we were checking some out just needed a guide where what to what we got lost :)
20:45:41 <Alberth> nidustry set tends to change production, cargos, everything
20:46:12 <Alberth> that's why I added the industry chain window :p
20:46:12 <Hewimp> tryed taht no Idea how to get it to do anything
20:47:18 <Alberth> manual industries fixates production, I think it has a parameter to also allow changing production, but it's a long time since I played withit
20:47:44 <Hewimp> ok have to play around with it see how to get it to work
20:49:02 <Hewimp> sorry hit wrong button
20:50:16 <Hewimp> trying to find my map so toss on thumb drive for my son
21:02:43 <Hewimp> once we pick the Stuff we like w can try again
21:02:59 <Hewimp> had problem with him Join when we hit 4 Mb data
21:05:45 <Alberth> 2 players need about 1024x512
21:07:18 <Alberth> if your son is not too old, and you play coop with him 512x512 (normal single player) would work too
21:10:40 <andythenorth> my 6 year old seems to like toyland :(
21:11:18 <Alberth> hmm, chemicals transport over 4 tiles
21:12:22 <Alberth> hmm, that doesn't bring you to make new toyland industries?
21:13:11 <andythenorth> Alberth: are you hinting I need to fix proximity checks? :)
21:14:05 <Alberth> nah, just pondering whether there is any point in playing firs2 currently
21:14:43 <sim-al2> That extreme flowchart though
21:14:43 <Alberth> graphics and chains seem much improved tome
21:14:51 <supermop> andythenorth: motivation to draw brio sprites for toyland
21:15:35 <Alberth> sim-al2: you don't play "extreme" with a flowchart, you use a busy bee to tell you what to connect :)
21:16:21 <andythenorth> what Alberth said
21:16:40 <andythenorth> which economy are you using?
21:16:53 <andythenorth> the checks do exist, they’re just incomplete, and mostly derived from ‘extreme’
21:17:28 <andythenorth> yeah, unlikely I’ve set those correctly :P
21:18:26 <andythenorth> I have some family stuff going on, but I’ll patch when I can
21:18:45 <andythenorth> or you can, it’s ‘just’ a python prop on the Industry object
21:19:01 <andythenorth> and there is a method for getting prop values specific to an economy
21:19:17 <andythenorth> but it would need an nml switch adding to check economy economy
21:20:13 <Alberth> and there is an extreme short piece of road somewhere too :)
21:20:21 <Samu> The AI/Game script settings window needs some adjustings, maybe even an overhaul´
21:20:36 <Samu> I see now why you couldn't put 15 AI companies in there
21:20:40 <andythenorth> Alberth: well IRL, chemical plant is often next to copper refinery ;)
21:20:44 <andythenorth> you need PIPE grf
21:20:54 <Alberth> yep, was thinking that too :)
21:21:07 <Alberth> so maybe that's the answer :)
21:21:35 <andythenorth> your trains won’t be going round the mountain on that map eh?
21:21:52 <Samu> i have some ideas how to improve that window
21:21:53 <Alberth> Samu: I am gussing 2 slots are actually used for something else
21:22:27 <Alberth> but yeah, that window is less than optimal to say the least :)
21:23:08 <Samu> forcing slot 1 to always be Human is what I need to think about
21:23:48 <Alberth> you definitely want that, or you cannot log into the game to fix things as administrator
21:24:16 <Alberth> (I think, never tried that)
21:24:52 <Samu> problem is, there are 3 ways to start a game, 3 game modes or whatnot, whatever you call it
21:25:32 <Samu> then dedicated multiplayer and non-dedicated multiplayer
21:26:00 <Samu> this window is fine for single player
21:26:28 <Samu> for non-dedicated multiplayer, the host still goes to company 1
21:26:36 <Samu> but the host can go to spectator mode
21:26:37 <Alberth> close button is always lost with me
21:27:09 <Samu> then the always Human slot will turn into a possible AI slot
21:28:10 <Samu> must have to improve this, as the only AI slot that can be configured starts at slot 2
21:28:20 <Samu> even if slot 1 already has no human
21:28:49 <Samu> it would start a Random AI when the game tries to create Company 1 AI
21:29:54 <Samu> finally, the 3rd game mode, the dedicated server mode, will actually start with 0 human players
21:30:10 <Samu> slot 1 can't be configured
21:30:16 <Samu> it is starting a Random AI
21:30:35 <Samu> now, about the max_no_companies setting
21:30:49 <Samu> 14 is fine for single player mode
21:30:57 <Samu> but not for the other 2 modes
21:32:07 <Samu> I can configure slots 2-15, but in a dedicated multiplayer (and assuming no human ever joins), only the 14 companies will start, and their configurations are set from range 1-14
21:32:48 <Samu> not even from range 2-15
21:32:50 <Alberth> assume humans will join, save games gets run in different modes and exchanged
21:33:36 <Alberth> people prepare maps in other setups than where they are played
21:34:14 <Alberth> administrator needs to log in to fix an emergency
21:34:39 <Alberth> MP game gets saved, and continued in SP mode
21:34:46 <Alberth> it all, and more, happens
21:35:05 <Samu> I see :( single player games can't start as spectator
21:35:38 <Alberth> you also have a huge number of existing saves that should not break
21:36:18 <Alberth> but you only add more companies, so that may not be a problem
21:37:36 <Alberth> but so far I have not heard a convincing reason why there are not currently 15 companies
21:38:26 <Alberth> the guy that implemented the current system didn't pick the current limit out of a high hat, he thought about it, and decided you couldn't want more
21:39:59 <Alberth> if it was really as simple as changing a number, he would have done that too
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21:44:56 <Samu> let me save a game with 15 AIs
21:51:26 <Samu> uh oh... there's something terribly wrong when loading the savegame
21:52:41 <Samu> I entered a dedicated server with 15 AIs, as spectator, then i saved the game
21:53:02 <Samu> those 15 AIs were started via 'startai' x15 script
21:53:48 <Samu> now, when i load the savegame, I am getting completely different AIs taking over. It is not taking the configuration settings that were being used on the server
21:54:45 <Samu> I, as human, was put into company slot 1, which is AI controllable
21:56:57 <Samu> either the savegame or the loadgame is wrong
21:58:01 <andythenorth> so I should release FIRS tomorrow morning?
21:58:20 <Alberth> andythenorth: sure, why not?
21:58:25 <andythenorth> Alberth: are the industry conflicts unacceptable?
21:58:35 <andythenorth> April 1st is a fairly arbitrary date eh?
21:59:43 <Alberth> I find industries next to each other reduces the need to connect them a lot
21:59:52 <Alberth> but maybe it's just me
21:59:54 <andythenorth> doesn’t it just :)
22:04:22 <Alberth> even if they're technically not connected :p
22:13:50 <Wolf01> andy, did you read about the pf switch?
22:14:14 <Wolf01> (totally unrelated to the ottd pathfinder)
22:16:30 <andythenorth> the train guys are upset
22:18:00 <Wolf01> not only them, also some of my group
22:19:11 <andythenorth> stockpile the old ones, quick!
22:20:44 <Wolf01> heh, too bad the boxes are exactly the same
22:21:53 <andythenorth> it makes zero difference to me, I only use them for polarity reversal
22:22:03 <andythenorth> I could do the same by cutting the wires and rejoining
22:24:00 <andythenorth> this box thing I never understand
22:24:10 <andythenorth> I guess it’s a market, and people are free to buy what they want :)
22:28:03 <Wolf01> I have 2 chicken men to sell, I got them with the past 2 orders :P
22:28:17 <andythenorth> I have the red jet plane to sell
22:28:23 <andythenorth> and maybe a few other things
22:28:30 <andythenorth> enough technic and city already
22:30:08 <Wolf01> the easter promotional set is 6.50€, not so bad
22:31:42 <andythenorth> I sold another 4 Power Puller wheels :)
22:31:50 <andythenorth> £60, to a good home
22:32:12 <andythenorth> found another guy on ebay, £35 per wheel :O
22:35:50 <andythenorth> not necessarily selling at that price...
22:38:46 <Wolf01> I'm still too weird this evening, drove 70km to see an Escher exposition :P
22:49:59 * andythenorth wonders if FIRS needs a manual
22:50:01 <andythenorth> or gameplay guide
22:50:26 <Samu_> supermop: I dont understand what to look at
22:54:03 <Wolf01> grrr, I was writing a reply to him
22:55:52 <supermop> the river banks are drawn separately
22:56:22 <supermop> so i assume the code just composites on whatever bank a tile needs?
22:58:39 <supermop> and fills in the middle with water?
22:59:40 <Samu_> let me look at the function static void DrawRiverWater(const TileInfo *ti)
22:59:47 <Samu_> I think it is this one who draws
23:01:01 <supermop> there are several of those files tho
23:02:42 <Samu_> sorry, i'm not sure where to look for that
23:02:51 <Samu_> but I think it's somewhere in this
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23:23:02 <Samu_> so what you're telling me is that the sprites already exist, but the code is not there to display them?
23:23:17 <Samu_> and I only need to write the missing code?
23:23:35 <Samu_> crap, he's not in channel
23:28:09 <Samu_> okay, back to my other project
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23:29:57 <NGC3982> dbg: [net] getaddrinfo for hostname "f", port 5001, address family either IPv4 or IPv6 and socket type tcp failed: Name or service not known
23:30:15 <NGC3982> That is the error message i receive when i use 'openttd -D -c config.cfg'
23:30:30 <NGC3982> Where port is set to 5001, as the only altered post in the config file.
23:30:36 <NGC3982> Newly installed on a new system.
23:34:28 <Eddi|zuHause> you have a weird host line in your cfg?
23:35:05 <NGC3982> server_find_address was not empty.
23:35:30 <NGC3982> It works when removing the "f ="
23:35:55 <Eddi|zuHause> well, there you go.
23:35:57 <NGC3982> Although, i just installed the latest version on two different PC's running the same Ubuntu distribution, with the first PC running into this issue, and the other did not.
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23:50:43 <Samu_> guys, i have a problem, who can help me?
23:51:39 <Hewimp> Hello Back anyone find way to put Lights on Bridge so more 1 Train can use it ?
23:53:39 <Samu_> loading a savegame with AIs is causing issues
23:53:39 <Hewimp> think some ai Bugfed i see some crach when they attempt to start game
23:53:39 <Samu_> I saved a game with, lets say, 15 MogulAI's
23:53:39 <Samu_> when I load it back, I am getting all the MogulAIs being replaced by randomly chosen AIs
23:53:39 <glx> mogulAI not saving itself ?
23:54:23 <Samu_> I don't think it's a mogulAI issue, it was just an example
23:55:05 <Eddi|zuHause> no, there isn't a way to put signals on bridges
23:55:37 <Samu_> I am trying to reproduce this bug, and I can't seem to get repeatable results
23:55:47 <Eddi|zuHause> (unless you want to dig through poorly written patches on the development forum, or use one of the highly unstable patchpacks)
23:56:28 <glx> the easy way is to use smaller bridge and raised land
23:57:11 <Samu_> I start a dedicated server with its own config file, this config file has the 15 AI's set up
23:57:29 <Samu_> 15 MogulAIs for simplifying
23:57:43 <Samu_> the AI's are launched with 'startai' in the console
23:58:02 <Samu_> now, I launch OpenTTD as GUI
23:58:23 <Samu_> then I load the game i just saved, and
23:58:41 <Samu_> the mogulAI is being replaced by random AIs
continue to next day ⏵
