IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-03-21
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00:24:05 <Snail> I just compiled my set and I got OTTD quit after telling me this”
00:24:27 <Snail> “Would you be so kind not to load a NewGRF that makes the ‘query’ sprite a non-normal sprite?”
00:24:32 <Snail> what the heck does this mean?
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02:00:32 <sim-al2> Not much, internet is dropping out again
02:02:45 <drac_boy> being bit lazy here too..although I'm still trying to find some elusive volvo specs yet
02:08:15 <drac_boy> oh and btw I've been still looking for an online copy but would you believe that there was a steam excursion (the locomotive was a smaller mogul sized sort of thing .. not one of these big 4-8-4 everyone seem to want to watch) right on the corridor mainline itself... bit crazy how different things must had been back then :->
02:09:15 <drac_boy> of course old amtrak isn't same as new amtrak so mm yeah
02:10:31 * drac_boy thinks that was a bit like seeing steam showing up at King Cross in uk
02:10:37 <sim-al2> The old corridor was a bit short on services at the beginning
02:11:00 <sim-al2> Well, there are those Harry Potter trains...
02:18:59 <drac_boy> of course if you wanted to check the 1960-1970's photos in usa you'll likely eventually find many examples of unusual power replacements tho .. neverminding dead fresh-new diesels being taken over either by steam or old dirty freight roads
02:20:55 <sim-al2> Early Amtrak trains are really strange, because all the old equipment from the various railroads was just pooled without repainting
02:21:14 <drac_boy> mm actually..slight related, I recall one of my magazine had a typical branchline passenger train standing at station but the locomotive was shiny black from front to part of the cab then the rest of cab and tender were quite a bit grimed ... turns out the scheduled power had some issue so another locomotive was swiped off the ready track before the wipers had finished with it
02:22:05 <drac_boy> heh early amtrak also had that confusing "pointed-to-where" arrow as well .. no wonder they never really used arrows much on newer locomotives after that one :)
02:23:17 <drac_boy> and who can (seem modellers still keep talking about this even to today!) forget the "bloody nose" red paintup amtrak used for a while too?
02:25:42 <drac_boy> can I say "goddamn bleeding thing!" :P
02:28:38 <drac_boy> either way about japan steam .. I'm not sure why but there was once one of these express tender locomotive under full power hauling a complete emu set (had somewhat slanted cab)
02:29:48 <drac_boy> looked like that yeah I think
02:30:35 <sim-al2> That particular unit can be hauled around by a locomotive, or operate by itself in electrified areas
02:31:09 <drac_boy> hmm slight different but this reminds me of a topic I started in here some time ago re how some steam locomotives were initially designed for freight duty but found themself soon changed to express service instead and vice versa
02:32:33 <sim-al2> One of the steam services actually uses a set of modified DMUs, as it operates on a steep line and the locomotive is a fairly small type, so the DMUs power uphill
02:32:34 <drac_boy> especially when (on one railroad) a train came in late with steaming trouble so it was taken off and a freight locomotive planning to at least take it to end of route .. but as the photographer watched it left the station quite fast, and soon he found out it arrived on-time and a few days several of the class was reassigned to passenger pool straight away
02:33:49 <drac_boy> and of course the UP FEF was often on passenger trains but when bumped by diesels they found themself happy with moderate freight trains, not surprised tho as the design was meaning to be a dual-duty locomotive
02:34:12 <sim-al2> Some of the larger types that appeared later on, like the advanced 4-8-2s, could easily run both freight and passenger
02:35:46 <drac_boy> of course uk had a few of its own stories too
02:36:16 <drac_boy> like how else could Southern not care about running a 9F at very fast speeds (it had five heavy driver axles...!) with express trains for a while 0_0
02:36:19 <sim-al2> Of course, in unusual situations any locomotive can be found on trains it didn't normally run on
02:37:04 <drac_boy> or that a Mallard could be found working non-express freight trains at rare times? (sometimes unbraked fittings too)
02:37:48 <sim-al2> Seems like a good use :D
02:39:47 <drac_boy> well the 9F had these 5ft drivers and I think the counterbalance was just 'ok' .. plus theres the factor of that heavy siderod total weight
02:40:13 <drac_boy> but I dunno tbh .. I just know that BR eventually never even want them to run fast anymore after that one few years of express sting
02:41:39 <sim-al2> I've read that there were concerns about bearing overheating as well as general overstress of the rods
02:42:20 <drac_boy> btw it would appear these crazy-fast express stings actually came to more than 130kph 0_0
02:42:35 <drac_boy> I probably wouldn't want to take a 9F *that* fast heh
02:43:32 <drac_boy> there is one fast freight the Mallard did seeming get scheduled for quite a few many times tho....fish :)
02:43:48 <drac_boy> made some sense seeing that its almost a nonstop dock-to-city routing
02:44:30 <sim-al2> Yeah, sometimes weird workings are part of moving equipment to other areas that would otherwise be "deadheads"
02:45:23 <sim-al2> Like the British DMUs, working one or two wagons as they returned to their depot
02:45:44 <drac_boy> before the more modern bogie coaches theres many photos of the express-fitted fish vans being shunted right onto existing trains .. so you could have eg 4-2-0 followed by two vented vans then four 2-axle coaches
02:46:04 <drac_boy> I imagine sanity among other things eventually made fish cargo usually go on dedicated trains
02:46:21 <sim-al2> I think even milk wagons would be attached at times
02:46:55 <drac_boy> btw moving ... thats pretty much why there were sometimes the odd doubleheads ... may as well as save one path while we're at that :)
02:47:08 <sim-al2> As train weights increased and schedules tighten, those practices seem to go away
02:47:40 <drac_boy> schedules tighten .. you want know what uk did that I still don't really understand? heh (and they were the only one to even do this too apparently)
02:52:35 <drac_boy> slip coach .. as it was officially called
02:52:55 <drac_boy> usually either a lesser train picked them up or the branchline service (think Duck 0-6-0T) moved them onward off-route
02:54:01 <sim-al2> How did they disconnect the hook? It seems like a crewman would have to clamber along the side...
02:54:48 <drac_boy> the reasons usually was a mixed bag.. it could be either to keep a really short schedule for the main stations and/or it was to start with a heavy train but cut off the excessive weight before hitting the later-on-routing-map hill grades
02:55:47 <drac_boy> good question, I dunno .. I just know the slipcoach had their own smaller brake office as they needed a separate man to manner the manual brakes to stop the coach by the platform
02:56:08 <sim-al2> It's a bit unfortunate for passengers who want to travel from that station
02:56:32 <sim-al2> Also, not exactly a low risk manuever
02:57:26 <drac_boy> for the latter it could be eg the locomotive could handle 720 the first half but only 600 for the second part so if theres major enough station dropoffs before middle point then thats where the slipcoaches were used apparently
02:57:49 <drac_boy> yeah theres at least one LNER example of slipcoaches cutting off but then slamming into the very train itself :-s
02:58:21 <sim-al2> The non-continuous braked trains seem to have always had multiple brake carriages, since the trains didn't have corridors either
02:59:56 <sim-al2> Seems a little less dangerous when you consider that the coaches have just as much braking power as they did in the train anyway...
03:01:31 <drac_boy> btw I'm not sure how long it lasted for (can't recall if its even still there on any modern ones) but the usa coaches always had an inside handbrake wheel just between the platform door and vestibule inside-door
03:01:57 <sim-al2> Wikipedia article says most services stopped using it by the 30's, although the last Western drop was performed in 1960
03:01:57 <drac_boy> so in theory even if someone closed the cocks and cut out the emergency air tank .. you could still stop the coach with the manual/chain brakes
03:02:28 <sim-al2> Yeah, these coaches almost certainly didn't even have air or vaccum
03:03:04 <sim-al2> Only a few trains had continuous brakes even up to the 1880's
03:03:42 <sim-al2> Naturally, that led to a few accidents where it would have taken more than a mile to stop from 45 mph
03:03:47 <drac_boy> actually I'm talking about 1950's wagons
03:04:10 <sim-al2> Oh, yeah, I'm impressed the British allowed that for so long
03:04:21 <drac_boy> the same kind of handwheel you see on top of old wooden boxcars ... it was still there inside the vestibule area on usa coaches .. not sure if modern ones still have it or its been removed away with
03:05:02 <sim-al2> All equipment that I know of has the handbrake accessible from the vestibule or end of the car on EMUs
03:05:53 <sim-al2> It's required, since the air will leak off after a few hours
03:07:27 <sim-al2> Some of the modern equipment have large handles instead, but with a similar mechanism
03:07:47 <drac_boy> btw I almost forgot...you and I were mentioning about vacuum vs air brakes ...
03:09:04 <drac_boy> well as I recall some small railroads in usa (makes sense seeing they have a very short rooster list to deal with among other things .. not to mention if their lien is detached from any networks too) pretty much took some liberty with running higher-than-normal line pressure for faster recharge/discharge rate
03:09:40 <drac_boy> it sometimes could result in more vavles/seals blowing out over time but the tradeoff was apparently worth it
03:11:52 <drac_boy> rio grande (or was it during the d&rgw era? I can't recall now) did the same ... talk about mountain brakes :->
03:16:54 <drac_boy> oh...geeze..after ten already :-s sorry sim-a12 going sleep now .. have fun with whatever other non-trainchat things you had tonight anyhow :p
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07:32:56 <Supercheese> @seen andythenorth
07:32:56 <DorpsGek> Supercheese: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 11 hours, 18 minutes, and 13 seconds ago: <andythenorth> DanMacK: o/
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13:31:30 <Snail> hi guys… I posted this on the forums, but I’m asking you here as well since I’m really clueless
13:32:04 <Snail> yesterday I was testing my set, and OTTD gave me a very helpful message… it quit after telling me, “Would you be so kind not to load a NewGRF that makes the ‘query’ sprite a non-normal sprite?”
13:32:16 <Snail> and I’m totally clueless as to what this means
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13:51:51 <Flygon_> Sounds like the GRF loaded a sprite it shouldn't have
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13:54:44 <planetmaker> he sets property on a normal GUI sprite which it should not have
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13:57:42 <V453000> Snail: [13:54] <@planetmaker> he sets property on a normal GUI sprite which it should not have
13:58:31 <Snail> The thing is, my set is not even touching the GUI
13:58:32 <planetmaker> OpenTTD expects a normal sprite but gets a recolour sprite or font sprite
13:59:37 <Snail> But what does it have to do with the query sprite?
14:00:16 <planetmaker> not much except that it's the 1st normal sprite, thus the fallback sprite for failed sprite requests
14:00:53 <planetmaker> thus you see it for instances for broken sprite layouts where you return an invalid sprite number
14:02:40 <Snail> Ok... The message could have been more helpful then
14:04:12 <planetmaker> I don't know the call path. May well be that it's the first being overwritten, if you blunder with recolour sprites.
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14:25:48 <planetmaker> Snail, if you want more than superficial information, that's why we have the debug levels...
14:26:14 <planetmaker> then OpenTTD will tell you exactly which sprite it refers to.
14:27:15 <Snail> Oh that sounds great. How can I access those debug levels?
14:28:12 <planetmaker> Snail, also, looking more at the code: the warning is 100% acurate concerning the sprite you try to modify...
14:28:32 <planetmaker> will tell you which debug facilities. Probably misc or sprite or so
14:30:49 <planetmaker> driver, grf, map, misc, net, sprite, oldloader, npf, yapf, freetype, script, sl, gamelog, desync, console
14:30:49 <Snail> So I just run openttd -h in the terminal, then try to start a game with my newGRF, and then when the game crashes, it will display a message with the sprite number?
14:30:55 <planetmaker> so probably 'sprite' :)
14:31:17 <planetmaker> Snail, no, that gives you the help which will tell you how to enable the proper debugging
14:31:50 <planetmaker> and you will need a proper console to follow openttd's output... so on windoze you might first need to convert it to a console programme... no clue about that
14:32:36 <planetmaker> I can look it up in my console. or you can in yours. I prefer the latter :D
14:33:01 <planetmaker> you do have a proper console shipped out-of box
14:33:24 <Snail> I usually use the Terminal
14:36:02 <Snail> So I start with openttd -h, activate the sprite debugger, then start OTTD from the console, and see the output when the game crashes
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14:41:38 <planetmaker> activating the debug output is part of starting openttd. openttd -h only shows you the help how you might do that...
14:42:38 <planetmaker> ./openttd -d sprite=6
14:42:53 <planetmaker> tbh, I didn't think I had to read that for you
14:43:58 <planetmaker> your questioning does not make me believe you actually *do* use OSX' console at all...
14:44:02 <Snail> I'm not on my computer now... That's why
14:44:59 <Snail> I use the Terminal to compile OTTD and my trainset. But I don't have access to it now
14:46:47 <Snail> But thanks for your help, I'll try it out later today
14:47:21 <planetmaker> tell that earlier and I don't have to assume that you're unable to follow simplest instructions...
14:47:54 <planetmaker> and I would have given you a more concise answer as take-away
14:48:30 <planetmaker> thanks for wasting my time with that omission :S
14:53:33 <Snail> If ottd's error message had been more helpful (like, saying that something was wrong with a sprite and suggesting to start OTTD in debug mode) I would have probably done it myself without asking here
14:53:42 <Snail> But anyway, again, thanks for your help
14:55:42 <Ketsuban> That's kind of the problem. There is no "debug mode" - there's switching on additional debugging information. If the message had said "increase sprite debug information for more detailed help" you'd have come here and asked how to increase sprite debug information, and we're right back to square one. The fundamental fault is you didn't mention not being at your normal computer.
14:57:27 <Ketsuban> ... that was a little harsher than I intended.
15:00:08 <Snail> Not necessarily.. I would have probably browsed the wiki for info about how to get more debug info. I might have been able to do it myself
15:00:59 <Snail> Anyway my suggestion is to OTTD devs is to change that message to make it more helpful. Then it's your decision to do it or not :)
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15:11:46 <planetmaker> snail: the message is 100% accurate
15:12:35 <planetmaker> so why change when it describes what happens?
15:14:35 <Snail> Maybe it's accurate technically, but it leaves people clueless.. I have no idea why the "query" sprite becomes "non-normal"... Then it suggests to look at the readme, and there, there is no reference to this "query" sprite
15:14:51 <Snail> So the average user would not know how to proceed
15:30:45 <supermop> i wonder if there are any decent gpl conveyor belt sprites around
15:31:56 <Eddi|zuHause> FIRS and ISR have conveyor belts, maybe some objects as well
15:33:08 <supermop> can a railtype change it's default station sprite like with its depot?
15:33:42 <Eddi|zuHause> stations are complicated...
15:34:12 <Eddi|zuHause> but it should be possible
15:37:45 <supermop> if pipe is gpl could hack together a belt system fairly quickly
15:43:15 <V453000> supermop: what is so bad about drawing the graphics? :P
15:46:55 <supermop> hard do do surreptitiously at work, i'd probably also get sidetracked and spend weeks on it, and i might no want to draw them in a style others like
15:49:54 <V453000> who gives a shit if others like? :D
15:53:56 <V453000> nobody will like my new train set either
15:54:02 <V453000> but I enjoy making it
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16:40:13 <Wolf01> what kind of layout would be better for an universal app?
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17:00:10 <Rubidium> frosch123: good evening (or good afternoon?)
17:04:56 <V453000> did frog leave deutschland_
17:08:02 <frosch123> Every second tourist seems to be german
17:08:28 <frosch123> I expected way more chinese
17:08:54 <V453000> wtf country did you get yourself into_
17:17:50 <V453000> tortoises are fine if they got some hg stuff
17:18:51 <frosch123> And durians, if you want to know about fruits and buildings
17:19:12 <V453000> ah that explains shit
17:19:21 <V453000> so durians arent flooding in germany
17:21:14 <frosch123> I bought that durian flavored chocolate, just out of interest (i was aware about the reputation)
17:22:18 <frosch123> It smelled terrible as expected from the fruit, but even in chocolate form
17:23:08 <frosch123> The taste was acceptible, but the next burp was just like the smell again
17:23:47 <frosch123> So i decided to leave it with one piece...
17:24:49 <frosch123> Then i put it somewhat closed into the fridge with the intention to bring it back home and force everyone to take a piece as well
17:25:41 <frosch123> But the next morning the fridge smelled so bad that i worried getting kicked out of the hotel:p
17:26:19 <frosch123> So sadly i threw it into a public trash basket (outside the hotel)
17:26:36 <frosch123> No durian for you:)
17:28:24 <frosch123> The first 3 are correct
17:28:59 <frosch123> I have not seen the durian one in any mrt
17:30:38 <Rubidium> so, smoking costs $6000? (flammable goods + smoking)
17:36:13 <frosch123> To compete with sydney
17:39:47 <frosch123> Rubidium: the security personel everywhere is bored nevertheless
17:40:26 <frosch123> Esp in the morning some seem to take a nap ;)
17:40:59 <frosch123> The mrt is interesting though
17:41:27 <frosch123> Driverless, and all platforms have double doors
17:42:13 <frosch123> That is the platfoms have glass walls and doors at the tracks
17:42:34 <frosch123> Which align and open with the train doors
17:43:05 <frosch123> Quite hard to jump in front of a train
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18:29:46 <supermop> need some sample of dos pallet here
18:30:48 <Alberth> pallets eh? palette would be easier :)
18:35:00 <Alberth> ah, thanks, was also looking for that :)
18:36:00 <Alberth> :O nice pallets, they even look DOSy :)
18:46:15 <supermop> can a railtype override bridge graphics?
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19:18:15 <supermop> why did i assume that sides of a tile would be 22.5 degrees
19:24:31 <Alberth> just do 2 horizontal, 1 up/down :)
19:26:53 <supermop> unless i have lost my mind i get 26.6 degrees drawing that then measuring
19:30:50 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc arctan(1/2)
19:30:50 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Error: 'arctan' is not a defined function.
19:30:55 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.463647609001
19:31:01 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc atan(1/2)*180/pi
19:31:01 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 26.5650511771
19:31:09 <Eddi|zuHause> that looks right
19:34:54 <supermop> why did i think it was 45/2
19:35:42 <Alberth> thinking in the wrong projection :)
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19:41:28 <supermop> could make the conveyors covered to tie into isr
19:45:44 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27525 trunk/src/lang/latin.txt (2016-03-21 19:45:36 +0100 )
19:45:46 <DorpsGek> latin: 18 changes by Supercheese
19:51:40 <supermop> workstation only has 8gb ram -_-
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22:24:39 <Wolf01> guess what... I think I'll go to sleep
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23:04:25 <Birko> Hi everyone, how can I use AITestMode() for test if couple of tiles are possible to raise?
23:20:38 <glx> Birko: you just instanciate an AITestMode object, do the test, then destroy the object to return to non test mode
23:24:00 <Birko> I need some info from that test mode. So if I make a local variable after an instance of AITestMode object, then I destroy AITestMode object, will be that local variable accessible?
23:25:31 <glx> changing the build mode doesn't touch the scope
23:29:32 <Birko> and AIExecMode is opposite to AITestMode? Should I after destroying AITestMode maka an instance of AIExecMode?
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