IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-03-16
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00:46:41 <drac_boy> hi mr.parttime-trainnut?
00:46:47 <drac_boy> heh sorry I dunno why I'm liking to say that
00:53:22 <drac_boy> hmm *bonks a harmless tumbleweed off flygon's head for some reason* :->
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01:04:36 <drac_boy> btw flygon and sim-a12 about big gauges I almost forgot about it but even if it never got to exist in real scale (that is as a commercial route you know what I mean) its still interesting to see what hilter's people had been thinking http://www.dumjahn.de/titelabb-gross/0005318.jpg
01:05:09 <drac_boy> basically a super-broad gauge yep 0_0 .. not sure how ineffective the massively large-sized steam boilers would had been tho (but at least diesel or electric makes reasonable sense)
01:06:07 <drac_boy> (for anyone here: the black steam locomotive is normal gauge for comparison sake)
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01:12:17 <sim-al2> Like many other plans of the time, I don't think they were particularly well thought out
01:13:20 <sim-al2> It feels a lot like the 50's/60's future gazing, but with even more propaganda aspects
01:13:57 <drac_boy> yeah I think the problem of metal stress would also had probably came into play if not the issue with production of such large metal pieces during wartime
01:14:06 <Flygon> drac_boy: Wasn't that 3m gauge?
01:14:18 <sim-al2> Also, that crew door is like 10+ feet off the ground. I think this was an engineer-free zone
01:14:43 <drac_boy> btw have you seen the scanlets for old Popular Science magazines and the like? they always have these silly spaceship-styled trains (and often on some fictional one-rail setup that might not work in real life either)
01:15:07 <sim-al2> Yeah, there's no way they could have afforded to build that massive infrastructure
01:16:04 <Flygon> iirc, the idea behind 3m gauge was so they could drive military equipment between the rails
01:16:24 <Flygon> The engineers involved wanted two 1435mm tracks instead, due to being more servicable
01:16:39 <Flygon> I think they were going for two bogies side-by-side
01:16:43 <sim-al2> I wonder how much damage those future train visions actually did, since the ones that did get built tended to not work very well. Meanwhile, the European countries and others spent less time on design fads
01:17:49 <sim-al2> Building tunnels and bridges to fit those massive things would have been a nightmare
01:19:52 <drac_boy> btw I do recall there was one real case of rather-broad gauges ... it was some sort of funicular-like system for lifting a boat sideway between two extreme elevation differences
01:20:17 <drac_boy> not sure I recall what the gauge were or how these few special wagons were eventually made
01:21:09 <drac_boy> maybe if I could recall more details I'll be able to find it (not these stupid cheap "home system" little rails to lift their 20hp boats out of the lake with)
01:25:54 <drac_boy> (it made sense after all..considering that having the hull (or body of water as wide as the hull itself either way) held by a wide gauge probably kept it easily stable the entire time
01:27:12 <sim-al2> They certainly help save money over, say, massive lock complexes
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01:27:56 <drac_boy> yeah locks probably are reasonable for if its only 2-3 doors ... or spread out over a rather long distance ... but lifts is best if you have a lot of rise in short distance
01:28:04 <drac_boy> thats what I think anyway, you? ^
01:29:37 <sim-al2> Yeah, I don't know of too many systems that don't cover a signifcant elevation change, a funicular of that scale is a pretty significant investment
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01:35:26 <drac_boy> oh I finally found something, apparently its 'canal plane' not 'boat lift' I should had keyworded the first time around https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canal_inclined_plane ... the first photo looks for sure like a very wide gauge .. the second photo's page link quotes 3.27m gauge and it looks like the gauge was made to align with the side supports on the cradles themself which makes sense
01:35:54 <drac_boy> so there we go .. its wider than russia's railroad gauge .. even if its not exactly a "train kind of railroad" itself in this sense
01:37:49 <Flygon> <sim-al2> I wonder how much damage those future train visions actually did, since the ones that did get built tended to not work very well. Meanwhile, the European countries and others spent less time on design fads
01:37:59 <Flygon> Australia never had the time to go for any such stuff
01:38:10 <Flygon> The closest we got was some kickass Streamliners
01:38:21 <Flygon> Like New South Wales's 38xx actually resembling a Shinkansen
01:39:17 <drac_boy> flygon heh .. streamliner and you being aussie .. guess what one of my favorite steam locomotive somehow is? :P (hint: it was close to where you live heh)
01:40:09 <Flygon> xP I know of the Spirit of Progress, drac_boy
01:40:29 <Flygon> Sooo many Americans think it's a Diesel when they first see it
01:40:37 <Flygon> So... erm, VR certainly did their job well xP
01:40:41 <Flygon> Anyway, I gotta brb, dishes time
01:41:28 <sim-al2> Russian gauge isn't really all that much wider, 1520 mm vs 1435 mm (or 5 ft vs 4 ft 8.5 in )
01:42:10 <sim-al2> But yeah, heavy duty rails, like those for cranes and other industrial facilities had vastly wider spacing
01:42:19 <drac_boy> flygon let me give you a better hint: it had a slight inward slanted nose (alike to that Baldwin Sharknose diesel in usa not surprisingly) ... and was quoted as "has power under the belt" regarding working on express routes with some grades
01:52:44 <drac_boy> sorry have to go for now but see you another time mr.dish flygon :)
01:52:53 <drac_boy> and bye sim-train :p hehe
02:05:28 <Flygon> A shame AN company got dismantled
02:05:38 <Flygon> The AN-Class loco could've been nice for express pax
02:11:07 <sim-al2> Geared decently high, I wonder why, since they were mostly freight
02:13:25 <sim-al2> 150 km/h, vs the 115 km/h or so of most modern freight types in Oz
02:18:10 <Flygon> I suspect they miiiight've wanted to use them on pax
02:18:13 <Flygon> But I truly don't know
02:18:26 <Flygon> With the high gearing tho, they'd be useful for MODERN V/Line pax >_>
02:18:30 <Flygon> But, they're too old now
02:18:53 <Flygon> V/Line really would benefit from extra locos as an interum until they get more VLocities
02:19:06 <sim-al2> Yeah, I was just reading, apparently the high gearing of the EL class was because they were intended for express working, perhaps they felt the AN had enough TE even with the high gearing
02:20:01 <sim-al2> You can see the limits of the lightweight traction motors like the GE 761 in the EL Class though, compared to the 752 that was dominant in North America
02:40:19 <Flygon> sim-al2: Australian, in general, either way
02:40:25 <Flygon> Tends to have locos capping out @ 115km/h
02:40:39 <Flygon> Most of our tracks never worked well for High Speed working
02:41:00 <Flygon> Even if, especially in the steam era, the machines were way more than capble of blowing the speed limit
02:41:16 <Flygon> Like, with VR's Spirit of Progress/S-Class express passengers
02:41:32 <Flygon> They were only meant to cap out at 115km/h, and enforced by paper recorder
02:41:44 <Flygon> Cue the rare occassions where the recorder ran out of paper...
02:42:34 <Flygon> Going by drivers reading from their own speedometer, and this is largely a 'reportedly' thing, because, obviously, the recorder wasn't exactly recording, they would regulary blow 150km/h in revenue service if they could get away with it >_>
02:42:58 <Flygon> And, apperantly, didn't push faster, because they didn't want to be seen as arriving conspicuously early at stations...
02:47:31 <Flygon> It's a shame we'll never find out if they could beat the 38xx
02:47:55 <Flygon> They all got scrapped, and the closest relatives are... not really close enough
02:51:40 <Flygon> (basically, the H-Class aka. Heavy Harry would need both heavy restoration, and, even then, it's driving wheels are actually smaller. It would never give a true representation of top speed)
02:52:16 <Flygon> (the R-Class has the driving wheel size, and is a newer design, but it's not really as powerful... but it is certainly the most available class to actually try a speed trial on)
02:56:14 <sim-al2> Compared to the streamliners appearing before
02:56:18 <Flygon> Still, there is a few things I want to note
02:56:24 <Flygon> In the 90s, and early 00s
02:56:34 <Flygon> It actually got used for mainline services, in place of Diesel locos
02:56:38 <Flygon> 40 years after it was build
02:57:08 <Flygon> 2. They're actually quite powerful, and can hold an N-Class locomotive's schedule
03:00:53 <Flygon> 3. When WCR added modifications to several R-Classes in the late 90s, the output from the chimeny was powerful enough to actually blast holes in 1850s brickwork when they went through some Bendigo line tunnels... @_______@
03:01:11 <sim-al2> That sounds expensive...
03:01:52 <Flygon> Yeah, that's why the modifications got removed later on
03:02:00 <Flygon> They were mantainence intensive
03:02:49 <Flygon> Sadly, due to the fact that they need a human shoveler, they can't actually act as a Slave to another Steam or Diesel loco
03:03:39 <Flygon> Would have been very interesting to see the H-Class fitted with DMU controls, that can also send vital Steam related information to the other locos... the damn thing is powerful enough to outclass every other Australian loco until the 1990s >_>
03:05:51 <sim-al2> Wow, averaging 51mph with six stops over 166mi. Not bad...
03:06:26 <Flygon> It'd be higher if there wasn't a speed limit :3
03:07:01 <sim-al2> No, the WCR R-class schedule
03:08:14 <Flygon> Yeah, it's the same as the Diesel schedule
03:08:33 <Flygon> They would sometimes run with a Diesel behind the Steam Loco for low end acceleration, though
03:08:55 <sim-al2> Would the services always be double-headed?
03:09:06 <Flygon> But I think that only happened if they either needed to transfer the Diesel locomotive (and cbf doing it light loco), or if the consist was particulary long
03:09:15 <Flygon> A lot were just the 'Super' R-Class alone
03:15:00 <Flygon> Ooh, yeah, they were Oil Burning... I suppose they could have operated as DMU slaves if properly modified
03:15:10 <Flygon> Though, by that point, it's more of an SMU+DMU :U
03:15:34 <sim-al2> Really needs someone to watch the boiler though, just to make sure the water, etc. are in limits
03:15:42 <Flygon> Yeah, hence the modifications
03:15:52 <Flygon> You'd need that data relayed to the lead Diesel or Steam loco somehow
03:15:58 <Flygon> With computers, nowadays, you can...
03:16:04 <Flygon> But in the 50s? I wouldn't want to try
03:16:28 <Flygon> ...why is one of these passenger runs in the video triple headed
03:16:36 <Flygon> (An R-Class, and two T-Class Diesels...)
03:17:00 <sim-al2> The AAR MU system used on tons and tons of locomotives worldwide has an engine alarm bell, but nothing to really transmit other data
03:17:18 <Flygon> (T-Class, aka. the most unkillable Diesel locomotive in Australian history)
03:19:31 <Flygon> Huh, a few of the Diesels in the video are either running in idle, or turned off completely
03:19:34 <sim-al2> Hmmm, isn't the max speed on the T-class only 100 km/h? The second train seems to be going at least that fast
03:20:49 <Flygon> If the T-Classes are turned on, they might just be on idle
03:21:11 <Flygon> However, as with everything VR related... the top speeds are merely a suggestion
03:23:18 <sim-al2> Judging by how many old locomotives are running around even now, it seems to be more of a supply problem
03:23:43 <sim-al2> Also, almost no wheelslip control
03:24:40 <sim-al2> No sand does complicate things too
03:24:47 <Flygon> It would have almost been easier to ring up V/Line and ask them to send over an N-Class locomotive... but they'd never have the budget for that
03:25:05 <Flygon> It's literally cheaper to ditch the current trip, and reverse all the way back to somewhere for repairs
03:25:37 <sim-al2> THe variety of locomotives running for the various groups is cool, but it doesn't seem terribly efficient at times
03:25:53 <Flygon> Oooh, that's humiliating. It got overtaken by a VLo going 160...
03:26:07 <Flygon> Hell, even a 3-Class VLo with transition couplers could've saved the train
03:26:17 <sim-al2> Well, it is a freight train
03:26:31 <sim-al2> It's really bad when passenger trains are being overtaken by freight trains
03:27:20 <Flygon> Suburban trains get overtaken by freight easily here
03:28:03 <sim-al2> Fair enough, Amtrak had problems with various railroad's dispatch screwing them over
03:29:12 <Flygon> Oh man, the comments...
03:29:28 <Flygon> They have a point. Heavy Harry could very well have likely hauled the entire load lonesome @_@
03:29:49 <sim-al2> If it could start the train...
03:30:07 <Flygon> I mean, you have multiple consecutive normal punches with the 1000hp Diesel locos...
03:30:12 <Flygon> And then you have the One Punch
03:30:29 <Flygon> But, yeah. The situation here really hasn't improved.
03:46:37 <Supercheese> some clearly-TTD inspired stuff
04:01:00 <sim-al2> I mean even in just terms of weight on drivers, that consist should have much greater starting TE, and it still can't do it
04:05:37 <Flygon> Yeah, the state of freght here's a mess
04:06:49 <sim-al2> Stealing some of those new GE and EMD -based types from the north might help :p
04:07:18 <Flygon> Victoria needs to SGize already
04:07:23 <Flygon> Then we can properly share shit with NSW
04:07:53 <sim-al2> I imagine getting some bogies suitable to BG would be much cheaper in the short-term
04:08:15 <Flygon> But there's still masive beaurocratic issues
04:08:59 <Flygon> Main issue being that nobody has $$$
04:09:07 <Flygon> And the Government's hopelessly ineffectual
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09:55:52 <degasus> damn guys, just because of you, only 4 hours sleep per day isn't funny....
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10:33:36 <degasus> by the way, is there a way to automatically replace trains with more train engines? eg I want to replace two Lev2 per train with a single Lev4
10:34:41 <degasus> or a single Lev2 with two of the same kind :D
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11:39:50 <Flygon> This has to be the most requested OTTD feature
11:47:20 <degasus> oh, haven't seen this one on the common requested features. Likely I've just missed it ...
11:55:01 <V453000> using a train set which makes all trains equal length fixes it
11:56:14 <degasus> I'm more asking about supporting multi engine trains. eg with very long trains, I may want to use 3 instead of 2 engines
11:56:40 <V453000> I understand, but from what I heard (I am not a programmer myself), the feature is a big pain to implement
11:56:54 <V453000> so it is better to just use train sets which work properly as they are
11:57:33 <V453000> for example if all of the engines are 1 tile long in total, you can have a variety of "normal" and dual headed trains easily
11:58:14 <degasus> yeah, the separation of "engine" and carriages doesn't sound trivial
11:58:31 <V453000> in general it leads to some solution like "train patterns"or whatnot
11:58:51 <degasus> maybe go up the big way, don't replace the engine, replace the train. So train configuration A shall be replaced with configuration B
11:59:01 <V453000> if you want a train set where you can autoreplace any engine without losing wagons/problems, use NUTS train set :)
11:59:12 <V453000> yeah something like that
11:59:24 <degasus> I guess there are usually only a few configurations :D
12:01:14 <V453000> it would probably require rewriting of many things how the trains work
12:01:20 <degasus> oh, is it a technical or design decision to not allow bridges to cross? At different high levels of course
12:01:53 <degasus> hopefully "only" the train replacement logic. Else this could should be rewritten anyways :D
12:02:08 <V453000> kind of both ... in original ttd it wasn't there, and adding it means you need to check if the bridge below is low enough to allow another bridge on top
12:02:44 <degasus> for the GFX? Else I'd say a different level is fine ;)
12:02:47 <V453000> I believe such feature was quite close to done, to let bridges go over other lower bridges and stations, but each of the things would have it's "Z value" which would tell how tall it is, and from it would come the possibilities
12:03:11 <V453000> well yeah mainly for not breaking the visuals too much
12:04:29 <degasus> hm, Z per type sounds nice, indeed. For GFX, I hope low to upper blits shall fix all kind of this issues? But I'm not familiar with the old school 2d blittings :/
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12:26:56 <degasus> by the way, how common is the feature request for curves within tunnels and bridges? :D
12:28:54 <degasus> I'm dreaming of a rollercoaster tycoon building system, but I see why this will never come :D
13:08:19 <Flygon> I like to think of it as "A chance of success if enough money is thrown at it"
13:08:32 <Flygon> But I haven't become a multi-millionaire off stocks yet
13:09:17 <Flygon> I can't draw this freaking thumb
13:11:37 <Flygon> It just ocoured to me that I can use my own hand as a reference.
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15:20:59 <degasus> Flygon: is there a point in missing money on the openttd project? Or more about man power?
15:21:45 <degasus> good, it's easier to get my time than my money :D
15:23:02 <V453000> lol, to make full use of blender's command line rendering you have to write python scripts for it
15:23:06 <V453000> just to make it a proper 3D software
15:23:46 <degasus> I wish more applications have such a python API :D
15:24:42 <V453000> well sure, scripting can be an advantage, but it shouldn't be required to render a couple passes
15:25:06 <V453000> forcing command line rendering is shit by itself already ... but command line not having access to majority of the important render settings is pure wtf
15:26:02 <V453000> what you end up with is that the gui has a couple features, command line has a couple features, but neither is enough :D
15:26:18 <V453000> so the only way is to make a python script which actually controls blender for you
15:26:35 <degasus> how are those GFX packs generated? Are there some structured 3D data available for all objects?
15:27:25 <supermop> never bothered with blender V453000
15:28:02 <V453000> it isn't a bad program in general, I actually like working with it. But there are points when you can't believe such primitive functions are missing
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15:28:18 <V453000> admittedly the learning curve is total bullshit. Starting with blender is the hardest software I have ever seen
15:28:36 <supermop> the promote it as useful to the a&d industrustry, but to be honest i've never met an architect, interior designer, nor furniture designer who has ever heard of it other than myself.
15:28:40 <V453000> mainly because there are almost no buttons for modelling tools, you need to remember hotkeys or die dumb dropdown menus
15:29:06 <V453000> hehe yeah, well blender isn't a great fit for archviz
15:29:17 <V453000> especially due to the cad imports etc, max wins 100%
15:29:39 <V453000> also max is able to render anything you want easily ._.
15:30:50 <V453000> I just don't get how can a 3D suite omit a feature like "being able to render shit"
15:32:03 <supermop> very few architects use max either tho - we just render directly in rhino/cad/revit while we work, then we pay someone like V453000 $$$ to render the nice presentation images in max for us
15:32:33 <supermop> if we cant bill the client, just show them crappy screen grabs from some bullshit like sketchup
15:32:34 <V453000> well yeah, that trend is of course going to be only better as architect-friendly programs are able to render better outputs
15:32:42 <V453000> part of the reason why I wanted to leave the archviz industry
15:39:05 <supermop> I WANT TO PLAY AROUND WITH MAXWELL
15:39:15 <supermop> oops autocad caps lock
15:46:46 <V453000> blender cycles is a great render engine to be honest
15:46:55 <V453000> just hard to output something from blender XD
16:01:57 <supermop> ive seen some cool stuff out of it
16:04:28 <supermop> does pikka use blender?
16:05:18 <supermop> man so bummed, got last company to buy a rhino and flamingo license no problem, now this place only uses sketchup and taiwan
16:10:35 <V453000> pikka used some old max version
16:11:34 <V453000> I am assuming he still does
16:12:18 <supermop> we don't even use currect sketch up - like a 5 yo version
16:12:33 <supermop> so i cant use the free version of maxwell for sketch up with it
16:22:15 <supermop> dont think 5 seats of revit are in the budget though
16:31:34 <supermop> esp as i am the only one who even sort of knows how to use it
16:32:26 <supermop> so workflow benefits would be lost
16:33:10 <V453000> did you hear about the BIM database workflow?
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16:39:32 <supermop> but we need better workflow tools here
16:39:40 <supermop> like version control
16:39:59 <supermop> actually we are small enough that it's just a nuisance, not a problem
16:41:28 <V453000> yeah vcs is a great thing
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16:43:30 <V453000> idk how in the us but in europe it is getting more and more common that construction/architecture jobs require to be compatible with BIM system - it is a thing where during modelling you set materials, and these materials carry many values like prices per cubature, and many other things, so other professions than projectants can make use of it to determine price estimates and other shit ... basically all professions work in one database
16:45:21 <V453000> but yeah it is a workflow oriented on bigger companies probably
16:45:33 <V453000> though I read about some smaller architect studios using it
16:45:56 <V453000> one of the huge downsides is that it takes like a year to start working efficiently in it, and of course the software price
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16:55:35 <supermop> yeah, most big projects here are like that now, can revit really plugs into that workflow easily
16:55:55 <supermop> but small firms doing small projects are kind of on the outside
16:56:17 <supermop> the entry costs in time and money are too big to be worth it for them
16:56:59 <supermop> if you are doing something small with a small team, you could say " we can manage ok without it"
16:59:22 <supermop> and at a small firm, most of the decisions are driven by the principals, and if they are old guys - it was hard enough to get them to use cad. no way are they going to learn something different now, even if it is technically easier in the long run
16:59:55 <V453000> yeah that was exactly the problem we were facing, the jump from drawing boards to cad was already enough for them :D
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17:01:07 <supermop> they still think of cad as a fancy version of a drawing board with drafting film - they only consider it a medium for 2d abstractions of 3d forms - not something where 3d is possible or desirable
17:03:02 <supermop> then there are the guys like 10-15 years older than me, who are fast at cad and understand 3d, but their workflow is still to have 2d and 3d completely separate
17:04:04 <supermop> they think 3d is only for fancy presentations and concepts, and that all development of the building is actually done in cad in 2d
17:04:56 <supermop> better when you work on a big project for a government agency, and the government says - if you want to build our building, you have to use BIM
17:08:53 <V453000> exactly what I was refering to
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17:19:44 <supermop> frustratingly not cheap to 3d print large quantities of miniature breakwater tetrapods
17:24:57 <Alberth> a few years back, 3d printing didn't even exist :)
17:25:39 <Alberth> unless you had a few zillions, that is
17:30:29 <supermop> i did it once in architecture school - took like 16 hours
17:30:57 <supermop> and the resolution was pretty bad
17:31:25 <supermop> i even had to pay the school for the printer time
17:36:50 <Alberth> you were the sole owner of a 3d printer for a whole 16 hours thus :)
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18:19:19 <Wolf01> meh, 90€ of vip points on the lego shop and I don't even need a single set :(
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18:44:56 <Wolf01> Nah, it's me, I'm too fast on buying new stuff as soon it is available
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19:33:37 <degasus> why is "creating industries" so slow on big maps?
19:34:26 <degasus> perf says eg 4.5% for DistanceManhattan, shouldn't this be inlined?
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21:14:07 <Julien12150> that's a lot of users
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continue to next day ⏵
