IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-03-13
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02:11:50 <drac_boy> any of you indeed think that stub turnouts were generally only found on 4ft/smaller gauge railroads that had low operational speeds? I'm kinda thinking so but just wonder what others thought too
02:32:04 <Flygon> (okay, so, 48 tiles of Oil = 2,860 Crates of Goods)
02:34:44 <drac_boy> and heh flygon, you trying to get massive transport? :)
02:35:09 <Flygon> Needs to be an or- er- collaorative party
02:35:29 <Flygon> drac_boy: Island map with just one Oil Refinery in the middle of nowhere
02:35:39 <Flygon> These trains are the most efficient I got
02:36:23 <drac_boy> flygon well I think dual gauge usually were only 2 because the frogs were complex enough to make in the first place
02:36:47 <drac_boy> although if you got a lot of time with your model train I don't see why you couldn't had tried make one that hopefully might work :)
02:37:00 <Flygon> South Australia had triple gauge points :D
02:38:49 <drac_boy> although I know theres one spot in russia where their (5+ft)track crosses a standard gauge tram line and a 'children railroad' narrow gauge ... three different gauges of diamonds
02:42:51 <drac_boy> this is a different one from the one I mentioned but it still shows how three gauges are living next to each others. the steam locomotive is on 750mm and crossing broad gauge .. while that tram on other side of road is on 4'8" gauge
02:50:00 <Flygon> I am a bit surprised they never regauged to more standardized gauges
02:50:16 <Flygon> ie. 1067mm and 1524mm for Russia
02:52:33 <Flygon> It handled the start-stop pattern on the mountainous terrain very badly. It was designed to cruise at high speed on long distance lines >_>
02:52:53 <Flygon> (I forgot if it was Diesel-Mechancial or Diesel-Hydralic)
02:55:46 <drac_boy> heh well the locomotive is basically a Dze 6/6, and the only non-krokodil articulated locomotive as far as I know (aside to steam in form of 0-4-4-0T but it didn't go far)
02:56:13 <drac_boy> and btw I believe they used 750mm as it was rather supposed to be a low cost 'schooling' thing rather than as a everyday commercial railway to put it in words
02:57:17 <Flygon> Still, I'd be a bit worried about the increase in costs
02:57:29 <drac_boy> heh that sounds like australia didn't exactly have good luck with these specific dmu's
02:57:35 <Flygon> On the other hand, this makes for very cheap to import heratage stock for some Victorian railways :P
02:57:47 <drac_boy> considering they have many old railmotors and emu's still running around
02:58:08 <drac_boy> I still like the red slamdoor ones mind you
02:58:13 <Flygon> (we built a lot of 762mm lines... 750mm is within gauge variance tolerance at the speeds the lines ran)
02:58:36 <Flygon> The Bluebirds ran well for what they were designed for
02:58:58 <Flygon> Victora is made up of mountains, moutains, and more mountains
02:59:16 <Flygon> You wouldn't think V/Line had a hand in the climax of Thunderdome xP
02:59:25 <Flygon> (our North-West IS Desert)
02:59:42 <Flygon> This's also half the reason the VLos are so overpowered >_>
02:59:58 <Flygon> That's a Sliding Door, not a Slam Door :3
03:00:24 <Flygon> And I still think they should get the highest unload/reload rating possible for the 2CC set, given they're almost as much door as they are wall >_>
03:00:36 <drac_boy> oh well...one reason I like them is that from a side view .. if you blocked the pantograph from view it would almost look like a standard coach instead ... thats how generic they look like :)
03:00:51 <Flygon> Note that the doors slide BEHIND the Windows. The windows get blocked by the doors when they're ope!
03:00:58 <Flygon> Well, they were built the 1880s
03:01:19 <Flygon> They were refitted for EMU operation
03:01:30 <Flygon> And ran as both carriages and EMUs combined for over 100 years.
03:02:03 <drac_boy> the funny thing is there was actually this one britian oo scale layout I saw at a show once .. I asked about two coaches left on the line ... umm guess what happened? yep soon these two suddenly moved away on their own ... I had not realized they were actually power units :P
03:02:30 <drac_boy> compared to more modern dmu/emu units being too obvious even from a far distance
03:03:32 <Flygon> Well, think of it this way
03:03:59 <Flygon> It dooooes make economical sense to refit existig units
03:04:13 <Flygon> Just replace the bogies, add pantographs, add control stand... done!!
03:05:18 <Flygon> They ALREADY had cabs, with windows, for the guards to use
03:05:41 <Flygon> iirc, sometimes they'd run the trains with the locomotive pushing on the rear, and the guard reading the signals
03:06:02 <Flygon> I don't know if the guard had much control beyond using the bells and brakes, though
03:06:08 <drac_boy> mind you the funny thing is that later on GG1's sometimes did haul these (with the non-GG1 pantographs tied down)
03:08:20 <drac_boy> the slight sad thing is the timing tho .. just when budd was trying to sell a newer version (lightweight chassis with weight-saving aluminum shell for example) very few of them were ever purchased in the first place due to the spiral the company soon went into
03:08:35 <drac_boy> at least the amfleet coaches were more or less an unpowered copy of the design tho
03:09:05 <Flygon> This's half the reason VR built a lot of stuff inhouse until the 50s-60s...
03:09:16 <drac_boy> these would-be fleet of emu had inside bearing as well (yep no truck frame in view)
03:09:17 <Flygon> VR's unlikely to collapse suddenly xP
03:12:08 <Flygon> Huh, well... I do gotta say
03:12:13 <Flygon> They look American as hell
03:12:14 <drac_boy> only 6 built and all were designed as single-unit motors (so yeah 2 cabs in every each of them)
03:12:25 <drac_boy> assuming wiki got the quality right
03:14:55 <drac_boy> oh and flygon heres a weird history tidbit on the budd metroliner initially built for PC (then later amtrak) .. they were supposed to have lightweight trucks but PC got a bit worried and demanded older more reliable heavyweight trucks instead ... guess what happened? they caused more harsh ride at higher speeds but the designers only could migrate a bit of it without having to send the whole thing back to drawing board :-s
03:16:35 <drac_boy> at least even with the semi-lasthour truck switch these trainsets still did 100+mph in service
03:20:26 <Flygon> Didn't the fact they were so overweight cause huge structural problems?
03:21:07 <drac_boy> maybe, I don't recall the magazine article talking about that tho
03:22:20 <drac_boy> I do know for sure that till amtrak cured the issue with the belly-mounted electronics (surprise surprise) some winters sometimes saw the metroliner trainset not moving by itself but instead being hauled by a GG1 (which a number of had already received winterize kits for their air intake covers)
03:24:35 <drac_boy> even with the snow "smoke" you still can tell its a metroliner due to the tapered sides ;)
03:27:23 <Flygon> Ahh, USA, having massive gauge :D
03:27:33 <Flygon> Australia? Limited loading gauge. DD Trains all over Sydney :D
03:27:42 <Flygon> Some of the world's most cramped underfloor electronics
03:27:51 <Flygon> To the point where Japanese utterly baffled :3
03:28:38 <drac_boy> actually 'massive gauge' was not always so .. theres still some lines where amtrak could not even run their bilevel wagons at all (that was why a few old pre-amtrak diner coaches kept existing for so long due to being assigned together with amtrak-funded coaches on these routes)
03:29:10 <drac_boy> oh and to a more common degree if you're wondering why a doublestack train is *all* single containers ... check your map you might see why :)
03:30:18 <Flygon> (we do have lots of Double Stack here... bar certain lines with 1800s era tunnels)
03:31:21 <drac_boy> well its a bit funny sight sometimes .. seeing a very long train of nothing but just ttx doublestack wagons .. and yet guess what? its loaded to only single container height from the front to the back end :)
03:33:24 <Flygon> That's not pushed to the limit :3
03:33:27 <Flygon> It's not cramped enough
03:33:44 <drac_boy> nyc made it as big as their railroad would even take it .. heck the bell couldn't sit on top anymore so umm guess where they had to put it? right behind the pilot ... think that caused a lot of snow-out problems tho
03:34:07 <Flygon> It's not as biiiig, but it's cramped af :D
03:34:30 <Flygon> Even the Chimeny is noticably even stumpier
03:35:24 <Flygon> But, again, I still think lots of US railroads had waaay large loading gauges :D
03:35:27 <drac_boy> your problem is your boiler isn't exactly round at the top :)
03:35:52 <Flygon> Well, we had to fit it into the loading gauge somehow :P
03:37:52 <drac_boy> btw a noticeable number of tunnels in east usa actually had to be relaid to single track (instead of prior double) as to be able to clear the newer GE Dash units ... sometimes even the wagons as well (but even then some could accept the new locomotives but were still too shallow for a doublestack)
03:38:15 <sim-al2> Most of the time they cut the tunnel floor though, or notched the ceiling
03:38:22 <drac_boy> a few of these tunnels that were still doubletrack had noticeable notches in the portal ends ... adding a few inches more of clearance
03:38:44 <sim-al2> If it can't clear a Dash 8 it's not going to clear high-cube boxcars
03:39:13 <Flygon> drac_boy: Same thing happened here with older tunnels as we got larger gauges happening
03:39:49 <Flygon> sim-al2: People do tend to forget the wings are designed to deattach :P
03:40:00 <sim-al2> Although there is a GE cab variation with slight notching, supposedly because a coal loader on a AT&SF/BNSF line in Arizona was a bit too small to clear the regular version
03:40:22 <sim-al2> Well, in this case the wings haven't been put on yet :p
03:41:01 <drac_boy> btw flygon there is also a few rare instances of where the tunnel was built through a small hill instead of an actual mountain and so 50+ years later the then-current railroad decides its worth the cost to basically "remove" the offending hill in first place
03:41:30 <drac_boy> and yes these are old tunnel portals that are about to have no purpose for existing anymore soon
03:41:37 <sim-al2> For whatever reason, it's been cheaper to build the fuselages in the Mid-West or even east coast, and then ship them all the way to Seattle
03:41:55 <Flygon> Sounds like some of my OTTD games
03:42:15 <sim-al2> Yeah, BNSF has been doing that a lot, especially in the case of older tunnels
03:42:23 <Flygon> sim-al2: Same reason we send food to China for processing then reimport it >_>
03:43:27 <sim-al2> The best part is, when they arrive at Everett, a pair of GP38's shove the cars up hill to the plant
03:44:29 <Flygon> Let's take a moment to appreciate that, when we get the Bering Strait link
03:44:39 <Flygon> They'll prolly outsource fusilages to China >_>
03:44:50 <Flygon> Or Russia. Whatever's cheaper and less likely to crash
03:45:17 <sim-al2> No way that would be allowed, Boeing gets all kinds of concessions just to stay in Seattle
03:46:06 <sim-al2> Besides, shipping all the way across the ocean would be too expensive, and Chinese wages aren't rock bottom anymore
03:46:37 <Flygon> I wonder what'll be the next manufacturing base
03:46:49 <sim-al2> China has different minimum wages by region, the area around Shianghai is around the same level as Mexico
03:46:55 <Flygon> I'm placing bets on Africa... if they can get their collective proverbial sorted
03:47:17 <sim-al2> The northern interior is still quite low, but shipping from their is even more expensive, because you have to travel so far by land
03:47:50 <drac_boy> flygon btw if you want an instance of rail gauge gone crazy, take ten pills and go look at england :)
03:48:20 <sim-al2> I suppose, but I see Europe and south/southeast Asia as a more important destination for African industry than the US
03:48:59 <drac_boy> as I recall one example from mind, a small group of emu had stiffened suspensions as to be able to use a rather tight vintage-steam-era tunnel .. and just once none were around so someone tried borrow the same emu from another railway instead and umm guess what happened? it made some major dints both to the tunnel lining and itself :->
03:49:18 <drac_boy> talk about suspension plays!
03:49:46 <sim-al2> Sounds like England, where there was one railway line that constrained all the southern region diesel stock
03:50:29 <sim-al2> Including requiring a batch of Class 33s there were a few inches narrower, but ended costing the manufacturer a lot in retooling to build
03:51:44 <drac_boy> oh and btw even during the steam era there were an obvious reason some classes were banned on certain routes .. I know a magazine had one photo of an express 4-6-0 with some noticeable platform-strike damage to its piston coverings ... turns out that the story was that an engine swap was supposed to happen earlier on but it wasn't available for some reason so the crew decided to just continue on with their existing locomotive
03:52:14 <Flygon> Doesn't the UK have a 372mm commercial line or something?
03:52:20 <drac_boy> after a shed inspection the locomotive was sent back to where it should had been at on a special routing with 40kph restriction :-)
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03:53:13 <sim-al2> 372mm is hideously small, there are 1372mm railways, aka Soctch gauge, 4 foot 6 inches
03:53:48 <sim-al2> So-called minimum gauge is 381 mm, or 15 in
03:53:54 <drac_boy> 372mm sounds like some hand-pushed or 10hp tractor powered 10kph freight cart railway tbh
03:54:23 <sim-al2> Yeah, that's not really equipment that can go very far or fast
03:54:46 <drac_boy> 2ft/600mm was really probably the smallest independent transport gauge you could use tbh
03:55:32 <drac_boy> and not surprisingly even 60cm (aka 600mm) used to be a big thing around france area (neverminding non-france areas during WWII as well)
03:57:46 <drac_boy> and yeah that coach is a bit big .. talk about needing to keep a 6ft headspace inside among other things :)
03:58:33 <sim-al2> It seems that many industrial railways disappeared as trucks improved, those that remain being tourist railways, specialized, or converted to larger gauge
03:58:52 <Flygon> I'd be worrying about the passengers tipping the carriage over
03:59:25 <sim-al2> Usually the center of gravity is kept low by the frame, but these railways certianly had low speed limits
03:59:49 <drac_boy> well sim-a12 the real problem was that politics never really understood things .. they were basically asking to trade one relatively quiet train with low-cost property maintenance for basically loud black-smoking trucks that didn't really pay for their roads (at the time)
04:00:04 <sim-al2> That Class 91 has a maximum speed of 50km/h for example
04:00:17 <drac_boy> thats what some vine farm newseditors basically quoted the event as
04:01:42 <sim-al2> Perception is the key thing though, decent roads being regarded as new and liberating, and old slow railways as things of the past
04:01:59 <drac_boy> some people called these "mutant geeps" because they did really resemble a full gauge geep chopped down to the smaller gauge
04:03:01 <sim-al2> Narrow gauges didn't help too much either, as cargo would need to be transferred, unless of course it was something like a railway internal to a steel mill or logging operation
04:03:22 <drac_boy> actually many of the 60cm lines were self-serving ... transloading was rather rare
04:03:46 <drac_boy> eg the vines would had end up right at the brewery or so .. and even timer lines went all the way to the sawmill as was at the time
04:04:54 <drac_boy> quarry did sometimes have transloading but that was only as it was easier to send the truck or train to a single stockpile point whereas the 60cm lines spread out like a spider web to haul the initial raw supplies
04:06:25 <sim-al2> Those Class 91-000s worked on a network of narrow gauge that servered a quarry among other things, but since that quarry is now closed the utility of the narrow gauge lines is decreasing, and most of the locomotives have been sold
04:06:50 <drac_boy> oh and sim-a12 some of the logging railroads might had shared same gauge but they were treated as isolated non-connect lines as to avoid the "mainline" regulations/etc for example
04:06:59 <Flygon> I know the 762mm tourist lines here (namely, Puffing Billy) actually manage to haul some Freight
04:07:10 <Flygon> But it's mostly token (eg. some extra money on the side)
04:07:13 <drac_boy> you should had seen these crazy tracks they sometimes built (even a 4-4-0 would had derailed on them!)
04:07:19 <Flygon> And I'm 90% sure just local goods
04:08:11 <sim-al2> True about the regulations, but there's ways to overcome that, i.e. transit systems that remove rails at their recieving sidings except when needed
04:10:50 <Flygon> (Noting that Puffing Billy itself's kind of lucky it didn't go 762mm>1600mm... in fact, part of the line WAS! VR hated running NG lines. They only did so because Parliamet forced them to.)
04:10:58 <sim-al2> There were some narrow gauge railways in Colorado that were very important freight haulers in the local area, but of course that traffic declined over time, and died off as roads improved
04:11:46 <sim-al2> Yeah, I have to wonder how much money was really saved with narrow gauge railways when tunnelling wasn't needed
04:11:49 <Flygon> (Parliament wanted EVERY town possible connected by Railway... VR did not want to build through dense rocky mountain range using 1600mm... cue the Government basically going "Fine, here's some $$$, build it as cheap as possible". VR still kinda all :| )
04:11:54 <drac_boy> and that was for 10+ years just like THAT
04:12:26 <sim-al2> Yeah, the biggest problem with that is that the trackbed WILL washout with time, and make a big mess
04:12:27 <drac_boy> if you look you can see the actual tracks submerged under
04:13:01 <drac_boy> sim-a12 .. actually the tracks were nailed to fresh-from-nearby timbers .. and they only had to periodically move the mud out of the way
04:13:09 <sim-al2> Also, I'm sure the running gear doesn't like that either
04:13:27 <drac_boy> even the boiler water is taken directly from creeks from time to time
04:13:36 <Flygon> If you pre-fabbed Concrete and drilled it into the ground, with the rails bolted in
04:13:42 <Flygon> I don't think it'd wash out
04:13:47 <Flygon> But it's too expensive of a solution
04:14:05 <drac_boy> flygon yeah this is a $5 maintenance railroad :P
04:14:32 <drac_boy> they only finally got a diesel locomotive....and kept it restrained to simply doing sawmill tracks shunting
04:15:11 <sim-al2> I've read about the log thing actually, the earliest railways were built that way, but the normal trackbed was superior for the way most railways operated
04:15:45 <sim-al2> Modern slab track designs are a bit like that, but include vibration-dampening elements
04:16:00 <drac_boy> btw if you want worser: just drop the track right onto ground with zero ballast ... and just hope your suspensions are all extra-soft :)
04:16:29 <sim-al2> Heh, I think log railways tended to be that, as the track was temporary anyway
04:16:53 <sim-al2> At least, compared to any other railway
04:17:02 <drac_boy> well some lowly weekly-freight-only lines actually had little or no ballast .. cue a GP7 crawling at notch 1 ... bobbling like weird :)
04:17:26 <drac_boy> of course by now FRA would had classed such lines as exempted and no traffic allowed
04:17:53 <sim-al2> Quite a few branch lines were run into the ground that way, just stopped doing mainteance and hoping that the ICC would allow abandonment
04:18:18 <sim-al2> Hmm, that's actually an Unclassified track rating, freight only with a maximum of 10mph
04:18:30 <drac_boy> actually you remind me..some of the open quarry railways in britian actually basically just drop the track wherever it was required and used nothing but 0-4-0T's to shunt these tippers/flatcars around
04:19:26 <sim-al2> I don't think the FRA actually blocks traffic unless it's putting people in danger, but unclassified track is usually in extremely poor condition
04:19:34 <drac_boy> in one instance it was actually a dumping ground so the tippers ran to end of line and dump there..then when it got too full they simply moved the track a few hundred meters west (or east whatever) from current position .. then continue tipping more there
04:20:43 <drac_boy> btw FRA does have a class 1 (or was it 10? I forgot how the sliding scale worked) condition where the line is just ok for 15-20kph freight but absolutely no passenger service of any kind allowed
04:21:58 <sim-al2> Exceptd track is freight only, 10mph, Class 1 is 10mph freight, 15mph passenger
04:22:16 <Flygon> FRA regulations are too schitzophrenic for me to trust
04:22:40 <Flygon> Such as The Acela Express locomotives being required to be weighed down with so much concrete that it's actually a safety hazard
04:22:41 <drac_boy> flygon, I hate north america politics anyway (and yes . politic=law period)
04:22:41 <sim-al2> There's geometry requirements that have to be met, nothing more than that
04:22:51 <Flygon> Nevermind the complete logic failure
04:23:08 <drac_boy> flygon heh yeah the acela was a dumb mess .. not to mention not even being able to run push-pull so cue two overpowered locomotives on a short train
04:23:11 <sim-al2> There's no concrete that I know of, it's just that Tier 2 collision standards are rather high
04:23:22 <drac_boy> I think it was only recently that the acela train had more coaches inserted
04:24:03 <sim-al2> Having two locomotives made acceleration better, allowing the train to actually take advantage of its higher speed rating
04:24:21 <sim-al2> Also, I think more coaches were intended in the first place
04:24:48 <drac_boy> one single aclea had more than enough power even in winter .. and beside .. 4 coaches weights almost nothing (comically a single FT could had hauled it if it wasn't for the newer track speed limits)
04:24:49 <Flygon> drac_boy: In my rather frank opinion
04:25:06 <sim-al2> Lots of the line between Philadelphia and New York is very curvy, and widening the curves will be expensive
04:25:08 <Flygon> The Acela route would be better served by, say, VLos, or something equivilant
04:25:14 <Flygon> They're crashproof enough >_>
04:25:22 <Flygon> ie. blowing past LX @ 200km/h
04:25:30 <sim-al2> So better acceleration means actually getting up to speed on the straight parts
04:25:34 <Flygon> Of course, you'd want to reengineer them for EMU operation
04:26:13 <sim-al2> Also, the Tier 2 regulations at the time didn't really allow for cab cars (I think this will change, if it hasn't already)
04:26:28 <Flygon> But even the DMU versions probably accelerate better... and I'm sure modern Hydralic Transmission can do 220km/h...
04:26:39 <drac_boy> oh and as a dumb footnote: many of the japan emus are only like 40-70% powered axles yet many of these are used in every-seconds-counts tight highspeed services eh?
04:26:46 <sim-al2> Umm, New York Pennsylvania Station
04:27:19 <sim-al2> (without dual-mode capability)
04:27:31 <Flygon> sim-al2: Yeah, but I was making an observation xP
04:27:35 <sim-al2> Also, the whole line from Boston to DC is electrified
04:27:58 <Flygon> That an Australian DMU would probably handle the Acela service better than the current Acela stock does atm, ignoring all FRA regulaton
04:28:11 <Flygon> In reality, yes, you'd want EMUs with similar crashproofing standards
04:28:25 <sim-al2> Shinkansens have more powered-axles though
04:28:31 <drac_boy> btw sorry about this but getting a bit late here and I'm not sure about the clocks tomorrow either ... have fun anyway
04:28:57 <Flygon> sim-al2: To be clear, I mean locomotive-less, no locomotive :3
04:29:05 <Flygon> But FRA regulation mandates locomotives
04:29:24 <sim-al2> The N700s returned to having powered axles on all but the end cars for bettter performance and braking regeneration
04:30:18 <sim-al2> Flygon, those units better have tilt on them too, or they won't
04:30:24 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
04:30:36 <Flygon> The VLos aren't designed for Tilt
04:30:39 <sim-al2> Also, the speed limits are going up to 165mph
04:30:45 <Flygon> Which, imho, is a complete design flaw
04:30:56 <Flygon> Ahh, I thought they topped at 240km/h (140mph iirc)
04:31:39 <Flygon> VLo bodies and suspension can handle 220-230km/h well enough... but the Transmission and Motors didn't >_>
04:32:09 <sim-al2> Unfortunatly the average speed is much lower, but the new section through Rhode Island has long streches of 150mph (currently)
04:32:11 <Flygon> The only reason I'd suggest a modification of the VLocity design, is due to the Shinkansen EMUs not being designed to crash into a truck
04:32:27 <Flygon> If there was no level crossings
04:32:40 <Flygon> I'd just punch the "Import a Shinkansen N700 button"
04:32:47 <sim-al2> I think making a crash-rated Shinkansen would be easier
04:33:08 <Flygon> Easier than reengineering the DMU design for EMU?
04:33:27 <sim-al2> It's not like the modern Japanese trains aren't already being designed very carefully for passenger protection
04:33:39 <Flygon> Yeah, but they're designed to NOT crash
04:33:48 <Flygon> Not TO crash gracefully
04:34:46 <sim-al2> I don't see the advantage, and the JR East Shinkansens already operate in cold snowy conditions
04:35:07 <Flygon> Ooooh yeah, I forgot the USA gets far colder
04:35:22 <Flygon> The VLos only sometimes operate in Snow
04:36:14 <sim-al2> Bombardier is also not very popular with Amtrak, mainly because the HHP-8 locomotives were always trouble, and the Acela had all kinds of wheel and tilt problems early on
04:36:33 <Flygon> (most of the passengers came out alright... the 4 drivers didn't. Long story)
04:36:54 <Flygon> Yeah, I see the issue =/
04:37:00 <Flygon> Bombardier's been nothing but fantastic for us
04:37:12 <Flygon> I guess different regional divisions have different standards
04:37:21 <sim-al2> Yeah, the collision ratings aren't really based on passenger forces, but more like buff strength and corner-post strength
04:38:03 <sim-al2> Unfortunatly, the buff strength rating is much higher than elsewhere, and scares manufacturers off because they can't reuse the body from their existing designs
04:39:11 <sim-al2> Yeah, I think the justification is that the car not be trashed if moved on the head-end of a freight train
04:39:17 <Flygon> Yeah, existing VLo designs (a branch of the design is used for commuter EMUs in Adelaide) aren't exactly designed to crash in the way the FRA wants
04:39:49 <sim-al2> There's been all kinds of official proposal for new standards, but it's taking a long time to happen
04:40:02 <Flygon> Whenever a VLo hits a car, it tends to result in the car being dragged by the DMU going from 160km/h to 0 >_>
04:40:26 <Flygon> The rock truck incident actually happened @ 120-130km/h
04:41:59 <sim-al2> Unfortunatly we have lots of railroad crossings still, so trucks have to be factored in safety concerns
04:42:53 <Flygon> Ideally.... we don't hit a truck. But if we do... well, as we found out, at least the passengers survived okay
04:43:08 <Flygon> The train-on-train crashes seem to actually be safer >_>
04:43:45 <Flygon> (VLo had a head-on with a Comeng due to speeding... and, probably, the Comeg's lights being broken. That last bit's still flamebait in the local rail community)
04:44:22 <Flygon> "For anyone who hasn’t driven a V/Locity, they
04:44:23 <Flygon> roll very well—probably better than any
04:44:23 <Flygon> rolling stock in Victoria—and can easily creep
04:44:23 <Flygon> up over the speed limit if you’re not watching
04:44:29 <Flygon> Oh... that didn't copypasta well. Sorry.
04:45:28 <Flygon> But... yeah. I'm actually more worried about a train-on-truck incident locally than train-on-train
04:45:48 <Flygon> ...unless both're powering toward eachother headon, the train being hit will give way >_>
04:48:20 <sim-al2> Some of the recent crossing accidents have been rather ugly, and some concerns about new rolling stock design
04:48:50 <Flygon> There is only one real true solution, of course
04:51:51 <sim-al2> Expensive to get rid of level crossings in most places, as bridges or tunnels don't necessairly fit well
04:52:27 <sim-al2> Elevating the rail line would work, but that's beyond the funding level of most commuter agencies
04:53:30 <Flygon> Yeaah, elevating is the most sensible solution
04:53:33 <Flygon> With proper maintainence
04:53:39 <Flygon> The USA isn't good at the maintainence bit :(
04:54:52 <sim-al2> Noise would be a problem too, as the locomotives will be above people on the ground
04:55:48 <sim-al2> Also NIMBY-ism would be a barrier
05:00:30 <Flygon> The noise is MORE easily mitigated with viaducts than at-ground
05:00:47 <Flygon> Noise barriers + Projecting all the noise UPWARDS, rather than horizontally
05:01:07 <sim-al2> Taking suburbs for example, people really hate structures being built
05:02:14 <sim-al2> Yeah, but without good track design, the concrete structures will radiate more noise outward. Also, consider that most commuter lines have at least a small amount of freight traffic too
05:03:15 <sim-al2> Yeah, but they have money, and there's widespread disapproval of government projects at any level right now
05:06:00 <sim-al2> The projects that are getting done are the usual continuous improvements, i.e. track, station, etc
05:07:23 <sim-al2> A lot of systems here are also replacing older equipment, especially with promise of new lighter passenger coaches, as well as more powerful locomotives
05:11:21 <Flygon> Of course, my critique with that, specifically
05:11:34 <Flygon> Is the total focus on the loco+carriage arrangement
05:11:51 <Flygon> V/Line's been trying to obsolete it hard, due to it's operational restrictios
05:12:29 <sim-al2> Yeah, but often the commuter systems have to be flexible since they run a variety of lines, like Metra for example has these 8+ car rush-hour trains
05:13:15 <sim-al2> GO Transit, the Toronto commuter rail system, has done a lot of research into alternatives
05:14:10 <Flygon> Is we just tape VLos together
05:14:29 <Flygon> We're moving to 3 car sets, so the likely end result for, say, Geelong crush load, is 3+3+3
05:14:45 <Flygon> I'm expecting 12 car VLos in future, with a 3+3+3+3 arrangement
05:14:59 <Flygon> Which will also likely create a hole in the Ozone layer above Victoria
05:15:05 <sim-al2> They put out a study a year or so ago, that DMUs would be cost-effective only up to regular use as 4-6 car formations, compared to using diesel locomotives or going electric
05:15:29 <Flygon> 9000 horsepower for a single DMU can't be wrong
05:15:46 <Flygon> ...it needs 13 cars, to go over 9000 >_>
05:16:04 <sim-al2> Lol, DMUs would be rather useful if it weren't for the lack of infrastruture in many cities
05:16:40 <sim-al2> Amtrak already has a lot invested in their fleet of cars, and DMUs wouldn't do much for them
05:17:00 <Flygon> Lack of infrastructure? O_o
05:17:09 <sim-al2> There are a few DMU systems now
05:17:25 <Flygon> Half the reason we use the VLos so hard, is because they don't need much infrastructure :D
05:17:36 <Flygon> Just load fuel in, and they'll go anywhere, no turnarounds or anything :D
05:18:01 <sim-al2> I mean, cities in places like Ohio were they desperatly need transit systems but there's not real possibility of just building some stations and buying a few DMUs
05:19:36 <sim-al2> There's not really the long regional lines here anymore, it's either existing commuter systems, or new start
05:19:42 <Flygon> I wouldn't recommend DMUs for urban transit
05:19:49 <Flygon> They cost way too much to run
05:20:02 <Flygon> I bet you, VLo would rather run Electric versions of VLos if they could
05:20:35 <Flygon> But the Government doesn't want to stump up the cost for 200km/h capable 1500vDC, or adding 25kvAC to our existing electrical system, then making dual-voltage DMUs
05:21:07 <Flygon> The VLos are like Klingons
05:21:20 <sim-al2> In the sense of just starting something up, they would be nice. For example, there's a system being built in Sonoma and Marin counties in California (north of San Francisco)
05:21:23 <Flygon> They have a lot of redundant parts that render them nigh unkillable
05:21:35 <Flygon> But if something DOES break, it's a nightmare to do surgery on them
05:21:43 <Flygon> Because there's so many redundancy inside them...
05:21:47 <Flygon> And they're so mechanically comple
05:22:12 <Flygon> I think I've seen those run about Africa
05:22:20 <Flygon> They're designed for 200km/h, iirc?
05:22:26 <sim-al2> 2 and 3 car trains, not particuarly low headways
05:22:45 <sim-al2> No, these are different, I think you've seen the Gautrain stuff in SA
05:23:18 <sim-al2> These are Nippon Sharyo, Japanese manufacturer that's a big deal in the US now
05:23:33 <Flygon> The ones I'm thinking of are SG
05:23:52 <sim-al2> These are good for 90mph, about 145 km/h
05:24:07 <Flygon> We don't have a huge much in the way of Japanese rollingstock here... there's a few historical reasons for this
05:24:17 <Flygon> tl;dr: The Japanese are stubburn, we're picky about how our stuff is built
05:24:21 <sim-al2> They have the same engines as the Vlocity btw, so I'm sure they could be run faster
05:24:55 <Flygon> They asked for our help with building DDEMUs in the 80s... then got into arguments with us about how to build DDEMUs. Nobody came out of it happy.
05:25:05 <sim-al2> These are really meant for commuter/regional ops though, they don't have the facilties for more than a few hours runs
05:25:12 <Flygon> I understand it's a popular engine
05:25:47 <Flygon> The only DMUs I've seen that are really used for long distance are NSW's Xplorers
05:25:57 <Flygon> Such as the 11ish hour Broken Hill runs
05:26:00 <sim-al2> Yeah, seems to be all over the newer DMUs, worldwide
05:26:13 <Flygon> ...which are, incidentally, are the direct descendants of VLocities :D
05:26:25 <sim-al2> There's the WA Transwa DMUs too
05:26:41 <Flygon> Refit the transmission and engine, add a software update, and it's a VLocity for all intents and purposes :3
05:26:51 <Flygon> The TransWA DMUs are just VLocities with a different name :3
05:27:06 <Flygon> They came out about a year after, based on the same design
05:27:14 <sim-al2> In Hokkiado, the northern most Japanese islands there's long distance runs with tilting DMUs
05:27:26 <Flygon> The ones that look like worms?
05:27:55 <sim-al2> Technically, the UK has some too, as the Voyagers often run across both electrified and non-electrified lines
05:28:36 <Flygon> I do like the Voyagers :#
05:28:47 <sim-al2> Yeah, those. Unfortunatly, there was an accident where a driveshaft broke and caused a fire in a tunnel, that burned out the whole train
05:30:21 <sim-al2> No one got hurt, but the tilting was disabled and speed reduced from 130 km/h to 120 km/h. I'm not sure if the speeds and tilting will return, but the newest generation of equipment was canceled and will be more like the Kiha 261, which has air suspension tilting
05:33:46 <sim-al2> The company was heavily criticized. It seems that in an attempt to get profitibility (despite being privatized, they are being funded by the Hokkiado government), they got rid of older experienced workers in favor of new-hires, and so the maintenace department was less experienced
05:34:38 <Flygon> ONLYYY reason JK Hokkaido is being bailed out by the Gov't
05:34:44 <Flygon> Is because, for all intents and purposes
05:35:08 <Flygon> My friends and I suspect they'll get absorbed by JR East
05:35:09 <sim-al2> Some of the equipment is getting a bit older, the first Kiha 281's being from 1994, and they are heavily used
05:35:38 <Flygon> 1994 doesn't see that old... but
05:35:47 <Flygon> Japan has shorter lifecycles than Gaijin equipment >_>
05:36:05 <sim-al2> I don't know, if anything they will spin-off as much of the local lines as possible, keeping the Sapporo commuter traffic and the new Shinkansen
05:36:47 <sim-al2> Yeah, in this case it seems justified, as the conditions are harsh
05:37:18 <Flygon> The Shinkansen was suppose to save JR Hokkaido
05:37:27 <Flygon> But it's too little, too late, methinks
05:37:27 <sim-al2> I don't think 281s will be retired anytime soon, as long as the connection to the Shinkansen at Hakodate is needed
05:38:25 <sim-al2> Which could be like 2030
05:40:55 <sim-al2> Hmm, even weirder, the Shinkansen station is 18km away, so a shuttle train will be used (I think the diesel services will be extended there too, as the whole point of the new Shinkansen section right now is to make it a 2 seat ride to Tokyo, instead of 3 as current)
05:45:50 <sim-al2> But, the section to Sapporo will take much longer, basically because of mountains making the job difficult
05:47:19 <sim-al2> The sleeper services will also be obsolete, at least in their current form, after the 26th
05:48:59 <Flygon> It's a shame we lack such ambition here
05:49:13 <Flygon> We can't even build a simple HSR line across one of the world's busiest air corridores
05:49:34 <sim-al2> This has been proposed since like the 70's, but financial difficulties put it off
05:51:19 <sim-al2> It took boring the world's longest undersea tunnel too, 53.9 km in total, 23.3 km undersea, but it was served with narrow gauge trains until now
05:51:58 <sim-al2> Now it is dual-gauge, since freight traffic is pretty big between Hokkiado and the rest of Japan
05:53:12 <Flygon> (I wouldn't really call it finacial difficulties, btw, so much as our Government lacks ambition)
05:53:19 <sim-al2> The initial speed for the Shinkansen will only be 140km/h, since freight trains will be run around the clock
05:53:36 <Flygon> (We've had the capability to come up to building it since the 1950s... but we were too Roads focused)
05:54:10 <Flygon> (up to then, 160km/h services with NSWGR was regular, and VR had similar capabilities)
05:54:53 <Flygon> (it's really not hard for me to imagine either railway developing for 200-220km/h speeds by the 60s... if anyone had the foresight to)
05:54:58 <sim-al2> I think the privatized JRs, especially East and West, are still servicing debit from the JNR Shinkansen projects...
05:55:15 <Flygon> I mean, they were privatized BECAUSE of the Shinkansen debt
05:55:46 <sim-al2> Yeah, lots of interesting things happened in the 80's as JNR played around with saving energy and money
05:56:13 <sim-al2> Including making basically all commuter/suburban trains stainless steel
05:56:57 <Flygon> What did they use before that?
05:57:03 <sim-al2> Lighter weight, when combined with improvments to old resistor-based traction control, like regenerative braking, helped a lot
05:58:01 <sim-al2> The old trains only used dynamic braking, so the modern ones have half the energy consumption of the old ones
05:58:32 <Flygon> I assumed they went fully stainless by the 70s
05:58:43 <sim-al2> Rather nice for the underground trains too, as it saves on air-conditioning and stuff
05:59:12 <sim-al2> Tokyu built a lot of stainless steel cars, since they became a licensor of Budd in the 60's
05:59:16 <Flygon> ...then again, VR somehow managed to have Stainless Steel trains rust just 7-10 years after they were built (the 'Hitachi' sets. Noting that Hitachi only supplied the builders, the bodies were built by someone else
05:59:20 <Flygon> VR were pissssssed >_>
06:00:55 <sim-al2> Also TRTA and other went for it, but there were also a number of aluminum cars
06:04:42 <Flygon> Oh, that's why my 48 tile long trains are unprofitable
06:04:55 <Flygon> They're taking over a year to reach their destination @ 66km/h
06:05:35 <Flygon> They're Quadruple headed, to boot
06:05:41 <Flygon> The wagons only support 71km/h
06:07:14 <Flygon> If they were triple headed, they'd stall going up some of the hills =/
06:07:22 <Flygon> I needthe AT&SF locos already...
06:08:03 <Flygon> And I thought my 12 tile long Coal trains hauled by a single Consolidation Loco were insane
06:08:13 <Flygon> But they only go downhill when full
06:09:06 <Flygon> They max at 71km/h due to downhill assist... but lose speed when they lose it
06:09:23 <Flygon> But by the time they hit their 'true' max speed, they're already braking at the station
06:09:52 <Flygon> Relaced them with SNCF 140C's
06:10:27 <Flygon> They don't fare much better, but it'll stop the game telling me my Consolidations are almost 60 years old
06:13:12 <Flygon> Very tempted to rename these 48 tile trains "Landships"
06:14:55 <Flygon> I'd use GWR 4900's if the Wagons had better speed limits
06:24:23 <sim-al2> Hmm, how much do the 48 tile trains make on delivery?
06:24:56 <Flygon> They'd make more if they weren't so slow
06:24:59 <Flygon> But they ARE profitable
06:25:12 <Flygon> Just shut down my first line
06:25:13 <sim-al2> Not too bad, how far do they travel?
06:25:19 <Flygon> Was run only by railbuses
06:25:54 <Flygon> Now replacing it with Buses and Trucks (Railbuses were 60km/h, RVs now can do 40km/h)
06:25:59 <sim-al2> Heh, I almost never shut-down lines, although I sometimes do complete makeovers
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06:26:38 <Flygon> Approximately 800 tiles, sim-al2
06:27:10 <Flygon> I need to shut the line down to make way for a new line xP
06:28:09 <Flygon> Where the eff does OTTD save it's stuff again...
06:28:15 <Flygon> I remember when times were simple
06:28:21 <Flygon> When games saved everything into /Program Data/
06:29:21 <Flygon> I never ever ever use My Documents xP
06:30:27 <Flygon> Not as realisitc as I'd like it
06:30:34 <Flygon> But operational costraints
06:31:40 <Flygon> Also, you can see where I removed the line xP
06:32:24 <sim-al2> Yeah, I though you meant something longer, I can see why you removed that
06:32:48 <Flygon> There's still one at Reykholt
06:34:15 <Flygon> A lot of people hate me for going for asesthetics over realism xP
06:34:25 <sim-al2> Hmm, looks like you should get the WCG-1 soon
06:35:06 <Flygon> I need to electricy the Garour lie
06:35:07 <sim-al2> I would add a siding to the railbus thing, moving the coal transfer train over to the side of the mine
06:35:11 <Flygon> And, frankly, redesign it
06:35:17 <Flygon> It didn't become as useful as I thought it would be
06:40:19 <Flygon> Still wish Level Crossings supported more than Single Track x.x
06:41:59 <sim-al2> That belt of cities around Reykjavik looks really nice
06:42:27 <Flygon> I do want to let it sprawn further
06:42:38 <Flygon> But I'd want to 'add' additional towns in first
06:42:58 <Flygon> For South, only thing stopping me is procrastination
06:46:05 <Flygon> Also, listening to the DMG Smurfs music while playing OTTD is ridiculously calming
06:49:35 <Flygon> I'd release a 'remastered' version of the Iceland map with the towns missing added
06:49:43 <Flygon> But I don't think the author'd like that
06:49:51 <Flygon> I'd like to make a Victoria map
06:50:27 <Flygon> There's no way to simultainiously support Desert, Arid Grass, Lush Grass, Arctic Grass, and Snow simultainiously
06:50:37 <Flygon> Victoria's both a Desert climate, and Sub-Arctic Climate >_>
06:51:08 <Flygon> The guy was clearly paid too much, he did a bang-up job
06:51:44 <sim-al2> Yeah, you can play around in the scenario editor to get some decent sub-tropical going, but I don't know about snow and different grass
06:51:54 <Flygon> You can see the issue =/
06:52:02 <Flygon> And there's no way to LOCALIZE snow
06:52:14 <Flygon> A 8192*8192 map was possible
06:52:23 <Flygon> And I was feeling exeptionally unlazy
06:52:49 <Flygon> It'd be impossible to capture the VIC/NSW/TAS Alpine Ranges without making it snow on Uluru, and Grassy in the Simpson
06:53:09 <Flygon> But going by Desert climate, suddenly it's Dried up in Tasmania
06:53:28 <Flygon> When I'd more compare the Tasmanian climate to... a slightly less oppressive Norway
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07:15:44 <Flygon> One of Iceland's Highways is route 420
07:15:54 <Flygon> Still waiting for Route 621
07:16:38 <sim-al2> I think Colorado stop replacing the Milepost 420 after it got stolen a few times
07:17:30 <sim-al2> Looks like with 3rd gen tankers, your train will be "only" 33 tiles to have the same capacity
07:18:06 <Flygon> Didn't they replace it with 419.99?
07:18:13 <Flygon> sim-al2: I'll keep the same length
07:19:36 <sim-al2> I actually think you need more trains, because some oil is decaying because the station rating is low
07:20:07 <Flygon> btw, with the scenario, note I can't type accents on my keyboard (US Settings)
07:20:19 <Flygon> And a lot of 'area' names are just best guesses
07:22:31 <Flygon> It's around $1.5m per train
07:26:22 <Flygon> If I started in 1977 instead of 1877
07:26:28 <Flygon> There'd be WAAAAAY more Road Vehicles
07:26:40 <Flygon> Due to Iceland's... Icelandicness
07:32:54 <Flygon> sim-al2: There's also other more pragmatic reasons
07:33:18 <Flygon> Such as only wanting to manually rebuild a few small trains when I get access to the AT&SF
07:33:39 <Flygon> The Big Boy likely sticking around until the 80s
07:33:48 <Flygon> Which's an issue, because they expire before then
07:33:54 <Flygon> But no other loco quite bes good enough
07:36:26 <Flygon> Forgot the 2CC set has that
07:36:37 <Flygon> Still, it does require rejiggig the entire consist again
07:36:44 <Flygon> The key issue being the lack of TE
07:37:32 <sim-al2> It's still pretty high, around 500-600 kN
07:37:52 <Flygon> Running off memory here, I'll note
07:41:54 <Flygon> I think Airships are bugged O_o
07:41:58 <Flygon> They fly reeaaaallly low
07:43:24 <Flygon> I just wish I had better Seaships
07:43:35 <Flygon> And the ability to turn Mail off x.x
07:45:11 <Flygon> I gotta rebuild Kisubla Junction
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08:51:28 <Flygon> Njarovik is a pain to rearrange... @_@
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08:54:00 <sim-al2> Even in the save you gave me it's pretty tight
08:55:18 <Flygon> It's been made even tighter
08:55:24 <Flygon> Prepping for another two Pax. platforms
08:56:58 <Flygon> Which means Njarovik town itself is... uhm
08:57:14 <Flygon> I completely redo the freight bypass...
08:58:13 <Flygon> No... there's not enough room
08:58:39 <Flygon> It's one of those things where flexi-viaducts would be very very helpful
09:02:00 <Flygon> But rearranging everything AGAIN will be a nightmare
09:02:15 <Flygon> To separate 'express' passenger and freight
09:02:30 <Flygon> I'm only prepping for the 'stopper' passenger line. For 15 years time.
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09:05:54 <Flygon> Oooooh, shit yeah. Got access to the AT&SF now
09:07:04 <Flygon> Replacing 4x SSB C 5/6's (1,643hp, 215kN) w/1x AT&SF 5000 (5,779hp, 481kN) will save soooooooooooooooooooo much money
09:09:02 <Flygon> This's 1.5m/ltrs to 4.3m/ltrs per train
09:10:19 <Flygon> Still gonna replace with Big Boys, mind
09:10:38 <Flygon> Esp. with me struggling to print $$$
09:10:59 <Flygon> The trains are cheaper, to boot
09:11:13 <Flygon> It's no wonder these locos got invented IRL
09:12:39 <Flygon> The trains are so long
09:12:45 <Flygon> They're a nightmare to get in and out of depots
09:15:29 <Flygon> First fully loaded about to take off
09:15:53 <Flygon> Taking of with Gravity assist
09:16:53 <Flygon> But with downhill assist
09:17:27 <Flygon> It loses speed climing Hills
09:17:33 <Flygon> But still faster than the C 5/6's
09:17:46 <Alberth> live comment on game progress :)
09:18:11 <Flygon> Bottomed out at 66km/h, thank christ @_@
09:18:26 <Flygon> It bottomed at 69km/h >_>
09:20:21 <Alberth> nah, < 20 km/h is slow :)
09:20:56 <Flygon> Oh, certainly. I'm just even more impatient for Big Boys now :D
09:22:16 <Flygon> What's gonna really suck, is replacing the double headed trains with single headed trains >_>
09:22:45 <Flygon> Kinda wishing OTTD had a replace consist with new consist feature... buuut... that's already been requested :D
09:24:35 <andythenorth> it’s one of the few worthwhile missing features imho
09:25:07 <Flygon> I aint gonna jab too hard about it
09:25:15 <Flygon> I've upset the coders too many times
09:25:23 <Flygon> I'm grateful for what we got
09:27:04 <andythenorth> Alberth: you’re slightly familiar with newgrf parameter window?
09:27:33 <Alberth> "slightly"? :) perhaps :)
09:27:38 <sim-al2> There's a Template Replace patch, you can find it in JGR's patchpack
09:28:02 <Alberth> depends on the precise topic
09:28:25 <andythenorth> wondering about parameter groups
09:28:44 <andythenorth> progressive disclosure on a ‘+’ ‘-‘ type thing, like settings
09:29:00 <andythenorth> I think it’s lipstick on a pig really
09:29:09 <andythenorth> newgrf _shouldn’t_ have so many parameters
09:29:21 <Alberth> do these exist eg in action 14?
09:30:19 <Alberth> do you know your nuts have a gap in early multi-engine setup?
09:31:18 <Alberth> I'll take that as a "no", let me make a picture
09:33:24 <andythenorth> I think it would be quite easy to add group in action 14
09:33:40 <andythenorth> just add a group keyword, anything declaring that string goes in the group
09:34:12 <andythenorth> order within the group is derived from order of items when declared, as currently
09:34:37 <andythenorth> “group = advanced_settings” or so on
09:35:03 <andythenorth> and also a declaration for a name string for the group
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09:35:18 <V453000> Alberth: consistency and 8/8 vehicles with small sprites :P
09:35:59 <Alberth> I don't remember having consistent gaps :D
09:36:50 <V453000> was there since version 0.0.1
09:40:44 <V453000> Alberth: today I would probably solve it by articulating a short wagon for 8/8
09:41:14 <V453000> might still do it one day
09:41:55 <Alberth> was just letting you know I found it, nothing else
09:42:23 <V453000> wat magic? :D that it is visually shorter than logically?
09:44:04 <Alberth> no, "articulating a short wagon for 8/8" sounds like magic :)
09:44:24 <Alberth> no doubt it's trivial if you know it
09:46:06 <V453000> eh it would be 4/8 engine + 4/8 wagon = 8/8 total
09:46:32 <V453000> all NUTS vehicles are 16/8 in total so it would just be 4/8 engine + 3x 4/8 wagons
09:54:33 <andythenorth> newgrf parameters should have a console option :P
09:55:00 <andythenorth> console is the antidote to all over-loaded GUIs
10:06:01 * Wolf01 returned to everyday life :(
10:09:04 <Alberth> the plane wouldn't leave without you?
10:09:38 <Alberth> fwiw, we're glad to have you back
10:11:29 <Alberth> andy: yep, people are too fond of 1000 words images where 1 word would suffice :)
10:15:24 <Wolf01> oh, the return plane was awful and I would have been really happy if it left without me
10:15:57 <Wolf01> I still have some back pain
10:18:18 * Wolf01 is logging into the bank account to check if the Kobe beef payment has been processed successfully
10:18:49 <Wolf01> 500€ one dinner for 4 people :P
10:20:33 <Wolf01> mmh, I think the web will be off limits for the entire day... steam, battle.net and windows 10 all updating
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10:23:09 <V453000> too many factorio saves on steam cloud? :P
10:27:12 <Wolf01> oh, I got kidnapped by the security at Schiphol, when the police station prepared my passport, they made a mistake with the plastification and it feels strange at touch...
10:27:36 <frosch123> andythenorth: we decidsd against Setting Trees för Ai/gs/newgrf before
10:28:33 <Wolf01> the funny part is "we made a mistake, but you shouldn't have any problem"
10:28:34 <andythenorth> no newgrf should ever need a settings tree....
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10:36:08 <V453000> how many parameters andythenorth
10:37:06 <frosch123> andythenorth: originally i also wanted to display the current production level as bonus
10:37:47 <frosch123> But it looked weird, soi changed it to an absolute percentage
10:38:28 <andythenorth> station rating should be deleted
10:38:45 <andythenorth> prevent industry opening, I don’t even know why I have that there
10:38:56 <V453000> yeah the station rating improving is just a cheat for no reason
10:39:01 <V453000> except andy likes to play with RVs :P
10:39:21 <Alberth> disabling breakdowns is also a cheat :p
10:39:22 <andythenorth> it was to enable using one long train per industry
10:39:35 <andythenorth> now I just always have a train waiting, 5 tiles :P
10:39:46 * andythenorth has smoked coop crack
10:40:28 <andythenorth> station ratings should be a separate grf tbh
10:41:33 <andythenorth> so +1 to deleting that?
10:49:01 <frosch123> Separate grf sounds fine
10:51:21 * andythenorth might not _make_ the separate grf :P
10:51:26 <andythenorth> more of a theoretical solution
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11:02:26 <andythenorth> “Prevent industries opening during gameplay"
11:02:32 <andythenorth> that is not trivial for another newgrf to do
11:02:41 <andythenorth> do I have to keep that?
11:07:04 <frosch123> Don't remove stuff for removal's sake?
11:11:08 <andythenorth> overwhelming number of parameters currently :)
11:13:17 <andythenorth> custom station ratings _can’t_ be a separate grf
11:13:21 <Alberth> ever looked at a basecost mod grf? :p
11:13:25 <andythenorth> it’s cargo-specific, and FIRS provides the cargos
11:13:48 <andythenorth> yes, basecost grf is terrifying
11:15:08 <V453000> it isn't that overwhelming when compared to the shitload of content firs has
11:15:13 <V453000> don't worry about too many parameters
11:15:23 <V453000> being able to see the behavior of industries is very good to have
11:15:33 <frosch123> What is cargo specific about it?
11:15:41 <andythenorth> it’s a callback from the cargo
11:15:49 <andythenorth> there is nothing specific to the cargos though
11:15:54 <frosch123> Isn't it the same for all cargos?
11:16:03 <andythenorth> another grf could override that for every cargo?
11:16:14 <frosch123> So, not firs specific
11:17:48 <V453000> would probably give more gung ho bonus
11:17:56 <V453000> but really, I would have to play and see
11:18:16 <V453000> if the defaults are working, then many parameters don't hurt at all
11:19:31 * andythenorth gives up starting quite often because it takes so long to set all the parameters, game settings, map options
11:19:51 <andythenorth> gamescript, town names, drive side, lang
11:21:41 <V453000> because the newgrfs you are using have not great defaults?
11:23:00 <andythenorth> mostly I made them, mostly they don’t have params
11:23:12 <andythenorth> if I want different behaviour, I recompile them
11:23:59 <andythenorth> frosch123: if mines and farms had same supply requirement, we could express it in actual cargo value?
11:24:15 <andythenorth> ports can just be 2x that as a special case, or whatever, player doesn’t really need to worry about ports
11:25:03 <andythenorth> parameter description could mention that ports need more
11:25:20 <Alberth> andy: do you want more "this industry can practically throw its production to the receiving industry" reports?
11:25:28 <frosch123> Yes, ports are the only weird thing
11:25:49 <andythenorth> the lower threshhold for farms could be historical
11:26:00 <andythenorth> now the clustering is wider, and the base production is higher
11:26:15 <frosch123> I guess displaying the farm amount is good
11:26:28 <andythenorth> I’ll unify farm and mine requirements
11:26:44 <frosch123> Don't talk about ports :p
11:27:50 <andythenorth> just a thing you have to learn?
11:33:08 <frosch123> I never bothered how much i delivered to a port
11:33:17 <andythenorth> so base requirements are 14 for farms and 21 for ports
11:33:33 <frosch123> Primary Industries are the important ones
11:33:37 <andythenorth> and gung ho is just 4x the base
11:34:17 <andythenorth> I am wondering about making them multiples of 8 or so
11:34:19 <frosch123> Weren't ports like 10x requirements?
11:35:03 <andythenorth> 24 / 48 / 96 / 192 / 384 / 768 and so on
11:35:08 <frosch123> I don't get your gungho comment then
11:35:37 <frosch123> Just make it a integer setting
11:35:47 <frosch123> Easier for everyone
11:36:10 <frosch123> A combobox is quite complex to code
11:36:49 <frosch123> Minimum 1, maximum 10k
11:36:56 <andythenorth> so absolute values?
11:37:06 <andythenorth> rather than a multiplier (1x, 2x, 4x, 8x) etc?
11:37:22 <andythenorth> I find the arrows weird to use on the integer inputs
11:37:27 <frosch123> Wasn't that the point?
11:37:31 <andythenorth> click, click, click, click, incrementing one at a time
11:38:23 <frosch123> Extend the description with a hint that you can doubleclick the row?
11:39:33 <frosch123> Anyway, those who want to change stuff in the first place also want to control all details?
11:39:59 <frosch123> Who would use presets?
11:42:55 * andythenorth often thinks that those who most want to control stuff should also learn to code :P
11:45:32 <Alberth> a lot simpler to wrap your head around
11:45:46 <frosch123> In my game i lowered enhanced, and increased gungho reqs
11:46:22 <frosch123> I would also recomment that for defaults
11:47:29 <andythenorth> what did you lower enhanced to?
11:49:13 <Alberth> hmm, micro-managing distributors go wild :)
11:49:20 <andythenorth> you had vehicles that small? o_O
11:49:37 <frosch123> While gungho required a lot of focus
11:49:42 <andythenorth> sounds like the older ‘deliver any’ behaviour that seemed to be hated :D
11:50:06 <frosch123> It was some heqs railmotor with cap 4 or so
11:50:51 <Alberth> andy: those who hated it can adjust it now :)
11:50:59 * andythenorth hasn’t used heqs for…some time
11:51:32 * andythenorth wonders if 16 and 128 are good thresholds
11:53:15 <andythenorth> 8x the required cargo for 2x the production :)
11:53:33 <andythenorth> but I might change the default production also
11:53:40 <andythenorth> 150% for enhanced
11:53:47 <andythenorth> dunno what for gung ho
11:58:10 * andythenorth wonders what the upper limits are for requirements express in crates
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12:10:03 * andythenorth wonders what timezone frosch is on
12:49:11 <Wolf01> mmh, I would like multi storey stations
13:10:41 <Eddi|zuHause> well, given his usual nighttime of 23:00 (+0100), it would mean he's now either +14 or -10 :p
13:11:20 <Eddi|zuHause> plus a bit of variation in night time, could be california or hawaii
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13:13:28 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, it's probably not california, too late there
13:14:55 <Eddi|zuHause> could also be new zealand
13:18:22 <Wolf01> or japan, maybe I even met him
13:19:20 <Eddi|zuHause> japan is probably too early
13:19:24 <andythenorth> does FIRS _need_ to show how much extra production you get for develiering delivering supplies?
13:20:03 <andythenorth> “…to increase production 360%…” is ugly
13:20:35 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but he probably doesn't go to bed at 20:00 :p
13:21:11 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Australia IIRC
13:22:34 <andythenorth> it’s 22:22 in brisvegas
13:22:53 <andythenorth> maybe he’s gone to see Pikka
13:23:01 <Eddi|zuHause> that could be also, but my brain cannot handle daylight shifts in the southern hemisphere :p
13:23:12 <andythenorth> I have a phone app for it :P
13:23:22 * andythenorth calls australia about 4 times a week
13:24:30 <andythenorth> does FIRS industry window need to show *any* information at all about production level / supplies requirement?
13:24:34 <andythenorth> can I just delete that?
13:27:07 <Eddi|zuHause> games which have no indication as to their mechanics are terrible
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13:45:31 <andythenorth> is it also terrible to have ‘increase by 360%'
13:45:38 <andythenorth> base production?
13:45:41 <andythenorth> current production?
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14:15:34 <Eddi|zuHause> but that's just a matter of HOW to display it
14:15:41 <Eddi|zuHause> not about not displaying it at all
14:17:28 <Eddi|zuHause> "production level: medium; next production level: 12/50 supplies per month"
14:20:01 <Eddi|zuHause> it's election day. the current government might be voted out. and no new government in sight.
14:20:37 <Eddi|zuHause> and the fun part is, the "current government" is already both the labour and the conservative party together
14:21:14 <Eddi|zuHause> if they both combined get <50%, you know something is not right :p
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14:45:30 <Wolf01> "Running biters over with a car or tank will make them aggressive in peaceful mode" meh... :D
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16:11:23 <andythenorth> ugh, the text stack
16:16:52 <Alberth> nml doesn't do magic there?
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16:26:06 <andythenorth> if I didn’t have example from frosch, I’d never have figured it out though :)
16:26:12 <andythenorth> needs OR and shift
16:32:26 <Alberth> sounds tricky for some text
16:32:45 <Alberth> :O 896 ton of metal from a steel mill :)
16:34:36 <Alberth> some idiot built it on a mountain, which is clear a bad place for such a thing :p
16:45:11 <andythenorth> 1000% production for gung ho is ridiculous :P
16:46:05 <andythenorth> 35000 items of livestock per month
16:46:22 <andythenorth> or it’s a bug eh?
16:46:47 <Alberth> hmm, must do supplies to the mill :p
16:47:04 <Alberth> but yeah, sounds a bit much-ish :p
16:47:34 <andythenorth> the supplies code is brain-numbing
16:48:31 <Alberth> 3500 does sound like a lot already as input
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16:52:02 <andythenorth> I don’t think the % boost is needed in industry window
16:53:48 <andythenorth> ^ I don’t think more than that is needed
16:54:10 <andythenorth> if player wants to know what boost, just watch the window for a month
16:54:17 <andythenorth> or check the parameter value they set :P
16:54:30 <andythenorth> or trust the defaults :P
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16:58:15 <Alberth> people like numbers :p
16:58:50 <Alberth> ever seen those city builder scripts? they just dump a silly amount of numbers in the window :p
16:59:28 <andythenorth> then the players ask what it all means
16:59:51 <andythenorth> I should put a note in the window: “It’s not about industry numbers, go and build some more trains"
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17:33:51 <andythenorth> dunno, I do prefer it with fewer numbers
17:34:05 <andythenorth> enough numbers in that window already
17:34:12 <andythenorth> not sure frosch will agree :|
17:36:19 <Alberth> yep, less numbers is better
17:44:01 * andythenorth invents evil FIRS
17:44:08 <andythenorth> ‘Enhanced’ production: 50%
17:44:13 <andythenorth> ‘Gung ho’ production: 25%
17:44:49 <_dp_> bad firs, won't get any supplies :p
17:45:58 <andythenorth> what’s the minimum sensible value for enhanced, as % of production?
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17:52:26 * andythenorth leaving a code mess :P
17:55:23 <_dp_> would make for a nice way of screwing up competitors xD
18:07:47 * andythenorth will now leave in embarassment, auto-complete fail
18:09:58 <andythenorth> in what kind of lexical sort ir ‘pl’ before ‘pe’ ? :P
18:15:20 <Alberth> sneakily hiding a few parameters :p
18:15:30 <Alberth> looks easy to understand to me
18:15:57 <Alberth> you mention the "three months" period in the supply crate counts?
18:16:10 <andythenorth> I’m not even sure that quite works
18:17:04 <Alberth> maybe we should have a "numbers" cargo :)
18:17:25 <andythenorth> required: 50 numbers
18:17:55 <andythenorth> I think this bit is done, but I’m not sure what to do about the ports
18:18:00 <Alberth> would make great cargo graphics :p
18:23:56 <andythenorth> currently the ‘amount required’ parameter doesn’t affect ports
18:24:03 <andythenorth> but the ‘amount produced’ parameter doe
18:24:18 * andythenorth might ship it that way and see what happens
18:25:08 * andythenorth wonders if this could have been two parameters instead
18:25:26 <andythenorth> 1) ‘Supply requirements: low | medium | high | very high | insane'
18:25:42 <andythenorth> 2) ‘Effect of supplies: low | medium | high | very high | insane'
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18:32:17 <Alberth> trouble is a bit what the base of gung ho is
18:32:41 <Alberth> is "low" relative to enhanced or to standard production?
18:37:13 * andythenorth can see no good solution :D
18:41:14 <andythenorth> maybe I split ports production template, for starters :P
18:41:17 <andythenorth> and take ports out of this
18:44:41 <Alberth> haven't played with ports yet, still working on the steel mill tracks :p
18:44:53 <Alberth> what is the problem with them?
18:45:41 <andythenorth> they use the same code for boosting production as mines, farms etc
18:45:55 <Alberth> it's a pity you cannot have some values be represented by a name :)
18:47:15 <Alberth> then you could have numbers, but have some nice name for some of them, indicating a sort of recommended value :)
18:48:05 <Alberth> how is using the same code a problem?
18:48:17 <Alberth> that's an internal issue right?
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18:49:11 <Alberth> ie I don't care if you have completely separate code for each industry or not :p
18:49:37 <andythenorth> it’s more that the behaviour is connected
18:49:44 <andythenorth> but not in a way that is easy to represent to player
18:49:56 <andythenorth> so farm needs 16 units for ‘Enhanced’, port needs 160
18:50:11 <andythenorth> farm needs 128 units for ‘Gung ho’, port needs 480
18:50:23 <andythenorth> they seem quite different to me
18:50:43 <Alberth> oh, you have only one enhanced setting
18:50:49 <andythenorth> ports have 3 input cargos, all of them tend to be quite widely available
18:51:03 <andythenorth> ports are ridiculously easy with lower requirements
18:51:09 <Alberth> make enhanced + gungho settings for ports?
18:51:40 <andythenorth> maybe that’s the only answer :)
18:52:10 <Alberth> you have less than 10 or so, doesn't look like a problem to me
18:52:23 <Alberth> as long as they have a clear meaning
18:53:24 <Alberth> you ever looked at the number of parameters of BB? :p
18:53:38 <Alberth> it's ridiculous for such a script :)
18:53:54 <andythenorth> I often find I have set them wrong :)
18:54:14 <andythenorth> the town cargoes goal params I always leave at default :)
18:54:15 <Alberth> defaults are fixable :p
18:55:12 <Alberth> the duration is too long perhaps, we didn't change it after modifying how it reacts to deliveries
18:57:20 <Alberth> but imho, ports parameters are clear in meaning. It also makes more clear that ports are different from normal industries
18:57:40 * andythenorth wonders if ‘Gung ho’ can always just be 2x ‘Enhanced'
18:57:47 <andythenorth> does anyone really need to change that?
18:58:01 <Alberth> yes for BB, first the duration was for total delivery, now it's time to the next delivery, always
18:58:29 <Alberth> likely they will need
18:59:12 <Alberth> you could reduce to one, as a multiplier from enhanced
18:59:22 <Alberth> but that saves you only one settings
18:59:56 <Alberth> not worth the additional limits that you add, imho
19:00:18 * andythenorth wonders if this can be one parameter total
19:01:15 <andythenorth> “Grim and mean” | “Harsh but fair” | “Reasonable” | “Generous” | “Gushing over"
19:01:25 <Alberth> make a list with every combination :p
19:01:45 <andythenorth> I was too embarassed to post that suggestion
19:01:49 <andythenorth> but I seriously considered it
19:01:58 <andythenorth> one parameter, compound options :P
19:02:41 <Alberth> would be nice to have it, for people that don't like tweaking numbers
19:02:57 <andythenorth> people who can tweak the numbers could also recompile :P
19:03:07 <Alberth> you could do suggestions for numbers in the description
19:04:07 <Alberth> nah, tweaking a number in a newgrf parameter window is not quite the same as compiling a newgrf, in particular for MP :)
19:04:55 <Alberth> release a firs for every setting combination :p
19:05:07 <andythenorth> I think I have to leave it alone for a bit
19:05:22 <andythenorth> the I have no (good) idea what to do with it, and the code is becoming spiders
19:05:56 <Alberth> :O much better than default
19:06:17 <andythenorth> it’s from Oz (not OzTrans), years old
19:06:19 <Alberth> mostly because I have seen that one for a lot of years already :)
19:06:23 <andythenorth> never made it into game though
19:06:26 <andythenorth> Dan repainted it some
19:06:54 <Alberth> lots of details in the chimneys
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19:09:25 <andythenorth> maybe supplies behaviour shouldn’t be configurable at all? o_O
19:10:59 <Alberth> then just skip opening the parameter window :p
19:11:02 <andythenorth> but even then...
19:11:15 <V453000> that is quite a nice steel mill indeed
19:11:23 <andythenorth> when I play NoCarGoal I want aggressive production from supply deliveries
19:11:39 <andythenorth> when I play Busy Bee, I want smaller amounts, Gung ho ruins my nice random networks
19:11:42 <Alberth> I think it's great you open up that mechanism, it makes people be able to tune the industry set
19:12:16 * andythenorth wonders how many people open the parameters
19:12:28 <andythenorth> and whether they ever discover economies
19:13:00 <Alberth> V can do a yeti advertisement for settung up firs parameters :p
19:13:50 <Alberth> you changed the default to "basic" in the climate they play, I hope?
19:14:44 <Alberth> but yeah, so many people are stuck in temperate, even in standard openttd :)
19:16:06 <Alberth> I wouldn't be surprised if some people don't know there are more climates :)
19:16:37 <V453000> yeti advertisement? :d
19:17:36 <andythenorth> I changed the default to Temperate Basic :D
19:18:01 * andythenorth awaits bug reports “I like the new sprites, but why did you delete all the industries"
19:18:35 <andythenorth> ‘parameters’ is not a _great_ word for that button in newgrf gui
19:18:49 <Alberth> point to website: see? not deleted
19:20:14 <Alberth> settings in newgrf settings??? :o
19:20:24 <andythenorth> even settings need settings :P
19:21:29 <V453000> instead of Parameters I would use Fuck Your Game Up
19:22:55 <Alberth> *beep* your game up :p
19:24:18 <_johannes> does someone know how to build headquarters?
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19:45:47 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27523 trunk/src/lang/latvian.txt (2016-03-13 19:45:37 +0100 )
19:45:49 <DorpsGek> latvian: 1 change by Jancs
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21:13:00 * andythenorth has a few tweaks to make
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21:13:18 <V453000> yeah something about the black furnaces doesn't fit FIRS
21:13:24 <V453000> but in general it is a great direction
21:13:41 <V453000> I think random bright pixels are the thing
21:14:00 <V453000> there are too many same-shade areas
21:15:00 <andythenorth> it’s obviously not same style I guess
21:15:27 <andythenorth> the brick building is a very old, crap sprite of mine
21:15:32 <andythenorth> and the chimneys need work
21:15:34 <drac_boy> actually I like the chimneys on that one :)
21:16:00 <V453000> the black one just needs some improvements
21:16:11 * andythenorth will cook, eat and improve
21:16:20 <andythenorth> I have ~1hr before sleeping is needed
21:19:22 * andythenorth drinks Czech wheat-free beer
21:19:25 <andythenorth> and thinks of V453000
21:19:58 <V453000> aren't you mixing up wheat and alcohol?
21:20:04 <V453000> would explain some problems in FIRS chains :P
21:20:42 * andythenorth couldn’t drink beer for 2 years, it was sad
21:20:51 <andythenorth> then I found wheat free beer, which is mostly crap
21:20:55 <andythenorth> but this Czech one is good
21:22:44 <V453000> btw what is the beer called?
21:23:12 <andythenorth> not exactly gluten, but I eat the same stuff as people with gluten thing
21:24:21 <andythenorth> probably quite niche :P
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21:54:13 <frosch123> andythenorth: the 'recompile' argument is not valid for multiplayer:)
21:54:36 <andythenorth> frosch123: where are you anyway? :)
21:58:56 <drac_boy> 16:59 here if that even matters ;)
22:01:15 <andythenorth> frosch123: so I’m currently ‘stuck’ on the production params, although it is shippable as it stands :)
22:01:25 <andythenorth> dunno if it’s good yet though
22:01:36 <andythenorth> but you probably need breakfast, not FIRS
22:02:43 <Alberth> it needs a breakfast industry too :p
22:02:55 * drac_boy throws some pixelated pancakes around?
22:09:27 <Supercheese> sounds perfect for Toyland
22:09:40 <Supercheese> Transport giant hotcakes on flatcars
22:10:19 <Supercheese> each refrigerated car has a single enormous stick of butter
22:12:24 <andythenorth> all too realistic
22:12:27 <andythenorth> these things exist
22:14:52 <Supercheese> giant hotcakes on flatcars?
22:19:07 <frosch123> andythenorth: without the numbers in the industry gui: does some random guy joining a aerver know what's going on?
22:20:18 <andythenorth> another parameter? o_O
22:20:31 <andythenorth> More Numbers | Fewer Numbers?
22:20:53 <frosch123> Taking a look at the newgrf settings for that seems weird, though it is probably also the case for other settings
22:20:59 <Alberth> the "easy for random guy at random server" setting :p
22:22:05 * andythenorth wonders about that :P
22:23:03 <frosch123> Nah, then firs also needs to disable town rating :p
22:23:21 <frosch123> I think numbers are fine
22:23:41 <frosch123> Kids should stay in school
22:24:56 <andythenorth> I am overwhelmed by the numbers tbh
22:25:01 <andythenorth> I just want to close the window :)
22:25:13 <andythenorth> maybe there’s some way to solve that though
22:25:29 <andythenorth> remove ‘Gung Ho’ and ‘Enhanced'
22:29:36 <frosch123> They need names for talking
22:30:08 <frosch123> But ok, skip the numbers
22:30:39 <frosch123> People also need to look up other settings
22:33:22 <andythenorth> something is unsatisfactory about all of it :)
22:33:28 <andythenorth> and I don’t just mean your patch :)
22:33:59 <andythenorth> maybe I should swap supplies for Yetis
22:39:23 <andythenorth> maybe it’s the ports :P
22:40:14 <andythenorth> should ports be just processing industries?
22:40:29 <andythenorth> output amount = delivered amount
22:55:08 <andythenorth> primary industries just produce in direct proportion to supplies delivered?
22:55:14 <frosch123> Nah, ports are an easy early way to supplies
22:55:20 <andythenorth> and player can set multiplier?
22:55:31 <andythenorth> supplies in = primary cargos out?
22:56:08 <andythenorth> I think I have to add the parameters for ports also maybe
22:56:15 * andythenorth trying to avoid that
22:56:25 <frosch123> The levels make it interesting to supply multiple industries
22:57:13 * drac_boy pokes flygon with a hot bone
22:57:23 <frosch123> Anything continuous would either send everything to one, or it would be way too hard to balance
22:57:59 <frosch123> Ports are imho not worth the params
22:58:17 <frosch123> Just give them 10x requirements
22:59:16 <andythenorth> 10x works for enhanced
22:59:25 <andythenorth> gung ho, not so much :)
23:00:50 <andythenorth> ports were always a hack :)
23:01:10 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, if you think it's going to be bad, it's actually even worse
23:01:24 <andythenorth> think I’ve found the limits of this particular hack, resp. code _and_ gameplay both
23:03:33 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> ugh, the text stack <-- the problem with the text stack is that it's not actually a stack. it has no "push" function
23:04:31 <andythenorth> is that why it never makes any sense to me :)
23:04:52 <Eddi|zuHause> but it mostly makes it annoying for me
23:05:36 <andythenorth> it’s a long time since I used it, but iirc it’s built as dwords, and (usually) read as words, so it has to be packed two values per register also
23:05:50 * andythenorth can’t remember, but saw some code for that today
23:06:02 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but you also have to manually count the registers
23:06:33 <drac_boy> anyway going make some supper for now
23:09:32 <Eddi|zuHause> election results kinda scare me. i should stop looking
23:10:21 <andythenorth> never read news before bedtime :P
23:10:28 <andythenorth> or first thing in the morning either
23:10:32 <Eddi|zuHause> that's like 4 hours away
23:18:43 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
continue to next day ⏵
