IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-03-06
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01:33:13 <drac_boy> that a long trolley?
01:33:16 <sim-al2> Seems that camshaft-style controllers can be found on DMUs too
01:33:31 <drac_boy> oh huh, interesting..maybe a commuter dmu re lot of stop-n-go
01:33:34 <sim-al2> Nah, Derby Lightweight British dmu
01:33:58 <drac_boy> would had been tiring to hold down the automatic brake bar on a long nonstop run otherwise
01:34:25 <sim-al2> 4 gear+neutral Electro-pnuematic gear selector on the right, 4 position electro-pnuematic throttle on the left
01:35:11 <sim-al2> These had a deadman valve on the throttle, the brake controller is missing but would be to the right of the gear selctor
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01:36:26 <sim-al2> Choose to maintain compatibility with the coaches, since these were built in the mid-to-late 50's when lots of steam engines were still around in the UK
01:37:21 <sim-al2> Since air is needed for the controls, they had compressors and exhausters driven by the engines (and almost all had two engines per power car)
01:37:47 <drac_boy> tbh I always found the whole vaccum-vs-air transition rather interesting...
01:38:21 <drac_boy> did you know that even the prototype Deltic was sent on a brake test and it took rather a long time to come to a full halt with vacuum which clearly pointed to the need for air brakes instead? :)
01:38:54 <sim-al2> Vaccum makes sense for steam engines, as it does save the complexity of an air compressor (at the expense of the development that had already been made on air brakes)
01:40:07 <sim-al2> But it's fairly terrible for diesels, as fairly specialized exhausters were needed, and the working pressure of a vaccum brake is far lower than air brakes, so you need bigger brake cylinders, reservoirs, etc
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01:42:09 <sim-al2> I believe most of the dual-fitted diesel locomtives actually used air for their own brakes, with the vaccum system controlled in parallel for the train
01:42:15 <drac_boy> yeah I agree re diesel/electric having air
01:44:15 <drac_boy> actually I believe it was some hill-to-dockside electric railway that had the early use of regenerative brakes too ... small steeplecab-ish locomotive is all I can recall right now
01:44:38 <drac_boy> they were interested in it when the train hauled by electric instead of steam managed to stop in a shorter length
01:44:57 <sim-al2> Strangely enough, compared to the US Budd DMUs, these regualarly towed coaches and even freight cars, despite having mechanical transmissions
01:45:37 <drac_boy> well tbh if it was not supposed to haul wagons then it shouldn't be called a MU ... ;)
01:45:44 <drac_boy> just my own nitpick heh
01:45:58 <drac_boy> railbuses on the other hand often are designed to run slo or with one specially matched coach
01:46:01 <sim-al2> Well, it's definetly a DMU, with powered cars and control trailers
01:47:59 <sim-al2> The maximum load is not very high, a set with two power cars and a trailer car is only rated for 35 tons
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01:48:12 <drac_boy> the VT98 was interesting one tho...always could either find one running alone or in varying mismash such as power-cab or power-trailer-power-cab etca
01:51:13 <drac_boy> btw you want know something else?
01:52:32 <drac_boy> the pre-rdc were a funny hodgepot brunch .. some of them rather ran just by themself their whole life while others were always finding themself being treated like a light locomotive instead re hauling anything (even a no-passengers-tonight coach Brill being found shoving grain hoppers around the silo track wasn't out of the question
01:56:05 <sim-al2> Yeah, gasoline-electric railcars appeared on branch lines, and were generally successful, but there were accidents
01:56:31 <sim-al2> Naturally the ones where the fuel ignitied were particularly ugly
01:58:35 <sim-al2> Those untis weren't particuarly powerful either
01:58:40 <drac_boy> btw many of the Brill's were actually converted to diesels (sometimes even ones out of a truck, but for occassional low-speed running this doesn't seem like a surprise) either due to the gas radiators being a pain and/or for fuel economization
01:59:26 <drac_boy> well the brill usually could be had with about 100-400hp depending on age and whether rebuilt or not so for a quiet branchline this was plenty enough
01:59:55 <sim-al2> Truck engines aren't uncommon in DMUs, although the newer ones often had more specialized designs than the 50's/60's designs
02:00:36 <sim-al2> It seems the Model 55 had 68hp
02:01:56 <sim-al2> Refitted from 1934 onward with a 102hp Gardner diesel, one with a Duetz later on
02:02:14 <drac_boy> I checked, even a ge 44-ton had 2*180hp on most orders .. and wiki doesn't have a page for the lighter under-44ton models but I imagine it was much less power
02:02:53 <drac_boy> so the brill had its place as a improper "passenger one route then shove a boxcar or two another day" I suspect heh
02:04:43 <drac_boy> heh is it just me or the Model 55 looks like it carries its tiny engine under the nose instead of mid-chassis?
02:05:42 <sim-al2> Yeah, I think it's up front
02:06:24 <sim-al2> A lot of the gasoline-engined railcars are built that way, often single-ended too
02:06:51 <sim-al2> I suppose that turning facilities weren't a problem
02:07:41 <drac_boy> well many of the late usa ones had the engine sitting around the interior if not small enough to sit under-chassis ... but of course the exhaust was usually somewhere over the cab roof end
02:08:40 <drac_boy> on the other hand there were at least one or two railroads that ordered some (it was a small builder I don't recall name of now) vehicles that looked like stretched bus rebuilt with rail chassis instead .. even had a chain-connected manual transmission that needed a strong arm to operate too :-s
02:09:09 <drac_boy> at least they lasted for a while as a cheap one-man (instead of steam locomotive with separately conductor-ed coach) passenger service
02:11:27 <drac_boy> d&rgw at least knew how to built decent if not unusual looking passenger/freight combo railtrucks .. and their transmissions didn't need a big arm to operate heh
02:11:51 <sim-al2> There were some early attempts at buses that could operate on both road and rail
02:12:15 <drac_boy> and yes it *was* a fullsize boxcar that they reused
02:12:53 <drac_boy> where the road axle should had been was a chain drive to the rear rail bogie instead .. usually both rear axles were powered
02:14:32 <drac_boy> not surprisingly for d&rgw some of these units had to carry a fullsize plow in a nod to the mountain-amount snows
02:18:26 <drac_boy> I'm sure the driver must had laid on the horn a bit there :)
02:20:06 <sim-al2> Hmm, that track looks a bit... rough...
02:21:02 <drac_boy> what do you expect from a narrow gauge line thats only made for 20-50kph anyway? :)
02:24:04 <drac_boy> and from the look of that hood's suggestive engine age I imagine it didn't run that fast so apparently 3 coaches wasn't a burden on its small output
02:26:28 <drac_boy> and are these mirrors I see over the front wheel fenders?
02:30:11 <drac_boy> and um are these turn signal bezels turned into red panel instead?
02:30:12 <sim-al2> The railway is still operated by DB today
02:31:19 <sim-al2> Yeah, their were attempts to produce railbuses from bus parts, but the ones that appeared during the 60's and 70's were often mostly buses with rail underframes
02:31:53 <sim-al2> The Pacers, Class 141-144, do share a lot of bus parts, but had to go with a slightly more conventional body
02:32:07 <drac_boy> anyone want to take a cue from the nickname Bouncy Castle or even Pogo Stick?
02:32:22 <sim-al2> Unfortunatly, a combination of being 4 wheel and having poor suspension makes for a bad ride
02:33:07 <drac_boy> actually you remind me of another thing with uk dmu/emu's ...
02:33:13 <sim-al2> I'm sure people are alarmed that there's a proposal to rebuild them rather than replace...
02:34:18 <drac_boy> there was one that went by the class 422 or 442 (I forgot now) .. and they had composition tires (instead of standard steel ones) plus the fact that there was a corresponding signal bellcode for "train running away on right line" ... turns out these poor units slipped a lot on leaves so they could be found overshooting
02:34:44 <drac_boy> weird how the class # turned out to match perfectly with a bellcode for some strange reason
02:36:42 <sim-al2> Hmm, 442 is the high speed 80's units, 422 is the code for the 4-BIG, nothing about different wheels
02:38:32 <drac_boy> hm might be another number off...oh well I don't recall where this old website was...
02:39:06 <drac_boy> I do recall that one of the class 16* something was literally called a T*rdo and the explanation given was "well what did BR expect?"
02:39:18 <drac_boy> I'm not sure I get it but I'm no english person tho :)
02:41:47 <drac_boy> oh btw I found it again from a forum list .. I was thinking of 455 which seem to be short for Four Slide Slide
02:50:17 <drac_boy> either way don't think I got anything more to add about dmu/railbus now :)
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02:59:27 <sim-al2> Heh, thought those were train conductor bell codes for a second, got very confused
03:06:24 <drac_boy> seem they did that a few times, even one photographer got an example of a standard 91 trainset being led by a third flat-facing 91 cab unit 0_0
03:11:41 <sim-al2> It seems a little strange that they expected those to pull freight trains at night and still make it back to their trainset in time for day services
03:14:27 <sim-al2> I guess it's useful if the DVT blows up though
03:14:52 <sim-al2> Nevermind that the orignal DVTs were actually HST power cars at introduction
03:20:37 <drac_boy> btw about running in certain directions...
03:21:12 <drac_boy> I never understood why they always kept putting pairs of 20's together *with* the flat end leading .. whatever happened to extra protection by mashing them cab-to-cab instead of nose-to-nose?
03:26:21 <ello> Anyone????????????????????????????
03:27:33 * drac_boy smacks the impatient ello just cause
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08:44:16 <_johannes> is it true that, regardless of how many newgrfs you've loaded for your game, the maximal amount of cargo types is 32?
08:44:40 <V453000> migh be, ask andythenorth :)
08:48:44 <andythenorth> iirc, cargos get redefined subject to grf order
08:48:53 <andythenorth> with sometimes weird effects
08:48:55 <_johannes> what happens if you have more than 32 cargotypes, counting all newgrfs together?
08:49:27 <andythenorth> some will be over-written
08:50:09 <andythenorth> there are 32 slots with numeric IDs
08:50:31 <andythenorth> if your grf puts coal in 1, and mine puts fish there
08:50:40 <andythenorth> one cargo will be over-written
09:10:21 * V453000 remembers YETI making towns produce livestock :>
09:10:26 <V453000> is actually realistic.
09:10:59 <V453000> btw andythenorth I ended up re-modelling the whole train XD
09:11:06 <V453000> scaling borkd, concept improved
09:18:23 <andythenorth> pictures or didn’t happen :P
09:18:32 * andythenorth is going to trick V453000 into a preview
09:18:46 <andythenorth> and…then the set will die because you get bored of it :D
09:22:16 <andythenorth> April 1 gets ever closer :(
09:26:01 <V453000> won't make it in 1m :)
09:26:23 <V453000> if I am redoing it, no preview :P
09:27:19 <V453000> it won't die; it would be more likely if I had continued with a solution I am not convinced about
09:28:08 * andythenorth must finish FIRS 2
09:28:13 <andythenorth> or wait another year
09:30:17 <V453000> btw my train set will use zero can_attach_wagons
09:33:24 <andythenorth> what does can_attach_wagons do?
09:34:13 <V453000> restrict which engines can haul which wagon, and spit errors in case they are incompatible
09:34:46 <andythenorth> why would that be good ever? :)
09:35:04 <V453000> express vs freight etc
09:35:26 <V453000> each class has own wagons
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09:41:24 <V453000> but if you want each class to have it's own wagons with it's own benefits, it is understandable way ... also makes sense in the way that wagons don't totally switch appearance/performance when you attach them to different class
09:41:33 <V453000> for new users, it is very bad
09:41:45 <V453000> but if done systematically like NUTS, you learn it quickly
09:41:53 <V453000> still, shitload of restrictions ain't helpful
09:42:09 <V453000> I will just use switches to change graphics and performance when necessary now
09:42:15 <V453000> put anything to anything
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10:28:41 * andythenorth must make FIRS eh
10:30:51 <_johannes> do we have a function that converts CargoLabels int const char* strings or std::strings?
10:31:11 <_johannes> I know it's easily done, but if there's a function, I'd like to use it
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11:26:05 <andythenorth> ships annoy me so much
11:26:29 * andythenorth is not even playing, just found some screenshots of FISH development
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14:17:05 <_johannes> Hmm my openttd does not find opensfx anymore
14:17:23 <_johannes> though it's installed via package manager
14:17:55 <_johannes> oh nvm after restarting it found it oO
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15:27:03 <drac_boy> little question for anyone around europe area....did they ever use turntables on early diesel locomotives or it was probably more or less just an american thing?
15:48:00 <Alberth> /me wonders how the engine kind is related to storing many engine in one building
15:49:19 <drac_boy> alberth, half of the times its not about storing :)
15:49:45 <Alberth> I can settle for the other half :p
15:50:18 <drac_boy> even dual-control units still went through turntables sometimes, I dunno why but suspect its probably to do with wanting a certain hood length on return trips
15:52:51 <Alberth> tbh I wouldn't expect train handling operations to change because someone invented a new power system
15:53:33 <Alberth> but I don't know about the use of turn tables
15:53:55 <Alberth> I have seen them here, so they were either invented or imported here :)
15:55:03 <drac_boy> looks like it used to be pre-csx steam if that roundhouse is indeed an old building
15:56:23 <Alberth> it wouldn't make sense to build it there if the tracks were planned as they are now :)
15:57:57 <drac_boy> talk about saving several many feet of track space requirement by compressing the switchback track and turnout into a short length
15:59:00 <drac_boy> even Noch has one working model for HO scale trains too ;)
15:59:15 <drac_boy> (or its easy to scratch your own together heh)
16:02:44 <drac_boy> although I know a few existed at wagon works too (long enough for one new wagon plus a tiny tractor shunter)
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16:26:17 <drac_boy> going off for now so have fun alberth :) and hey don't look for too many locomotives? hehe
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18:03:28 <V453000> andythenorth: today I thought about 2 more features that will be awesome and you personally will like. :P it is happenin
18:06:04 <Alberth> \o/ awesome features!
18:06:45 <Alberth> self-expanding tracks? :)
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18:15:59 <V453000> basically I found ways how to do some of NUTS mechanics in a sensible way that doesn't look WTF
18:16:19 <V453000> one could ALMOST say realistic!
18:21:19 <Alberth> I guess things change when you get a regular job :p
18:28:06 <andythenorth> V453000: ‘ALMOST’
18:28:11 <andythenorth> like the sun is a bit hot
18:28:44 <V453000> Alberth: my last job was definitely a lot more regular than the current one :)
18:29:32 <Supercheese> Now instead of fixing bugs, he's rendering them ;)
18:32:26 <V453000> and realism x sensibility aren't really the same thing either ;P
18:32:38 * andythenorth wonders how high (z index) industries can be
18:34:30 <V453000> sufficient answer? :D
18:34:47 <V453000> some yeti stuff is probably pretty tall
18:36:17 * andythenorth is trying to achieve maximum realistic wtf
18:36:49 <Supercheese> if you want maximum wtf to be realistic, just get the government involved
18:37:01 <Supercheese> they have a monopoly on WTF, and are sadly all too real
18:38:06 <V453000> andythenorth: just try :)
18:38:18 <andythenorth> trying is the thing, right
18:39:33 <Alberth> building from lego could be a bit of a problem
18:39:47 <Alberth> loads of good colours
18:40:28 <Alberth> hard red and hard blue don't conflict at all :p
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18:55:37 <_johannes> is there an openttd screensaver?
18:56:34 <_johannes> where from one map, random trains are followed for ~ 20 seconds
19:01:18 <V453000> I remember a discussion about something like that for the menu screen
19:10:00 <Alberth> loads of YT videos doing that (longer than 20 seconds though)
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19:38:27 * andythenorth needs the OGFX steel mill
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19:53:55 * V453000 is wondering what does andythenorth want on OGFX steel mill
19:54:02 <V453000> is there any uglier OGFX industry?
19:54:04 <andythenorth> funny you should ask
19:54:30 <andythenorth> wanted the furnace
19:54:39 <andythenorth> I fixed it a bit
19:54:50 <V453000> ok that might be the only ok bit XD
19:57:18 <andythenorth> I want a different key colour for this industry
19:58:00 <V453000> I find the long industry layouts weird tbh
19:58:01 <andythenorth> I have used brown a lot recently
19:58:06 <andythenorth> it’s just a test layout
19:58:12 <V453000> brown is nice for smelter I think
19:58:31 <andythenorth> maybe it’s right, and I’m just bored of 3 in a row brown
19:58:40 * andythenorth considered red, but ugly
19:59:13 <V453000> where is frosch the CC nazi
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20:20:27 <andythenorth> now I need some massive wtf tower thing
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20:48:19 <FLHerne> Spent almost a year doing [other stuff], but I'm back to trying to build a grf-editing tool now
20:48:25 <FLHerne> <Eddi|zuHause> it's really simple, actually. enable the bounding boxes (Ctrl+B if you have newgrf developer tools enabled). find the corner of the bounding box that is invisible. that need to be the coordinates for your offset
20:49:02 <FLHerne> <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Relative to the top corner of the sprite? <Eddi|zuHause> yes
20:49:24 <FLHerne> I've tried following that, but it doesn't seem to give the same results as the game :-/
20:50:47 <Eddi|zuHause> things might be more complicated for shortened vehicles. i don't really remember
20:50:49 <FLHerne> The NML example road vehicle has offsets -14, -7, but the ingame bounding box seems to have offset -16, -6 according to those rules
20:51:05 <FLHerne> I think the NML one is standard-length?
20:52:47 <FLHerne> Alberth: Horizontally, there's nothing to crop, I think cropping it vertically would be different in the opposite direction?
20:54:07 <FLHerne> Perhaps I should see how it comes out for other lengths/directions
20:54:09 <Alberth> depends on the side being cropped
20:54:26 <V453000> FLHerne: why do you care about bounding boxes?
20:54:54 <V453000> I always just put vehicles in game, see how it looks, adjust offsets if necessary (usually is)
20:55:05 <Alberth> original image + offset/size has all the non-transparent pixels at the same place as cropped image + adjusted offset/size
20:55:08 <V453000> bounding boxes are a nice hint but ...
20:55:20 <FLHerne> V453000: So that the user can drag a bounding box over the vehicle sprite and have their offsets automagically calculated
20:55:31 <FLHerne> Which only works if I can do the calculations right :P
20:55:57 <FLHerne> And yes, I know this is a terrible idea that'll probably never work out. Don't warn me ;-)
20:55:59 <V453000> very brave and valiant :D
20:57:24 <andythenorth> FLHerne: write it in python, if you don’t mind
20:57:36 <andythenorth> then if it works, I can stop fighting offsets :(
20:57:50 <V453000> I need to learn python too, fucking blender
20:59:12 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Yes, although PyQt is such a completely unpythonic set of wrappers that half of it might as well not be :-/
21:01:54 <V453000> ^ andythenorth, offsets will haunt you till death
21:02:20 <FLHerne> Okay, so the sprite aligner thinks it ends up with -14, -7 too (accounting for it being broken in 1.5.3), so it's not just an NML thing
21:03:10 <FLHerne> Problem is, the point on the bounding box that apparently should be offset 14px across and 7px down from the top-left of the sprite seems to be completely arbitrary
21:03:30 <FLHerne> It's not a corner (including the invisible one), nor the middle
21:04:08 <FLHerne> Perhaps I should just shrug and define the apparently-arbitrary point without thinking about it :P
21:09:32 <Alberth> for testing, the origin isn't relevant
21:10:10 <Alberth> I would expect the newgrfspecs to define it though
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continue to next day ⏵
