IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-02-27
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01:35:24 <drac_boy> what would you had called these fictional trains that often are squashed shorter than they normally would had in reality? I'm thinking 'toon' but just had to ask tho
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01:42:33 <drac_boy> lkinda fun way to have a long-looking train in short space :) .. just wonder if classify it as 'toon' or rather some other word :)
01:43:27 <sim-al2> They'd be nice for small radius track (although 4 wheels might mess than up)
01:43:45 <drac_boy> well radius wouldn't really matter, its the joiners you have to be mindful about
01:44:23 <drac_boy> but two piece of flex track in oval shape...well....that is an easy way to really tight with the joiners only being on the short straightway sections :)
01:45:24 <drac_boy> mind you even N scale has a similar thing which is very popular in japan but can be found in a few outsider suppliers too ... one moment I'll get it for you
01:47:21 <drac_boy> and yep theres even some toonish container wagons too :)
01:48:38 <drac_boy> homemade modifications is quite easy as its basically only two chassis for 100+ different products (powered and unpowered) .. just a few special ones such as the steam locomotive have non-standard chassis tho
01:48:58 <sim-al2> Yeah, tight radius curves make landscaping with regular cars rather interesting
01:49:30 <drac_boy> why do I know this - because I've actually looked into buying a bunch of these trains from an english-friendly japan webstore someday, just not yet tho :)
01:51:56 <sim-al2> Hmm, locomotives look about normal scale, those wagons are defintely short though :D
01:53:00 <drac_boy> ah yeah..still look at that express trainset being able to fit into the shed track almost :P
01:54:03 <drac_boy> one small footnote if you would: if you want a portable N scale layout in small space, don't bother with kato unitrak...go with tomix instead
01:54:27 <drac_boy> kato basically only have broad radius for most things but tomix has tracks and even some turnouts with very short radius to suit the smaller trains
01:54:38 <drac_boy> kato is american-ish which isn't a surprise
01:56:50 <sim-al2> Wow, that little piece is 30* arc
01:59:45 <drac_boy> well scale trains always have something unrealistic :P
01:59:57 <drac_boy> not to mention the "hand of god" or other jokes around that kind of thing
02:04:11 <sim-al2> I suggest you look at about 5:00 in that video too
02:19:24 <drac_boy> so what're you doing atm anyhow?
02:35:49 <ST2> sim-al2 drives a chinese/japonese/korean train and where those things are wrong
02:36:48 <drac_boy> tried some bve or something a long time ago, funny that it still seem a bit familiar
02:37:01 <drac_boy> I knew it looked too chunky to be msts anyway :)
02:37:28 <sim-al2> TBH, most of the routes look better than anything in MSTS before like 2007
02:38:20 <sim-al2> And that's for the converted routes, nevermind the newer ones
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11:26:55 <Wolf01> did you manage to articulate it properly?
11:27:03 <Alberth> would be quite unique, at least
11:27:39 <andythenorth> Wolf01: yeah, it’s articulated ok
11:27:46 <andythenorth> not perfect, but good enough
11:29:03 <frosch123> whats the thing in the front?
11:29:29 <Alberth> /me guesses watertank
11:32:07 <andythenorth> and more water behind
11:32:43 <Wolf01> water gets depleted in no time, more is better
11:36:44 * andythenorth implements that in IH
11:41:14 <andythenorth> harder than I thought
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11:59:21 <Wolf01> does it bend in the middle of the tank?
12:00:12 <Wolf01> maybe in the point where is the notch just right the black part
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12:08:32 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe needs a shorter scale
12:12:42 <andythenorth> two of them make 3 tiles
12:14:07 <andythenorth> I think it’s too long tbh
12:14:55 <AdmiralKewl> super long trans-continental trains maybe?
12:16:24 <andythenorth> I need to scope a random switch to first part of an articulated vehicle
12:17:08 <andythenorth> i.e. I want same random bits for all articulated parts
12:17:41 <andythenorth> I have to count?
12:22:12 <andythenorth> I have to count :P
12:22:24 <andythenorth> my code says I encountered this before
12:23:03 <Alberth> it also tells you the solution? that would really nice of it
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12:23:35 <Eddi|zuHause> position in vehid chain % total length
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13:06:25 <frosch123> i think we have a variable "position in articulated vehicle"
13:07:44 <andythenorth> I recall talking about it
13:08:22 <andythenorth> my IDs are sequential, incremeing by 1 from lead part, and so I just solved it in the compile
13:16:24 <andythenorth> the depot view has merged an engine and a freight car
13:16:31 <andythenorth> and I can’t separate them at all
13:24:19 <smint> any openttd developer here ?
13:25:38 <Alberth> just ask the question usually works better
13:26:52 <Alberth> so much for sequential IDs, andy :)
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13:29:59 <smint> Ah ok. here it goes then. I'm looking for a simplest way how to use the in game events for generating messages that would be sent (in a predefined format) to a web location via json or with other data type. That would require to probably script some events like train Y has arrived, departed from station X , loaded 10 persons, unloaded 20 persons and so on
13:30:40 <Wolf01> mmmh, why nobody told me that translating before drawing would simplify A LOT the things?
13:30:40 <smint> I would like to create a super dense scenario that would help me simulate real traffic and populate our DB with real time data for analysis
13:31:54 <Alberth> that's a lot of detail
13:32:37 <smint> I could have a external app programmed ancapsulating it into right format but I need to get it out of ttd
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13:33:33 <Alberth> there is an admin port thing, but afaik it's more oriented towards higher level monitoring
13:34:10 <Alberth> my guess is that "simplest" would be printf() in the source code at the right spot
13:35:01 <Alberth> not sure it would be useful, it's a lot of data
13:35:55 <smint> I need a lot of data generated to simulate real life environment - 1000 events per second roughly
13:36:19 <smint> I was thinking if any of the api's have a way to tap into this event handlers
13:37:09 <Alberth> afaik external connections don't go down to train arrivals and cargo movements
13:37:33 <Alberth> even Squirrel scripts don't work at that level
13:37:45 <Alberth> ie the AI and game scripts
13:38:36 <Alberth> you can eg ask for cumulative cargo deliveries since the last time you queried, but that's the lowest I know
13:39:04 <Alberth> but that API doesn't get outside
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13:40:24 <smint> too bad really - i thought there might be something out there that woulc allow such external monitoring
13:40:39 <Alberth> openttd itself also doesn't have a reason to do so, it doesn't add to game play, and it needs its CPU power for running trains
13:41:24 <smint> I know it is way beyond orignal intentions ... I want to use it as a simulator rather than a game
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13:42:52 <Alberth> you're not the first to try that :)
13:43:19 <smint> you know anyone that succeeded ? :)
13:43:49 <Alberth> for some value of "success", sure they have :p
13:44:20 <Alberth> but you're one of the first to want generating stuff for outside the engine, at least at this level of detail
13:44:58 <Alberth> I'd start with a few simple "printf" calls to generate a data stream, and go from there
13:45:55 <smint> perhaps that is not such bad idea
13:52:09 <andythenorth> drawing trains is fun
13:52:16 * andythenorth should have made a train set years ago
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15:15:30 <_johannes> once you've started a game, and later think that you'd like to enable some newgrf trains, is it somehow possible to make them available?
15:17:30 <_johannes> I have a very old map, and now I really miss some new trains on it
15:17:52 <_johannes> can't it be easily done by binary hacking?
15:18:06 <_johannes> or writing a small converter?
15:18:23 <andythenorth> YOU CAN ENABLE SOME TOOLS!!
15:18:36 <Alberth> newgrf and other game data is very much intertwined
15:18:37 <_johannes> just need trains :)
15:18:49 <Wolf01> developer tools + resetengines, but don't report problems
15:19:14 <_johannes> what kind of problems are expectable?
15:19:48 <Alberth> anything between no problem, a crash, to seemingly working until xx years later something wonky happens
15:20:01 <Wolf01> usually it's like when you are sitting on a chair and somebody takes it
15:22:14 <Alberth> data gets spread to everywhere, it's not just adding a few more entries in a table
15:23:17 <_johannes> I can not imagine what kind of data you're talking about...
15:26:47 <_johannes> a different question: does sending a train into the depot cost money?
15:27:03 <_johannes> i.e. do I pair for the people repairing the train and making it more reliable?
15:27:39 <Alberth> unless you have an autoreplace or autorenew set for it :p
15:27:46 <_johannes> i.e. there are no disadvantages if I keep a train all day long in a depot?
15:28:06 <_johannes> you mean if it stands there 20 years, it gets renewed without a good reason?
15:28:11 <Alberth> hmm, maybe you pay running cost
15:28:53 <_johannes> no, I tested it, it does not cost money
15:29:06 <_johannes> the reliability goes down, but it goes up if the train leaves again
15:29:37 <Alberth> autorenew may only work when you enter the depot, or if you press some button on the depot, but not sure
15:30:08 <Alberth> I tend to leave the trains driving around :)
15:30:44 <_johannes> I thought about shunting trains... they would, most of their time, wait in a depot
15:30:52 <_johannes> and as it seems, it does not harm too much
15:30:53 <Alberth> running cost may be controlled by newgrf iirc, so different sets may have different ideas about it
15:31:41 <Alberth> they age, mostly, which influences rating of a serviced town a bit
15:32:15 <_johannes> you mean passengers dislike it if I send old trains to their stations?
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15:33:50 <drac_boy> sorry had some issues last night, hope didn't miss anything major :->
15:34:12 <_johannes> I'm fine, how're you?
15:34:35 <drac_boy> doing ok for now, just going between online and re working on some plastics a bit
15:34:38 <drac_boy> not much else for today yet
15:37:36 <_johannes> so it is only relevant if the train's age is less than 3?
15:37:43 <_johannes> my most trains are way older...
15:37:50 <drac_boy> of course I guess a porsche carrera has nothing to do with the game but ah well :->
15:40:12 <Alberth> maybe use the supercars newgrf? :)
15:44:10 <andythenorth> drac_boy: you did miss quite a lot
15:44:16 <andythenorth> it was sad that you couldn’t be here
15:44:39 <drac_boy> alberth heh guess that maybe would be indeed funny after all. a car with only room for 3 passengers
15:45:35 <Alberth> is very nice 1st class transport :)
15:45:48 <Alberth> I think in RL it might even work :)
15:46:11 <drac_boy> well RL at least has the concept of taxi services :p
15:48:35 <Alberth> RL people are too lazy :)
15:49:04 <drac_boy> or you always can go to a few countries (I recall at least italy and united arab) for an example of super cars being used as police cruisers
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15:51:59 <andythenorth> which looks odd in game
15:52:12 <andythenorth> because “bigger = stronger”
15:53:37 <Alberth> different technologies
15:54:25 <Alberth> if people complain, you can always blame reality :p
15:55:00 * andythenorth is making a problem out of nothing :)
15:55:10 <andythenorth> current Iron Horse already does this multiple times
15:55:16 <Alberth> well, it should have some niche usage
15:58:57 <drac_boy> alberth heh well 1937 and 1973 dates are very far apart even for the game? even then I probably would had been keeping the G17 for as long as their profits were doing nice but thats me :)
15:59:40 <andythenorth> the steam loco has more tractive effort, the diesel is faster and has more HP
16:00:22 <andythenorth> in RL the steam engine had many wheels to spread weight
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16:00:31 <andythenorth> they rebuilt the track for the diesels to take more weight
16:00:38 <andythenorth> that detail I *do not* want in game :P
16:02:10 <drac_boy> but heh yeah I don't think rail weight should be a factor in the game .. speed limits seem more than reasonable enough infill for now
16:06:33 <andythenorth> maybe that diesel should be longer
16:15:03 <drac_boy> I think so, two of them shouldn't be still looking shorter than the G16
16:15:27 <andythenorth> two of them are same length
16:15:55 <drac_boy> 48ft for G16 vs 34ft or 68ft for 91
16:16:16 <drac_boy> just my thought anyway
16:16:56 <drac_boy> always could insert a few pixels between the radiator and cab and see how that works
16:18:15 <andythenorth> I think I leave it
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16:47:01 <drac_boy> oh almost forgot, there any particular reasonable limit on rail vehicle size and/or length?
16:47:22 <drac_boy> (I recall the size was somewhat capped to avoid tunnel/bridge issues if thats right)
16:50:53 <andythenorth> pikka has double-height pax cars that don’t clip in tunnels afaict
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17:27:33 <drac_boy> going make some lunch now but thanks anyhow. guess will see what happens to the sprites later
17:33:02 <_johannes> is it possible to get a tile with TRACKDIR_BEGIN in IterateTiles ? that probably should not happen, right?
17:34:21 <_johannes> ah nvm, it's a memory bug
17:34:53 <Eddi|zuHause> TRACKDIR_BEGIN is just another name for one of the trackdirs, right?
17:36:21 <_johannes> it seems to be only used for iterating over them
17:39:52 <Alberth> TRACKDIR_BEGIN = 0 <-- Doesn't look like a valid track :)
18:02:08 <_johannes> can the costs of Yapf be negative?
18:02:18 <_johannes> I think I just got this as an output...
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18:03:43 <Eddi|zuHause> no, pathfinder costs can never be negative
18:03:48 <Eddi|zuHause> you get endless loops that way
18:04:29 <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: good point, since it's an A*, but might there be some post-computations on the nodes that modify their costs?
18:04:53 <Eddi|zuHause> what would that do?
18:05:18 <_johannes> hmm don't know, though I don'T see such computations
18:09:37 <Monkey_> why do we not have volcanos in this game?
18:10:30 <Monkey_> it could be an industry, geothermal energy :P
18:11:15 <frosch123> ottd up to 0.6 had seismic activity
18:11:17 <Monkey_> well uranium making batteries work too i suppose in yeti :D
18:11:29 <Monkey_> what happened to have it removed?
18:12:20 <frosch123> the ai was replaced with a better one
18:12:59 <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: ok, I just read a comment saying negative costs are allowed for the start tile :)
18:13:34 <Monkey_> and volcanos were never coded back in i assume
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18:15:36 <Alberth> nobody coded an AI that did random terraforming :)
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19:14:44 <andythenorth> I have questions
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19:32:37 <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: that should probably read "you can have negative weights for tiles that you can never enter". which basically still amounts to "you cannot have negative weights"
19:33:25 <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: yes, that's probably the idea... the start node will never be entered
19:33:36 <_johannes> I still wonder why 0 does not suffice for the start node
19:33:46 <_johannes> but there's probably a good reason
19:34:46 <Eddi|zuHause> you should still make sure that all weights are >0
19:39:06 <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: all other nodes I've tested have weights > 0
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