IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-02-18
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00:00:49 <_dp_> corner is kinda weird thing to save though imo
00:02:35 <Eddi|zuHause> it's just what it always was, and there was never enough reason to change
00:10:01 <_dp_> I'd assume that people are usually looking at center of the screen not corner
00:14:02 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: sure, but realize that a) when the game was released 20 years ago, it came only in one resolution, and b) most individual people only play with the same resolution, so they hardly ever notice the system behind it
00:14:15 <Eddi|zuHause> there are two main cases where it comes up: 1) the title screen competitions, and 2) making a scenario where the introduction screen matters
00:14:53 <Eddi|zuHause> an example for 2) is the USA scenario, which starts out in the sea off the east coast, with instructions to scroll west
00:17:29 <_dp_> I was thinking of centering players on their town in cb
00:18:00 <_dp_> still can assume that they have at least 1000x750 or smth but centering would be better
00:18:07 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not really going to work
00:19:39 <Eddi|zuHause> you'd have to intercept the join package, and quickly scroll to the location before the network savegame gets made
00:19:59 <_dp_> intercepting enough packets already :p
00:20:15 <_dp_> also can patch saving code
00:20:18 <Eddi|zuHause> then assume a minimum resolution of 640x480
00:22:29 <_dp_> if I center it for 1000x750 it will still be on screen for 640x480 so that's fine
00:24:52 <_dp_> there is another issue though
00:25:56 <_dp_> was thinking of automatically claiming some town when player starts company, but that wouldn't work if he joins as spectator first
00:27:37 <Eddi|zuHause> you could react to the company creation packet then?
00:28:01 <Eddi|zuHause> there is definitely an interface for presenting dialog boxes
00:28:29 <_dp_> but can't scroll viewport since savegame is already loaded
00:28:38 <_dp_> can dialog box scroll view?
00:29:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know. you could place the HQ and make the player click the "view HQ" button?
00:29:18 <Eddi|zuHause> there might be something more specific about this that i don't know
00:29:18 <_dp_> btw, is there a way to show standard error window? that small read one
00:30:25 <_dp_> haha, main cause I'm doing it is for players that don't know where "place hq" button is, and "view hq" is the same one xD
00:30:50 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: tried checking how the tutorial script does it?
00:31:20 <_dp_> no, didn't even know there is such script)
00:31:32 <_dp_> learned to play in 1995 xD
00:34:51 <_dp_> hm, how to select script from online content? I only see local ones
00:35:42 <Eddi|zuHause> what do you mean?
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00:36:30 <_dp_> trying to crate game with tutorial gs, in gs configuration window from main menu I can only select local gs
00:36:57 <_dp_> even though there is "check online content" button I don't see any way to select script I downloaded there %)
00:41:22 <_dp_> ah, it's just tutorial gs, others do appear in list
00:43:44 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, yes. it's hidden and can be only accessed if you download the scenario associated with it
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00:44:49 <_dp_> yeah, figured that much, now trying to locate where did it put scenario %)
00:45:47 <_dp_> it desperately needs a tutorial on how to run this tutorial xD
00:49:22 <_dp_> for some reason had to restart openttd for it to show up in file tree
00:54:10 <Eddi|zuHause> you should open a report for all of these interface issues :ü
00:58:52 <_dp_> I lost my faith in those kind of issues :p
01:04:55 <_dp_> tutorial does it with GSViewport.ScrollTo and ofc it can't be used in multiplayer
01:10:55 <_dp_> considering making a patch to add smth like GSViewport.ScrollCompanyTo
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01:14:41 <supermop> yellow path signals has the (side?) effect of causing trains to crawl at 40kmh in the block before a station stop
01:14:57 <supermop> even if that block is miles of single track
01:21:29 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: you can't scroll a company's view, as there may be multiple people in the same company
01:22:17 <_dp_> why not scroll them all?
01:22:18 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: yes, i meant to make a post about my thoughts on that patch, but i think i got distracted
01:22:51 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: no, scrolling is a client thing, not a company thing
01:23:04 <supermop> i guess i'd like a 3 aspect signal that doesn't look so far ahead, but in this case that wouldn't help
01:25:14 <supermop> i guess you'd need a non-path path signal, that says "try not to wait here, but slow down if i am yellow"
01:25:14 <_dp_> so what? scroll all clients that are in said company
01:25:14 <_dp_> ofc will need to add network command for that to work
01:25:14 <supermop> or some other means of signalling single track effectively
01:25:14 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: if you want to do that, you can just loop over all clients in the company
01:25:14 <_dp_> it doesn't really matter for my case actually
01:25:14 <_dp_> I just couldn't think of any gs function that works with clients
01:31:00 <_dp_> all gs api revolves around companies, can't see any client at all
01:33:09 <supermop> this also discourages 'nicer' station throats, as a pair of switches taking up 3 tiles vs an X taking up 1 leads to much longer at 40kmh
01:46:36 <supermop> for now i'm going to change single yellow speed to 80kmh
01:47:01 <supermop> i trust the instant brakes of my ottd trains
01:47:39 <_dp_> I didn't get those yellow signals at all. It's train deceleration that's broken, not signals.
01:48:17 <_dp_> may be somewhat helpful in few cases but superfluous in all other
01:52:30 <_dp_> well, signals aren't very realistic either, but that's part of game design
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02:11:52 <supermop> well the extra lights look pretty
02:42:19 <Eddi|zuHause> have you ever read through old forum topics, and thought "hey, that sounds like something i would write", and then you look over and see "hey, i DID write that"
02:48:18 <supermop> i guess it requires his SPAD model for decelleration as well?
02:48:33 <supermop> or a choice of deceleration models?
02:49:32 <Eddi|zuHause> the braking distance would just be used as an estimation, an emergency brake would still get the train to stop faster
02:51:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i think SPAD is taking the simulation too far, i would not play with that
02:53:22 <supermop> it would be fun now and then
02:54:13 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it would not.
02:54:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i would disable train crashes completely, if i could.
02:56:07 <Eddi|zuHause> turn crashes into breakdowns. keep the effect on ratings
03:08:20 <supermop> yeah, every crash being a total write-off is frustrating
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18:02:32 <qwebirc26667> i just accidently started an ascii verison of openttd in a ssh'd terminal, does anyone know how to exit it? it's vim all over again :P
18:05:18 <Alberth> accii version of openttd?
18:06:03 <Alberth> just ^C will work if you started it from the command line
18:06:38 <Alberth> another option is to suspend the job, and then kill it
18:07:02 <Alberth> a third option is to log in again with another terminal and kill the process from there
18:11:37 <qwebirc26667> had to kill it from a 2nd terminal, cheers
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18:21:25 <andythenorth> needs a roster name
18:28:27 <Alberth> s/:FIRS/:EVERYTHING/ ?
18:31:19 <Alberth> /me confuses economies with rosters :(
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19:45:45 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27509 trunk/src/lang/unfinished/frisian.txt (2016-02-18 19:45:36 +0100 )
19:45:47 <DorpsGek> frisian: 60 changes by BAJansen
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20:10:57 <Wolf01> do trains in US travel both sides on double tracks as they want? I'm watching a video and the train is one time on the left track, one time in the right track... one time there are 2 trains going in the same direction in both tracks
20:17:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know about america, but in germany that is possible if the track/signalling is specifically prepared for it
20:18:56 <frosch123> doesn't it also depend on speed and distance between the tracks?
20:20:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so
20:20:21 <Eddi|zuHause> that may influence whether trains may meet in a tunnel
20:20:28 <frosch123> vehicles cannot drive fast too close to each other
20:20:47 <frosch123> the air movement pulls them close to each other
20:20:50 <Eddi|zuHause> but that also applies to trains going in different direction
20:21:14 <frosch123> as far as i know that pulls them away from each other
20:21:16 <Eddi|zuHause> probably even more so, as the relative speed difference counts
20:22:19 <V453000> trains suck, everybody hates trains anyway
20:22:27 <V453000> ships is where stuff is at
20:33:55 <andythenorth> Wolf01: lots of US track is signalled bi-directional
20:34:03 <andythenorth> or not signalled at all, but uses centralised control / warrants / track authority
20:34:36 <andythenorth> or the video might be showing you passing loops
20:34:41 <V453000> andythenorth: what new horse ideas?
20:34:56 <andythenorth> no gameplay ideas, just Africa-ish trains
20:34:59 <andythenorth> to go with Africa-ish FIRS
20:40:06 <V453000> /me would prefer gameplay ideas over negro technologyez :P
20:48:37 <Rubidium> Wolf01: in the Netherlands it's technically possible on almost all but a few sections of track to drive against the standard driving direction, although it usually only happens in rare cases that they run against the default direction
20:49:06 <Rubidium> what I have seen, on a section with 5 tracks next to eachother that 3 trains were driving in the same direction almost next to eachother
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20:54:12 <Rubidium> in any case all double track routes in the Netherlands are effectively too busy to even allow driving the "wrong" way for a significant distance
21:00:41 <argoneus> can anyone here into economics?
21:00:46 <argoneus> probably not very related to trains
21:01:00 <argoneus> I'm wondering how fiat money like gbp or dollar initially got their value
21:01:07 <argoneus> seems like I have to get a degree just to understand this
21:02:54 <frosch123> how did bread initially get a price?
21:05:18 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: the value, of course, got taken out of thin air. the tricky part is making other people believe it has that value
21:05:55 <argoneus> I just find it hard to believe that people went
21:06:07 <argoneus> "well we have this british pound and you can buy more for it than with 1 dollar"
21:06:11 <argoneus> and americans just went "ok nice"
21:06:19 <argoneus> frosch123: I have no idea
21:06:35 <argoneus> whoever was selling it gave it a value
21:07:26 <ckraniak> I believe the general idea is that the availability of currency X sets its value
21:07:44 <ckraniak> But I'm not an economist
21:08:03 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: if you mean historically, the value of a coin was mostly driven by its silver/gold content
21:08:09 <frosch123> argoneus: isn't it weird that water costs about 2€ per m³ in europe, while it is way more expensive in israel?
21:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause> if you made a bigger or purer coin, it was worth more
21:08:22 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: yeah that's true
21:08:23 <frosch123> why don't you just buy water in europe and sell it in israel?
21:08:25 <argoneus> there's no gold standard anymore
21:08:40 <argoneus> frosch123: don't people do that though?
21:08:47 <argoneus> exporting stuff they already produce just to buy it cheaper from foreign countries
21:09:04 <frosch123> yeah, but what do you do with all she shekels?
21:09:17 <frosch123> can you buy water here for shekels?
21:09:18 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: if you mean more modern, there were some conferences about "this is the exchange rate that we want, we're tweaking wheels here or there to keep it that way"
21:10:49 <argoneus> frosch123: if you exchange them back
21:10:52 <argoneus> you can still make a profit though
21:11:00 <argoneus> you never break even
21:11:07 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: for example the swiss national bank had an expensive program to keep the EUR:SFR rate within certain limits
21:11:31 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: they cancelled that suddenly about a year ago, which made the rate immediately explode
21:12:48 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: in modern times, exchange rates are mostly defined by more people buying or selling
21:14:01 <andythenorth> one of the most awesome collective delusions
21:14:10 <andythenorth> and it works too
21:14:15 <argoneus> how does something like bitcoins get its value then?
21:14:23 <argoneus> one day you can barelly buy a pizza with it
21:14:28 <argoneus> and suddenly you can buy a car
21:14:32 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: by people buying or selling them.
21:14:46 <argoneus> so if demand for bitcoins spikes
21:14:49 <argoneus> then their price spikes too?
21:15:01 <andythenorth> notionally a bitcoin was supposed to be worth at least the computing cost of mining it
21:15:04 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: whenever there is viral news about bitcoin, the price goes through the roof because loads of people buy it
21:15:17 <argoneus> so if I was some super rich oil sheikh
21:15:25 <argoneus> what stops me from buying tons of bitcoins at X value
21:15:29 <argoneus> and when it spikes sell them for X+Y
21:15:37 <argoneus> like, create my own demand
21:15:49 <Eddi|zuHause> nothing? that's how you get insanely rich or insanely poor at the stock market
21:16:12 <argoneus> it's this thing called investing
21:16:12 <andythenorth> that’s how it works
21:16:23 <frosch123> no, it's called speculation
21:16:40 <frosch123> investment is, if you think it makes money on its own
21:16:51 <argoneus> isn't speculation a bit different?
21:16:53 <frosch123> speculation is, if you think you can sell it later for a better price
21:16:55 <argoneus> I buy some stocks expecting them to spike
21:17:05 <argoneus> I don't make them spike myself by creating absurd demand from day to day
21:17:19 <argoneus> or do I still have it wrong
21:17:21 <Eddi|zuHause> no, investment is if you buy stocks expecting them to naturally grow
21:17:36 <Eddi|zuHause> speculation is when you buy stocks expecting them to fluctuate
21:18:16 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: at usual stock markets, there are measures in place to prevent hugely spiking values to be taken off trades
21:18:30 <Eddi|zuHause> too many negatives
21:18:53 <andythenorth> what is speculative investment?
21:20:32 <Eddi|zuHause> the key difference is that the investment part gets pumped back into "the economy", whereas the speculative part is purely circulating within this stock bubble
21:21:49 <argoneus> this is too complex for me
21:22:16 <Eddi|zuHause> there was this stock market in chicago for agriculture goods
21:22:45 <Eddi|zuHause> and at some point they split apart the trading between people who were actually trying to buy cargo, and the people who just wanted to speculate
21:22:57 <Eddi|zuHause> and the speculating part was orders of magnitude higher volume
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21:25:59 <andythenorth> pork belly futures
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22:37:22 <supermop> it's a commodities market
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