IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-01-29
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02:54:42 <klote> i have a question regarding dedicated server settup
02:55:31 <klote> I got a citybuilder server setup which requiers the client to build a HQ
02:55:49 <klote> they are able to replace the HQ every time
02:55:56 <klote> how do i dissable this?
02:56:06 <klote> i cant find this in the Settings
03:00:05 <klote> and another question regarding ingamescripts im looking for a Long goal script a simple goal where people need to reach a certain ammount of company value in order to win the game
03:00:58 <klote> If it exists in the list i cant find it or dont know the right name for this script
03:01:30 <klote> lol k wel u atleast awnsered :P
03:03:44 <Mazur> Unlike the ogthers, I am awake and at my computer.
03:07:34 <Mazur> Yes, OpenTTD is mostly EU, some Oz, some US.
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04:56:16 <Supercheese> The land of Slow Internet
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12:40:32 <debdog> do vehicles perform any actions (loadin/unloading) at stations which were added automagicly to the oders (implicit orders)?
12:40:47 <debdog> or do they just drive through?
12:46:51 <debdog> hmm, is there a way to prevent this?
12:47:24 <debdog> yes to "pass through" or "yes to "perform action"?
12:47:48 <Pikka> implicit orders aren't real
12:49:31 <debdog> don't need a demon for that (yet) ;)
12:52:03 <peter1138> use "non-stop" orders to stop vehicles from using unscheduled stops
12:52:06 <argoneus> good morning train friends
12:52:10 <Pikka> an implicit order just means that the train stopped at that station last time round, but the station wasn't in its orders. You can avoid their appearance altogether by doing that thing peter said.
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13:12:38 <planetmaker> debdog, the 'implicit orders' tell you what the vehicle actually does, thus where it stops. You can change that by using non-stop goto orders (or not using the non-stop option)
13:12:46 <planetmaker> for the real orders in the list
13:13:29 <planetmaker> thus the purpose of the implicit orders is not so much that they are orders, but rather information for you to tell you what your orders (also) imply additional to what you explicitly ordered the vehicles to do
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14:20:41 <debdog> all right, thanks for all the explanations, I think I've got it now!
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15:09:32 <openbu> I'm studying NML 0.4.4
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17:39:10 <Wolf01> This site requires Sun Java 6.0.0.1 (32-bit) or higher. You have Macromedia Java 7.3.8.1¾ (48-bit). Click here [link to java.com main page] to download an installer which will run fine but not really change anything.
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18:58:36 <andythenorth> someone is wrong on the internet
18:58:54 <andythenorth> Wolf01: so how much do you think Volvo license adds to price of 42030? :P
18:59:00 <Wolf01> the entire internet is wrong
19:00:09 <andythenorth> probably it actually reduces the cost per set
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19:00:35 <andythenorth> Lego will have had extensive access to Volvo equipment and brand assets
19:00:44 <andythenorth> Volvo get publicity they couldn’t otherwise buy
19:00:47 <Wolf01> oh, right, Volvo != Disney
19:02:28 <Alberth> nice supply yard, andy, hadn't see that one yet
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19:37:26 <andythenorth> so anyone else got pypy?
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19:41:08 <andythenorth> pypy3 to be precise
19:42:12 <roidal_> that triggered a hilight on my client
19:42:16 <roidal_> pypy is one of my nicks :P
19:42:31 <roidal_> and no, iam using the standard CPython interpreter
19:43:06 <andythenorth> for seeing how nmlc performs with different pythons
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19:46:15 <roidal_> A compiler from NML code to NFO and/or GRF files. – GRF is the file-format for TTD content?
19:46:44 <roidal_> to be honest i never digged into the technical details about it
19:46:53 <roidal_> does it contaim some sort of program-code?
19:47:24 <andythenorth> it contains a higher level language, borderline pseudo code
19:47:49 <andythenorth> I don’t know the exact term, it’s somewhere between markup and a language
19:48:00 <Eddi|zuHause> GRF is the bytecode, NFO is the assembler code and NML is the high level language
19:48:33 <roidal_> and what exactly is handled by that bytecode?
19:48:55 <roidal_> and does the grf-files contain content (graphics, ...) too?
19:49:32 <andythenorth> there’s branching logic, and graphics
19:50:47 <Eddi|zuHause> roidal_: the bytecode is a not-turing-complete language that basically can read a variable and then branch off into different cases. this can handle simple things like deciding which graphics to display for a vehicle, or more complex things like storing cargo and producing at different speeds and ratios for industries
19:51:00 <andythenorth> what Eddi|zuHause said
19:51:03 <frosch123> roidal_: grf contain decision trees to pick graphics and properties of stuff depending other stuff
19:53:35 <roidal_> frosch123: and where are this graphics stored?
19:53:50 <roidal_> and the NML-compiler is written in python?
19:54:05 <frosch123> grf is just a single file
19:54:30 <frosch123> it contains everything
19:56:32 <Mazur> Life, the Universe, and Everything.
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20:01:34 <Milek7> can you reply to my last comment?
20:03:11 <frosch123> what should i reply?
20:04:13 <frosch123> settings should be consistent and not conflict or contradict each other
20:04:44 <frosch123> i do not know any details about changes to the rating either
20:06:39 <roidal_> hm, was GRF, NFO and NML developed by the openttd team, or undertaken from TTD?
20:06:59 <frosch123> roidal_: i see at least 4 parties involved
20:07:20 <frosch123> which overlap in various parts
20:07:37 <frosch123> ttd has grf version 1, which only has graphics
20:07:43 <Milek7> enabling new option only ignores rating when building
20:07:47 <frosch123> ttdp extended it to contain decision trees
20:08:02 <Milek7> and calculating still works, so this setting not contradict council attitude
20:08:04 <frosch123> ottd extended it to version 2 containing 32bpp graphics and zoom levels
20:08:22 <frosch123> nml was developed independently
20:08:34 <frosch123> today everything that still exists is maintained by ottd devs
20:08:52 <Milek7> but, if it is required i can add new option to council attitude
20:09:00 <Milek7> which completly disables calculation
20:11:39 <Eddi|zuHause> TTDPatch also invented the NFO language
20:12:07 <roidal_> may i ask if there is some high-dpi mode planed? not only for the menus but for the whole game?
20:12:21 <Eddi|zuHause> whereas the NML inventors came from the OpenTTD community
20:12:43 <frosch123> roidal_: isn't 4x zoom quite high-dpi?
20:12:56 <Eddi|zuHause> also, NFO and GRF existed before the OpenTTD project was even started
20:13:08 <frosch123> it's too big on a fhd screen, so it should be fine on a qhd one
20:14:06 <roidal_> maybe i should be more specific, i meant graphics with higher resolution (not color but pixels)?
20:14:15 <roidal_> because on 4x zoom its very...you know :D
20:14:34 <Eddi|zuHause> 4x zoom is pixels, has nothing to do with colours...
20:14:37 <frosch123> roidal_: either you missed something since 2012, or i do not understand you
20:14:41 <roidal_> Eddi|zuHause: the developement-history seems much more complicated as it looks from the first view
20:15:41 <frosch123> for the most part of it
20:16:14 <roidal_> frosch123: which graphic-files are used for that?
20:16:32 <frosch123> that is from the unfinished/unreleased brix
20:17:16 <frosch123> there is also zbase (controversial), rawr, and some none-landscape things
20:21:16 <Milek7> frosch123: what do you think about adding setting controlling bribe detect propability?
20:22:24 <frosch123> it sounds like something 1 in 100000 users would care about
20:23:21 <Alberth> nah, much higher, it's a way around the town authorities :p
20:23:57 <Alberth> unless you only want to increase the probability, Milek7 :)
20:23:59 <frosch123> Alberth: smatz had the idea to make the scenario editor work in multiplayer
20:24:02 <frosch123> it would solve many issues
20:24:56 <Alberth> or is there a big need for MP scenario editing?
20:24:56 <frosch123> no authority, rivers, town growth
20:25:05 <frosch123> no industry closing
20:25:24 <Milek7> that would be rather popular feature, as many people hate local authorities ;)
20:26:17 <andythenorth> unrestricted sandbox?
20:26:33 <Milek7> currently there are many setting that can be considiered as cheating
20:27:06 <Milek7> and nobody see problem in it
20:27:35 <Alberth> we'd like to remove them, but users think they are required
20:27:48 <Milek7> like disabling breakdowns
20:28:08 <Alberth> disabling breakdown was in the original
20:28:50 <Milek7> original developers were permitted to add cheats to settings, but openttd no?
20:29:33 <roidal_> Alberth: on which settings are you thinking?
20:30:38 <Alberth> none in particular, or rather all
20:30:56 <Alberth> for every setting, there is a group of users that thinks it's essential :)
20:31:27 <frosch123> roidal_: almost every release moves some settings to a more hidden place
20:31:35 <roidal_> no, i mean, which settings you would like to remove?
20:32:22 <roidal_> frosch123: whats the motivation behind that
20:32:39 <frosch123> because noone, who knows what they do, switches them
20:33:04 <frosch123> only clueless people try them, and then complain about some(the intentional) effect caused by it
20:33:28 <frosch123> who would disable freeform edges?
20:33:45 <frosch123> all that the setting causes is people complaining that they cannot set the map borders
20:33:59 <frosch123> who would set max map height to 255?
20:34:13 <frosch123> the mapgen only generated to a certain size for a certani mapsizte anyway
20:34:25 <frosch123> and setting the max height higher breaks arctic and tropic climate
20:34:31 <frosch123> because snow and climate fail
20:34:40 <Milek7> assuming that user is stupid is bad idea
20:34:43 <roidal_> especially the map height got raised only some time ago?
20:34:51 <Milek7> especially in open source project
20:35:25 <frosch123> why? it is "open source", not "open user"
20:35:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Milek7: the idea is to reduce the amount of support needed, which fills the forums with useless threads and binds community time
20:35:39 <frosch123> Milek7: anyway, good luck running the support hotline
20:36:00 <frosch123> Milek7: in a company you hire a 1st level support
20:36:10 <frosch123> Milek7: in open source the developers jump out of the window
20:36:50 <frosch123> Milek7: if you have noticed, there are constantly news about the "bad attitude"/ranting in open source
20:37:12 <frosch123> Milek7: that's because developers are directly confronted by users, and have no 1st level support protecting them
20:37:58 <roidal_> on the other hand sometimes this produces much better results than with L1 support
20:38:46 <roidal_> many times the give you answeres that you know that the L1 support have no real idea of the technical problem
20:39:15 <frosch123> roidal_: the best thing was when we removed to option to change grfs in game :) it transformed "dozen of bug reports" to "dozen of complains on the forums". which was a huge improvement, since the "community" could answer them :p
20:41:16 <frosch123> [20:38] <roidal_> many times the give you answeres that you know that the L1 support have no real idea of the technical problem <- you get good answers to unique questions. you get rants for common questions :)
20:41:41 <Alberth> 10 days away, and the project is dead :p
20:41:52 <V453000> I actually did stop lately
20:42:06 <frosch123> yup, was a great post :)
20:43:00 <argoneus> tbh the map height should be 512
20:43:21 <frosch123> yeah, that would add a completely new interpretation to map rotation
20:43:43 <V453000> I think that as long as we have original acceleration and 2way PBS as defaults, any discussion about settings is pointless
20:44:19 <frosch123> ah, true, i forgot about those
20:48:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure acceleration was already in my settings review oh so many years ago, and it wasn't accepted for some reason
20:48:50 <andythenorth> ugh 1st level support
20:48:53 <andythenorth> that’s a horrible idea :)
20:49:01 <andythenorth> developers do support, bugs get fixed
20:50:22 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the whole point of 1st level support is to fetch out the cases that are not bugs at all.
20:55:38 <andythenorth> what about the ones where it’s not a bug, but failure demand?
20:56:08 <glx> there are procedures to follow to detect a real problem :)
20:57:05 <andythenorth> failure demand goes away faster if developers see it
20:57:09 <frosch123> Milek7: roidal_: btw. it's not only on open source. the youtuber totalbiscuit quit community interaction this week for like the third time. everytime it's like him almost jumping out of a window
20:57:18 <andythenorth> why spend money on support monkeys who can’t actually solve any problems
20:57:26 <andythenorth> just to make the customer’s problem get resolved more slowly
20:57:58 <frosch123> it applies to everything where someone is personally invested, and then gets confronted by a crowd with other opinions
20:58:58 <frosch123> [20:57] <andythenorth> why spend money on support monkeys who can’t actually solve any problems <- it's for the cases where the developers cannot solve the problem either
20:59:25 <andythenorth> seems like double handling
21:00:30 <andythenorth> one case has a revenue cost paying non-value adding stuff perpetually to not actually solve problems
21:00:51 <andythenorth> the other case accepts a lot of waste for some high-value developers, but pays off problems, reducing the total cost of them over time
21:01:17 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there is a reason why "have you tried turning it off and on again?" is a running gag
21:02:15 <andythenorth> I don’t do the support
21:02:24 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: also, not every injury needs a specialist doctor
21:02:27 <andythenorth> but I’m not exactly armchair theorising either
21:03:07 <glx> and a many customers call the support for something totally unrelated
21:03:13 <andythenorth> FIRS compiles faster, but Iron Horse compiles much slower
21:03:18 <andythenorth> and Road Hog won’t compile at all
21:03:31 <andythenorth> Alberth: try it :)
21:03:44 <roidal_> FIRS, Iron Horse and Road Hog = ?
21:03:46 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, like the guy a few days ago here, who asked about a coop server
21:03:49 <andythenorth> python 3.2, 3.4 and 3.5 are all much of a much
21:04:00 <andythenorth> but pypy3 is highly variable compared to 3.x
21:04:03 <Eddi|zuHause> and it took quite a while to figure out that he's talking about some completely unrelated game
21:04:49 <andythenorth> I think chameleon is substantially slower in pypy3
21:04:50 <Alberth> firs, iron horse, and road hog are regularly discussed here :)
21:05:01 <andythenorth> but nmlc I *think* is much faster, at least for some cases
21:05:16 <andythenorth> hard to profile, a lot goes on in the compile
21:05:24 <Alberth> now the challenge to stay in those cases :p
21:05:43 <andythenorth> with primed cache, FIRS compiles in about 28s with pypy3
21:05:49 <andythenorth> compared to 50s with py3.x
21:06:00 <roidal_> Alberth: now we know that i don't read regularly here :P
21:06:12 <andythenorth> if I change code, the primed cache times stay around 30s
21:06:28 <andythenorth> if I change a png, it’s equivalent to destroying the cache
21:06:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you haven't got your dependencies right then
21:06:59 <roidal_> andythenorth: the nmlc is written in python3?
21:07:16 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I don’t feed anything to the nmlc cache, it’s automatic
21:07:20 <Alberth> roidal_: well, it was python2, and converted to python3
21:08:16 <roidal_> yes, most python-programms running more than a few seconds should benefit from the jit included in pypy
21:11:51 <roidal_> python > perl!!! (flamewar start :D)
21:12:05 <frosch123> not in this channel :p
21:12:10 <frosch123> this is solid python ground
21:12:19 <Eddi|zuHause> that flamewar is not going to find fruitful ground in here :p
21:12:24 <frosch123> you only have chances for git vs hg
21:13:00 <roidal_> frosch123 | this is solid python ground <- like that
21:14:06 <frosch123> ocassionaly you can find a ruby guy
21:15:41 <Eddi|zuHause> git is terrible for people who don't already know git
21:16:08 <andythenorth> so how have I broken road hog / nmlc?
21:16:20 <andythenorth> play again? Y | N
21:16:26 <andythenorth> insert more coins
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21:17:21 <andythenorth> this food processor accepts fruit and nuts
21:17:28 <andythenorth> I should add cocoa beans
21:17:32 <andythenorth> and produce chocolate
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21:17:39 * andythenorth don’t even like fruit + nut
21:18:58 <Milek7> so no chances for bribe proability option?
21:19:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i watched a contest once: "which is better? vim or emacs?"... and *SPOILER* sed won
21:19:22 <roidal_> frosch123: did you mean emacs > vim?
21:20:42 <frosch123> roidal_: emacs and perl are weird. i never meet people who use either of them
21:20:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Milek7: the general consensus is that there are way too many options...
21:21:02 <Eddi|zuHause> the knights who use vi?
21:21:51 <roidal_> Eddi|zuHause: from germany?
21:22:10 <frosch123> roidal_: eddi is from home
21:22:50 <roidal_> 'zuHause' -> german :>
21:22:58 <roidal_> frosch123: thats nice! :D
21:23:52 <Alberth> could start using $ in Java identifiers :p
21:23:53 <Eddi|zuHause> roidal_: if you pick a random person from the nick list, you have about 1/3 chance he's german...
21:24:58 <roidal_> the chance on your nick seems to be greater
21:28:55 <roidal_> don't wanted to interupt the tries to start a flamewar ;)
21:31:36 <Milek7> Eddi|zuHause: many options is good
21:32:05 <Milek7> anyone can set to that setting which he likes
21:32:55 <Wolf01> uhm, V453000, I just found your spring bridge... in an anime
21:44:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Milek7: settings generally divide the population in 3 parts: 1) people who want to enable the setting, 2) people who want to disable the setting, and 3) people who get confused about the overwhelming number of settings they don't understand
21:45:21 <Milek7> bribing detection propability is not any confusing setting
21:45:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Milek7: and as the size of #1/#3 or #2/#3 approaches zero, the setting becomes useless
21:45:54 <Milek7> more confusing is for example acceleration model
21:46:02 <Milek7> and "original" model is complete nonsense
21:46:29 <Eddi|zuHause> but that is not an argument FOR your setting
21:47:43 <Milek7> if you don't want new simple setting, why for example you not remove all settings, because they are only confusing new pepole?
21:49:20 <andythenorth> what new setting is wanted?
21:49:48 <Milek7> bribe detection propability
21:50:33 <andythenorth> just patch it to what you want and recompile
21:50:36 <andythenorth> no setting needed
21:50:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Milek7: because some settings actually do divide the community fairly evenly into #1 and #2 categories
21:51:27 <Milek7> but i want to use it on multiplayer
21:51:42 <Milek7> and desyncing when bribe is detected on client is not good idea :D
21:52:00 <Milek7> it can be only in configuration file
21:52:11 <Milek7> it dosen't must be in gui
21:52:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Milek7: you're still not having a very strong argument, against a development community that gets increasingly conservative
21:53:51 <Milek7> but. it. is. one. small. setting.
21:54:06 <Milek7> there is a much more completly useless settings
21:54:15 <andythenorth> Milek7: you just need someone with commit rights to sponsor it for you :)
21:54:39 <andythenorth> these things never happen by convincing someone who is opposed via argument
21:54:40 <roidal_> maybe offering a donation for that setting? :D
21:55:15 <roidal_> however you want to call it
21:55:26 <andythenorth> if you get a 6, your setting is allowed
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22:00:56 <Rubidium> just put it differently, which constants in OpenTTD's code should not be a setting?
22:02:20 <frosch123> you can increase the chance by lining out a convincing concept, which is not just "this setting disabled something which i don't like, and i don't care what happens with other stuff related to that"
22:03:10 <Milek7> what do you mean by " i don't care what happens with other stuff related to that"?
22:07:22 <roidal_> maybe such settings should be changeable via the console?
22:08:05 <roidal_> so there is no visible option for inexperienced players
22:08:42 <roidal_> but its changeable for those who know what they do?
22:09:05 <roidal_> or maybe a hidden menu like the cheats-menu?
22:09:22 <frosch> roidal_: there exists already a cheat which does essentially the same
22:09:29 <frosch> just that cheats are not allowed in mulitplayer
22:09:51 <Milek7> cheat changing bribe detect propability?
22:10:40 <Milek7> there is magic bulldozer, but is does many other things than destroying city buildings
22:10:46 <Milek7> and bribing requires cash
22:11:17 <Milek7> and cannot be used to raise rating above excellent
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22:12:38 <Milek7> there is sometimes no free space for trees
22:12:49 <frosch> then remove the trees first
22:13:43 <frosch> he, you wanted a cheat :p
22:14:03 <frosch> ok, it's no cheat, just an exploit
22:14:08 <andythenorth> town won’t let me build my station
22:14:24 <andythenorth> I have annoyed them :(
22:14:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i wanted that exploit fixed like 10 years ago...
22:14:50 <frosch> andythenorth: show them their mistake, and grow another town
22:15:03 <andythenorth> I am planting trees
22:15:19 <Milek7> but, in another town there is the same thinking local authority ;)
22:15:23 <andythenorth> first time it’s happened in this game
22:15:32 <andythenorth> usually I just have high ratings
22:15:43 <andythenorth> low ratings are mostly only a problem if you’ve screwed up
22:20:25 <andythenorth> I guess I screwed up :(
22:20:47 <frosch> fund some trees, until it i s enough to build two drive-through road stops
22:20:51 <frosch> then run a bus service
22:22:32 <andythenorth> silly old andythenorth
22:22:39 <andythenorth> I didn’t do that
22:22:46 <andythenorth> instead I bulldozed lots of land around the town
22:22:51 <andythenorth> but didn’t serve the town
22:25:16 <frosch> oh my, it's even easier than i remembered
22:25:28 <frosch> just build 20 road stops in a row, and send two buses in a circle
22:25:49 <frosch> you should get to outstanding in less than a year
22:26:37 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i generally build a bus or tram network in a town before doing anything else
22:27:08 <andythenorth> Busy Bee should prospect some industries
22:27:34 <Eddi|zuHause> and that's why my suggestion to fix the tree explioit is simply: forbid destroying trees if the rating is <fairly high>
22:27:50 <andythenorth> how would I build routes :o
22:27:55 <Eddi|zuHause> then you can still get out of the situation by placing bus stops
22:28:14 <Eddi|zuHause> like, find an empty tile or just build on the roads
22:28:33 <andythenorth> can’t build train lines?
22:28:40 <andythenorth> I’d definitely want a setting for that :P
22:29:05 <Alberth> simpler solution would be to reduce impact of adding trees
22:29:08 <frosch> you just need many stations
22:29:12 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it would allow for a new balancing pass where the impact of destroying trees could be lowered
22:29:18 <frosch> you can also build 1x1 train stations :p
22:29:23 <frosch> just the roads get into the way
22:29:37 <frosch> so, yeah, drive-through roadstops are definitely a cheat
22:29:45 <frosch> only added to easily increase town rating
22:29:46 <Alberth> andythenorth: would it still be busy bee?
22:29:51 <andythenorth> Alberth: dunno :)
22:30:04 <andythenorth> it wouldn’t be very often
22:30:25 <Eddi|zuHause> also, i would add a town rating effect to raising/lowering terrain
22:30:30 <andythenorth> I’m 30 years in, and increasingly the goals are harder to meet
22:30:30 <Alberth> why would it do that?
22:30:52 <andythenorth> I’ve already used a lot of the primaries
22:30:59 <andythenorth> I could re-route :)
22:31:05 <andythenorth> that seems weird though
22:31:16 <Alberth> you could build your own new industries :p
22:31:25 <andythenorth> ‘problem’ solved
22:31:32 <andythenorth> most ideas die young :P
22:32:15 <Alberth> script building industries could be fun, but it needs a bigger twist then, imho
22:32:23 <andythenorth> ‘invalid’ is my favourite kind of development
22:32:30 <andythenorth> ‘no’ is the best feature :P
22:32:48 <Alberth> tell that to your customers :p
22:35:18 <Alberth> I wonder if you could steer BB more towards a less random map
22:35:48 <Alberth> now it just spreads evenly everywhere
22:36:04 <andythenorth> I think that would be ‘Expand the Frontier Bee’ or something
22:36:10 <andythenorth> “North to South Bee”
22:36:34 <andythenorth> I am almost entirely only building routes to goals
22:36:35 <Alberth> a bit like your farm clusters, but at a bigger scale
22:36:38 <andythenorth> except for a few supplies
22:36:53 <andythenorth> and eventually….the network starts to look connected
22:36:59 <Alberth> eg coal in the north, steel in the center
22:37:10 <andythenorth> yeah, I would like that as an alternative
22:37:17 <andythenorth> ‘Scenario Bee’ :P
22:37:31 <andythenorth> Railroad Tycoon had seed points in the map
22:37:36 <andythenorth> so it was random, but highly weighted
22:37:51 <andythenorth> could be done in newgrf, but that’s too prescriptive
22:38:34 <Alberth> maybe get everything routed to one destination :p
22:39:47 <Alberth> didn't play that for a long time, should try it again
22:41:10 <andythenorth> needs multiple Valleys
22:44:43 <andythenorth> SV probably awesome with FIRS Arctic Basic, if the cargo is Vehicle Parts
22:45:27 <frosch> assuming all cargo labels use 4 uppercase letters (plus _), we could add four settings to sv to force a cargo :p
22:45:51 <_dp_> I would definitely disable authority in claimed town in cb
22:45:59 <frosch> but well, may become boring if it is not random
22:46:00 <andythenorth> frosch: that would be…nice
22:46:09 <_dp_> because it confuses new players and annoys old ones)
22:46:10 <andythenorth> dunno, I usually start a game knowing what I want
22:46:23 <frosch> _dp_: what's the point? it f'ing easy to increase the rating. you could as well disable money
22:47:08 <_dp_> frosch, many players don't know how to do it, they think they screwed up and leave game
22:47:21 <_dp_> and for pros time is very valuable
22:47:37 <_dp_> spending it to fight stupid authority is not fun
22:47:46 <andythenorth> been playing since 2008, and TTD when a kid
22:48:10 <andythenorth> grrr, Squid Ate FISH is bloody awful
22:48:12 <frosch> a "pro" knows the game deals with the rules
22:49:03 <_dp_> yeah, but that's not fun
22:49:06 <frosch> well, back to 1st level support
22:49:22 <_dp_> cb has fine mechanics on its own and doesn't need that authority
22:49:23 <frosch> can we hire them from blizzard?
22:49:33 <andythenorth> you know how [some] newgrf authors obsess about train loading time?
22:49:37 <andythenorth> and make it realistic
22:49:37 <frosch> reaper openings are so boring and annoying to deal with
22:49:43 <frosch> i would rather spend the time on building drones
22:50:15 <andythenorth> loading times might actually matter for ships
22:50:29 <frosch> andythenorth: the reverse?
22:50:47 <frosch> infinite many ships can load in parallel, so loading time does not matter at all?
22:50:57 <andythenorth> ship model progression is hard
22:51:06 <andythenorth> I’ve tried size, it’s crap
22:51:19 <andythenorth> no HP, no TE, running cost is blah
22:51:23 <andythenorth> and loading speed isn’t shown
22:51:30 <andythenorth> likelihood of sinking
22:51:32 <frosch> size is for visuals, so you do not have to use multipel ships over each other :p
22:51:49 <andythenorth> size / capacity /s :P
22:52:09 <frosch> capacity and speed is kind of the same
22:52:22 <frosch> but yes, ships are pretty one-dimensional
22:52:31 <frosch> there is only cargo per time
22:52:41 <frosch> because ships move independent from each other
22:53:09 <andythenorth> so speed is the only useful dimension?
22:53:23 <andythenorth> and, in a realistic-ish set, steam vs. non-steam
22:53:23 <frosch> assuming you do not care about payment for delivery speed (which is bad for ships anyway), it's just about amount per time
22:53:37 <frosch> which you can get by increasing capacity, speed, or number of ships
22:53:37 <andythenorth> I just want ships matched to train sizes :P
22:53:46 <frosch> "number of ships" is ugly, if they stack
22:53:58 <frosch> capacity and speed does not seem to make a difference, does it?
22:54:22 <andythenorth> depends how frequently you want to produce at a secondary industry
22:54:40 <andythenorth> and how much it annoys you to have n of the smallest ship, where n is increasingly a large number
22:54:48 <andythenorth> logically, all ships should be 8t and go 30mph
22:54:57 <andythenorth> that is the most logical choice
22:55:13 <frosch> yes, that means your goal is to run 5 (?) ships on every route
22:55:14 <andythenorth> and you build 100 instead of one 800t ship
22:55:33 <frosch> you can achieve that by picking the ship model with matching amount/time
22:55:34 <andythenorth> hmm you have called it close :P
22:55:39 <andythenorth> I usually run 3-4 ships on a route
22:55:54 <andythenorth> 1 loading, 1 travelling to destination, 1 unloading, 1 returning
22:56:30 <frosch> 500 tons/month production, pick a ship that has 100 tons/month transport on the required distance
22:56:59 <frosch> it can be a slow ship with high capacity, or a fast ship with lower capacity. no difference between them
22:57:17 <andythenorth> depends if you’re doing transfers
22:57:19 <frosch> if you want to go "realistic" you pick a rather fixed speed for all ships, and only vary capacity
22:57:39 <frosch> so, i see nothign wrong with your iniital strategy
22:57:41 <andythenorth> if your incoming train fills 75% of a ship vs 100%, you double the route time for the cargo
22:57:49 <frosch> capacity is the only property for ships
22:58:15 <_dp_> btw, what makes authority really annoying in cb is that it kinda snowballs... you need to build trees to get it up but then you need to build roads over those trees making it even worse
22:58:25 <frosch> andythenorth: double? if you have 5 ships you can at most increase it by 20%
22:58:27 <andythenorth> frosch: conclusion seems right, but boring :)
22:58:29 <frosch> or you have a ship too much
22:58:42 <andythenorth> I want to keep capacity same for each model at a given size
22:58:46 <andythenorth> so what to progress?
22:58:49 <_dp_> so once you rating drops below building threshold it's really hard to get it back
22:58:53 <frosch> _dp_: so just build busstops inbetween
22:59:14 <frosch> as said, outstanding in less than a year, with a few busstops and busses
22:59:32 <andythenorth> Road Hog offers minimal capacity increase, or none, some speed increase, and substantial HP increase
22:59:52 <_dp_> there is certain layout for bus stops, if you make more it screws up everything
23:00:09 <frosch> andythenorth: with one property there is no progress
23:00:34 <frosch> andythenorth: you pick the ship to match the amount/time requirement for the route. once you got that, there is no progress
23:01:09 <frosch> andythenorth: the only thing you could do is to restrict large/fast ships to later years, so in early years you can only serve short distances or you have to build a lot of ships
23:02:15 <_dp_> and few months is a lot of time, sometimes it's not even worth continuing game if deliveries were missed for few months
23:02:16 <andythenorth> I somewhat did that
23:03:00 <andythenorth> I am minded to just accept that ships are boring
23:03:17 <andythenorth> but maybe set loading speed faster on modern ships
23:03:19 <andythenorth> total realisms :P
23:03:21 <frosch> that is likely a valid conclusion :p
23:03:29 <andythenorth> players won’t know about loading speed, but eh
23:03:44 <andythenorth> they don’t know about payment bonus on refrigerated ship either :P
23:03:49 <frosch> something with only "one property" is likely boring, you cannot weight different aspects
23:04:25 <andythenorth> the vehicle sets I’m doing are predicated on “there’s one obvious best choice"
23:04:30 <frosch> andythenorth: but ok, "loading" speed actually benefits the "do not stack ships"
23:04:46 <andythenorth> yeah, I’ll have to just put it in the docs :P
23:04:57 <andythenorth> I think ships should have a safety factor :P
23:05:02 <andythenorth> perhaps that’s breakdowns
23:05:05 <andythenorth> which I don’t use
23:05:15 <frosch> they have a 20% rating bonus at stations
23:05:18 <frosch> which you don't use :p
23:05:30 <andythenorth> I don’t use that silly FIRS station rating cheat any more
23:05:38 <andythenorth> it’s still there, but I never turn it on
23:05:59 <andythenorth> I wanted it because I was playing NARS 2 ‘realistically
23:06:10 <andythenorth> 20 or 30 tile freight trains, single-line railroads
23:06:27 <andythenorth> cross half the map, 5000 or 10000t trains
23:06:32 <frosch> you can run NARS with 20 tile tranis?
23:06:56 <frosch> i recall pikka trains to be quite underpowered. is NARS an exception, or did you attach 10 engines?
23:07:03 <andythenorth> attach many engines of course :)
23:07:06 <andythenorth> and freight weight 1
23:07:11 <andythenorth> not the silly high settings
23:07:28 <andythenorth> if RVs would learn to find depots, I’d turn breakdowns back on
23:07:36 <andythenorth> but I got bored of setting explicit orders
23:07:47 <andythenorth> and watching RVs drive round in circles unable to find depots
23:07:52 <frosch> well, i always play in hilly or mountanious, and pikka's train never fit my needs
23:08:24 <frosch> if you have build "too many" serpentines, you do not have enough space for enough tracks
23:08:48 <andythenorth> I mean the + grfs
23:09:20 <frosch> i think i played ogfx+trains a lot before nuts was around
23:10:09 <frosch> it was the only trainset with refitting that was not realism themed :p
23:10:27 <andythenorth> tractive effort!
23:10:42 <frosch> i played one toyland game with autorefit
23:10:58 <frosch> because there was candyfloss, toffee and sugar right next to each other
23:11:12 <frosch> it's the only time i could make use of autorefit
23:11:16 <frosch> because nuts did not allow it
23:11:31 <frosch> maybe i should switch back to ogfx+trains :p
23:11:54 <frosch> oh, and i had a ship route for sweets
23:12:08 <andythenorth> ogfx+trains was on coop servers when I played
23:12:14 <andythenorth> I enjoyed the simplicity
23:12:21 <frosch> because it surpassed the cargo amount that makes sense to transport on a mixed cargo train track
23:12:24 <andythenorth> mostly there is one obvious engine choice, and easy wagon choices
23:12:47 <andythenorth> Iron Horse roster probably looks quite similar to ogfx+trains, in capacities, power etc
23:13:09 <frosch> is iron horse company coloured?
23:15:07 <frosch> maybe i should just hack my ottd locally to apply random cc to all wagons
23:15:18 <frosch> well, determintic random, not blinking :p
23:15:23 <andythenorth> make a setting :P
23:15:37 <andythenorth> Iron Horse randomises 1CC / 2CC wagons, but that’s all
23:15:40 <frosch> source patches are the more convincing setting :)
23:15:50 <andythenorth> there was idea to add more random colour to wagons, but eh
23:16:06 <frosch> i could also patch iron horse
23:16:12 <frosch> though i recall i wanted to patch firs :p
23:16:20 <andythenorth> it’s pixa recolouring of wagons, so it’s pretty trivial :P
23:16:23 <andythenorth> no drawing needed
23:16:43 <andythenorth> just add more colour maps
23:16:53 <frosch> andythenorth: nah, i would add a recolouring callback, that randomly picks one of the CC or an unrelated colour
23:17:10 <frosch> like: some of the trains are CC, but some are not
23:17:32 <andythenorth> would you tie it to the silly company colours UI? :P
23:17:42 <andythenorth> one day I should fix that silly UI
23:17:56 <frosch> no, that ui insults me
23:18:05 <frosch> it has 4 liveries for pax trains, but 1 for cargo
23:18:11 <frosch> and i never transport pax
23:18:15 <andythenorth> you don’t like selecitng a checkbox before using a UI control? :P
23:18:17 <frosch> except with busses to boost towns
23:18:36 <andythenorth> extend it to all the installed cargos?
23:18:58 <andythenorth> all with useful checkboxes
23:19:11 <frosch> andythenorth: i believe in the rule "a game should not look like excel"
23:19:23 <andythenorth> I think we need more excel, not less
23:20:00 <frosch> ribbons turned out to be quite hotkey friendly
23:20:05 <frosch> that actually impressed me
23:20:40 <frosch> on the surface it looks like for dummies, but you can actually use them efficiently
23:21:13 <frosch> maybe vim should add ribbons
23:22:13 <frosch> it's like, dummies use touchscreens, pros use keyboard, noone needs a mouse :p
23:22:52 <andythenorth> we need a ribbon in OpenTTD
23:23:27 <frosch> ottd does not have enough useful functions
23:23:37 <frosch> how many of the buttons in the menu do you actually use?
23:23:52 <frosch> i get away with 10 hotkeys or so
23:24:03 <Eddi|zuHause> what should i imagine under the term "ribbon"?
23:24:18 <frosch> though i have to select "tram" once per game
23:24:25 <frosch> there is no hotkey to switch roadtype
23:24:26 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: tabbed toolbar
23:24:31 <andythenorth> I had to look it up tbh
23:24:39 <andythenorth> frosch: no there is not :(
23:24:44 <frosch> Eddi|zuHause: the stuff that replaced the menu starting with office 2003
23:24:52 <andythenorth> I have shift-A for road, but can’t switch tram / not tram
23:25:17 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch: that explanation did not help
23:25:31 <andythenorth> huh, nuts has railtypes included :O
23:25:40 <andythenorth> I thought that was forbidden
23:25:50 <frosch> Eddi|zuHause: it's the answer to "you cannot use pulldown menus with a touchscreen"
23:26:04 <_dp_> pff, I'm out of keys on keybord for hotkeys %)
23:26:15 <andythenorth> more modifiers :P
23:26:24 <Eddi|zuHause> so, "giant overloaded toolbar"
23:26:27 <frosch> Eddi|zuHause: but the impressive thing is that they also work for hotkeys, better than a pulldown menu
23:26:56 <andythenorth> does the ribbon actually switch context to chosen tool?
23:27:46 <andythenorth> when you use a hotkey
23:27:58 <andythenorth> does it switch to the appropriate tab
23:28:19 <frosch> there are hotkeys for specific functions
23:28:26 <frosch> and there are hotkeys to navigate the ribbon
23:28:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i grew up with wordperfect... it had a nice cheatsheet about all the Fx hotkeys
23:29:09 <frosch> the former are essentially the same as in classic menus
23:29:22 <andythenorth> frosch: what did you need to patch in FIRS? :P
23:29:23 <frosch> the latter are better, because the last tab remains active
23:29:55 <frosch> andythenorth: parameters for booster cargos, amount required and effect
23:30:44 <andythenorth> probably not hard, the use of them is all templated
23:31:24 <frosch> yeah, the only problem is that i got the eddi-illness
23:31:31 <frosch> and only ever talk about stuff
23:31:49 <frosch> is it call "eddithis"?
23:33:55 <andythenorth> if you leave it, I’ll eventually do it
23:34:34 <andythenorth> can I have a settng to configure breakdowns per vehicle type?
23:34:53 <andythenorth> so I can have useless ships?
23:35:36 <andythenorth> ship breakdowns are silly anyway, averaged over enough time they’re equivalent to speed
23:35:45 <andythenorth> they don’t block networks
23:36:06 <frosch> hehe, only one property :p
23:36:14 <andythenorth> unreliable ship ~= slow ship
23:36:42 <andythenorth> can do that in newgrf :P
23:37:16 <andythenorth> I only have 2 or 3 generations of ships anyway, dunno why I’m worrying about progression
23:37:21 <frosch> also noone likes aircraft
23:37:29 <andythenorth> but same as ships
23:37:43 <andythenorth> use AV9: buy Pikka’s equivalent of dakota (DC3)
23:37:50 <andythenorth> use that everywhere
23:38:21 <andythenorth> aircraft only have two properties: speed, and szie
23:38:57 <frosch> speed in air does not matter
23:38:59 <andythenorth> I forgot capacity
23:39:08 <frosch> "size" havitly affects airport throughput
23:39:17 <frosch> well, yes, with "size" i mean "capacity":)
23:39:27 <andythenorth> I was ambigious :P
23:39:33 <_dp_> they only have one bool "is or is not A21" :p
23:39:40 <andythenorth> crashing also heavily affects airport throughput
23:39:44 <_dp_> dunno why other aircrafts exist in game xD
23:39:50 <frosch> as noob i always build the condorde, because it was soo fast, and i thought it woudl transport more
23:40:04 <andythenorth> AV9: Avix Alfa everywhere
23:40:19 <frosch> then i discovered that the biggest plane is just better
23:40:28 <frosch> and that for some reason late game planes become smaller again
23:40:35 <frosch> which was an anti-progression
23:41:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i noticed that even as a noob
23:41:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i never had a plane to replace my 747 with
23:41:28 <andythenorth> the planes were literally like they’re copied from a boeing catalogue
23:41:40 <andythenorth> zero gameplay weighting
23:41:46 <andythenorth> the trains are quite well chosen
23:42:13 <frosch> andythenorth: looks like av9 removed my favorite engine
23:42:19 * andythenorth recommends AV9 strongly
23:42:39 <andythenorth> pikka got bored of my zellepin jokes, and punished me for them
23:42:40 <Eddi|zuHause> oil-transporting zeppelin
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23:43:05 <Eddi|zuHause> the most realistic feature ever!!
23:43:24 <frosch> andythenorth: stratocruiser is my favorite
23:43:41 <Hiddenfunstuff> Why not mercury zeppelin?
23:44:19 <andythenorth> so many planes in AV8
23:44:46 <frosch> but most of them look different
23:44:54 <frosch> which is what matters, doesn't it?
23:45:13 <frosch> well, maybe only the early ones
23:45:17 <andythenorth> ok the stratocruise is nice
23:45:59 <andythenorth> looks matter, but not enough to have 100 planes :P
23:46:59 <frosch> oh my, more mhl bugs...
23:47:18 <frosch> the height adjustment does not trigger the aircraft inclination
23:47:37 <andythenorth> they just float up, no?
23:47:44 <frosch> when an aircraft takes off, it is first inclined, then turn horizontal, but keeps ascending
23:48:00 <frosch> i should fork ottd 1.4 :p
23:48:05 <andythenorth> climbing without nose pitch
23:48:32 <andythenorth> that was a classic release
23:48:34 <Eddi|zuHause> interesting that that never came up in 5 years of development
23:48:55 <Eddi|zuHause> and it's not like the height hysteresis never was under discussion
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