IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-01-02
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00:08:41 <Fuco> you decide to take a break, forget things
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11:30:44 <tycoondemon> so how can I make my own newgrf?
11:35:21 <V453000> tycoondemon: what do you need to know?
11:38:45 <V453000> yay flame war ignited :>
11:38:53 <V453000> only a matter of time now
11:39:27 <Eddi|zuHause> every discussion is a potential flamewar
11:40:12 <V453000> yes but with SAC it is a little bit more explosive :P
11:41:00 <Eddi|zuHause> some people are more vulnerable (or effective, depending on view) than others :p
11:43:36 <DorpsGek> V453000: planetmaker was last seen in #openttd 2 days, 19 hours, 8 minutes, and 43 seconds ago: <planetmaker> and the train engines will eventually become unavailable, thus it will become a necessity to upgrade to maglev eventually
11:49:37 <tycoondemon> I want to have some cost settings standard as a newgrf
11:50:29 <tycoondemon> way more expensive terraforming for the most part, but i cant find a easy way to configure it via existing newgrf
11:52:12 <tycoondemon> what is wrond with discussion? discussion is progress of knowledge
11:52:16 <V453000> I actually believe basecosts is on the devzone so you could just create some more presets for it
11:52:24 <V453000> tycoondemon: not here, forums :)
11:55:24 <tycoondemon> yes well, I use basecosts, but it is so convoluted to edit
11:55:42 <V453000> what do you mean? too many parameters?
11:57:25 <V453000> could make one like that
11:57:53 <V453000> but I can tell you that the best basecosts you can make is make all costs lowest possible, makes the game most fun
11:58:11 <V453000> makes people build what they want and not care about cost
11:59:43 <tycoondemon> well the problem I find with some low cost is that you just go for the absolute hack way of building as as far and as fast as possible, ea a straight as possible rail; just remove all land etc
12:00:12 <V453000> then that is just cause you want to build like that
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12:05:31 <tycoondemon> I keep chaising the perfect network dream
12:11:57 <Eddi|zuHause> other people will never build your dream network :p
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12:35:34 <Alberth> so you want to build your network dream, but not make it actually possible due to costs :p
12:39:29 <Alberth> you can tune every cost from insanely cheap to insanely expensive by using a few dropdowns
12:58:11 <tycoondemon> I know, but I cant find where it is stored
12:58:40 <tycoondemon> the problem is, it is very hard to find a balance at expensive and toooo expensive
12:58:48 <tycoondemon> and you have to tinqer a lot
12:59:07 <tycoondemon> and with so many parameters it takes a long time
12:59:13 <V453000> but what is your solution then?
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12:59:18 <V453000> tinker less by doing what? :d
12:59:45 <tycoondemon> yes, I know I have to tinqer at some poiint, but I have to restart every time when I reinstall pc or something
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13:02:32 <V453000> well you can make a preset newgrf
13:02:56 <V453000> or even upload a scenario with some newgrf settings, and every time you reinstall you can just download the scenario and copy grf settings
13:02:59 <Alberth> still needs tinquering to tune the values
13:05:14 <tycoondemon> I know it needs tinquering, but I dont fully understand how openttd stores it
13:09:14 <tycoondemon> i have to install both new grf?
13:09:52 <tycoondemon> so how do I edit this preset?
13:10:22 <Alberth> did you ever use a newgrf?
13:10:47 <Alberth> basecost mod is just like all other newgrfs
13:11:19 <tycoondemon> I installed them both now
13:11:36 <tycoondemon> I found the preset in the parameter of basecost-presets
13:12:02 <tycoondemon> but can I edit those presets?
13:12:23 <Alberth> don't know, I never use a basecost mod
13:12:44 <Alberth> but if you can, it's done through the "edit parameters" button
13:16:17 <tycoondemon> under set parameter of basecost-presets, I get a dropdown wtih 4 presets, I want to edit what thos presets does, or add my own, or would this mean I have to edit in NML?
13:17:26 <Alberth> no idea, just try another basecost mod?
13:17:56 <Alberth> they pretty much all have the same functionality, main differences are in how to express the settings
13:21:26 <V453000> tycoondemon: you can just put Basecosts Mod in your game, adjust the parameters of it to adjust the settings as you like, and then save your newGRF settings as preset
13:21:55 <V453000> if you want a newgrf which automatically works the way you want it to, without any collaboration with your local settings, then you need to create a new one with NML etc
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13:52:39 <andythenorth> dear metadata indexing daemon, I would like my CPU back thanks
13:54:19 <Alberth> you probably have the cpu, but the data you use is at the disk, which is a tad busy by the indexer deamon eating disk bandwidth :p
13:54:35 <Alberth> hi hi, and happy new year btw :)
13:54:56 <andythenorth> nah, it’s blocked one core at 100% and killing my battery :)
13:55:17 <andythenorth> it does latent-semantic-analysis on document contents also I think
13:56:00 <Alberth> looking for any secrets to sell to the americans :p
13:56:47 * andythenorth looking for trains, to buy from americans
13:56:53 <andythenorth> ebay is expensive eh
13:57:12 <Alberth> too many people have discovered it
13:57:41 <andythenorth> a lot of ‘buy it now’ with fair prices don’t sell
13:57:52 <andythenorth> but equivalent items in auctions sell at inflated price
13:58:25 <Alberth> someone else bids on it, it must be good :p
13:59:00 <Alberth> clicker game for adults :p
14:01:12 <andythenorth> “but I MUST win”
14:02:08 <andythenorth> I’m going to make a shunting puzzle
14:02:25 <andythenorth> each wagon has a card or token in a bag
14:02:27 <V453000> fucking train shit XD
14:02:29 <andythenorth> draw out 5, make the train
14:02:41 * andythenorth kids got trains for christmas
14:02:54 <V453000> mr santa definitely knows what up
14:03:18 * andythenorth needs a break from screen stuff
14:03:42 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: ok :)
14:03:49 <andythenorth> is it a fork bomb? o_O
14:03:51 <andythenorth> are you the NSA?
14:03:54 <TrueBrain> at least, I am hoping you have 64bit and 10.8+ :P
14:05:15 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
14:06:14 <Alberth> NSA already programmed your indexing deamon :p
14:07:29 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: I got an empty zip?
14:08:32 <TrueBrain> binary etc is there
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14:16:35 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: it’s r27486?
14:16:48 * andythenorth checking he’s testing correct thing
14:17:23 <TrueBrain> what OSX version are you running?
14:18:10 <andythenorth> it’s only a libpng problem, eh? libpng16.16.dylib
14:18:33 <TrueBrain> okay ..... lovely weird :P
14:18:39 <TrueBrain> the binary should be staticly linked
14:20:23 <TrueBrain> okay ... I will fiddle a bit more; I might get back to you later today :)
14:24:16 <V453000> that is kind of awesome :D
14:24:22 <Alberth> nice depot-like properties :D
14:39:08 <Alberth> you already have it; drive the train into a depot, shuffle the wagons in any way you like, done!
14:39:25 <Alberth> what more does a tycoon need? :p
14:42:18 <Alberth> I think shunting puzzles can be fun, but it's not for openttd, imho
14:43:09 <Alberth> just specifying the sequence of actions to perform is already a nightmare, imho
14:43:10 * andythenorth was fishing somewhat :P
14:43:32 <andythenorth> anyway, we have cdist
14:43:55 <andythenorth> functionally, shunting puzzles are just ‘something to do with your trains’
14:44:01 * andythenorth wonders if GS can inspect consists
14:45:01 <Alberth> you can also inspect orders, and cdist plans iirc
14:45:13 <Alberth> not sure why GS would want to do that though
14:47:08 <andythenorth> you get instructions that you have to make trains with specific sequences of cargo
14:47:13 <andythenorth> probably boring :)
14:53:13 <Pikka> Happy new year and sausages
14:55:34 <V453000> hi Pikka, have a wiener
14:55:56 <V453000> may your pixels grow and prosper in 2016
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15:22:32 <Pikka> but not right now... goodnight. :)
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16:02:19 <planetmaker> moin moin and happy new year
16:02:33 <Alberth> happy new year as well
16:34:27 <V453000> planetmaker: can I annoy you for a while? Could you please make me a repository at the devzone? I created the project under newgrfs and checked there to make it use repository but there is none in hg :)
16:35:49 <V453000> also may planets be made with ease in 2016 :)
16:36:48 <Alberth> in particular, books about them :p
16:39:48 <V453000> I dare say creating planets takes more effort than books :P
16:53:05 <planetmaker> V453000, I don't have my password with me currently. I can check that tomorrow evening
16:53:32 <V453000> sure no rush :) thanks
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16:58:53 <TrueBrain> right .. where is my guinea pig ... I have a new OSX binary :P
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17:10:45 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: my guinea pig is back! \o/ :D
17:11:04 <TrueBrain> can you give that a spin? :D
17:12:14 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: starts fine
17:12:17 * andythenorth loading some games
17:12:23 <TrueBrain> that is very good news :)
17:12:31 <andythenorth> yeah loads a save fine
17:13:21 <TrueBrain> that is a i386 binary; I guess it will be a lot slower
17:13:44 <TrueBrain> testing2 would be our 10.8+ release, and testing3 would be 10.6-10.7 release
17:14:28 <andythenorth> testing3 works fine
17:14:34 <andythenorth> no discernible speed difference
17:14:50 <TrueBrain> thanks a lot andythenorth
17:14:56 <TrueBrain> means I can push this new CF forwards :D
17:15:21 <TrueBrain> basically, it means we will only release i386 binaries for 10.6/10.7 .. in the idea that you really should upgrade to 10.8+ if you have x86_64
17:15:37 <TrueBrain> greatly reducing the binary size of the OSX releases :D
17:15:56 <TrueBrain> I just hope it doesn't confuse people too much ..
17:16:05 <andythenorth> maybe also 2016 is the year to redo openttd.org and bananas UI? o_O
17:16:05 <TrueBrain> not sure how well known OSX users are with their version they are running :P
17:16:22 <andythenorth> it’s one click for them to find out OS version
17:16:26 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, I don't think we should differ there with i386 or x64 - especially if it doesn't matter for the user?
17:16:28 <TrueBrain> my first project is getting thie CF via Docker done :)
17:16:49 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: I fully agree; it is the 10.6-10.7 I am refering to
17:16:56 <TrueBrain> as using that binary on a 10.8+ really is silly :)
17:16:57 * andythenorth forgets, what did we build eints in, bottle or flask?
17:17:11 <planetmaker> just call it 10.6 and 10.7 in our web UI and ignore that it's a i386 binary?
17:17:26 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: that would be the idea; but that is exactly what I am talking about ;)
17:17:36 <planetmaker> oki. I then just mis-read
17:17:44 <TrueBrain> it would be bad if 10.8 people start to use the 10.6 build ;)
17:17:50 <andythenorth> the current website and bananas frontend is django?
17:18:01 <TrueBrain> and what ever we do, I want them split up
17:18:08 <TrueBrain> I no longer want them all in a single project :D
17:18:16 <andythenorth> they don’t do much, no reason to use a big python framework
17:18:26 <andythenorth> website could be pretty much static compile :P
17:18:35 <andythenorth> like andythenorth html docs
17:18:45 <TrueBrain> they are a bit too dynamic ;)
17:19:25 <TrueBrain> but yeah, I do not really care
17:19:47 * andythenorth needs to get FIRS done for April
17:19:50 <andythenorth> and then will see
17:20:12 <TrueBrain> to give you a bit of an idea what is on my agenda atm: get this Docker CF done, so we can move forward with Mac OS X binaries etc again (current system really is on its last leg)
17:20:26 <TrueBrain> then I am going to finish removing the oldest VM we have .. which means moving email and django to its own VM
17:20:34 <TrueBrain> then I have a lot of cleaning up to do
17:20:37 <TrueBrain> (and I mean a lot :P)
17:20:44 <TrueBrain> after that, then I have time for anything else
17:20:47 <andythenorth> life of a sysadmin :P
17:20:53 <TrueBrain> so ... knowing my schedule ... 2016 is booked :P
17:20:55 <andythenorth> tar, rm all the days long
17:21:03 <TrueBrain> so any other changes you want, you guys will have to come up with ;)
17:21:22 <TrueBrain> regarding frontpage: it only has to handle LDAP user management + server listing + some static pages
17:21:36 <TrueBrain> and BaNaNaS only has to be a wrapper around musa
17:22:08 <TrueBrain> from a SysOp, those are my only requirements, basically ;)
17:26:31 <Eddi|zuHause> "oldest vm" is that the giant blob one?
17:27:03 <TrueBrain> 600GB, 4GB memory, linux-vserver, debian etch, Django 1.2, Python 2.5 ... yes, thatone :P
17:30:35 <TrueBrain> Docker and CFs work so well together :D:D:D
17:30:52 <TrueBrain> docker run --rm -v /home/mydir/openttd-source:/source openttd-cf:osx-10.8-x86_64
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17:58:03 <TrueBrain> today was a good day :P
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18:18:52 <Endymion> Hi. Looking at NewGRFs, if I'm looking for a trainset that's just a little more complex than NUTS, but not just a random bunch of engines, what would you all think is the best?
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18:19:57 <Alberth> probably everybody has a different answer to that :p
18:20:26 <Sylf> I've never seen anyone who uses NUTS to its full extent
18:20:28 <Alberth> how is NUTS not what you're looking for?
18:20:54 <Alberth> I don't understand the "more complex" idea
18:21:27 <Endymion> Well, some way that it's not always obvious that the upgrade is better, or more "situational" trains.
18:21:41 <Alberth> personally, I find NUTS quite fitting my needs, except for the "unlucky13" engine :p
18:22:09 <Sylf> there's no single upgrade path with NUTS
18:24:36 <Endymion> I've found that for most of my needs it's either the fast or medium that I need, to deal with Local Authority ratings decently. About the most "complex" trains I've run are the MEOW engines, and because that requires running more of the PURR lines than I'm accustomed to, I admit that I don't get full use of them.
18:27:03 <Endymion> I mean, my only "major" complaint is that I can't reverse the train graphic properly when I double-head a vehicle (which is 90% of the time), because they're 2-part units. But the way I play, as I said, it gets pretty linear - any time a new engine comes out I upgrade to it.
18:27:20 <Endymion> Or at least a new one in the same category.
18:27:36 <Alberth> :o how do you do unlucky13 then?
18:27:55 <Alberth> electric engine in the steam row?
18:30:26 <Endymion> I actually haven't run into that issue.
18:31:40 <Alberth> not using strong engines thus :)
18:32:41 <Alberth> but for recommendations, euhm, yeah
18:32:54 <Alberth> you could try pineapple trains, or iron horse
18:34:09 <Alberth> at least those are designed for game play
18:38:16 <Endymion> Awesome. Because I do like NUTS, it just gets to feeling a little too linear - as you said, I don't use the strong engines because I rarely have a run short enough or hilly enough to make 'em worthwhile.
18:42:13 <V453000> did you read the NUTS wiki for hints which engines are useful when?
18:46:23 <Endymion> @V453000: Would you believe me if I said, 'back when I started running NUTS as one of my regular NewGRFs'?
18:46:43 <V453000> ? what do you mean? :)
18:48:11 <Sylf> um, what local authority ratings?
18:48:37 <V453000> fast trains = better station ratings I guess he means
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18:49:50 <Sylf> turtles have high max speed to boost the station ratings:P
18:49:52 <V453000> Endymion: in general all of NUTS vehicles are mostly very balanced, but when used with the right type of network and train length and other conditions, some can be better than others in your situation
18:52:09 <Sylf> I just don't understand why one should care so much about station ratings
18:52:26 <Endymion> I'll be honest, I usually find I can ignore the Strong class on most of the maps I get - Superstrong is okay, but sticking with medium or double-headed Fast tends to have better effect.
18:52:31 <Sylf> the whole logic that it's partly dependent on the train speed is flawed
18:54:40 <Alberth> it may have been a simple hack to express some other desired property in the original game
18:54:59 <Alberth> too bad we don't know
18:56:01 <Endymion> @Sylf: I'm one of those goofballs who likes making cities grow and getting nice ratings from the cities/towns I service.
18:59:08 <Endymion> @Alberth: Chris Sawyer is still alive... Why not find his email and reach out to ask? After all, he just released a new Transport Tycoon (not Deluxe) for mobiles.
19:00:34 <Alberth> CS is well aware of us, and has never answered anything afaik
19:01:29 <Alberth> also, the original game is not his property anymore, I am not even sure he is allowed to talk about it
19:01:40 <Endymion> Probably because OTTD cuts into the profit from the new mobile game.
19:01:58 <Endymion> He's got to be allowed to talk about his logic...?
19:15:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't be surprised that details like that nobody involved will remember why they ended up this way.
19:16:16 <Eddi|zuHause> it was 20 years ago...
19:16:28 <Endymion> There was a rerelease not that long ago...
19:20:51 <V453000> Endymion: towns grow just fine with slow trains, like with fast :) no difference there
19:21:09 <Endymion> @Eddi: Given how it was written, and probably had to be rewritten for mobiles, wouldn't they have to know their logic again?
19:21:42 <Endymion> @V453000: Huh. Alright.
19:21:47 <V453000> strong class trains are awesome for short trains, the acceleration helps pack your lines a LOT. For longer trains they are just fine too, but there are probably better classes in that area. Generally fast class is the least efficient
19:21:59 <Eddi|zuHause> also, there's a difference to knowing the logic, and knowing why the logic is like that
19:22:03 <Alberth> the only thing that TT for mobiles has in common with the original TTD, is the name, and the topic of transport. Everything esle is different
19:22:42 <Alberth> TT for mobiles is much closer to locomotion
19:22:42 <Endymion> And CS' involvement.
19:23:54 <Alberth> in such games, a lot of people are working, really, the boss doesn't see every little detail
19:25:10 <Alberth> game industry is not nice; very complicated programming, very tight deadlines
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19:30:20 <Sylf> For maximum town growth speed, all you need is 5 bus stops and 1 bus
19:30:33 <Sylf> or something similar. 5 regularly serviced stations.
19:30:40 <V453000> hey, I like the industry :P
19:31:33 <Alberth> V: did you perhaps run into unlucky13 at a non-electrified track? :)
19:33:32 <V453000> ah I guess the graphics have a pantograph?
19:33:49 <Alberth> basically not run at non-electrified track?
19:34:03 <V453000> well then should it? :D
19:34:04 <Alberth> at least it's advertised as (electric)
19:34:26 <V453000> well if it is electric then it should also not run on non-electrified track?
19:34:32 <Alberth> well, it's a bit weird if the engine before and after are steam
19:34:36 <V453000> I dont get the issue ._.
19:35:14 <V453000> before and after in terms of chronology or within class?
19:36:37 <V453000> the engine after it is also electric
19:36:41 <V453000> but yeah after that 2 are diesel
19:36:42 <Sylf> so, you see a technology digression within the same class?
19:37:06 <Sylf> I try not to think about those details
19:37:08 <V453000> ok if you consider it important I will change the two engines to electric
19:37:21 <V453000> but I dont know when will I release another version of NUTS
19:38:01 <Alberth> well, the problem is that by the time I arrive at that engine, I have all tracks non-electrified, but no successor engine
19:38:22 <V453000> is electrifying that much of a problem? :D
19:38:23 <Alberth> so I get pushed away from STRONG
19:38:56 <V453000> well your reasons do not sound super reasonable :P
19:40:20 <V453000> I personally LOVE steam trains, so I sometimes just use only MEOW steamers
19:40:36 <Alberth> yeah, I usually move to MEOW
19:40:45 <V453000> but just having to electrify my tracks definitely does not mean anything to me
19:40:54 <V453000> sure with some WTF basecosts it could be uncomfortable
19:41:11 <Alberth> oh, I don't use those, and I make sufficient monies :)
19:41:56 <V453000> well then why is electric track so problematic? XD
19:42:20 <Alberth> it's just not expected not to be able to continue on non-electrified track
19:43:03 <Alberth> but yeah, maybe I should electrifry things :)
19:45:50 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27487 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2016-01-02 19:45:38 +0100 )
19:45:52 <DorpsGek> spanish: 1 change by SilverSurferZzZ
19:45:53 <DorpsGek> serbian: 57 changes by stravagante
19:45:54 <DorpsGek> catalan: 23 changes by juanjo
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21:44:16 * andythenorth bored of scouring ebay now
21:56:10 <Wolf01> i catched sleep 3 times in 5 minutes
22:05:08 <Wolf01> andythenorth, i've seen the last photos of the lego machinery a friend is building... at the current state is about big as a bed
22:05:20 <andythenorth> the fun goes imho
22:05:21 <__ln__> Wolf01: *catch, caught, caught
22:06:37 <Wolf01> __ln__: coffee, coffee, coffee
22:11:58 <andythenorth> the 2016 flagship is *allegedly* bw excavator
22:12:04 * andythenorth wonders if it will be that big :P
22:12:24 <Wolf01> i'm sure it won't, but i'm waiting for that one :D
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22:15:34 <Wolf01> oh, the caffeine seem to have reached the brain, i feel really better now
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