IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-12-29
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00:36:07 <Keridos> can i remove a newgrf from a running game forcefully?
00:37:32 <glx> then it should be in the static section and not linked to the game
00:43:50 <Keridos> and if it is in my newgrf list on my dedicated server?
00:44:21 <glx> you should not put it there ;)
00:50:34 <Keridos> glx, do i need to DL the save to my local graphical interface for that?
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03:04:56 <Keridos> glx, got it working, thanks a lot, having a blast with my friends now :)
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03:56:44 <Keridos> is there a way to replace vehicles in all trains without making them longer?
04:06:11 <Supercheese> Enable Wagon Removal
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04:46:24 <Keridos> Supercheese: thanks :D
04:51:07 <Supercheese> you're most welcome :)
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08:14:48 <Flygon_> <Flygon_> Had a brownout
08:14:48 <Flygon_> <Flygon_> Lost my work on OpenTTD
08:19:02 <Supercheese> ya need a battery backup power supply
08:19:13 <Supercheese> it's an excellent investment
08:45:37 <Flygon_> Supercheese: Yeah, every one of my PCs has one inbuilt
08:45:42 <Flygon_> Except the desktop I was playing on xP
08:45:45 *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
08:45:57 <Flygon> So I can also retain Internets >_>
08:47:23 <Flygon> I forgot how fun mountain railways are
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09:12:12 <peter1138> Many people just flatten them...
09:13:04 <peter1138> Town in the way between your two distance map points? Raze it!
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10:01:46 <Flygon> peter1138: That's silly
10:04:23 <Flygon> Half the point of the game is making stuff pretty
10:04:33 <Flygon> Even if it can be slightly less practical
10:05:00 <Flygon> Granted, part of the reson people DO do this, is because OTTD's tunnel/bridge functions are underdeveloped
10:07:05 <Supercheese> can't even get signals in tunnels & bridges, much less diagonals or simutrans-esque underground layer
10:08:47 <Supercheese> anyway, to quote: Good night train friends
10:12:25 <Flygon> peter1138: Just an observation. I don't mean any offence!
10:12:50 <Flygon> I actually forgot you were prolly a dev
10:13:48 <V453000> peter1138 is just a patch vending machine
10:14:05 <V453000> you mention something and he links you to a patch he wrote
10:14:13 <peter1138> Flygon, I didn't mean that :)
10:14:39 <Flygon> Still, you do get my point!
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11:38:14 <Flygon> Shit. I just hid a locomotive
11:38:19 <Flygon> How do I unhide a locom- nvm
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11:44:38 <Eddi|zuHause> there should be a "show all hidden" button
11:48:43 <peter1138> You can hide locos?
11:51:07 <Flygon> I just accidentally sent everything for servicing
11:51:15 <Flygon> We really need a "Cancel Servciing" buttonb
11:51:38 <V453000> you are really good at hitting random buttons
11:55:30 <Rubidium> Flygon: that's called "the undo knob"
11:58:29 <Wolf01> i hope you arent't serious
12:01:50 <Flygon> I don't mean ANYTHING like that
12:02:06 <Flygon> I just meant cancelling any existing Manual Servicing orders for a train group
12:02:40 <V453000> the servicing should mainly work like
12:02:58 <V453000> "trains start requiring servicing and visit depot whenever they meet one, like normally"
12:03:09 <V453000> not "send all trains to depots immediately and fuck up everything"
12:03:30 <Wolf01> eh, when you try to cancel the order, trains already moved in a wrong part of the infrastructure in search of a depot, so it will cause jams, there you really need the undo knob
12:03:53 <Flygon> Wolf01: Nah, this was done in pause mode
12:04:06 <Flygon> V453000: It's a "Breakdowns Turned Off" game
12:04:15 <Flygon> Because I'm a cheap bastard
12:04:22 <V453000> you can use servicing even with no breakdowns
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12:05:50 <Wolf01> eh, you learned to not clickfest the hard way
12:06:12 <Flygon> I've had shaky hands since I was a child
12:06:23 <Flygon> It makes using glass drawing tablet a pain because
12:06:26 <Flygon> The screens are so smooth
12:06:27 <V453000> causes some serious cloverleaf diagnosis
12:06:38 <Flygon> That they capture all my shakiness too
12:06:46 <Flygon> I already did the cloverleaf :U
12:07:03 <V453000> yes, hinting it might be a problem in the head, not hands :P
12:07:33 <Wolf01> (i usually miss the right icon in the windows app bar, like starting IE when i want to run notepad, three times in a row)
12:08:45 <V453000> I basically built an uber stronk argument that based on you building cloverleaves, the hands are not the problem. Because cloverleaf = pinnacle of stupidity
12:09:30 <Flygon> It's relatively high speed, and works well with realistic acceleration
12:09:36 <V453000> deadlockable, terrible in size, terrible in throughput, terrible in expandability
12:09:46 <Flygon> And will handle the freight chucked at it pretty well
12:09:52 <Flygon> I've never had it deadlock
12:10:05 <V453000> yeah pointless to explain
12:10:45 <Flygon> It's just difficult to see how it deadlocks without it actually deadlocking
12:11:04 <Flygon> And I've not run long enough freight inside the actual leafs to make that a huge possibility
12:11:04 <V453000> tracks join before other tracks leave, simple as that
12:11:05 <Rubidium> V453000: how is it deadlockable?
12:11:14 <Flygon> Did you look at the screenshot?...
12:11:30 <Flygon> The traffic doesn't enter into exiting traffic
12:11:30 <V453000> ok not exactly deadlock, just problematic
12:11:36 <Flygon> The cloverleaf is designed explicitly not to do that
12:11:38 <Rubidium> because the "trivial" deadlock where you have trains in a circle is not possible because in one direction there is no join-before-split
12:11:50 <V453000> hi pm, I discovered I am able to create a subproject of NewGRFs at devzone? XD
12:12:20 <V453000> I created BRIX project, hope it is fine with stuff
12:12:29 <peter1138> Meh, flat junctions with path singles, easy peasy.
12:13:17 <peter1138> do we have diagonal bridges/tunnels yet?
12:13:50 <V453000> this shit just hurts.
12:14:28 <V453000> I am fine with it if someone says they were just having random fun or people unaware that it is bad, but justifying it is just seriously mind boggling
12:14:41 <Flygon> I'm just a casual player
12:14:48 <Flygon> I'm going more for aesthetics
12:14:58 <Flygon> And a lot of the more 'efficient' junctions also tend to be really ugly
12:14:58 <V453000> this is aesthetical for you?
12:15:08 <Flygon> And since we can build flexible tunnels and bridges yet
12:15:16 <Flygon> This's the closest I can get to a stack interchange
12:15:37 <Flygon> Even then, a stack interchange would never work in 1885. No tractive effort. >_>
12:16:07 <Flygon> The Cloverleaf already had enough problems with the inclines involved. It only got put in because the flat interchange was getting too congested
12:17:41 <Flygon> If I took a wider screenshot of the network
12:17:47 <Flygon> You'd probably want to bark at me pretty hard
12:18:33 <Flygon> "Vehicle not Available"
12:18:43 <Flygon> I really gotta autoreplace some of these vehicles
12:23:42 <Flygon> For something I have had deadlock in the game through incredibly bad "I really didn't think this through"
12:25:16 <V453000> not much wrong with that at all
12:25:44 <Flygon> It's the only part of my map that's actually deadlocked
12:26:12 <V453000> pickup trains waiting?
12:27:09 <Flygon> That, and poor signal planning
12:27:41 <Flygon> Ended up having to do lots of small adjustments
12:31:22 <Flygon> Ended up having a pretty bad deadlock... and I only noticed because I wondered what broke the cloverleaf
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12:37:02 <Flygon> For IRL use, Cloverleafs are pretty useless, even if you build a non-weaving one like I did :D
12:37:46 <Flygon> Unless you really really want to use up a lot of spare land and have very very easy grades for the vehicles involved... but that's pointless in this day and age
12:50:58 <Wolf01> which road set are you using?
13:01:10 <peter1138> did lego worlds turn out to be any good? :P
13:01:34 <Wolf01> waiting for multiplayer
13:20:49 * Eddi|zuHause wonders what weird definition of "RL" Flygon has
13:21:04 <Flygon> Wolf01: American Roadset
13:21:41 <Wolf01> does it change with the years or it stay like that also in 2000+?
13:21:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: well, they built some cloverleaf-like junctions on the berlin outer ring railway
13:22:13 <Flygon> Too steep to build a stack junction?
13:22:43 <Eddi|zuHause> that was started in the 1930s and finished in the 1960s or 70s
13:23:42 <Flygon> Ahh, the grades involved definitely would've been a factor, then
13:24:53 <Flygon> I'm not too familiar with Berlin's geography
13:25:50 <Eddi|zuHause> there's also an "inner" ring, from the 1880s
13:27:23 <Flygon> We had 'some' inner and outer ring railways
13:27:26 <Flygon> But by ring, I mean...
13:27:33 <Flygon> They really weren't rings <_>
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13:28:48 <Wolf01> hey, i was writing that
13:28:57 <Flygon> Inner Circle is the only real circle we ever had. We now have the City Loop, though.
13:29:22 <Flygon> Alemein line combined with the 'Outer Circle' above it created the second 'loop'. But, again, it really wasn't a circle
13:29:42 <Flygon> It's worth noting that true circles can't really be made. That map ommitted the gigantic bit of water in the way.
13:32:28 <Flygon> We're not building an underwater station
13:33:00 <Wolf01> a bridge inside a tunnel
13:33:29 <Flygon> Wolf01: Sydney did that with one of their road tunnels, kinda
13:33:46 <Flygon> They submerged pre-fabbed segments, watertight
13:33:52 <Flygon> Then connected them together
13:34:05 <Wolf01> bah, i hate when RL beats fantasy... we should catch up
13:34:53 * Wolf01 is thinking about a catapult for ships
13:37:11 <Alberth> water resistance needs fixing then probably
13:37:58 <Wolf01> water, i want to launch ships through air to reach impossible places
13:40:52 <Wolf01> i remember when my strategy was to teleport cruisers on the "one tile water" pond in the middle of the enemy base in red alert using the chronosphere
14:17:53 <peter1138> high wing aircraft with retractable landing gear look weird...
14:23:30 <peter1138> but light aircraft really
14:26:03 <peter1138> Dihedral (upswept wings) can be used to increase stability on low-winged aircraft.
14:26:19 <peter1138> i did that just for the highlight, sorry :p
14:29:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i read a sentence similar to that a few days ago when i tried to figure out how to build airplanes
14:30:48 <Eddi|zuHause> but flying planes in KSP is odd... you need an autopilot with altitude and direction control, and a way to fast forward until you're at the location you want
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14:52:44 <Flygon> __ln__: The Cancer programme didn't improve public perception of Qantas
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15:10:26 <debdog> are there plans to implement a feature that allows to convert trains inside a depot if the depot is altered from one rail type to another?
15:11:30 <Wolf01> there are some universal rails grfs, but you till have to convert the trains by hand
15:11:31 <V453000> you can kind of do it already
15:11:43 <debdog> replacing trains (esp. their orders) is a PITA
15:11:53 <V453000> use universal rail like PURR :)
15:11:58 <V453000> and you can do it automatically
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15:13:24 <peter1138> £9.99 for basesets though
15:14:32 <debdog> I wouldn't mind doing manually as long as the orders are copied.
15:15:43 <Wolf01> orders are already copied also in the base game, you only need a bit of attention
15:16:06 <debdog> like, send all trains into depots, replace railways with another type and each depo that has trains in it opens a window where I can replace the engine and wagons manually but the orders would stay the same
15:17:02 <debdog> I can do that if there's only one train inside the depot, yes
15:18:48 <debdog> but what if there's more than one? I'd need a depot for each train plus, beforehand converting the rails, I'd need to sort of arrange this situation somehow
15:19:54 <V453000> if you use universal rail, you convert whole network to universal rail, autoreplace to whatever you want, and then convert to the final track type ... or keep universal if you like it XD
15:20:14 <debdog> also: https://wiki.openttd.org/Convert_rail#Tips "Note that you can only convert one train at a time using this method, but you may also convert the empty depot back to the old railtype so you can convert another train using the same depot. " convert it back?
15:20:42 <debdog> I'd need to have two tracks of different types as well
15:21:20 <debdog> ok, I'll have a look at the GRFs
15:23:30 <Alberth> don't simply upgrade existing track and continue the game
15:24:07 <Alberth> the entire upgrade is then mostly a no-op, better find a newgrf that doesn't force you to upgrade in that case
15:24:41 <Alberth> I always start building new tracks with the new railtype, possibly eventually replacing existing routes
15:24:51 <Alberth> it's much more fun playing that way
15:26:52 <debdog> TBH I'd love to stay on std. electrified rails. but right now the engines for those are being removed over time
15:27:59 <Alberth> indeed, default set forces you to upgrade :(
15:32:50 <V453000> I like replacing to various kinds of things in NUTS :)
15:36:50 <peter1138> iceweasel, 850MB resident, 20.2G virtual... well done
15:37:07 <peter1138> monodevelop, 2.4G res, 5.5GB virt
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16:42:09 <Rob0817> hi @ all. does anyone know how to include DB SET XL on a dedicated linux server
16:45:21 <Rob0817> in other words: how to include newgrf files that are not downloadable.
16:47:10 <Alberth> manually install them, as explained in the readme, and probably the wiki
16:48:18 <Alberth> note that most likely you won't get many users, many already fail to understand the download content, let alone manual install procedures
16:49:46 <Alberth> "manual install" mostly means "copy it into the right spot", in a "newgrf" directory iirc
16:51:37 <Rob0817> the file is in the right place i think. but how does the server recocnice the new grf file
16:53:57 <Alberth> simplest solution is to make a map or scenario at a desktop, and load that in the server
16:54:28 <Alberth> alternatively, setup newgrfs etc at the desktop, and copy the openttd.cfg file
16:54:41 <Alberth> remember to replace windows \ to / in newgrf paths
16:55:24 <Alberth> oh, and copy it after shutting down the server, as server exit will write the openttd.cfg
16:55:29 <Rob0817> thanks for your help. we will try this.
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17:40:58 <Wolf01> oh, nice... i can't rotate a rectangle :|
17:42:38 <Wolf01> i need to figure out how to rotate it 90° without doing weird things with vectors
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17:53:00 <andythenorth> Wolf01: are you drawing the rectangle, or is it a bitmap?
17:53:26 <andythenorth> is the shape in any kind of container?
17:53:37 <Wolf01> the bounding box, used for collisions
17:53:54 <andythenorth> I would separate concerns
17:54:13 <andythenorth> 1 set of shape definitions, in an xy space oriented conventionally
17:54:26 <andythenorth> i.e. x goes left-right, y goes top-bottom or so
17:54:38 <andythenorth> then I would define a rotation on some kind of container
17:54:54 <andythenorth> and patch the shape drawing routine, then use trig to move all the points
17:55:34 <andythenorth> possibly there’s a way to do it using matrix transformations, but I’d use trig, and just iterate each x,y pair in the shape :P
17:55:52 <andythenorth> you need ideas from someone like Eddi to do it ‘properly’ :)
17:56:39 <andythenorth> or rasterise the shape at compile time, and just rotate the bitmap :P
17:57:57 <Wolf01> i don't really need to draw it, it's just for debug purpose, the main problem is to have the right sizes when checking for collisions
17:59:13 <andythenorth> “trig solves all game problems”
18:00:20 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i would try to help you, but i'm unfortunately gone.
18:00:55 <Wolf01> i'm gone too, my brain exploded trying to figure out how to handle the internal coordinates system
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18:06:12 <debdog> ok guys, had a trial with Universal Rail Type and it worked quite well. thanks for the hint
18:11:50 <andythenorth> Wolf01: it’s just triangles :D
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19:45:49 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27483 /trunk/src/lang (esperanto.txt norwegian_bokmal.txt) (2015-12-29 19:45:36 +0100 )
19:45:51 <DorpsGek> norwegian (bokmal): 1 change by cuthbert
19:45:52 <DorpsGek> esperanto: 1 change by LaPingvino
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20:48:08 <Aphid> Does anyone have up-to-date information about the 'conversion rates' of ECS industries? E.g. the wiki notes that glass is 1t coal & 2t sand => 5t glass.
20:57:23 <Aphid> I'm not entirely sure about them either... am I supposed to use the 'construction' vector? hmm...
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21:10:38 <Aphid> I've also managed to do something weird; created an empty array that is at the same time not an empty array.
21:19:50 <Aphid> Squirrel question then. If I create an empty array, then append zero or more elements to it using its 'append' function. After this, how can ''if(myArray == [] || myArray.len == 0)' return false, yet trying to access a random element return 'the index 0 does not exist' (which only happens logically upon accessing a random element of an empty array)?
21:31:21 <Rubidium> is it an array or a dictionary?
21:33:24 <Aphid> local types = []; <-- that should be an array right?
21:44:17 <Aphid> I think I may have realized what's going on here. 'types == []' will check if 'types' points to the same memory location as a locally created array '[]' does, which it will never do, so this is 'always false'. Then, 'types.len' is actually the memory location of the function 'len', and not the length of 'types'.
21:44:25 <Aphid> So 'types.len() == 0' works
21:47:32 <Aphid> So in ECS, can you have at most 'x' tourists on the map, where x is the sum of the max. productions of each of the 7 'tourists centre' layouts?
21:54:27 <Aphid> Hmm... so if I just say 'transport x%' of generated tourists, no roadblocks happen.
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