IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-12-27
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00:03:28 <Keridos> is there a newgrf that adds more endgame trains?
00:03:53 <Keridos> and maybe universal rails and maglev cargo train engines?
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00:30:43 <Eddi|zuHause> did you try monolev replacement or vactrains?
00:31:35 <Eddi|zuHause> NUTS supposedly goes well with PURR
00:31:47 <Eddi|zuHause> but i have never used any of these sets
01:20:58 <Sylf> actually NUTS doesn't neet PURR - PURR is included
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03:08:58 <drac_boy> anyone else expecting some snow soon finally? heh :)
03:12:06 <Xal> gib snow to pacific northwest pls
03:15:09 <Xal> other than that cascade mountains look beautiful though
03:19:19 <drac_boy> so what're you doing atm tho?
03:49:40 <Payl> So, I've been wondering why openttd isn't multithreaded... let me elaborate: I.e. why YAPF can't run in threads to calculate vehicle directions (shouldn't perform any writes except for where train wants to go)? I think most latter games suffer from lots of pathfinding on huge network, isn't that the case? So wouldn't multithreading YAPF be the way?
03:53:09 <drac_boy> payl dunno about actual answer but even a single 200mhz slice still is enough to calculate several hundred vehicles per second which is rather a big number
03:54:07 <Payl> drac_boy: well i have 2013 i5 2.5Ghz and a 2048x2048 map with ~700trains, cpu usage ~30% so it's since core fully used
03:54:18 <Payl> and it sometimes lags when i unzoom
03:54:57 <drac_boy> well theres two other things...the big map size to draw graphics for :)
03:55:21 <Payl> 10% cpu usage with plain 2048x2048 map, checked that already
03:57:21 <Payl> so it's either because map changes in some way after 100+years of gameplay, or because of 700 trains, 100 ships and some 100 cars...
03:58:21 <drac_boy> not too sure what to tell you other than me having a tiny cpu sorry :)
03:58:52 <Payl> drac_boy: well do you run OpenTTD on 200mhz? I find it hard to believe it will run on sth like that
03:59:05 <drac_boy> btw unrelated but just had to ask, what year you started on re 100+ years?
03:59:22 <Payl> well i started at about... uh 1950?
04:00:37 <Payl> honestly i thought that OpenTTD had no CPU bounds but after running it on my VPS i now believe OpenTTD required fast cpu, especially if it isn't 256x256 <100 trains map
04:01:21 <Payl> so unless you ran OpenTTD at 200mhz CPU, don't claim it :P
04:03:28 <drac_boy> I've always been for 1920 .. and usually ends around uhh 1970-2050 depending but mm to our own preferences on that one
04:04:19 <Xal> I think the real answer to why openttd isn't threaded is because it takes time and no one wants to redesign how the game loop works
04:04:59 <Payl> Xal: well if YAPF just tells trains how to move, then it should be rather easy sub 100 lines code...
04:05:32 <Payl> but instead of making it there are claims that multithreading isn't possible...
04:05:47 <Xal> tbh I don't really know what I'm talking about but keeping everything thread safe is also difficult and time consuming
04:06:16 <Xal> SOME form of multithreading will come eventually
04:06:21 <Payl> Xal: thats why you only multithread things that take most of time...
04:06:59 <Xal> 90-10 rule of thumb: 90% of time is spent executing 10% of the code
04:07:08 <Payl> so for YAPF that would be... well nothing except dividing vehs to threads and then waiting for threads to finish...
04:07:25 <drac_boy> btw wish I could join more of this topic but going to bed atm sorry. you two have fun tho allright? (on a side note..other than robo's build being old now there also is the question of why ottd still can't even have working restrict signals either?)
04:07:49 <Payl> Xal: unless you profile OpenTTD, then every procedure has 3% of execution... weird symbols u give with ur game!
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06:24:29 <Flygon> Do Compartment or Regional Coaches reload faster?
06:24:42 <Flygon> I'm running interurbans and electric trains aren't fast enough yet
06:24:49 <Flygon> So I'm using Steam Locos with carriages
06:25:28 <Flygon> I suspect it's Compartment tho
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11:33:46 <alluke> flygon have you done mods for gta sa?
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12:40:33 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Commit by translators :: r27478 /trunk/src/lang (57 files in 2 dirs) (2015-12-27 12:40:23 +0100 )
12:40:34 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: -Update from Eints:
12:40:35 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: german: 8 changes by translators, 2 changes by frosch
12:40:36 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: arabic (egypt): 36 changes by translators
12:40:37 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: afrikaans: 4 changes by translators
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13:06:38 <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't sound right :p
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13:17:27 <TrueBrain> I guess I should say some beautiful words ...
13:18:04 <TrueBrain> that should count for something, I guess
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13:23:50 <Eddi|zuHause> sure, "enjoy your retirement"
13:24:15 <Eddi|zuHause> but still, the "by translators" bit seems... unnecessary/a step backwards
13:25:05 <frosch123> you want a commit per translator?
13:25:11 <frosch123> sounds like a lot of cake
13:25:24 <TrueBrain> translators in this case is the user ;)
13:25:34 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i meant in the commit message
13:25:52 <TrueBrain> WT3 would have given the same commit message
13:25:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it used to say the username of the individual translators
13:25:57 <TrueBrain> if it knew how to strip spaces :P
13:26:02 <Eddi|zuHause> now it says "by translators"
13:26:06 <TrueBrain> yeah; and the user doing these changes, is "translators"
13:26:18 <TrueBrain> check the diff, you will understand ;)
13:26:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't need to understand. it's just useless
13:26:44 <TrueBrain> welcome to the xmas spirit, pfft
13:27:01 <Eddi|zuHause> you should either remove that bit, or somehow pipe the usernames back from eints
13:27:12 <TrueBrain> that did the change
13:27:20 <TrueBrain> what is there not to understand about that?
13:27:24 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: stop talking bollocks, it's already like what you mean
13:27:25 <__ln__> i bet Eddi is not talking about *that* username
13:27:40 <Eddi|zuHause> well, whatever...
13:27:53 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: only non-changes are attributed to non-translators
13:27:56 <TrueBrain> not like the german line shows another username ;)
13:41:57 <TrueBrain> okay ... byebye WT3 :(
14:00:37 <TrueBrain> right, that comment was followed with burning of some fire, and now a lot of weird wires are all of a sudden gone \o/ BE GONE WT3! :D
14:02:36 <frosch123> ah, you are one of those who kiss their victims before murdering them
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14:09:03 <Wolf03> looks like one server was a bad server
14:09:25 <frosch123> never saw one of those
14:09:27 *** Wolf03 is now known as Wolf01
14:09:52 <TrueBrain> reconnect only resets colours :P
14:10:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, "intelligent" clients track colours over renames
14:11:01 <Wolf01> so, which colour do i usually have? barbie pink?
14:11:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd call it violet. but everyone can set a different colour
14:11:51 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123 is green and TrueBrain light blue
14:12:00 <frosch123> and we all use the same client?
14:12:10 <Wolf01> you are all white to me, while i'm grey :P
14:12:31 <TrueBrain> yes, Eddi, I use Konversation :P
14:12:35 <TrueBrain> fucking Version requests :P
14:13:01 <Eddi|zuHause> well, but everyone seems to use a different version :p
14:13:08 <frosch123> Wolf01: on my first days on irc, i wondered why everyone bothered to set fancy colours, and noone uses the default black like i did
14:13:13 <TrueBrain> I have version *Ancient* I am sure :D
14:13:44 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, about 4 years old :p
14:13:54 <TrueBrain> I really never ever update this machine :P
14:13:56 <Wolf01> i'm using mirc since... ever
14:14:07 <TrueBrain> (not something I should say on public channels, do I? :P)
14:14:35 <Wolf01> also, i found a way to play ottd on my lumia... remote desktop to the pc
14:14:48 <TrueBrain> ... that is not playing on ..
14:14:53 <TrueBrain> that is cheating :D
14:15:10 <Eddi|zuHause> that's called "thin client" :p
14:15:39 <Wolf01> the only thing i can't understand is why the resolution is smaller on my phone
14:16:11 <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably in the connection/server settings
14:16:42 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27479 /trunk/src/lang (10 files) (2015-12-27 14:16:37 +0100 )
14:16:43 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Remove genders from non-default cases.
14:17:06 <Wolf01> it's nice because the phone has a greater resolution than my desktop monitor :p
14:17:46 <Eddi|zuHause> either you have a 4K phone, or you have a really ancient monitor :p
14:18:12 <Wolf01> fullhd 1920x1080 on desktop and 4k phone
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14:32:42 <Flygon> Eddi|zuHause: My TV has a higher res than my computers
14:33:04 <Flygon> Or was it 2560*1920....
14:33:09 <Eddi|zuHause> that seems completely backwards...
14:33:23 <Flygon> It's a 22in CRT monitor, what do you expect? :D
14:33:28 <Flygon> Cheapest HDTV I could get for $30
14:33:37 <Flygon> And probably better than a $200 LCD xP
14:33:50 <TrueBrain> CRT ... 3 letters you hoped to never read again
14:34:17 <Flygon> I'd rather take a high quality CRT over a shit tier LCD xP
14:38:44 <peter1138> meh, at least a cheap LCD will be sharp
14:38:54 <peter1138> colours might be lacking but then it's not x-raying you...
14:38:56 <Flygon> Hence high quality CRT xP
14:39:06 <Flygon> Good CRTs are sharp too :P
14:39:17 <TrueBrain> I keep getting an E_DOESNT_MATCH when I read "high quality" and CRT
14:39:23 <TrueBrain> parsing stops after it
14:40:15 <Flygon> All my example pics are from the set-top box outputting crapass SDTV
14:40:39 <peter1138> well a good crt may need refocusing, as it's going to be a bit old by now
14:40:48 <peter1138> and they're never as sharp as an lcd
14:40:57 <Flygon> Oh, the CRT's already been refocused
14:41:03 <Flygon> Just phone cameras are BAAD :D
14:41:09 <peter1138> not at higher resolutions anyway
14:41:33 <peter1138> of course they are. who cares about focus when you have 11.2 billion megapixels!
14:41:51 <Flygon> Crap, and the best HD pic I got
14:42:02 <Flygon> Has me photographing an artist's NSFW stream
14:42:04 <peter1138> that's... not very good
14:42:11 <peter1138> the edges are not straight
14:42:18 <peter1138> so it has a power supply issue
14:42:45 <Flygon> Unless you're looking at the camera's shortcomings with the moire effect
14:43:02 <Flygon> I gotta properly recalibrate it... I've just been too lazy because everything's 16:9 w/borders
14:43:26 <peter1138> i threw away a perfectly working 21" crt because... well, crt...
14:43:35 <peter1138> (its focus was suffering too)
14:43:37 <Flygon> You coulda sold it for $30
14:43:41 <Flygon> Oh, unrecoverable focus?
14:43:47 <peter1138> i couldn't give it away
14:43:51 <Flygon> Arcade guys REALLY like- really?
14:44:00 <Flygon> When I tried to get my CRT
14:44:13 <peter1138> i think you're living about 15 years ago
14:44:15 <Flygon> Others were racing for them, because they're great for Arcade machines
14:46:46 <Flygon> If anything, the colour reporoduction on this TV is amazing :P
14:48:55 <Flygon> Because it's a 4:3 TV displaying a 16:9 image
14:49:26 <Flygon> Because nothing amused me more at that very moment
14:49:44 <Flygon> Then connecting the set top box to the most expensive posession I own that isn't a car :|
15:03:07 <peter1138> hmm, i do need to get a 'new' 22" 1680x1050 lcd screen
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15:09:19 <drac_boy> anyone else still looking to use a snow shovel? heh (sorry, just being a bit silly)
15:12:58 <peter1138> it's pretty mild here
15:13:03 <peter1138> just a bit of drizzle
15:13:59 <drac_boy> mm .. whole ground blanked here
15:14:51 <Wolf01> whole air is blank here
15:15:28 <Wolf01> and i now have to run my car for 60km to join friends and watch star wars
15:17:15 <Wolf01> at least is getting better than this morning, i can see my house walls around the window frame now
15:17:53 <drac_boy> ah...soft flurry nonstop I'm guessing wolf01?
15:18:26 <Wolf01> no, just fog, like milk
15:21:39 <drac_boy> ic...yeah not lot of fun these
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15:23:11 <drac_boy> btw you watching the new star wars soon?
15:24:13 <drac_boy> have fun with that..I've seen the trailer and still want to eventually watch the old han solo again .. maybe in feburary or march :)
15:24:32 <drac_boy> (yeah he's my favorite part of the classic star wars..)
15:24:58 <drac_boy> dunno what to make of that funny ball-sized robot with dome head .. but heh guess I'll wait to see the full movie
16:12:01 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... weird... the mission sent me to bring a satellite in a specific orbit, but it doesn't seem to register it as achieved...
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18:20:32 * andythenorth should really do something about eints interface :P
18:20:38 <andythenorth> now that it’s used everywhere
18:21:09 <frosch123> unexpected world conquest?
18:21:38 <andythenorth> success is a burden :P
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20:45:46 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27480 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2015-12-27 20:45:37 +0100 )
20:45:48 <DorpsGek> irish: 12 changes by tem
20:45:49 <DorpsGek> greek: 1 change by frosch
20:45:50 <DorpsGek> swedish: 1 change by Zuu
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22:03:43 <Keridos> mmh, with ECS I get no suitable tiles for water supplies
22:25:42 <Eddi|zuHause> uhm... so... is there a way to attach a solar panel to a satellite that is already in orbit?
22:36:20 <Keridos> uah is there an alternative to nuts as endgame trainset?
22:36:38 <Keridos> nuts is a bit too ridiculous for my taste, not in terms of power, but the design
22:39:23 <andythenorth> what are you looking for in a trainset?
22:42:06 <Keridos> currently we have 2cc but I am looking for more endgame trains
22:42:21 <Keridos> these stop at about year 2000 for normal rails
22:42:41 <Keridos> some faster engines for maglev cargo maybe and for later dates would be nice
22:43:16 <alluke> it doesnt have maglevs tho
22:44:46 <Keridos> now I just need to look for a non ridiculous grf for maglevs
22:45:51 <frosch123> i doubt there is any
22:46:00 <frosch123> maglevs are ridiculous by themself
22:46:26 <alluke> and japanese maglevs set too
22:46:34 <frosch123> i am sure japanese trains and ukrs have some as well
22:49:06 * andythenorth was going to do futuristic trains
22:49:09 <andythenorth> but didn’t get to it
22:51:15 <Keridos> can I set maglevs to not carry any passengers?
22:51:23 <Keridos> and add cargo wagons?
22:51:45 <Keridos> hm, what is the diff between the NML and normal version of 2cc train set?
22:52:19 <frosch123> the nml one is a reimplementation of the other
22:52:31 <frosch123> no idea whether it is feature-complete yet
23:05:01 <Keridos> does town_growth_rate 1 disable growth rate or make is slower?
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23:21:49 <Payl> So I asked this question before but didn't get devs opinion, so let's try again... Why does OpenTTD devs claim that making it multi-threaded is impossible? Take YAPF for example: Every train can route on different processor since only write is saving where train will actually go, and moving trains can be done in same order, routing doesn't have to be... Is there mistake in my thinking?
23:27:09 <frosch123> also, yapf uses caching
23:27:20 <frosch123> you would have to make that thread-local and stuff
23:27:46 <frosch123> anyway, the key to multithreading is to forget about the gamelogic
23:28:11 <frosch123> multithreading is useful for graphics and stuff
23:28:20 <frosch123> not for the gamelogic
23:29:31 <Payl> frosch123: why signals would make multithreading a problem?
23:29:53 <Payl> caching can be disabled or made thread-local, that isn't a big problem IMO...
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23:30:41 <frosch123> because routing affects movement, movement affects signals, and signals affect routing
23:31:07 <frosch123> two trains approaching the same signal section at once, 1st train enters it, 2nd train has to use a different route
23:31:59 <Payl> well this can be solved with per-signal semaphore but i guess this would indeed change logic
23:32:26 <frosch123> when you want to do multithreading at that level, you have to deal with throwing away some results which become invalid
23:32:31 <Keridos> my firs game is unplayable
23:32:36 <Keridos> passenger cargodist is on
23:32:50 <frosch123> you can also precompute the expected train acceleration in parallel for all trains
23:33:02 <frosch123> and throw that away when you later conclude that the trains have to slow down
23:33:05 <Keridos> and apparently in my version of FIRS, engineering supplies are passengers in terms of cargodist
23:33:11 <frosch123> but effectively you will end up rewriting everything
23:33:18 <Keridos> so my engineering supplies have decided to not go anywhere except a few stations
23:33:27 <frosch123> so, yes, everything is possible, but it means to rewrite everything
23:33:54 <Payl> frosch123: well i don't think that would change everything, since there would just be extra logic to make every signal a critical section...
23:34:22 <frosch123> you mean a signal deadlock would deadlock whole openttd, sounds awesome :p
23:34:27 <Payl> Keridos: disable cargodist?
23:34:36 <Keridos> cant do that in a running game :D
23:34:54 <Payl> frosch123: is it possible for a train to "use" more than one singal at once?
23:35:11 <frosch123> i woudn't even know how to count signals for pbs
23:35:22 <frosch123> anyway, you cannot solve multithreading by just adding more semaphores
23:36:55 <Payl> frosch123: obviously you can, by just adding critical section over whole game logic :P
23:37:20 <frosch123> that would be less semaphores
23:37:43 <frosch123> less semaphores -> big sections -> slow, more semaphores -> small sections -> deadlocks
23:38:18 <Payl> well deadlocks would be impossible if you would only access one signal
23:38:19 <frosch123> anyway, generally it helps to first look, where the cpu power is used
23:38:24 <frosch123> because it is usually not the pathfinder :p
23:38:40 <Payl> frosch123: i think its pathfinder in my case
23:38:44 <frosch123> on a client with 32bpp graphics, it is usually the graphics
23:38:55 <frosch123> for ships it is the pathfinder
23:39:00 <frosch123> for trains it is usually the acceleration code
23:39:07 <frosch123> for industries it is the tile animation
23:39:36 <Payl> because my game with 700 trains lag but when i stop lags stop
23:39:42 <frosch123> computing every tick whether the train goes faster or slower
23:39:51 <frosch123> in comparison the path finder only runs when entering a junction
23:40:25 <Payl> well, why would that be slow? i guess its just few multiplications for every train
23:43:30 <frosch123> it's somewhat more, and it is done very often
23:43:36 <michi_cc> Payl: Unless you build railways that consist of nothing but junction tiles, the train pathfinder is most likely not what makes it lag.
23:43:59 <frosch123> it's done more often when the train moves faster and so on
23:44:15 <frosch123> i believe it also checks everytime whether there is a dead end and so on
23:44:44 <frosch123> no, idea, i only remember the result from profiling in the past, not the details :)
23:44:50 <michi_cc> Usually it's graphics, if you have a resonably old system, you could try changing setting/changing "supports8bpp = hardware" in your openttd.cfg.
23:45:10 <Payl> i have 2013 i5.. is it old? ;)
23:45:34 <Payl> i guess my problem is that my map is fairly big: 2048x2048 map with ~700 trains
23:45:48 <michi_cc> Try it, the worst thing to happen is that it runs slower than with the default setting.
23:45:50 <Payl> and CPU usage is at 30% so one vCPU
23:46:06 <Payl> michi_cc: k, will try, one sec...
23:47:30 <Payl> its bit better now, 25% so i guess it somewhat helped
23:48:40 <frosch123> that setting is less about the hardware, but more about the operating system :p
23:48:50 <frosch123> and/or video drivers
23:49:17 <Payl> so i guess drivers should be fine.. :p
23:49:35 <frosch123> i guess we disabled what you just enabled specifically due to win8
23:49:37 <Payl> why would i be lucky with win8.1 and 4000HD? its nothing uncommon? ;)
23:50:08 <Payl> i just wonder how people run huge networks of trains then... because well ~700 trains isn't that big i would guess?
23:50:10 <frosch123> if you had xp, there would be no issue :p
23:50:23 <Payl> if i had xp, i had viruses
23:50:50 <Payl> and i would have other issues like not having drivers for my GPU... etc.. etc..
23:50:50 <frosch123> download some coop games, and check their performance :)
23:51:01 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i totally landed next to the runway :p
23:51:33 <Payl> frosch123: is there a specific site where i can dl something 'huge'?
23:53:28 <frosch123> those games which say "public server" are those which still ran acceptable on some machines
23:53:46 <frosch123> those games which say "pro zone" are those where people accepted no longer playing in realtime :p
23:53:57 <frosch123> or something along those lines
23:54:42 <Payl> no longer playing in realtime? lol... xD
23:55:34 <Payl> well i tried dling one pro zone but missing newgrf and cant be found online
23:56:13 <frosch123> you may need the grf pack
23:56:21 <frosch123> the downlaod link should tell you which one
23:59:12 <Payl> got public game 219, framerate seems smooth and no lags i see
23:59:20 <glx> <frosch123> those games which say "pro zone" are those where people accepted no longer playing in realtime :p <-- or kicked on join because can't catch up with server ?
23:59:50 <Payl> glx: u just get slow server and clients catch up no problem lol
continue to next day ⏵
