IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-10-19
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00:41:41 <FLHerne> greeter: Evening again
00:43:42 <greeter> ah, no news is good news
00:43:51 <greeter> kind of binging on the game, and on irc, since i won't be on a computer tomorrow
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01:53:47 <tipsyTentacle> Hello! How does one plan networks? Like, where to place mainlines and all?
01:57:44 <greeter> hmm, to be honest i'm not really sure. i've more or less been making it up as i go along
01:57:59 <greeter> you might be able to get some inspiration from the pages which describe track layouts though
02:02:01 <tipsyTentacle> Hm... okay! Thanks.
02:06:18 <tipsyTentacle> Ohhh interesting. This will be useful. (:
02:07:27 <greeter> some of those are more advanced than others. there's some i'm too afraid to try lol
02:08:38 <greeter> but i'm not the best person to dispense this kind of advice. i see screen shots on the wiki and main site of really nice, slick, clean looking networks. then i look at mine and it looks like someone on crack built them
02:09:56 <tipsyTentacle> LOL I am sure you're just not giving yourself enough credit. :P
02:10:37 <greeter> oh the networks i build get the job done, they just look ugly lol
02:11:26 <greeter> and i don't plan them out well enough since i'm constantly making changes... making one way tracks two way tracks or vice versa, or making one way tracks one way in the opposite direction
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02:13:31 <tipsyTentacle> Oh. I see. Well, it's hard to plan for the future sometimes ];
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02:20:13 <greeter> and i just did one of those things lol
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02:26:03 <drac_boy> anyone here interested in Sentinel locomotives?
02:31:23 <drac_boy> greeter well to sum it up...
02:32:30 <drac_boy> uk designed (there were a few noteable examples sold oversea) locomotive that was basically an advanced single-man vertical&horizontal boiler steam locomotive .. most of them were for shunting purposes but you had a few steam-powered railcars too nevertheless
02:33:29 <drac_boy> some of them almost look just like a diesel shunter locomotive except for lot of white smoke coming out of the exhaust pipe (instead of diesel-burning smoke)
02:36:27 <drac_boy> the water tank is near nose (re weight balance) .. pistons are under the additional access covers near middle .. and the vertical boiler is within view of the cab
02:36:59 <drac_boy> the one giveaway (other than the odd hood) could be the lack of siderods which were typical on just about any gas/diesel shunter locomotives around that time
02:37:22 <drac_boy> these sentinel locomotive had the piston driving a chain/shaft drive to both axles internally
02:38:20 <greeter> interesting looking vehicle for sure
02:39:49 <drac_boy> that particular boxy-looking one was designed for like 10-20kph operation which suited its purpose for any kind of shuntings or light works with only one single man needed (no fireman etc)
02:40:21 <greeter> well i don't know much about trains, but it sure looks interesting
02:40:25 <drac_boy> oh yeah and that one is a shaft driven one if that wasn't already obvious :)
02:40:45 <drac_boy> greeter well sentinel was a bit unique .. btw it was not only one-man locomotives they built...here's a little surprise...
02:41:52 <drac_boy> hows that for a vertical boiler (you can see the bottom of it in fact) ... bus :P
02:42:26 <drac_boy> the lower weight and higher power of diesel tractors/buses killed off most of sentinel's steam market eventually tho as you can already imagine
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02:47:59 <drac_boy> that was the only one garratt design that doesn't exactly look like a garratt!
02:48:57 <greeter> that certainly looks different lol
02:49:15 <drac_boy> inside pistons (the only lone garratt example of that afaik) ... and the small coal+water supply was carried on the boiler chassis instead of either power chassis's (their idea was that there wouldn't be any front-vs-rear weight imbalances due to fuel useage differences)
02:49:35 <drac_boy> it nevertheless did work well (even if it was only an one-off example) tho
02:50:01 <greeter> hmm, cargo ship is a really slow way to move coal around :-S
02:50:46 <drac_boy> greeter btw the africa garratts actually eventually often carried a water tender with them as to more or less keep some additional weight down on the drivers under the locomotive's water tank
02:51:07 <drac_boy> (yep the tender water was pumped over into the locomotive water as wanted)
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02:56:19 <Gantradies> hey guys. erm.. im running a server in a VM on a friends rack, know enough abotu the command promnpt and teh server commands to do not break anything, is there a simple way to set a dedicated server to automatically load the last autosave without anything external, liek a command line option/switch or something?
02:57:43 <tipsyTentacle> make a shell script and put it into the startup dir?
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03:03:34 <greeter> why do i always laugh at this game whenever bad things happen to me?
03:03:55 <tipsyTentacle> Tell us what happened! :D
03:04:38 <greeter> half my ships are lost, because the first order in the queue was about a thousand tiles away from the depot
03:05:39 <drac_boy> greeter btw there is a different kind of articulated locomotives that for some reason seem to have only lasted in the very early years then wasn't heard of so much afterward..let me try find that name for you...
03:07:58 <greeter> bought the ships in january, it's april and they're still nowhere near the first stop
03:08:27 <greeter> now when i think of older trains, that's the style of design i picture
03:09:02 <drac_boy> greeter well what if I told you its really made up of two separate chassis sections? :)
03:10:16 <greeter> it looks like one solid piece there. how did they do that?
03:11:15 <drac_boy> its really one chassis carrying the usual cab/boiler with drive axles .. then a separate chassis carrying the rear tender section .. and what becomes strange here is that the tender is anchored into the locomotive chassis in a way that part of its weight transfers onto the drive axles (think alike to a car trailer that has its axle set all the way back so some of the cargo weight ends up onto the car's rear axle, not best ana
03:11:43 <drac_boy> so basically its a longer locomotive with the curvation flexibility of a shorter locomotive
03:12:12 <drac_boy> I imagine in that photo the break happens just between the cabfloor and the fuel box
03:12:44 <drac_boy> its an odd idea tho.. a 0-4-6 not exactly being a 0-4-6 :)
03:16:15 <drac_boy> greeter oh and you know how the whyte system works for steam locomotives? (re 0-6-0, 0-4-4-0, etc)
03:16:46 <greeter> well i've never heard of the whyte system actually :-S trains are far from being my specialty
03:18:08 <drac_boy> no wonder that many countries used the UIC (originally based from germany, no surprise) system which could better count powered vs unpowered axles
03:18:27 <drac_boy> even electric/diesel used the UIC system more or less (like eg B-B or Bo'Bo')
03:21:09 <greeter> can't say that i do, but then again trains are not a popular mode of transport where i live
03:22:07 <drac_boy> greeter well thats the tgv (aka france's original high speed train) but its not the one everyone would think of tho... this is a gas turbine example
03:22:27 <greeter> interesting, not diesel?
03:22:36 <drac_boy> funny timing tho..they built it then the 1974 oil crisis happened and the politic was to go for full electrification instead
03:22:51 <drac_boy> greeter..diesel would be heavier and with less power .. not something you want in a light fast trainset
03:23:26 <drac_boy> the one drawback to any kind of turbine designs tho is the high fuel useage even at idle (so they were best for limited/non-stop trains of any sort but even then)
03:24:07 <greeter> ah, true. was just thinking that diesel might be preferred because it's more efficient
03:24:10 <drac_boy> even one usa railroad tried a few different coal/gas turbine locomotives in different duties but eventually all the good ones still left got reassigned to flatland country running which best matched their turbine units
03:26:04 <drac_boy> err..sorry about the double links :|
03:26:46 <greeter> just a small engine lol
03:27:32 <greeter> would love to work for an outfit like that. unfortunately they don't hire a huge number of people like me
03:27:39 <drac_boy> greeter well the 'small' one was a single body unit with fuel contained ... the 'big' one were multi-unit (and some of them even reused old steam locomotive tender with the water baffle torched out to extend the coal capacity
03:27:57 <drac_boy> the second link is a good example of the latter type
03:29:23 <drac_boy> greeter mind you it was not only turbine locomotives that were "supersized" on the UP rails..let me show you a diesel-electric thats really big...
03:31:23 <drac_boy> that thing was actually a twin-engine unit
03:31:42 <drac_boy> (two 645 blocks for anyone else here who may want to know)
03:32:17 <drac_boy> come to think about it *that* is the only 8-axle diesel locomotive I know of, everyone else even oversea only had 4 or 6 axles
03:33:21 <greeter> that could move a lot of cargo. in fact i suspect it's doing just that
03:34:47 <drac_boy> note how its much bigger looking than that one little standard 4-axle diesel locomotive just behind it once again
03:35:04 <greeter> i'd say at least twice the length
03:35:43 <drac_boy> greeter but anyhow to cut the story short .. there is an earlier example of high-hp locomotive that was built oversea for obvious reason..one sec to get photo before I continue this..
03:36:11 <greeter> no rush, i'm still cruising news headlines. history is about to be made here lol
03:43:50 <drac_boy> http://sp9010.ncry.org/photos/9004xx01.jpg short story is a few of these were built in germany then shipped oversea to work for Southern Pacific which had kept trying to ask emd/alco/etc for more than 1200-2000hp output and getting nowwhere with them
03:44:24 <drac_boy> these thing were a bit massive (even the thick chassis depth gives that away too) and had like 3500hp per unit on hand
03:45:18 <drac_boy> and as expected...running these units in heavy trains through the mountain for a long time finally forced the american builders to upper the hp race :)
03:47:12 <drac_boy> (and yep as expected when these units came out SP did buy up a few groups of them)
03:48:23 <greeter> long straight track, i bet the engineers don't care for that so much lol
03:48:39 <drac_boy> greeter its a funny story when you think about it..ask the local builder, get rebuffed, buy something foreign instead, local builder get all worked up trying to match it :)
03:51:02 <drac_boy> greeter about pressing the hand of the local builder...when emd finally built some 3000hp units five years later .. guess who bought a modest number of them? SP of course
03:51:54 <drac_boy> hard to say but I think that the german 3500hp units made emd build that 3000hp unit of their own :)
03:52:57 <drac_boy> greeter as for long straight tracks..that was typical of many lines between middle and west usa where theres lot of empty land and not as many urban sprawls (other than for some of calfornia)
03:53:18 <greeter> exactly. no obstacles to building long straight tracks. highways are the same way
03:53:41 <greeter> i once drove for four hours going due west from cancun. not one turn or hill. most boring trip ever
03:53:46 <drac_boy> these yellow turbine locomotives I mentioned earlier on? they could be expected to run for several long hours nonstop just to get from one yard to another yard at all :)
03:54:17 <drac_boy> oh that reminds me greeter...a funny photo..I don't think its online but I'll describe it...
03:55:42 <drac_boy> it was of a streamlined diesel locomotive somewhere in calfornia .. running at high speed "with its air conditioning in effect" .. you want guess what that really meant? :)
03:57:20 <drac_boy> the nose door was opened letting big gust of cooler wind into the cab nonstop ... this somewhat preceded mechanical a/c units on locomotives hehe :)
03:57:44 <greeter> ah i see. well air cooling is one way to get the job done lol
03:58:14 <drac_boy> greeter .. yeah .. funny way to cool off the hot cab on a long ride tho :)
03:58:52 <drac_boy> later units had optional (then standard) a/c units ... the retrofit ones could be obvious from the large white pod on top of cab roof (its almost the same thing you find on top of certain rv vans too mind you)
04:02:46 <drac_boy> greeter you want know of a slight odd usa-only railroad nickname? :)
04:04:28 <drac_boy> at least the cabless unit did have some basic controls under an access panel in case one had to be moved around on its own
04:04:50 <drac_boy> still.. "cow-calf" .. i always wondered who first made up that term :)
04:07:03 <greeter> hmm, a farmer who become an engineer maybe?
04:08:06 <drac_boy> greeter well theres a lot of interesting railroad slangs from the old days in usa too tho...let me show you some examples...
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04:13:06 <drac_boy> soak her = dump fire and put all sander/brakes on NOW damn it ... hand bomber = later steam locomotives with no strokers so umm you get the idea there .. highball = lets go .. deadhead = ride unpaid to alternative barrack/job elsewhere .. hotshot = priority train (certain freights too)
04:13:40 <drac_boy> oh and 'shin peeler' for when a mail worker has to drag a heavy mail bag on or off the train .. weird one heh
04:14:26 <drac_boy> and I've never heard of it being used outside north america but if you hear "juice jack" it actually means an electric train because .. the juice is that thing from the overhead wires :P
04:14:36 <greeter> lol sounds a lot like the electrical trade, there's some pretty odd slang in it too
04:18:32 <drac_boy> anyway going sleep now so bye ok?
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05:50:29 <sim-al2> tispy, are you planning to fill the whole map up?
05:51:17 <tipsyTentacle> I am planning to.
05:52:05 <sim-al2> Cool. Any freight so far, or is it all pax?
05:53:08 <tipsyTentacle> All PAX. Bullet trains don't have cars for frieght and I don't want to build a second line on normal rails just for frieght.
05:53:43 <tipsyTentacle> I certainly want to try doing both in my next game though.
05:54:09 <sim-al2> Yeah, I like the Japan Set but the regular MUs are not set up right, and they get worse the longer you build them.
05:55:08 <sim-al2> They add horsepower but no TE, so only the front end has it, thus acceleration gets worse with length
05:56:14 <sim-al2> Freight cars are good though, I tried out a freight game with the Japan Set and the cars work well
05:56:25 <tipsyTentacle> Yeah, I've noticed that most of my bullet trains have troubles climbing hills. :|
05:56:32 <tipsyTentacle> Also, excuse me, but what does MU and TE mean?
05:57:21 <sim-al2> MU=multiple unit, ie a train that has the power source (electric motors or diesel engines) distributed throughout the train, instead of in dedicated locmotives
05:57:39 <sim-al2> TE=tractive effort, basically pulling power
05:57:58 <tipsyTentacle> Oh okay, thanks~! (:
05:58:14 <sim-al2> so for example, the 0 series Shinkansen had motors on ALL cars orginally
05:58:52 <sim-al2> Most newer Shinkansen trains have the end cars unpowered though, but nearly all intermediate cars have motors
06:00:30 <sim-al2> Some newer Tokyo area trains have combinations like 6 motors cars and 9 trailers though, mainly because newer technology allowed similar acceleration with less equipment, and thus cheaper building/maintenance
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06:05:15 <tipsyTentacle> Oh, intresting.
06:05:53 <tipsyTentacle> So, just to be sure, this means I should try to keep my trains short?
06:06:33 <sim-al2> I think the problem is that the Japan Set was orginally made before "realistic acceleration" was added, so they only needed to add power to make the trains work correctly
06:06:58 <sim-al2> Probably would help a lot with acceleration
06:07:42 <sim-al2> As you've noticed, the longer trains will have more trouble with hills because of that problem
06:12:52 <tipsyTentacle> hm, is it possible to modify newgrf's?
06:14:22 <sim-al2> Maybe, I don't know if the set has it;s source avaliable
06:15:08 <tipsyTentacle> Oh. So they are not modifiable without the source, got it.
06:15:37 <sim-al2> Yeah, it might be possible to decompile, but that's far beyond what I know about
06:16:04 <sim-al2> They have a site but it seems to have been made long before OpenTTD was avaliable
06:27:09 <sim-al2> If you try an industry set like FIRS, the freight trains get really interesting
06:29:36 <tipsyTentacle> FIRS looks like it would make the game a lot more complex than i need at the moment ];
06:29:49 <tipsyTentacle> that is one cool looking train though. (:
06:36:08 <sim-al2> Thanks, the container train takes fruit to the brewery, where along with a bunch of grain, alcohol gets made and taken to another city by a particuarly long set of trains
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06:37:02 <sim-al2> I noticed you have local stations being served by your trains, do you have a hub and spoke kind of network, or do they work their way around the system?
06:40:06 <tipsyTentacle> Um, I don't really have a hub, I suppose. I didn't learn about hubs and mainlines and sidelines until I made most of the connections
06:40:49 <tipsyTentacle> Typically though, there is a long line down the coast connecting all the cities, and then just a random city (near the middle) where it splits off to another region of cities
06:43:24 <sim-al2> I see, for this system (tipsyrailways.tumblr.com/post/131464240083/update-saga-line-addition-15-10-18igd) will trains travel from Outsu all the way to Saga?
06:44:32 <tipsyTentacle> Oh no! That might be troublesome. I haven't triedd it though.
06:44:49 <tipsyTentacle> Um, each coloured line has it own set of trains to service it.
06:45:28 <tipsyTentacle> So... there would be 5 sets of trains (that only overlap at one station per pair of set) from Outsu to Saga
06:45:41 <sim-al2> Heh, do you use cargo dist?
06:46:49 <sim-al2> Lots of fun, if you have the demand it might be worth trying express trains serving the major cities end to end, that seems to help when a city gets congested
06:47:32 <sim-al2> At least when I use cargo-dist, the transfer stations get crazy busy
06:48:42 <tipsyTentacle> I had a problem with tons of people queueing up at Machida to get to Kasaoka. :|
06:48:51 <tipsyTentacle> I "fixed" it by adding more trains to the blue line.
06:50:01 <sim-al2> Heh, I love it when the passengers go to somewhat random destinations, but since this is virtual Japan you could say it's a popular shrine town
06:51:08 <tipsyTentacle> Hehe I should make a newgrf with just religious buildings to prop down in towns
06:51:52 <sim-al2> I think there's a newGRF with landmark buildings, I don't know how many of them are religious though
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06:53:55 <tipsyTentacle> hm, the newGRF i found seems to be mostly German landmarks?
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06:58:02 <sim-al2> There is a World Landmarks set, but it doesn't seem to have been developed recently
06:59:08 <sim-al2> THe ones drawn seem to be German though :D
07:00:00 <tipsyTentacle> hehe this is the one i found. :P
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14:04:29 <planetmaker> hi :) By still being a holiday. Albeit my last :(
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17:14:33 <Alberth> did I understand your question to GarryG correctly as in NML accepts use of switch names declared later, but it doesn't work?
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17:31:20 <planetmaker> Alberth, yes, I ask whether he declares items in the correct order, thus first the item or switch definition. And only later referencing it.
17:31:35 <planetmaker> Actually I'm not sure whether that's (still) required
17:31:57 <planetmaker> But I think it is. It sounds like a grfspec limitation (not an NML one)
17:32:23 <Alberth> well, the order isn't that important to me, but I'd really like that NML gives an error instead of not working
17:32:53 <Alberth> nml can reshuffle order, at least theoretically
17:32:59 <planetmaker> well, it gives 'undefined identifier', if I understood correctly. Unfortunately I don't know what modifications were necessary to make it work
17:33:12 <planetmaker> yes, it can. And in some cases even does
17:33:23 <planetmaker> But it can't necessarily break loops :)
17:34:13 <Alberth> likely you cannot even specify that in newgrf, so it's an error already
17:36:55 <Wolf01> (i think i forgot an "it" somewhere)
17:37:55 <Alberth> hmm, no good substitute comes to mind
17:38:41 <Wolf01> i can count to 2 in german
17:40:00 <Alberth> ah gut, so wir konnen denn Deutsch sprechen, ja
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17:43:04 <Alberth> so we're considering switching language
17:43:58 <planetmaker> luckily it might be as valid to draw the conclusion that English as your mother tongue is dangerous only ;)
17:44:33 <planetmaker> so both of you are pretty safe, I guess :)
17:44:38 <Wormnest> Well don´t we all die sooner or later, so we´re just postponing our own execution anyway :)
17:45:40 <Wormnest> In any case off to diner now probably with some fat makers ;)
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18:27:28 <_dp_> planetmaker, how exactly GS can act in a god mode? Only few things are allowed with OWNER_DEITY.
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18:29:18 <Alberth> wouldn't it be logical to do those things then?
18:29:27 <Alberth> but it can also act as a company
18:29:34 <planetmaker> _dp_, sure, not everything. But those complement the stuff done as company
18:30:43 <_dp_> actually, only construction it can do with it is building bridges, tunnels and industries
18:31:06 <_dp_> and acting as company implies dealing with stupid stuff like running out of money, authorities, etc
18:31:43 <Alberth> it can also give money, or take it
18:32:02 <planetmaker> ^ exactly. Authorities might be an issue
18:32:58 <_dp_> not just may, it _is_ an isuue, I can't limit town growth in cb because of it
18:34:24 <_dp_> as company that destroys houses gets banned :(
18:36:09 <planetmaker> town growth can be directly controlled by GS, though
18:36:23 <planetmaker> so limiting that via company action is rather stupid thing to do
18:37:09 <_dp_> I'm trying to limit space for houses to prevent growing from outside in
18:38:45 <_dp_> without limit it's just generally better strategy to reserve center for later
18:45:37 <_dp_> and not only it's ugly but also stupidly op for small goals, as you can do it without delivering nearly as much as supposed
18:49:53 <planetmaker> I think I lost you somewhere. If you limit the space for a town to grow you inevitably limit its growth speed
18:54:42 <_dp_> mb, but it's not related to town growth rate, as I want to prevent town from building houses too far from center
18:55:13 <_dp_> so it won't be slowing town growth unless player tries to bring houses somewhere far with bridges or similar stuff
18:58:52 <_dp_> btw, gs has also no way to deal with industries, can only build them but not remove or anything
19:03:16 <planetmaker> _dp_, I think that's an area where we gladly accept patches
19:03:53 <planetmaker> especially when you write a GS, writing a short API extension might come in handy and help and have good chances :)
19:04:16 <planetmaker> with industries... there should be two ways probably: back-talk to the NewGRF so that it closes it and a hard removal
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19:06:08 <_dp_> cool, then I'll do some :)
19:07:34 <_dp_> not rly using GS usually since I prefer to do everything directly with DoCommand but can do some simple just to showcase it
19:08:28 <_dp_> back-talking to newgrf is some other patch iirc (json-smth)?
19:09:06 <_dp_> actually, don't think it's a good idea to involve newgrfs in controlling the game
19:10:14 <planetmaker> something along json was suggested / discussed somewhen, iirc. But I don't know the discussion's result anymore
19:10:30 <planetmaker> _dp_, industries *are* controlled via NewGRF though. So there's no way around that
19:10:42 <planetmaker> if you want to meddle with those
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19:16:52 <_dp_> outh, hit enter accidentaly)
19:18:27 <_dp_> so, basically there is no way to, for example, allow changing industry production without newgrfs because, theoretically, there could be newgrf that controls it?
19:19:23 <planetmaker> that's where it needs the interface between NewGRF and GS
19:19:32 <planetmaker> that a GS can ask the industry to change production
19:22:04 <_dp_> aha, and some fallback stuff to do that if no grf answers the call %)
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19:29:36 <_dp_> at least can remove industry... though technically it's CmdLandscapeClear which can also do a lot of other stuff
19:30:51 <_dp_> but don't see any harm in enabling it for OWNER_DEITY... with patching it everywhere for that ofc
19:35:03 <_dp_> meh, that probably stands true for most of construction stuff))
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19:36:11 <_dp_> everith that doesn't build smth that requires owner
19:36:48 <planetmaker> _dp_, constructing rail as deity... doesn't quite work :)
19:37:12 <_dp_> it requires owner, but removing... why not?
19:37:19 <planetmaker> oh, removing... yes
19:38:05 <_dp_> although it may be useful to be able to construct stuff for specific company as deity
19:38:29 <planetmaker> well, you can do that as company and give the money
19:38:54 <planetmaker> what might be useful is means to set the authority rating for companies
19:39:34 <planetmaker> there might have been reason to not implement that, but I don't know which. And I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed by GS in deity mode
19:39:49 <_dp_> yeah, that definitely will be the first thing I do :)
19:41:24 <_dp_> though I'd really like to be able to just disable that authority stuff completely :)
19:41:41 <_dp_> not very fond of blocking mechanics in ttd
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19:45:54 <planetmaker> _dp_, I don't think there need be way to *disable* it. A GS could simply get means to either set it or to add a value to it
19:49:17 <Alberth> the idea is exactly to be annoying :)
19:50:18 <planetmaker> well, sure. But with the option to set it, it opens new possibilities for GS: to create events, both positive and negative
19:50:33 <planetmaker> and to simulate god-like building stuff in the name of a company as bonus
19:50:49 <planetmaker> of course it can be (ab)used to disable local authority rating, too.
19:50:49 <_dp_> there already is a setting to change it's severity, just no option to turn off for some reason. And I'd use it if there were as usually have more fun things to do than building trees ;)
19:51:43 <planetmaker> and indeed, logically there's no reason why there's no setting to disable it entirely - except that it's about one of the very few challanges left intrinsically to OpenTTD which cannot be ignored
19:53:50 <_dp_> for regular openttd yes, but I only play on goal servers, so have plenty of challenges, authority is just a nuisance in this case.
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20:03:02 <_dp_> hm, if I introduce new commands in patch, should I append them to the end of a list to preserve numeration or insert to where they logically belong?
20:03:41 <_dp_> both ways would work I think...
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21:54:40 <frosch123> well, either that guy uses a preprocessor, and then should also post the macros
21:54:54 <frosch123> or the whole code is bollocks
21:55:10 <frosch123> no point in guessing from that code
21:55:35 <frosch123> at work there was some source code that threw warning on compilarion, which noone could explain and made no sense
21:56:12 <frosch123> then more than a year later someone randomly discovered that some douchbag had a "#define if(a) ..." in some headerfile
21:56:46 <frosch123> which turned regular "if" into magic
21:56:58 <planetmaker> frosch123, I get that very same with that exact code snippet
21:57:07 <planetmaker> I can reproduce it with that minimal example
21:57:33 <planetmaker> (just using some numbers for the engineIDs in the first switch is required to reproduce it)
21:57:38 <frosch123> so you mean with those identifiers instead of values?
21:58:18 <frosch123> i.e. instead of "binary operator requires ..." it should say "undefined identifier ..."?
21:58:19 <planetmaker> hm? I mean as-is. It's not the identifier names which matter. I checked that first thing
22:00:57 <planetmaker> but I wonder that NML warns that both switches aren't used
22:02:29 <frosch123> i assume it's the "str2number" that breaks it?
22:02:34 <frosch123> i.e. does it work with some other value?
22:03:26 <planetmaker> if I replace that by a 4-byte number it's the same
22:04:03 <planetmaker> also with that whole switch disabled
22:04:51 <planetmaker> oh.... it's a *property*. Not a graphics block where he tries to call it!
22:05:25 <planetmaker> so yes, it must fail. But bad error message :)
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22:09:41 <frosch123> is there even a reason to distinguish properties and graphics? or should that get dropped in nml 0.5?
22:10:18 <frosch123> i suspect there are some arcane corner cases, like refittability with capacity > 0 :p
22:13:17 <planetmaker> It helps in definition of default cargoes, I *think*. But honestly I forgot and the distinction seems artificial. NMLC could simply use the default value as the property value
22:13:35 *** Progman_ is now known as Progman
22:27:47 <_dp_> omg, there already is a method to get authority rating but for some reason it returns discrete values instead of just returning rating value as it is %)
22:31:37 <planetmaker> _dp_, yes... but authority rating is not % internally either but a value -1000 ... +something
22:32:04 <planetmaker> it might make sense to expose that... but some people might want to discuss that
22:35:18 <_dp_> yeah, it seems like gs api tries to avoid exposing internal stuff but in fact that only makes it less useful
22:35:48 <_dp_> same stuff with growth rate, converting it do days and adding some bugs in a process %)
22:38:29 <planetmaker> well. The point in *not* exposing internals is that makes OpenTTD modifications much easier when there's a simple API
22:38:50 <planetmaker> then you can modify internals as you like. And simply convert the API values to the new internal system
22:39:16 <planetmaker> Thus keeping API something different without exposing implementation details allows better future-proffness
22:39:16 <_dp_> well, then I think I'll just make setrating accepts same discrete values and leave arguing to those who care...
22:40:46 <_dp_> idk, I don't see any future for gs, so much future-proof it is now :P
22:41:20 <planetmaker> well, that's your choice then
22:42:43 <planetmaker> though I think the GS and AI interfaces work quite well. And extensions are always possible
22:43:33 <planetmaker> However exposing internals (like the detailed values for authority ratings) will need much more careful consideration than just means to set the rating via the existing interface values (those values which also the player sees)
22:46:41 <_dp_> I thought GS is a great thing before I actually tried to use it :)
22:47:18 <_dp_> it's good to be careful with api but not at the cost of reducing functionality
22:48:13 <_dp_> like, nobody came up with a good way to expose TOWN_IS_GROWING flag, so there is no way to know whether it is growing or not %)
22:51:17 <_dp_> and the way gs is integrated, executing in external loop, once per frame with one command per frame limit... so much hassle to work around compared to just patching.
22:51:23 <planetmaker> to my understanding the GS sets explicitly how fast a town shall grow. And then OpenTTD ensures just that?
22:52:08 <_dp_> you can get growth_rate, but if town is on normal growth there is no way to know whether it is actually growing or not
22:52:55 <planetmaker> well, please implement such query function then
22:53:31 <planetmaker> There was never said that "this is it and no more". On the contrary: it was only always that implemented which someone asked for. And which then someone cared to actually implement
22:53:33 <_dp_> that even was discussed in flyspray somewhere, yet nothing was decided
22:56:04 <planetmaker> sometimes discussions need time to hang and ripe till it's worth to pick them up again by possibly shining a new light on them :)
23:02:10 <Wipe> what's the reason to disallow following vehicle on zoom > x4?
23:02:33 <planetmaker> there's no zoom > x4
23:05:01 <Wipe> ugh, i mean max zoomout; i can scroll to vehicle but not follow it
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23:07:14 <DorpsGek> DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 2 hours, 20 minutes, and 46 seconds ago: <andythenorth> he came, he went
23:20:55 <planetmaker> _dp_, I think you might have had a chance if you actually followed-up on zuu's comments... (mind, I never was involved with the API, though)
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23:26:09 <FLHerne> Wipe: Huh, hadn't noticed that
23:26:42 <FLHerne> Presumably because redrawing the whole of such a large area of map each second would take too long
23:28:59 <_dp_> planetmaker, well, I'm not going to pick up developing The_Dude's CB script so not particularly interested in that flag, just mentioned it for example
23:29:49 <_dp_> would definitely need it for standalone script, but as long as I'm only concerned with running servers I don't need any getters, just stuff that actually does smth.
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23:48:27 <Eddi|zuHause> the new forum version still has that bug that doesn't reset the "unviewed posts" icon after a thread was moved
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