IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-09-23
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03:55:10 <supermop> hows it going down there?
04:05:01 <Pikka> not bad :) where are you now?
04:35:07 <Eddi|zuHause> delays might be due to the distance.
04:37:34 <supermop> and how is the continent Eddi|zuHause
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11:07:35 * vnepom slaps vnepom around a bit with a large fishbot
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11:41:58 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not dark anymore, btw.
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15:39:20 * andythenorth wishes minimap-linked cargo chains could be filtered by ‘accepts’ or ‘produces'
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15:47:58 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have a useful UI suggestion that won't make it totally overloaded...
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17:06:01 <andythenorth> I can’t find the max ID for articulated parts in the spec
17:06:55 <andythenorth> for trailing parts only?
17:07:59 <peter1138> Why does it matter?
17:08:13 <peter1138> Oh, max ID. I read it as max parts :p
17:08:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: probably a -1 on that
17:09:01 <andythenorth> sounds plausible
17:09:24 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the highest bit in the 15-bit callback is reserved for "reverse this vehicle"
17:09:33 <Eddi|zuHause> so you have 14 bits
17:09:48 <Eddi|zuHause> which can have values 0..2^14-1
17:11:31 <Eddi|zuHause> note that that last ID cannot be returned in combination with "reverse"
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17:33:02 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: do you know if the limit is for trailing parts only?
17:33:14 <andythenorth> I can’t find the relevant info in the newgrf wiki
17:33:19 <andythenorth> I’m sure it’s there somewhere
17:34:11 <peter1138> what does that mean?
17:34:48 <peter1138> afaik the limit is for all parts
17:35:42 <andythenorth> actually the limit is 8192
17:36:05 <andythenorth> that’s rather a lot less than I thought
17:36:05 <peter1138> just stick with 120 IDs or so
17:36:32 <peter1138> when will you ever have a vehicle set with 8192 items in it...
17:37:35 <andythenorth> 3 IDs per vehicle minimum
17:37:50 <andythenorth> 6 if e.g. steam engine with a tender, or such
17:38:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, that seems too low
17:38:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the leading part can be 64k, the trailing parts 16k
17:39:18 <andythenorth> ok so if I stuff all leading parts > 16k, I just gained another ~5000 IDs
17:39:24 <andythenorth> that could be workable
17:39:50 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that works if you don't take tenders out of the same ID pool
17:39:54 <peter1138> meh, i never understand the terminology you guys use these days
17:40:03 <peter1138> but then again i don't see why you need that many IDs
17:40:15 <peter1138> i just increased it cos 256 seemed low, not because you need 64k IDs :S
17:40:33 <andythenorth> vehicles “need” 3 parts
17:40:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't either, CETS has about 1000 vehicles, so 3000-ish IDS
17:40:46 <peter1138> why do vehicles need 3 parts?
17:40:56 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: to be longer than half a tile
17:41:14 <peter1138> well that's a broken concept in ottd anyway
17:41:27 <Eddi|zuHause> but nobody is going to fix it
17:41:59 <andythenorth> I “need” to put ~12 grfs into one grf
17:42:13 <andythenorth> with a parameter to select the actual set to be used
17:42:56 <Eddi|zuHause> that's still only like 1200 vehicles, assuming each individual roster doesn't have more than 100
17:43:06 <andythenorth> there are 74 in the brit roster
17:43:11 <andythenorth> that consumes 1000 IDs
17:43:19 <peter1138> why 1000 vehicles anyway :S
17:43:20 <andythenorth> because of lazy allocation choices
17:43:36 <Eddi|zuHause> well, that is your hand-made problem
17:43:50 <andythenorth> is that this all arises from making a deliberately small set
17:43:57 <peter1138> worrying about ID allocation shouldn't even be a thing
17:44:19 <andythenorth> there are only 28 engines here
17:44:22 <Eddi|zuHause> there are loads of things that shouldn't be things
17:44:54 <Eddi|zuHause> 5 generations of wagons with 10 types each, or something
17:45:19 <andythenorth> I could just stop spanking IDs
17:45:25 <Eddi|zuHause> but your problem is not the amount of vehicles
17:45:32 <andythenorth> no it’s the lazy lazy allocation
17:45:33 <Eddi|zuHause> your problem is your weird padding
17:45:45 <andythenorth> you might have convinced me to solve it again
17:45:57 <andythenorth> I was hoping for the quick fix, but Dan has convinced me we need 12 rosters
17:46:04 <andythenorth> and I can only fit 10 with my quick fix
17:46:49 <andythenorth> but still, I doubt there are more than 1500 vehicles in 12 rosters
17:46:57 <andythenorth> so 4500 IDs should be used
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17:47:22 <andythenorth> now I have to do it ‘properly’ :(
17:47:29 <peter1138> which is well below 8191 or 16383
17:48:17 <andythenorth> the ‘problem’ is that I wanted to auto-generate wagon IDs, but in a stable way
17:48:30 <andythenorth> eh nvm, I’ll have to set them manually
17:48:35 <Eddi|zuHause> CETS just enumerates them in the table...
17:48:52 <andythenorth> I tried the table route, I think it’s faff
17:48:56 <Eddi|zuHause> make a hashtable :p
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17:49:11 <Eddi|zuHause> hope for no conflicts :p
17:49:41 <andythenorth> currently I have this total horror
17:49:50 <andythenorth> I have a collision guard already
17:49:56 <Eddi|zuHause> (which is, frankly, very optimistic when fitting 1000 objects into 4k-ish IDs)
17:50:32 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but that collision guard is almost guaranteed to break the stability
17:50:53 <andythenorth> the collision guard just raises an error in the compile
17:51:11 <andythenorth> collisions aren’t allowed, by design, if there is one, it’s coder error
17:54:09 <andythenorth> I think it’s just easier to manually allocate IDs
17:55:49 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. it's just an additional number field in whatever you use to generate the file, what you refuse to call a table, but essentially is one.
17:56:53 <andythenorth> the data is effectively tabular yes
17:57:07 <andythenorth> you are right actually, it would be trivial to generate a table
17:58:13 <andythenorth> ok so ‘enumerates them in the table’ is the same as ‘define the ID in the .py file that defines the vehicle’
17:58:20 <andythenorth> and that’s what I should do for wagons
17:58:37 <andythenorth> and new ones simply get appended to the end of the list
18:01:27 <Eddi|zuHause> in CETS i also have code that spews out unused IDs below the highest used ID
18:01:51 <andythenorth> ok, this is the way forward
18:01:56 <andythenorth> just means more re-factoring :P
18:02:03 <andythenorth> it’s how Road Hog works already
18:02:24 <Eddi|zuHause> of which currently there are a lot, because at some point we removed the swiss and austrian vehicles, due to compilation problems. and nobody bothered to put them back
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18:11:19 <Eddi|zuHause> has anyone ever figured out what "like a room without a roof" means?
18:12:50 <Alberth> assuming it's not what it says, nope
18:13:41 <andythenorth> Alberth: you know how we have the cargo chains view, linked to the minimap…? o_O
18:14:01 <Alberth> you marked one of the FIRS 2.0 releases as compatible with 1.5 by accident, andy? Otherwise not having FIRS for 1.5 sounds buggish
18:14:19 <andythenorth> I can’t think of any sensible UI, but filter by accept/produce would be nice
18:14:29 <andythenorth> yeah the FIRS thing is apparently by design in OpenTTD
18:14:37 <andythenorth> might be accidental, side-effect design
18:15:10 <Eddi|zuHause> bananas hides all older versions, even if the newest one is not compatible with the version of openttd
18:15:38 <Alberth> if that's what it does, it's a bug, imho
18:15:52 <andythenorth> FIRS 2.0.0 releases are all marked as min. compatible r24998
18:16:05 <andythenorth> which makes all FIRS releases non-available in OpenTTD < r24998
18:16:28 <andythenorth> and there’s no way back
18:16:38 <Alberth> a bit too aggressive filtering thus
18:16:53 <Eddi|zuHause> talk to the author of bananas :p
18:16:55 <andythenorth> even if a patch was provided, we can’t patch the 1.5.x client fleet
18:17:00 <Alberth> I think what you did is right
18:17:14 <Alberth> I don't know who does the filtering
18:17:19 <andythenorth> or is the filtering on the bananas server end, hmm
18:17:23 <Alberth> maybe the bananas server does
18:17:31 <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably the server
18:17:33 <andythenorth> but bananas is non-upgradeable?
18:17:51 <andythenorth> there is no sane deployment step, last I checked
18:18:00 <andythenorth> eh, frosch bundled it into a VM though
18:18:18 <andythenorth> the mildly frustrating thing is
18:18:27 <andythenorth> there will be no 1.6.x until April 2016 likely
18:19:08 <andythenorth> and there is no way for me to fix this via bananas either, because….by design, no removal of grfs
18:19:44 <andythenorth> maybe I could version bump FIRS 1.4.4 to FIRS 1.4.5 and re-upload that, compatible with OpenTTD 1.5.x
18:19:59 <andythenorth> but I merged by v2 branch to default branch in the FIRS repo :P
18:20:18 <andythenorth> and I have no idea how to split a new branch out from history to make a 1.4.x release now
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18:27:15 <planetmaker> andythenorth, Alberth the bananas server decides what's available for which version. However you get a particular NewGRF *always*, if your safegame needs it
18:27:52 <planetmaker> The (needless) limitation is that only the newest upload is available for normal download. If it limits openttd's versions, then all other versions of OpenTTD are kinda screwed and cannot get any other except by means of a safegame
18:31:50 <Alberth> so upload a 1.5 savegame that requires FIRS, and people can use that to get FIRS.... hm......
18:39:48 <planetmaker> that requires the 1.5-compatible FIRS. yes
18:39:55 <planetmaker> make it a good scenario and it's worth it :)
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18:50:53 <andythenorth> is bananas server tractable?
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19:00:35 <planetmaker> tractable? What does that mean?
19:00:45 <andythenorth> can we do work on it? :)
19:00:51 <andythenorth> without descending into sadness
19:01:44 <planetmaker> oh... hm... frosch knows that best :) I think he has a VM
19:01:49 <andythenorth> I have the VM too
19:02:03 <planetmaker> ok... then I do think it can be done.
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20:13:08 <andythenorth> have I ballsed up svn -> git versions?
20:14:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea what you just said
20:14:45 <andythenorth> r27279 isn’t r27279
20:16:23 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the current nightly?
20:16:40 <andythenorth> no I think foobar is mistaken maybe
20:17:21 * andythenorth puts his glasses on
20:17:24 <andythenorth> I have become that person
20:20:04 <andythenorth> I fat-fingered the version for FIRS anyway, somehow
20:20:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i still don't know what you're talking about
20:21:34 <andythenorth> the changelog and musa.ini specify r24998 for FIRS 2
20:21:44 <andythenorth> but the actual version needed is r27279
20:21:50 <andythenorth> so I just made a plain dumb mistake somehow
20:22:20 <Eddi|zuHause> you forgot to update the value?
20:22:50 <andythenorth> I did something stupid
20:23:03 <andythenorth> I even have irc transcript where frosch gives me the correct number, and later I repeat it
20:23:18 * andythenorth should never be allowed to release anything
20:23:24 <andythenorth> I fuck up about 50% of releases
20:27:30 <frosch123> andythenorth: the vm also runs the bananas server, if you patch openttd with a different content server ip, that connects to the vm, you can download stuff from it
20:28:02 <andythenorth> eh well, I needed a new project :P
20:28:08 <andythenorth> bananas needs some work
20:28:18 <andythenorth> Dan is back, and I want to do newgrfs :P
20:28:36 <andythenorth> can’t everyone just get a nightly? :(
20:29:20 <Eddi|zuHause> what happened to the idea to allow multiple bananas-servers? like one exclusively for legacy grf-pack GRFs, without upload capabilities and thus avoiding some licensing traps that the current bananas doesn't want to touch
20:31:51 <andythenorth> it took up residence in your brain, to be re-stated when the time was right (now)
20:32:02 <andythenorth> oh, we want non-obvious answers? o_O
20:32:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure the question was rhethoric
20:32:35 <andythenorth> there is too much useful discussion here today, I only came here for the cat pictures?
20:33:07 <Eddi|zuHause> taking pictures of a black cat is tricky
20:35:32 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you can totally do that, distribute a custom binary with a custom bananas servers, which only hosts adult-only grfs
20:36:01 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i meant more like config settings for multiple servers simultaneously
20:36:21 <Eddi|zuHause> and a GUI to add/remove servers
20:36:23 <frosch123> honestly i don't see the point :)
20:36:47 <frosch123> everyone uses bananas, and those who don't won't use something else either
20:37:13 <frosch123> and the "allow servers to send grfs to clients" idea, was quite unpopular in the past
20:38:36 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the two ideas that floated around were the already mentioned GRF pack, where authors are either unwilling or unavailable, and the other idea was "beta" versions of GRFs
20:38:46 <andythenorth> we’d never backport 27279 to 1.5.x?
20:38:50 <andythenorth> it’s not a trivial bug fix
20:39:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no.
20:39:12 <peter1138> let's do firefox/chrome style releases
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20:39:39 <frosch123> well, if there are no bugfixes, we don't need any release branches :)
20:39:59 <peter1138> require signed mods
20:40:19 <frosch123> oh, how much does a grf author licence cost?
20:40:54 <frosch123> hm, wait, let's reverse the case
20:40:56 <andythenorth> for €1500 we get first-line support
20:41:08 <frosch123> we only charge if you retire from grf authorship :)
20:41:15 <Supercheese> nah it should be a monthly fee
20:41:35 <peter1138> built in newgrf-store, accepts paypal
20:41:48 <peter1138> newgrf authors get a cut
20:42:05 <frosch123> oh yes, there should definitely be an option to convert real money into ingame money :)
20:42:15 <andythenorth> openttd takes 80%
20:42:32 <peter1138> yes, buy "in-game" currency
20:42:34 <frosch123> andythenorth: no, downloads cost gold, not money
20:42:48 <frosch123> yuo can get cold my converting real money, or by playing ottd for hours
20:42:56 <andythenorth> nah you need a second currency
20:43:00 <andythenorth> bucks, or diamonds
20:43:05 <peter1138> also the base game should contain 2 maps and 2 or 3 vehicles of each class
20:43:06 <andythenorth> which isn’t available from gold
20:43:11 <andythenorth> only by tedious side tasks
20:43:18 <Supercheese> well, diamonds are already in vanilla OTTD, but as a cargo
20:43:21 <Supercheese> might be confusing
20:43:48 <peter1138> we should also have in-game advertising
20:43:49 <Alberth> Supercheese: yeah, I always wonder why the euros I earn are never in my wallet!
20:45:35 <frosch123> would be kind of heavy
20:45:47 <frosch123> getting paid in euro coins
20:46:11 <Alberth> for a 7 digit number I don't mind
20:46:26 <Supercheese> get paid in pennies, be forced to use your own trains to move the tons and tons of coins around
20:46:48 <Alberth> ha, "pennies" would be a fun cargo :p
20:47:32 <frosch123> ST2: no hyperinflation ever happened when coins were involved :)
20:57:22 <andythenorth> I could invent a bank
20:57:49 <andythenorth> which would produce a ‘money’ cargo, but require delivery of the actual input later
20:58:15 <andythenorth> I think I can actually code this in newgrf
20:58:24 <andythenorth> make the delivery requirements tied to previous production
20:58:33 <andythenorth> if there is not enough the bank fails (closes)
20:58:48 <andythenorth> all other banks keep count of the number of bank industries on the map
20:59:02 <andythenorth> if one closes, the others then have a random dice roll as to whether they close
20:59:17 <andythenorth> with an increasing chance of closeure as more others close
20:59:50 <andythenorth> in fact, I can exploit the problem I found when I tried to fine-tune closure in newgrf, which is multiple industries of the same type all closing in the same month
21:00:28 <andythenorth> this simulates real lending, rather than the myth of deposit-backed lending
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22:59:03 <andythenorth> refactoring the Iron Horse IDs was really easy
22:59:14 * andythenorth must have learnt _something_ about code
23:04:06 <andythenorth> 1300 IDs for 130 vehicles
23:04:10 <andythenorth> makes more sense :P
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