IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-09-12
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00:01:55 <Eddi|zuHause> is anyone ever annoyed that you cannot drive away a fly from the screen with your mouse?
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08:21:09 * Supercheese has lost all of his free time to Factorio
08:21:39 <Supercheese> poor openttd.exe, all unclicked on
08:22:09 <Supercheese> or, well, .lnk but close enough
08:23:06 <Supercheese> but I hear tales of new FIRS
08:23:35 <andythenorth> I tried to form a factorio addiction
08:23:40 <andythenorth> but I just couldn’t manage it
08:23:41 <Supercheese> Oh sweet, booze-fired power plants
08:23:48 <Supercheese> ethanol is pretty good for burning
08:23:53 <Supercheese> can run your car off of it
08:24:40 <Supercheese> should have been feature, not bug
08:25:06 <Supercheese> Gasoline Station; Accepts: Alcohol, Gasoline :P
08:31:29 <andythenorth> this power plant fix means providing all the layouts ‘properly'
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09:28:07 <andythenorth> maybe I should play a NARS 2 game
09:30:02 <andythenorth> Pikka: is there a new NARS with no BAD FEATURES? o_O
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09:52:46 <andythenorth> I am trying a game with fewer of my grfs in it :P
09:52:51 <Pikka> new as in about 10 months old
09:52:52 <andythenorth> so I don’t have to fix them
09:57:59 <Pikka> how big is it? internet in this place is rubbish
09:58:11 <andythenorth> also it has to get to Australia
09:58:29 <Pikka> australia isn't a problem, just Stafford
09:58:56 <Eddi|zuHause> ... i just found the screwdriver
10:10:31 <andythenorth> such animations :P
10:10:42 <andythenorth> remind what the point of cdist is?
10:10:57 <Alberth> doing automagic transfer orders?
10:11:18 <DorpsGek> Alberth: 14.2857142857
10:11:37 <Alberth> hmm, can't have all 64 industries animated in 200MB :p
10:13:12 <andythenorth> there is some reason I turned cdist off for freight
10:13:15 <Alberth> looks like an opportunity to smash the record set by V :)
10:13:36 <Alberth> supplies to long distances doesn't really work?
10:13:49 <Alberth> unless you set it to ignore distances
10:14:09 <andythenorth> it’s because you have to build non-bridged networks anyway
10:14:16 <andythenorth> so cdist is doing literally nothing useful
10:14:43 <Alberth> I missed that part of the course, apparently
10:14:53 <andythenorth> separate pickup station is required for every cargo destination
10:15:32 <andythenorth> trying to remember
10:15:49 <Alberth> cdist cannot move cargo after allocating?
10:15:56 <andythenorth> ah it’s because cdist ‘wants’ to assign cargo to routes differently to where I want it to go
10:16:08 <andythenorth> but cdist doesn’t assign cargo to routes, only next hop
10:16:45 <andythenorth> anyway, the result of using cdist for freight is very large waiting amounts at stations, that never clear
10:16:46 <Alberth> right, you don't want to do what cdist says :p
10:17:06 <andythenorth> and also some routes are starved of cargo completely
10:17:49 <Alberth> but in general, yeah, you do have to follow what cdist decides
10:18:33 <andythenorth> oh, but I think my workaround is flawed, industries only distribute to 2 highest rated pickup stations?
10:18:39 <Alberth> I have no trouble with it, but ymmv
10:21:22 * andythenorth has to remember to use transfer orders again :)
10:21:54 <andythenorth> is it known how cdist chooses to assign cargo to next hop?
10:22:28 <Eddi|zuHause> what else would it do?
10:23:06 <andythenorth> what’s the criteria though?
10:23:37 <andythenorth> if I can understand the rules, I might be able to beat it
10:23:44 <andythenorth> currently it beats me every game I try it in
10:24:07 <andythenorth> I can’t figure out any heuristic for defeating cdist though
10:24:44 <Supercheese> distribution mode: manual
10:24:52 <andythenorth> that’s just cheat mode
10:25:00 <andythenorth> dificulty: sandbox
10:25:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't understand your problem with it
10:25:42 <andythenorth> I don’t understand how to beat it
10:26:38 <Eddi|zuHause> tbh, freight was always more of a side dish in my networks, trying to handle all the passengers trumps everything and takes all the attention
10:26:41 <Supercheese> Sandbox mode is the best mode
10:26:47 <Supercheese> well, for singleplayer
10:26:57 <Supercheese> script goals are nice for MP
10:27:07 <Eddi|zuHause> also, last time i used CDIST was probably 5 years ago
10:27:08 <andythenorth> you can’t play script goals with cdist
10:27:20 <Supercheese> sure, I'm not considering cdist
10:27:46 <Supercheese> I have it off all the time
10:28:06 <Supercheese> dest looked much more interesting to me than dist, really
10:28:20 <Supercheese> but I never did get around to trying YACD or whatnot
10:28:39 <andythenorth> what YACD does for gameplay can be done with GS more or less
10:28:46 <andythenorth> different implementation, similar effect on game
10:28:48 <Supercheese> yeah, it does seem that way
10:28:59 <andythenorth> YACD was very compelling though
10:29:14 <Supercheese> someone™ should try YACD-as-GS
10:29:35 <Eddi|zuHause> that's unlikely to work
10:29:46 <andythenorth> Busy Bee is as close as you’ll get
10:29:54 <andythenorth> Busy Bee with 100s of goals :P
10:30:11 <Supercheese> I suppose so, yeah
10:32:10 * andythenorth reads the wiki page on cdist
10:32:20 <andythenorth> I want to know how to win against it
10:32:53 <Supercheese> The only winning move is not to play
10:34:30 <andythenorth> nothing there about how next hop is chosen
10:34:46 <andythenorth> “Cargodist ... chooses destinations for the passengers involved”
10:37:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's a flow problem. all the sources and destinations get weights on them, and inbetween there will be flows balanced
10:37:52 * andythenorth is reading src/linkgraph
10:38:07 <andythenorth> I am confused about whether cdist assigns destinations for a packet or not
10:38:46 <andythenorth> my assumption is that it ignore specific packets, looks only at the cargo type, and splits to next hop in some ratio between possible choices
10:39:06 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: imagine it like an electric network. each link is a resistor, and you have a bunch of + and -
10:39:17 <andythenorth> “ignores” = there is no storage of any destination in packets, is my assumption
10:40:18 <Eddi|zuHause> well, yes. the packet does not store this data, because it doesn't need it. the flow has been decided way earlier
10:40:52 <andythenorth> that makes complete sense
10:41:04 <andythenorth> so my problem resolves to ‘demand appears to be totally arbitrary when I’m playing'
10:41:28 <andythenorth> it obviously isn’t arbitrary, but the results aren’t pleasing, and there’s no way to influence it
10:41:35 <andythenorth> which is not a good game
10:42:40 <Eddi|zuHause> you could try to expose the demand weights to scripts
10:42:42 * Wolf01 is in wall.e building mode
10:43:06 <andythenorth> by ‘not pleasing’ I mean ‘cargo builds up in vast quantities at stations, no matter what I do
10:43:16 <andythenorth> and in OpenTTD, that is a sign that you are losing the game
10:43:46 <andythenorth> that problem simply does not occur if each pickup station handles only one destination per cargo
10:44:25 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the station window tells you which next hop is overloaded
10:44:40 <andythenorth> to which the solution is add more vehicles
10:44:47 <andythenorth> so more cargo is then assigned
10:44:54 <andythenorth> it’s a losing strategy
10:45:46 <andythenorth> * I’m not convinced that happens, it just looks like what happens
10:51:50 <andythenorth> hmm ChangeShare and so on are where the magic happens
10:51:57 <andythenorth> in station_cmd.cpp
10:53:15 <andythenorth> I wonder if there’s a feedback condition something like:
10:53:28 <andythenorth> - station has existing good service on route A-B
10:53:38 <andythenorth> - a vehicle is added for route A-C
10:54:06 <andythenorth> the share of flow assigned to A-C is relatively tiny
10:54:14 <andythenorth> - the vehicle takes a long time to load and deliver
10:54:27 <andythenorth> - the share is refreshed and continues to be calculated as tiny
10:56:32 <andythenorth> the unwanted behaviour I see is when adding a second or third route to a high output industry where the first route is well served, then the vehicles on the second or third route load very slowly
11:06:36 <peter1138> because it's not cdest
11:12:37 * andythenorth must to football and so on
11:12:39 <Alberth> cdist is slow in adapting
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11:50:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm so amazed at how train fever ever so slightly fails at being enjoyable. they introduce crossings, but in the least flexible way possible, which fits almost no situation
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11:51:45 <Supercheese> I tried train fever once, couldn't get the hang of it
11:51:57 <Supercheese> guess I'm too used to TTD-style gameplay
11:52:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i find it somewhat cool, but the construction is ever so annoying
11:52:23 <Supercheese> like how I tried Locomotion and didn't like the construction method/interface
11:52:46 <Supercheese> Factorio on the other hand is great
11:53:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i played the demo, didn't get addicted.
11:53:44 <Wolf01> lol, eddi, i used them a lot in front of the stations, i then discovered they added them just 4 days before i started to play the game XD
11:54:19 <Supercheese> I hear rumors that Factorio will be going NUTS
11:54:35 <frosch123> they are confirmed news :)
11:55:10 <frosch123> next enemy class will be a slug
11:55:39 <Supercheese> same slugs as on the farm tiles perhaps
11:55:41 <frosch123> (that was a rumor though :p)
11:56:41 <frosch123> blathijs: there are absolutely no relations or overlaps between ottd community and factory employees
11:57:50 <frosch123> just as there are absolutely no relation to opendune and freerct
11:58:30 <blathijs> frosch123: Uh, but I just don't know what NUTS means :-)
11:58:59 <Supercheese> could have mentioned YETI but there's no pun to be had there
11:59:12 <frosch123> oh right, the new character model
11:59:22 <Eddi|zuHause> puns are overrated
11:59:34 <Eddi|zuHause> err, no they aren't, actually :p
12:00:39 <Supercheese> well, I'll probably translate for Factorio as well, at least it has far fewer strings, but there is some challenging vocabulary
12:01:13 <frosch123> don't confuse wires and cables :)
12:01:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm still not quite sure what your target audience actually is :p
12:01:37 <Supercheese> well, other people had translated Minecraft before I even got there
12:01:41 <Supercheese> so clearly I am not the only one
12:01:43 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i haven't figured that out for ottd either
12:02:30 <Supercheese> but it is mostly a "because I can" kind of thing, and to keep my language skills from getting rusty
12:02:48 <frosch123> always useful in case aliens visit :)
12:03:43 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: aliens that have been travelling for 1000 years after listening in?
12:03:44 <Supercheese> and, y'know, quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum videtur
12:06:05 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: obviously all polytheism originates from aliens :p
12:06:55 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i did watch stargate
12:07:40 <Supercheese> also there was actually a Flyspray ticket for OTTD specifically requesting a Latin translation
12:08:38 <frosch123> ah, by eddi's best friend
12:08:47 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: there you have your audience :)
12:09:11 <Supercheese> I haven't ever heard from the fellow about it, though :/
12:09:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i have successfully suppressed that memory
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12:57:11 <Supercheese> I prefer bluegrass
13:23:41 <andythenorth> in station_cmd.cpp, how can IncreaseStats() call itself?
13:23:50 * andythenorth doesn’t understand recursive functions
13:24:03 <andythenorth> how can / how does /s
13:26:03 <frosch123> it doesn't call itself
13:26:11 <frosch123> it calls an overloaded function with the same name
13:27:27 <andythenorth> that is...special
13:28:39 * andythenorth tries to find the call to that
13:30:26 <andythenorth> is there a web view of openttd src with line numbers?
13:30:37 * andythenorth can’t find one in git.openttd.org
13:31:07 <andythenorth> that means binary object in my world, i.e. downloadable file :P
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13:33:04 <andythenorth> how is total_duration calculated for non-timetabled vehicles?
13:38:56 <frosch123> cdist monitors travel times anyway
13:39:04 <frosch123> the timetable gui also shows them
13:39:11 <frosch123> it only means that the times are updated all the time
13:40:08 <andythenorth> “Don't do that if the vehicle has been waiting for longer than the entire order list is supposed to take, though. If that is the case the total duration is probably far off and we'd greatly overestimate the capacity by increasing.”
13:40:33 <andythenorth> the vehicle will wait for cargo
13:40:51 <andythenorth> but if cdist calculates capacity based on the waiting time
13:40:56 <andythenorth> and no cargo is being assigned
13:41:02 <andythenorth> the vehicle will sit waiting for a long time
13:41:09 <andythenorth> which is exactly what I see in my games
13:42:13 <andythenorth> I assume there’s some initial value to avoid this, but I am missing where it is
13:44:06 <frosch123> it tries to estimate how much a train can transport between stations per time
13:44:10 <frosch123> for that is uses the travel time
13:44:33 <frosch123> but, if the train is waiting for full load, the total time is longer than it would be if there was more cargo
13:44:57 <frosch123> so, it tries to figure out how much would be transported if the vehicle would be fullloaded immediately
13:45:59 <frosch123> the condition about the total time is probably only a fancy way to check whether the vehicle is timetables at all, or whether it is new
13:51:00 <andythenorth> what’s the initial value from GetTotalDuration(), for a vehicle that hasn’t run it’s full order list yet?
13:56:07 <andythenorth> I have followed GetTravelTime() back, but am in a nest of travel_time vars being set/read
14:02:12 <frosch123> without conditional orders it may be the sum of all order times, with unmeasured ones taken as zero
14:02:25 <frosch123> no idea how conditional orders work, probably they don't :p
14:02:50 <andythenorth> I found something about conditional orders and duration being ignored
14:03:29 <andythenorth> also the cdist wiki page mentions that conditional orders are pretty much game-over because they’re undetermined in the linkgraph calculation
14:04:31 <frosch123> i think there is some function which tries to predict them
14:04:49 <frosch123> it assumes that stuff that is unlikely to change does not change (like vehicle age)
14:04:56 <frosch123> and ignores stuff that is likely to change
14:05:16 <andythenorth> I am not smart enough to understand LinkRefresher() properly, but I might just remove that guard against GetTotalDuration() and try it in a game :P
14:05:18 <frosch123> but well, there is always a case that won't work :)
14:05:44 <frosch123> either you micro stuff with conditional orders and timetables, or you automate things with cdist
14:06:04 <andythenorth> I think cdist is under-tested
14:06:12 <andythenorth> that isn’t supposed to be a big insight :P
14:06:23 <andythenorth> seems to have had a lot of use with pax
14:06:37 <andythenorth> but not so much with freight
14:06:40 <frosch123> yeah, it tries to make pax transport not pointless :p
14:07:11 <frosch123> i never liked pax, because there was no incentive to transport them anywhere
14:07:21 <andythenorth> my guess is (no evidence, just guessing) that most players don’t use full-load with pax
14:07:27 <frosch123> you transported them anywhere, and there were others to return
14:07:32 <andythenorth> or only use full-load where there is an ample supply of pax anyway
14:07:56 <andythenorth> the full-load check on LinkRefresher() would not be noticed by most people
14:09:13 <andythenorth> hmm, did I read this wrong?
14:09:36 <andythenorth> if (this->is_full_loading && this->vehicle->orders.list != NULL && st->index == vehicle->last_station_visited && this->vehicle->orders.list->GetTotalDuration() > (Ticks)this->vehicle->current_order_time) {
14:09:44 <andythenorth> ^ only applies if the vehicle uses timetables?
14:19:13 <andythenorth> but if I don’t have a timetable, how is “(Ticks)this->vehicle->current_order_time” true?
14:20:05 * andythenorth feels like “C++ for dummies” candidate :(
14:20:24 <andythenorth> nvm, I found the answer to that
14:20:29 <frosch123> orders have times no matter whether they are timetabled or not
14:20:40 <frosch123> "timetabled" only means that the times are locked
14:20:53 <frosch123> "not timetabled" means estimated from last run
14:21:26 <andythenorth> @seen fonsinchen
14:21:26 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: fonsinchen was last seen in #openttd 22 weeks, 1 day, 17 hours, 42 minutes, and 36 seconds ago: <fonsinchen> Samu, attach the msvc debugger to it, wait until it happens and check the stack trace.
14:21:27 <frosch123> if your vehicle travels very irregulary, i.e. sometimes takes 12 months to load sometimes 1 month, then that test will fail
14:21:49 <frosch123> there is no proper capacity estimate if you have to average it over 100 years :p
14:22:17 <frosch123> maybe make the train shorter
14:22:21 <andythenorth> if that test fails, capacity is increased anyway?
14:22:22 <frosch123> so it does not load forever
14:24:15 <andythenorth> ho, is there some way I can show the calculated capacity of each link in game?
14:24:43 <frosch123> open the timetable gui
14:25:02 <frosch123> check the total time, divide the total vehicle capacity by the total time
14:25:31 <andythenorth> I was hoping for something on the cargo flow display
14:25:45 <frosch123> it displays relative loads only
14:26:03 <andythenorth> I’m convinced there’s a bug, or I’m stupid, or my expectations are hopelessly wrong, or all three
14:26:20 <frosch123> i think your expectations are wrong :)
14:26:33 <andythenorth> that leaves two other possibilities also
14:27:43 <andythenorth> what is the expected behaviour when a pickup station is served by vehicles on 2 or 3 routes, all with full-load orders? o_O
14:27:50 <frosch123> cdist works with estimates and predictions
14:28:00 <frosch123> there is always a certain percentage that is wrong
14:28:18 <frosch123> just stop looking at single stations :)
14:28:32 <frosch123> if you want to look at single stations, then disable cdist and use manual transfers :p
14:29:19 <andythenorth> or use multiple pickup stations, one per destination
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14:36:27 <andythenorth> eh well, I have no evidence :)
14:36:54 <andythenorth> I had a savegame which showed this problem at all secondary industries, but it is broken :|
14:40:33 <TrueBrain> Going to move main openttd.org website to a temporary server; expect some downtime (~10 minutes)
14:44:21 <andythenorth> did you pause pingdom? :P
14:44:50 <TrueBrain> owh dear, daily logrotate has to sync up
14:44:55 <TrueBrain> lolz .. I should have thought of that earlier :D
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14:48:31 <TrueBrain> okay, should all be back up and running
14:49:14 <TrueBrain> hmm, content server is not restarting ..
14:49:53 <TrueBrain> anyone with IPv6 online? Would love to know if that is operational :)
14:51:22 <Alberth> TrueBrain: ssh is operational
14:51:32 <TrueBrain> tnx, but different server :)
14:51:38 <TrueBrain> www and ottd_content is what I would love to know :)
14:52:03 <TrueBrain> IPv6 logo is there?
14:52:33 * andythenorth tries cdist for freight again, with link graph calculation frequencies set to shortest possible
14:52:51 <TrueBrain> I have issues pinging outwards from the machine on IPv6, but .. that can have so many reasons :P
14:56:52 <Alberth> could download Better vehicle names newgrf from the web, is that what you want to know?
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15:17:19 <andythenorth> what are ‘Station: planned’ and ‘Amount: planned’ for?
15:20:22 <andythenorth> useless / redundant /s ? o_O
15:23:04 <Alberth> I wouldn't know, quite likely that fonso didn't consider them useless or redundant
15:23:20 <Alberth> it's just that I didn't find a use for it so far
15:23:26 <andythenorth> the values for both are the same
15:23:39 <andythenorth> planned is somewhat useful, it indicates the flow ratios
15:24:07 <Alberth> I only check actual waiting cargo
15:24:39 <Alberth> if there is too much, stuff must be done
15:28:54 * andythenorth back to the game ;)
15:29:12 <andythenorth> BB keeping me busy
15:34:52 <Alberth> add trains, remove trains, mostly
15:35:12 <Alberth> move trains from one destination to another, sometimes expanding tracks
15:41:24 * andythenorth wins another goal
15:47:19 <andythenorth> Busy Bee stands no chance
15:47:22 <andythenorth> I’ll beat it easily
15:47:28 <andythenorth> when do I win? o_O
15:51:11 <Alberth> you do, all the time :)
15:53:07 <andythenorth> why does Squid cripple the speed of larger ships on rivers?
16:00:02 <frosch123> andythenorth: i think one is only cargo from that station, while the other is also with transfers from other
16:00:15 <frosch123> so, for pure loading stations they are the same
16:02:01 <andythenorth> too much alcohol at this station
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16:06:07 <andythenorth> OpenTTD: still fun after so many years :P
16:06:45 <Alberth> power plant may need some :)
16:08:02 <Alberth> I liked the idea, clearly alcohol would burn quite well :p
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16:32:41 <andythenorth> delivering supplies to these quarries will ruin my nice stable network
16:36:26 <Alberth> as designed by one A. the North iirc :)
16:37:22 <Alberth> I tend to avoid those until bored enough with the normal expansion of the network
16:38:56 <andythenorth> in FIRS 2, the base production is higher, so less need for them
16:39:20 <andythenorth> I’m delivering some now because I am short of coal mines and need the extra production :P
16:40:44 <andythenorth> ha ha BB is repeating goals again :)
16:43:38 <Alberth> at the start I considered that feasible; if you make the request high enough, you had to do something to avoid the time limit
16:43:55 <Alberth> but now we don't have a time limit any more, so it's never going to work
16:49:55 <andythenorth> no time limit? o_O
16:50:01 * andythenorth misunderstands :)
16:54:07 <Alberth> you do have a time limit, but it's years
16:54:29 <Alberth> and it starts again after each delivery
16:54:51 <Alberth> so you can do things as slow as you like, unless "slow" implies years :)
16:57:53 <andythenorth> it’s a winning feature imo
16:58:10 <andythenorth> the repeating of goals I already won…less so :)
17:02:57 <Alberth> the idea was to make you add more incoming cargo
17:03:09 <Alberth> but perhaps it needs a new form of measuring
17:03:23 <Alberth> ie rate rather than amount
17:03:30 <andythenorth> because there’s already a route set up, I win easily when the goal repeats :)
17:03:36 <andythenorth> so I don’t do anything new
17:03:56 <andythenorth> do we keep the cargo monitor around for won goals?
17:04:03 * andythenorth likes the rate idea somewhat
17:04:12 <andythenorth> I think BB could offer a range of goal types and still be fun
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17:15:52 <supermop> rare to see such a bit of work come out in the summer
17:16:14 <supermop> i guess maybe summer is technically over already
17:16:21 <supermop> still hot here though
17:16:48 <andythenorth> September in the UK?
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17:19:40 <supermop> 80 and humid here in new york
17:27:19 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
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19:22:12 <fonsinchen> I'm here, sometimes ...
19:25:05 <fonsinchen> Seems this is the one time that andythenorth is not in #openttd :/
19:25:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think there's any point in teaching him cargodist, anyway :p
19:26:46 <Eddi|zuHause> in other news, the train fever economy is somewhat terrible... you can only ever service one chain at a time, as soon as you service more, one will starve the other
19:29:46 * fonsinchen stops reading the lengthy backlog
19:30:58 <fonsinchen> Alberth: frosch123: The "planned" modes are useful because they tell you what cargodist wants to send over a link, exactly the projections and predictions you've discussed earlier.
19:31:40 <fonsinchen> "by station" and "by amount" are just different ways of displaying that information
19:33:10 <Alberth> Thanks for the information, but tbh I don't care about those numbers, I only use the currently waiting cargo for deciding what to do
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19:45:24 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27396 trunk/src/lang/latin.txt (2015-09-12 19:45:16 +0200 )
19:45:25 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:45:26 <DorpsGek> latin - 17 changes by Supercheese
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20:56:09 <Supercheese> Factorio needs a Bananas-like content distribution system
20:56:46 <frosch123> yes, and it needs to not crash to console if one mod is incompatible :p
20:57:05 <frosch123> but more importantly, it needs a cargo chain view :)
20:57:23 <Supercheese> oh good heavens above
20:57:32 <frosch123> and a smallmap legend with resource types and highlighting
20:57:37 <Supercheese> I just tried to shift+space to pause a Youtube video about Factorio -_-
21:04:48 <Wolf01> i use the "alt" mode all the time, it's easy to get lost on that game
21:05:18 <frosch123> i want it switched on in the viewport, and off in the smallmap
21:05:53 <frosch123> the smallmap is only red if on, which i don't consider that useful :)
21:28:39 <planetmaker> blathijs, heffer Ammler new versions of NML and OpenGFX. Mostly bug-fix to have a deterministic sorting of languages
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