IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-09-01
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00:08:27 <TartarusMkII> thanks a ton Eddi
00:08:31 <TartarusMkII> and back, sorry about the delay
00:12:21 <TartarusMkII> haha really appreciate it.
00:13:01 <TartarusMkII> I know as Frosch said most people have different play styles and goals, but I'd love to hear more about (vanilla-ish) goals that people have
00:13:17 <TartarusMkII> I noticed that it was neat to finally get far enough through the game to get new RVs to upgrade to, but what would come next?
00:13:23 <TartarusMkII> Connect more cities? what else?
00:24:27 <TartarusMkII> any preference on symmetric or asymetric distro?
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00:48:46 <TartarusMkII> sorry for so many questions. YETI extended towns and insustries is really big. is it any good?
00:48:52 <TartarusMkII> I think it is meant to interface with FIRS?
00:49:27 <Eddi|zuHause> you probably shouldn't mix YETI with FIRS
00:49:54 <Eddi|zuHause> and YETI is monstrous, because it has very detailed animated full zoom graphics
01:10:11 <TartarusMkII> is YETI's graphics more detailed and not pixely like the original gfx?
01:12:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure the thread has example pictures
01:21:05 <TartarusMkII> ah yea it's the other type
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09:31:41 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 4 weeks, 6 days, 13 hours, 14 minutes, and 23 seconds ago: <DanMacK> @seen andythenorth
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10:59:01 <Eddi|zuHause> now V453000 must stop because it's too realistic :p
11:07:33 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you have me convinced on the problem with the quarry / clay pit entrance
11:07:39 <andythenorth> what I don’t have yet is a solution :P
11:07:46 <andythenorth> that will have to wait
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12:06:22 <Wolf01> lol, i remember i used it once, but i wanted true type font and not bitmap because of oblique edges
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13:30:43 <Wolf01> upgrading to win10, bbl
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13:41:00 <andythenorth> I agree with the problem
13:41:03 <andythenorth> dunno how to solve it
13:42:48 <planetmaker> what's the problem there, andythenorth ?
13:43:01 <andythenorth> the root cause is industry intro dates
13:43:14 <andythenorth> and the side effects of those in different economies
13:43:18 <andythenorth> i.e. broken chains
13:43:29 <planetmaker> ahm... yeah, that's difficult
13:43:54 <andythenorth> there are multiple options
13:44:56 <planetmaker> introduce primaries starting in the bronze age. Same goes for ports ;)
13:45:10 <planetmaker> thus if the secondaries are not there, there are still ports ;)
13:45:44 <planetmaker> alternatively it needs an analysis of how the chains look like, say, after each introduction of stuff
13:46:03 <planetmaker> basically it could be two different economies, just attached to eachother in a temporal fashion
13:46:24 <planetmaker> you now have sufficiently many industry slots available ;)
13:47:20 <planetmaker> the introduction of the modern chains could be one-by-one. But all new industries belonging to it at the same time. Not historically accurate. But better for gameplay and hardly noticed
13:48:08 <planetmaker> which somewhat reminds me... you asked me days ago whether I could look at *something*. What was that?
13:48:20 <andythenorth> cannot remember :D
13:48:41 <planetmaker> it was something FIRS-ish
13:48:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: didn't you already have such an iron works?
13:49:44 <planetmaker> are they gone meanwhile?
13:49:58 <Eddi|zuHause> then i don't understand the question
13:50:00 * planetmaker hasn't really played for some time an early years game
13:50:17 <andythenorth> deliberately limited number of industry types
13:50:38 <andythenorth> adding more types to this economy defies the purpose :)
13:50:47 <andythenorth> but the economy is broken
13:50:53 <andythenorth> for before 1850 or so
13:51:03 <planetmaker> well, then the basic economy is not suitable for very early starts
13:51:25 <planetmaker> thus it reduces to a documentation problem :P
13:51:27 <Eddi|zuHause> so you need an "intro_date: economy==basic?0:1850" switch?
13:52:54 <Eddi|zuHause> might replace it with an actual switch, for easier adding/removing of economies
13:54:14 <andythenorth> yeah fiddling the date is possible, and is one of the options
13:54:37 <andythenorth> I don’t like to change industries too much between economies, it confuses players imo
13:54:46 <andythenorth> but already they change cargos in some cases
13:55:12 <planetmaker> yes. Keeping the industries about the same between economies makes sense. Even when not done strictly in all cases
13:55:25 <planetmaker> though introduction dates are not a major thing really
13:58:11 <andythenorth> might be the simplest solution
14:00:01 <andythenorth> I thought of an industry that accepts iron ore and makes goods
14:00:10 <andythenorth> that might be _too_ basic
14:01:24 <Eddi|zuHause> what problem should that solve?
14:02:41 <andythenorth> the Metal Works intro year is tied to the Iron Works intro year
14:02:53 <andythenorth> but the Iron Works is not available in Temperate Basic
14:03:06 <andythenorth> so there is a tertiary with no source of input cargo
14:03:30 <andythenorth> meanwhile the Steel Mill can’t be introduced earlier if all intro dates are the same between economies, also realism
14:03:44 <andythenorth> (the Steel Mill has to come later than the Iron Works)
14:03:50 <andythenorth> this is all daft tbh
14:04:09 <andythenorth> see, it drove pikka away :P
14:04:28 <andythenorth> consolidating to a single ‘basic’ metal-working industry would avoid the daftness
14:04:34 <andythenorth> but it’s not a good solution
14:15:10 * andythenorth proposes an ‘advanced setting’ flag for Action 14 :P
14:17:19 <planetmaker> you mean like suggested setting value?
14:17:48 <planetmaker> it's an interesting idea if OpenTTD got an additional setting state: values as now and 'newgrf suggested'
14:17:58 <andythenorth> my proposal is to be able to offer more newgrf parameter settings, but hide some away
14:18:14 <andythenorth> the benefit is that newgrf authors can be much lazier about design :P
14:18:32 <andythenorth> without making the initial parameter interface overwhelming :P
14:18:40 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean like they are only shown when newgrf developer is active?
14:18:58 <andythenorth> or via progressive disclosure (interface toggle) or such
14:20:11 <planetmaker> ah, ok the 3 states of settings like in the settings window (basic, adv. and expert)?
14:20:27 <planetmaker> That would make sense, yes, to have that action14 addition to allow for hidden parameters
14:20:40 <planetmaker> and even much easier than what I thought initially you mean :)
14:21:54 <andythenorth> I don’t have a specific implementation in mind
14:22:55 <planetmaker> Me neither. But it's just a GUI toggle on some parameters
14:23:13 <planetmaker> thus mostly some GUI work
14:23:49 <planetmaker> and analysis of an additional new flag for action14 where it defaults to 'basic' in case of its absence
14:32:01 * andythenorth is still suspicious of parameters on newgrfs
14:32:10 <andythenorth> but in some cases, there is no obvious default
14:32:23 <andythenorth> or no obviously *always better* default
14:34:57 <NGC3982> You never know, it might reach critical mass in your face.
14:36:25 <Wolf01> here i am, with windows ten
14:45:51 <Eddi|zuHause> so you should be Wolf10 now?
14:46:48 <__ln__> hey, i was about to say that
15:01:16 <Wolf01> it's time to try if games get a performance improvement with this update... lets play... ottd
15:06:42 <Wolf01> mmmh, my icons on the start screen are gone, i need to find again all the stuff
15:23:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess that is "normal" for windows to move everything around with every version
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16:21:55 <TELK> Hi, uploading new stuff at bananas still not works.
16:22:10 <planetmaker> TELK, did you try to use musa?
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16:48:54 <TELK> Thanks planetmaker, musa works.
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19:07:34 <frosch123> imagine you were one of those who maintain flash :p
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19:11:30 <Eddi|zuHause> you'd quit now and say "what a relief..."
19:12:07 <Alberth> ha, like the next piece of software is going to be any better :p
19:12:24 <frosch123> it will have a better image for some while
19:12:52 <frosch123> but people have been beating on flash for 5 years and more?
19:13:05 <Eddi|zuHause> well, like microsoft did with discarding internet explorer
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20:19:56 <frosch123> were you part of the initial development in your youth?
20:20:22 <frosch123> and then went on to join the development of ie6?
20:20:44 <frosch123> would be an awesome cv :p
20:24:06 <frosch123> hmm, it's actually tuesday
20:24:39 <Alberth> yep, and september 1st
20:25:31 <frosch123> but the debian changelog entry contains a week day
20:25:44 <frosch123> which i had some difficulties with :p
20:27:07 <andythenorth> why didn’t we limit the game to 1850-2050 :P
20:27:10 <frosch123> anyway, i still do not know who reads the release news posts, but we had only half the testers in double the rc time
20:27:14 <andythenorth> all problems would be solved
20:28:07 <frosch123> andythenorth: enable window 10's gui zoom, that hides both the toolbar and the statusbar
20:28:14 <frosch123> no date, problem solved
20:28:33 <frosch123> they added that feature specifically for you, to convert you from max
20:28:36 <Alberth> limit all industries to 1850?
20:29:33 <Alberth> I mean they get 200 years of play, and still not enough??
20:29:34 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27392 /branches/1.5 (5 files in 3 dirs) (2015-09-01 20:29:29 +0200 )
20:29:35 <DorpsGek> [1.5] -Update: Documentation
20:30:27 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. force-quit the game in 2050... that invalidates all the coop and maglev-only styles :p
20:30:31 <frosch123> Alberth: if you increase the purchase costs to "raise" difficulty, you have to run the game on fast forward while afk, to get money for the next thing
20:31:42 <Alberth> well, don't play hard setting when you cannot handle it :)
20:31:55 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27393 /tags/1.5.2 (10 files in 4 dirs) (2015-09-01 20:31:52 +0200 )
20:41:37 <andythenorth> your arm is broken?
20:41:48 <andythenorth> or you fell over?
20:42:02 <andythenorth> or that is some other appendage?
20:43:14 <frosch123> maybe he rotated left
20:43:58 <andythenorth> overflowed to a negative?
20:43:59 <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe he fell over
20:55:43 <_dp_> hm, so there was rc after all... I saw it in svn but didn't take in seriously since there was no announcement.
21:02:35 *** DorpsGek changes topic to "1.5.2 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | Logs: @logs | #openttd.dev if this channel is really spammy"
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22:15:35 <planetmaker> hm, so we missed the announcement, eh? :S
22:15:48 <frosch123> you have a chance this time :p
22:16:22 <planetmaker> making a release when?
22:16:36 <frosch123> it's on the page for an hour :p
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22:38:11 <andythenorth> industry intro year means adding a switch to a cb chain
22:38:22 <andythenorth> can’t use the existing property handling :P
22:40:17 * andythenorth considers removing all intro years
22:40:27 <andythenorth> it causes no end of problems
22:42:09 <andythenorth> probability is static for industry lifetime, or varies
22:42:23 <andythenorth> hmm could vary on a continuous gradient
22:42:29 <andythenorth> this is an Eddi shaped idea
22:52:54 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I want to vary industry construction probability by year. Should I do it sawtooth (step changes), or interpolating between values (smooth gradient), or something else?
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22:59:08 <frosch123> andythenorth: step changes are good enough. industries do not spawn suddenly, so there is already one step of smoothing
22:59:34 <andythenorth> I wonder about pathological results at map gen
22:59:49 <andythenorth> start in 1869, get one set of industries, start in 1870 get a very different set
22:59:55 <andythenorth> dunno, might be overthinking it
23:00:04 <frosch123> call it a feature :)
23:01:00 <andythenorth> simpler calculation this way
23:01:15 <andythenorth> Iron Horse etc already have the same code for vehicle livery variations
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