IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-07-27
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00:05:24 <argoneus> I feel like playing this game again with some friends
00:05:36 <argoneus> do the nightly builds have any cool new features or is the stable fine?
00:05:42 <argoneus> I wasn't following it too much recently :<
00:06:41 <argoneus> new since the stable release
00:07:17 <Sylf> I don't know of anything cool yet
00:11:20 <argoneus> V453000: are you there friend?
00:13:25 <argoneus> or maybe someone else knows
00:13:29 <argoneus> is there a "recommended" starting date for NUTS?
00:13:47 <argoneus> I know it's "whatever date you want", but I'm not sure how the early trains are
00:23:05 <Sylf> but if you start in 1900, you get constant stream of new trains until 2100
00:23:52 <Sylf> I like starting in 1920 with NUTS.
00:31:56 <argoneus> if you don't use a road vehicle pack
00:32:02 <argoneus> how do you handle large cities with buses?
00:32:10 <argoneus> to make them grow and to transport people
00:32:35 <argoneus> using the german road vehicle pack with trams that can transport 200 people seems like cheating
00:32:39 <Sylf> You probably don't, or ignore the pax waiting at pus stops
00:32:49 <argoneus> how do people manage in the pro games?
00:32:52 <argoneus> or do they use road vehicle packs
00:33:59 <Sylf> I've seen everything from town grf that controls pax generation, to using trams with high capacity, to trains through the town (metro trains)
00:34:37 <argoneus> town grf that controls pax generation? tell me more
00:38:59 <argoneus> considering the people I'll be playing with are new to the game
00:39:03 <argoneus> I probably shouldn't go full NUTS
00:39:51 <argoneus> aren't the UKRS trains super slow?
00:40:00 <Sylf> still one of my favorite, despite ukrs2
00:40:09 <Sylf> slow trains, or slows down the game?
00:40:25 <Sylf> no, unless you're expecting maglev trains
00:43:02 <argoneus> Sylf: you mean UK Renewal Set?
00:44:30 <Supercheese> even has an addon set
00:44:33 <argoneus> I'm a bit overwhelmed with all the grfs
00:44:38 <argoneus> only played vanilla and NUTS
00:44:42 <argoneus> but NUTS is not forgiving to new players
00:45:00 <Sylf> NUTS is only overwhelming with its number of choices
00:45:01 <argoneus> even refitting is unintuitive
00:45:10 <argoneus> like people who never even heard of the game
00:45:32 <Sylf> if refitting is a game stopper, then any newgrf train is not very good
00:45:43 <argoneus> I'll just use nuts and german vehicle road set
00:45:54 <argoneus> that will give people a lot of options to do whatever
00:46:37 <argoneus> ISR, NUTS, GRV, TBRS
00:47:02 <argoneus> are there any GRFs you guys can't live without? like town graphics or road graphics or whatever
00:47:18 <argoneus> having so many options is good and bad at the same time ._.
00:47:33 <Sylf> vanilla openttd is great.
00:47:53 <Sylf> loading different combination of newgrf is great.
00:47:57 <argoneus> I'll just keep these four for now
00:48:10 <argoneus> most people will ever use trains only anyway
00:50:13 <argoneus> wow, there's no GRF for european city names
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01:15:32 <argoneus> to download all the newgrfs a savegame needs?
01:15:35 <argoneus> with a dedicated linux server
01:16:06 <glx> there are console commands
01:16:15 <argoneus> there's only content select X to do it manually
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01:46:04 <argoneus> I swear there was a switch to auto kill a company for inactivity
01:46:08 <argoneus> but I can't find it in the config
01:46:56 <argoneus> ah, autoclean_companies
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10:39:54 <planetmaker> someone should tell Zuu that DevZone can host git repos just fine ;)
10:41:27 <planetmaker> just that building NewGRF projects from git repos is not supported - but only due to lack of support from the build script which someone[TM] could also fix in the form of providing patches
10:46:44 <planetmaker> :) or wait till I meet him here
10:46:48 <Alberth> at least he replied to the forum, although I haven't seen him here today
10:47:23 <Alberth> I am sure he'll turn up somewhen :)
10:47:24 <planetmaker> as said in the other channel: I really like the idea of one (or maybe two, one git on hg) repo to build test builds from for us
10:47:45 <planetmaker> and on DevZone it's easy for us to configure it to whatever needs we might have :)
10:47:46 <Alberth> yeah, we don't need it often, but it's nice to have
10:48:11 <Alberth> I should really play a game with his patch
10:48:22 <planetmaker> gs2newgrf talk one, yes?
10:48:37 <planetmaker> it's intriguing me, too :)
10:50:10 <Alberth> hmm, moving both git and hg at the same time is confusing :)
10:50:50 <planetmaker> what's git's equivalent for hg manifest?
10:52:00 <Alberth> (yeah, I didn't know it :) )
10:52:07 <planetmaker> seems git ls-files or so
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10:52:38 <blathijs> planetmaker: ls-files lists files in the index / working copy only I think
10:53:15 <planetmaker> blathijs, so I can't specify a revision? That default it only lists working copy is totally fine
10:53:24 <planetmaker> and that's what hg manifest does, too
10:53:39 <blathijs> planetmaker: Yeah, you can't specify a revision AFAICS
10:53:50 <planetmaker> yup, that's where I found it, Alberth ;)
10:54:25 <planetmaker> hm, yours is different :)
10:54:47 <Alberth> many websites have more than one page :p
10:55:19 <planetmaker> now that you tell me... a whole new world opens :)
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12:20:58 <argoneus> is 15 the hardcoded amount of max companies?
12:22:02 <planetmaker> yes. But it's a limit in many parts. Thus changing the constant will not do the trick. It needs many deep code changes
12:22:27 <planetmaker> that includes NewGRF specs, command handling etc
12:23:46 <argoneus> um, forgive my ignorance
12:23:59 <argoneus> but what does the number of companies have to do with specs?
12:24:06 <argoneus> is it that the number is a 4 bit number or something?
12:25:23 <Alberth> so some fields are 4 bit for the company number
12:25:49 <Alberth> more companies means you have to move data, or find room elsewhere, which may not always exist
12:27:37 <argoneus> this game really is on a tight budget huh
12:27:57 <argoneus> you don't want to raise many requirements
12:30:14 <Alberth> it's not simple adding stuff
12:30:47 <Alberth> you have to find all occurrences, see how you can handle the additional data
12:31:09 <Alberth> and that increase works through everywhere
12:31:20 <Alberth> maps get bigger save files get bigger
12:32:14 <Alberth> if you add a byte to each tile, at 4k x 4k, that 16MB
12:33:42 <Alberth> we may need a different map layout to fix, but that means you need a new data structure that is still bloody fast to access
12:34:42 <Alberth> it's not that we don't want it, but such undertakings take loads and loads of time
12:35:12 <Alberth> so you need someone dedicated to the problem enough to do it
12:36:13 <Alberth> and you may find there is no good solution
12:37:26 <Alberth> suggesting it takes 5 minutes, implementing something like this is soon a few years, as nobody works full-time on the project
12:38:12 <Alberth> assuming you don't mind having desync and crash issues lying around for a few years
12:39:44 <Alberth> and all that for a handful of MP players
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12:42:30 * andythenorth wonders how to patch build script for git :P
12:42:39 <andythenorth> maybe not right now, but in 2 weeks, after holidays
12:53:48 <Alberth> what's there to patch?
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14:15:58 <planetmaker> Alberth, basically it needs patching (or at least checking) the build scripts by the devzone and the (standard) Makefile for NewGRFs:
14:17:54 <planetmaker> that should be it, I think. Most of the work is actually already done. Mostly it's untested, though
14:20:48 <planetmaker> also @ andythenorth ^
14:21:49 <planetmaker> I structured it basically in a similar way to openttd's configure script which checks for the VCS and gets the needed information accordingly. But leaves the rest untouched
14:25:50 <Alberth> a little more generic than I expected :)
14:27:29 <planetmaker> the first two are fairly generic, yes; but it's simple stuff
14:27:46 <planetmaker> and the latter three are taylored towards newgrfs, of course and it's basically the same thing again :)
14:28:15 <argoneus> has anyone here had successful passenger only games?
14:28:38 <planetmaker> does mail count as passenger? :D
14:28:50 <argoneus> I'm not sure how I want to connect the cities
14:28:57 <argoneus> like if I want one line that goes through all of them in a loop
14:29:03 <argoneus> or just between pairs
14:29:59 <Alberth> with cdist, a big loop is going to be a mess
14:30:10 <argoneus> yeah I use assymetric cdist
14:30:18 <argoneus> I thought like having a train+bus in each city
14:30:21 <argoneus> then a bunch of buses in the cities
14:31:04 <argoneus> thats what im gonna do I guess
14:32:01 <Eddi|zuHause> with cdist you want a mesh, not a loop
14:32:10 <Alberth> the problem is that pax want to travel to neighbouring towns
14:32:30 <Alberth> to ALL neighbouring towns
14:32:30 <argoneus> ill just do it like real life
14:32:31 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: as many direct connections as possible
14:32:37 <argoneus> have a bus network in every city
14:32:43 <argoneus> and pair cities together with trains
14:33:07 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: straight lines with many cities may help reduce loading/unloading times
14:34:14 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have A<->B and B<->C, people going A<->C have to unload and load again at B, if instead you have A<->B<->C, they can stay in the train
14:35:03 <Eddi|zuHause> that is especially helpful with train sets that have long distance trains with low loading speed
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15:21:53 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: but doesn't that mean I have one big loop?
15:22:06 <argoneus> or by stay in the train you mean stay in the station
15:22:24 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: you have a network of straight lines
15:23:08 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: so train from city A goes to city B, unloads passengers and goes back
15:23:18 <argoneus> another train comes from city C to city B to the same station, and loads the people?
15:23:19 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: you only combine A<->B and B<->C if there is no shorter direct route A<->C
15:26:49 <Eddi|zuHause> (except that the map is not euclidean, so this "ideal" method doesn't quite work)
15:34:37 <argoneus> don't make PAX in 1930
15:34:41 <argoneus> the cities are too small to make profit
15:36:10 <Eddi|zuHause> that is totally the opposite of my experience...
15:36:51 <SpComb> you gotta build those railway stations and claim your right-of-ways near the center of the towns before they grow too big :)
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15:37:05 <Eddi|zuHause> go through the largest cities, find two that are close (there pretty much always are), build a tram in each of them, and connect them by train
15:37:33 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't have to be too close to the town center with cdist
15:38:01 <Eddi|zuHause> just make sure the tram line between station and town center has excess capacity
15:38:25 <Eddi|zuHause> because usage will skyrocket
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16:08:35 <argoneus> cargodist broke for one of my friends
16:08:50 <argoneus> it says 2200 crates of goods to reykjavik valley
16:09:03 <argoneus> he has a train refitted for goods to load them and unload at reykjavik valley, but it's stuck loading
16:09:13 <argoneus> it doesn't want to load the goods
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16:11:02 <Alberth> cdist needs a little time to adapt to new routes
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16:12:15 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: try sending the train empty one roundtrip
16:12:34 <argoneus> he sent it to depot and back
16:13:23 <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes cdist has weird effects when things take too long
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16:36:23 <argoneus> is there a proper use for entry/exit signals? I figured that most of my use cases can be replaced by a single path signal
16:36:44 <argoneus> specifically in station design
16:36:50 <argoneus> I know there is but I don't remember
16:39:28 <planetmaker> there mostly is no use for bock signals when you use path signals
16:39:45 <planetmaker> for none of the block signals, including entry-, combo- and exit-signals
16:40:16 <argoneus> so block signals are only good for the tricks like throttling traffic?
16:41:46 <Alberth> the only time I went back to block signals is when I found that path signals wait for moving trains
16:41:47 <planetmaker> dunno what you mean with 'throtteling traffic'. But yes, you can use them for funky effects like building a calculator with them
16:42:16 <argoneus> Alberth: wait for moving trains?
16:42:25 <Alberth> which at high rates of incoming traffic is quite nasty :p
16:42:56 <Alberth> when a train is leaving, it waits
16:43:07 <Alberth> instead of picking another platform or so
16:43:08 <argoneus> I thought trains reserve a path before they leave
16:43:39 <Alberth> I mean the next train waits for the train already there
16:43:55 <argoneus> doesn't it pick a free platform?
16:44:01 <argoneus> I thought that was the selling point
16:44:07 <Alberth> normally not a problem, except when you really cannot afford to block the entry at all
16:44:26 <Alberth> it does, but after a very short while
16:44:57 <Alberth> like I said, it's only important when you're dealing with very high rates of traffic
16:45:57 <Alberth> really don't worry about it
16:46:43 <Alberth> should be fine, except I'd remove the block signals directly after the junction
16:47:04 <Alberth> you want sufficient space after the junction for a train to stop
16:47:15 <argoneus> it could stop at the crossroad
16:47:41 <Alberth> for performance it doesn't matter, as path signals don't care about multiple trains in the block
16:48:46 <argoneus> is it bad I'm sad path signals were added? :D
16:48:54 <argoneus> block signals just take so much more thought and they look cool
16:49:02 <argoneus> but they're inferior
16:49:11 <Alberth> nobody forces you to use path signals
16:49:19 <argoneus> well I want to have optimized everything
16:49:42 <Alberth> premature optimization is the root of much evil :p
16:50:09 <Alberth> you're likely to waste loads of time at non-relevant parts
16:50:19 <argoneus> that's the fun part though
16:51:14 <Alberth> hmm, if you make the split after the first path signal longer, you could add a signal just before the junction
16:51:51 <Alberth> and I'd remove the connection between the 2nd and 3rd platform
16:52:21 <Alberth> let me find an example
16:58:33 <Alberth> each platform has a an entry and exit shared with another platform
17:02:31 <Alberth> obviously, the 2nd train of a pair cannot move while the 1st is moving and vice-versa
17:02:46 <Alberth> if your loading times are long enough, that's not a problem
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17:08:50 <Alberth> partly also because of other tracks nearby, and industries and other stations that are in the way :p
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20:37:09 <DorpsGek> DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 7 hours, 54 minutes, and 29 seconds ago: <andythenorth> maybe not right now, but in 2 weeks, after holidays
20:39:39 <argoneus> is there a quick way to show current amount of players on a website?
20:39:48 <argoneus> without implementing the whole admin port thing
20:43:00 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone find it amazing that dan comes here, does his usual thing, and gets the reply "i'm back in 2 weeks"? :p
20:44:11 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: sure, just use the interface the game uses to get server info
20:44:26 <Eddi|zuHause> which is one single UDP package
20:45:25 <argoneus> do you think it's a bad idea to poll for this every time someone loads the website? like maybe have it on a cron and store it in redis or whatver?
20:45:35 <argoneus> I'm not an experienced webdev (._.)
20:45:48 <Eddi|zuHause> UDP packages are very lightweight
20:46:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the game sends hundreds of them out every time you open the server page
20:46:30 <argoneus> yeah but if I put it on a website
20:46:38 <argoneus> then people could use that to ddos the server kinda
20:47:00 <argoneus> they might as well start the game, find it in the server list and ddos that
20:47:41 <Eddi|zuHause> you'll have quite a hard time DDOS-ing anything through UDP
20:47:58 <argoneus> you can still flood the line
20:48:07 <argoneus> and make requests take longer
20:48:24 <Eddi|zuHause> UDP packages are thrown away all the time
20:48:47 <Eddi|zuHause> which is why the game sends out like 3 equvalent ones in the hope at least one gets through
20:49:35 <argoneus> is there any doc for this basic server info pack(et|age?)
20:49:40 <argoneus> or do I need to dig in source
20:49:57 <argoneus> I can't seem to find it on the wiki
20:50:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure there is an explanation for this somewhere
20:50:37 <argoneus> on wiki or in doxygen?
20:52:25 <Alberth> sure that'd be more efficient than just doing the admin port thingie?
20:53:21 <argoneus> Alberth: isn't it a bad idea to query the admin port every time someone loads the website?
20:53:58 <argoneus> then again I always worry about how to make things properly and in the end I don't even have a working prototype because I get bored
21:02:44 <Alberth> argoneus: I am just very amazed about "admin port is too much work, let's do custom source code checking and hacking to get an inferior partial solution instead"
21:03:36 <Alberth> argoneus: given that there exist servers today that use the admin port, I'd say it can't be that bad :)
21:03:45 <argoneus> but do I want to cache the information
21:03:50 <argoneus> or query for it evertime someone loads the website
21:03:54 <argoneus> I'm not sure how heavy it is
21:04:12 <argoneus> it won't matter in my case but exercise is exercise
21:04:21 <Alberth> I said something about premature optimization already didn't I? :)
21:04:48 <Alberth> no way to know in advance, just try it, and optimize when needed
21:05:47 <Eddi|zuHause> how many million views per minute do you think your website gets?
21:06:30 <argoneus> like 0.000005 million
21:06:38 <Eddi|zuHause> that is about the order of magnitude i think that "performance" should even enter the consideration
21:06:58 <argoneus> you hear these nightmare stories
21:07:03 <argoneus> how people made some random shit project, and it blew up
21:07:08 <argoneus> and then they couldn't handle the traffic and it fucked up
21:07:34 <argoneus> then again if you get a facebook esque that blows up I assume fixing your infrastructure is the least of your problems with all the money you have
21:07:35 <Rubidium> it's not like the OpenTTD website is optimised, but it survived slashdot fairly easily
21:07:36 <Eddi|zuHause> sure. but for every such project that blew up, a million projects didn't blow up.
21:07:42 <frosch123> just redirect people to pikkas fundraiser, if the load is too big
21:07:43 <Eddi|zuHause> it's just how it works...
21:08:03 <argoneus> for random projects, functionality > scalability?
21:08:24 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: didn't we go through this last year already?
21:08:26 <argoneus> I just keep underestimating today's computers
21:09:19 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: there was no physical evidence of a submarine back then; now they've found one.
21:09:34 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: i'm sure it's totally unrelated
21:10:12 <Rubidium> argoneus: good practice is to write simple to understand code and optimize the hot spots. Arguably you can get more performance gain from tuning the web server / php / python than querying the server
21:10:37 <Rubidium> if you're that concerned about performance for a connecting client, then just generate static HTML every X seconds
21:10:59 <glx> and your wrapper around admin port can do all the necessary caching
21:11:06 <Alberth> argoneus: scalability is a non-issue until you actually have functionality
21:11:59 <glx> (if caching is really needed)
21:12:14 <argoneus> I don't even know how to cache :<
21:12:42 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: the point is, you don't have to know. just prepare your code to have a cache added later, when the need arises
21:13:28 <argoneus> yeah I don't even know how to do that, I don't do webdev
21:13:35 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: there are definitely standard solutions for caching
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21:44:20 <NGC3982> I started this EVE thing
21:44:35 <NGC3982> And i haven't used the rest of the internet for the last year.
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21:57:18 <Supercheese> that is precisely why I checked out EVE and said, "Nope."
21:57:27 <Supercheese> would be far too consuming
23:39:56 <Wolf01> A train cannot turn it's direction on the rail by itself or magic game mechanic. This is different to games like OpenTTD!
23:40:41 <Wolf01> need to build a double headed train
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