IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-07-14
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13:55:15 <Garfield> I would like to ask something about bananas newgrf.
13:56:46 *** Garfield is now known as Garfield222
13:57:42 <Garfield222> I would like to ask something about bananas newgrf.
13:59:09 <planetmaker> without a question it's unlikely anyone can answer it :)
14:00:13 <Garfield222> Are there somewhere documentation how version number/naming are created for newgrf files.
14:00:52 <planetmaker> they're defined by the author
14:01:06 <planetmaker> and can basically be chosen arbitrarily
14:01:48 <Garfield222> I am asking because I have difficulty to understand what file are newer. Eg. NuTracks-1.1.2.tar.gz , NuTracks-r234.tar.gz
14:02:05 <planetmaker> additionally there's a numeric-only version, but that is mostly internal and not necessarily exposed to the user
14:03:10 <planetmaker> no-one can say from just looking at those two names. Put both into your NewGRF dir (unzip them there) and start OpenTTD
14:03:21 <planetmaker> With all settings set to default it won#t show the older one
14:04:09 <planetmaker> yes, those are the versions displayed to users. They can be chosen arbitrarily
14:04:26 <planetmaker> basically that's the 'name' given to a version
14:04:38 <Garfield222> that is exacly what I do not want to do. I takes too much time to start openttd. I would like to desice which files is newer just by looking at file name.
14:05:06 <planetmaker> there's no other way except browsing Nutrack's repository and looking there
14:06:19 <Garfield222> it is just a proposal.
14:06:31 <Garfield222> thanks for answering
14:07:39 <andythenorth> some of us use something like semver
14:07:43 <andythenorth> major.minor.trivial
14:07:49 <planetmaker> Garfield222, those two versions somewhat compare apples and oranges. 1.1.2 is a released version. While r234 is a development one :) (and r234 is newer than 1.1.2)
14:10:38 <Garfield222> that means to bee alsolutely sure that r234 is newer than 1.1.2, I have to use same algorith, that openttd uses. Compare some ID's inside newgrf file ?
14:11:29 <planetmaker> that ID is also set by the author ;)
14:12:33 <planetmaker> but yes. Or simply learn, that there's tags (release builds) which follow the major.minor.bugfix versioning scheme and development versions which often only use a sequential numbering
14:13:01 <planetmaker> hard to decide then how that matches with the releases, but well. Every author can decide themselves how they do versioning
14:13:20 <planetmaker> In the end it's not OpenTTD, but every NewGRF author individually
14:13:39 <planetmaker> But doing so, they follow OpenTTD's versioning scheme actually
14:14:07 <Garfield222> and how openttd sorts out old newgrf files?
14:14:12 <planetmaker> with sequential builds derived from trunk. And releases in the form of major.minor.bugfix
14:15:27 <planetmaker> reading the NewGRFs internal version, which is numerical only. Trusting that the author always increases it with each commit or release
14:19:52 <planetmaker> Garfield222, anyway, if your intention is to 'cleanup the NewGRF dir', think again. You have those two versions for a reason. And an existing savegame very likely needs that *exact* version of the NewGRF
14:20:41 <planetmaker> Thus in case of doubt, you might end up with savegames where you have NewGRFs which are hard to find, if you didn't get their particular NewGRFs versions from the ingame content download
14:20:52 <Garfield222> the problem is that thera are more than two version :-)
14:21:14 <planetmaker> that's not a problem either...
14:21:29 <planetmaker> the same applies for any number really :)
14:22:40 <planetmaker> 1,2G ./content_download/newgrf
14:22:47 <Garfield222> more difficult sample: FISH_2-2.0.0.tar.gz FISH_2-2.0.2.tar.gz FISH_2-alpha.tar.gz FISH_2-squidalpha1.tar.gz FISH_2-squidalpha3.tar.gz FISH_2-squidalpha5.tar.gz FISH_2-squidrc8.tar.gz
14:22:47 <Garfield222> FISH_2-2.0.1.tar.gz FISH_2-FISH2Alpha3.tar.gz FISH_2-alpha4.tar.gz FISH_2-squidalpha2.tar.gz FISH_2-squidalpha4.tar.gz FISH_2-squidrc7.tar.gz FISH_2-squidrc9.tar.gz
14:22:58 <planetmaker> is possibly quite a lot, but so what?
14:23:18 <Garfield222> I woule keep only 2.0.2
14:23:31 <Garfield222> but I am not sure, without starting openttd and testing :-)
14:23:53 <Garfield222> yes, probably age is one of the solutions.
14:24:53 <Garfield222> about version ID inside newgrf. Is action 14, "INFO" -> "VRSN" the right location to check version ?
14:29:43 <planetmaker> if it doesn't exist, it is interpreted as 0
14:30:22 <andythenorth> dunno what to do about alphas
14:30:25 <andythenorth> they’re not releases
14:30:32 <andythenorth> I can’t give them a released version number
14:30:53 <andythenorth> it dilutes the value of releases
14:31:28 <andythenorth> I would delete all alphas :P
14:31:38 <andythenorth> and get them from bananas again if needed :P
14:34:02 <Garfield222> that could be a problem. I never know maybe some old gamesave need those alphas. It happens sometimes that gamesave need not release version 1.2.3 , but a developement version r432.
14:35:10 <andythenorth> in that case you have to keep them all :)
14:35:10 <Garfield222> Another question. are there maybe some python library to read GRF versions or compare newgrf files.
14:35:37 <Garfield222> no space left on disk :-)
14:36:24 <Garfield222> I could dig inside action 14 and write some script, but I am a bit to laisy.
14:36:24 <andythenorth> you have YETI, or Pineapple?
14:36:43 <andythenorth> sort your newgrf folder by size :P
14:37:00 <andythenorth> 32bpp EZ grfs are acres bigger than most 8bpp grfs
14:37:51 <Garfield222> zBase-* takes some space
14:38:10 <andythenorth> by contrast, Squid Ate FISH is about 1.3MB
14:38:22 <andythenorth> how big is your disk? o_O
14:39:03 <Garfield222> I was joking about disk space. I just what to clean up a bit. But I am afraid to delete "possibly" necessary newgrf files
14:39:23 <andythenorth> occasionally I just delete all
14:39:25 <andythenorth> and get them again
14:39:36 <andythenorth> the ‘scanning newgrfs’ gets slow on game start
14:41:54 <Garfield222> but seriuosly. Are the maybe some library or command line tool get newgrf version (like openttd does) it order to be able to compare
14:43:56 <andythenorth> not that I know of
14:44:13 <andythenorth> there are various ways to decompile that you could exploit
14:44:17 <andythenorth> grfcodec with -d
14:44:29 <andythenorth> or grf2html, but that _might_ be dead
14:45:17 <andythenorth> this fly is annoying
14:45:28 <andythenorth> I wish it would fuck right off :)
14:47:36 <planetmaker> Garfield222, seriously, the only maintained library is OpenTTD itself
14:48:47 <andythenorth> planetmaker: have _you_ played any openttd recently? o_O
14:58:10 * andythenorth is curious who’s playing
14:58:13 <planetmaker> not very much really
15:00:41 <planetmaker> I blame my girl friend ;)
15:01:20 <andythenorth> openttd is not compatible with relationships :P
15:01:27 <andythenorth> it is mostly for single people :P
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16:59:37 <andythenorth> Terkhen: played any OpenTTD? o_O
17:00:54 <V453000> wtf is this poll again andy :D
17:01:35 * andythenorth is curious how dead OpenTTD really is
17:02:10 <andythenorth> yeah I think it is
17:02:15 <andythenorth> actually finally dead
17:02:28 <andythenorth> as a programming project
17:05:11 <Terkhen> andythenorth: not really :P
17:05:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think your narrow field of view makes this observation universal
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17:06:25 <andythenorth> narrow field of view = forums, irc channel, version control
17:06:33 <andythenorth> what secret place do I miss? o_O
17:07:49 <V453000> openttdcoop, reddit, competitive servers
17:08:00 <andythenorth> nah, who’s writing game code there?
17:08:20 <andythenorth> someone has github or something with All The Ponies?
17:08:27 <V453000> people seem to play more and more from what I see
17:08:35 <andythenorth> play != programming
17:08:41 <V453000> more players should eventually turn into more developers I believe
17:08:45 <andythenorth> playing is fine, the game is fun
17:08:50 <andythenorth> but eh, it’s dead for development
17:08:53 <V453000> I actually played the game at some point too
17:08:54 <andythenorth> we should have a part
17:09:36 <andythenorth> frosch is the only person left committing
17:09:37 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just that you visit all these places doesn't mean you see everything that is going on
17:09:53 <andythenorth> tree, falling, forest
17:10:00 <andythenorth> if it doesn’t get committed, it’s irrelevant :P
17:10:13 <planetmaker> we should dev-ify afd88. Then we got two active committers again ;)
17:10:26 <andythenorth> translators are going strong
17:11:38 <andythenorth> put a banner on it, have a party :)
17:13:07 <planetmaker> banner... maybe. party... sure. mature... probably
17:13:20 <planetmaker> finished... no. done... no ;)
17:14:24 <andythenorth> what’s left beyond bug fixes?
17:14:28 <andythenorth> and maintaining the compile
17:15:17 <Alberth> probably something group-ish
17:16:02 <V453000> button for blitter swapping
17:16:27 <V453000> sensible tutorial, not just a GS
17:16:43 <Eddi|zuHause> infrastructure sharing (including solving the transfer issue)
17:17:19 <Alberth> I think we pretty much reached 2.0 by then :p
17:17:45 <planetmaker> extended default game components (default newgrfs?)
17:17:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think there is ever going to be a 2.0
17:18:05 <andythenorth> ‘what is v2’ is a thorny question :)
17:18:09 <Eddi|zuHause> then there's 1.10 :p
17:18:09 <V453000> on a serious note, what do you guys think about some blitter button in the game? I feel it is kind of important
17:18:27 <andythenorth> I work on about 6 different projects where ‘v2?’ is a question :P
17:18:30 <planetmaker> V453000, yes, handy. wanted. and a detail ;)
17:18:41 <V453000> it is a huge deal for players
17:18:46 <V453000> nobody wants to mess with cfg all the time
17:18:54 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: can't be more than 10 LOC
17:18:54 <V453000> and new players demand 32bpp a lot
17:19:12 <Alberth> I mean you set it once, and you're done, right?
17:19:19 <V453000> most people have no idea how 32bpp / 8bpp is handled
17:19:25 <V453000> Alberth: no, often you want to swap
17:19:33 <andythenorth> why is it an interesting choice?
17:19:36 <Eddi|zuHause> 32bpp is enabled automatically when you load a 32bpp grf
17:19:55 <andythenorth> I had picked up some FUD that 8bpp blitter was dead
17:20:03 <andythenorth> all my blitters are slightly dead tbh :
17:20:08 <V453000> sure but when 32bpp demolishes your cpu, or you want them to be more coherent, 8bpp is win
17:20:24 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you have a perception bias against death, apparently
17:20:33 <andythenorth> for some OS / hardware combos, isn’t 32bpp more performant?
17:20:53 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: only for weird ones
17:20:57 <V453000> idk try loading yeti with a lot of animations :)
17:21:08 <planetmaker> actually both, windows and osx have 32bpp blitter as default
17:21:32 <planetmaker> it's hardware which plays the bad tricks
17:21:34 <andythenorth> full animation is borked with both 8bpp and 32bpp
17:21:44 <andythenorth> black screen regions
17:21:46 <Alberth> the real step is going to switch to using a gpu, but that's very complicated afaik
17:22:10 <V453000> the choice we get with various blitters is great and quite powerful tool, I know many users on our welcome server even (newer players) swap to 8bpp often due to performance, or just to make 32bpp newgrfs look more like their 8bpp base set, etc
17:22:10 <Eddi|zuHause> use shaders for palette animation and stuff
17:22:12 <planetmaker> like an opengl blitter or stuff
17:22:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't have a clue how to even start with that
17:22:43 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, start with deprecating palette animation
17:23:05 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: why?
17:23:47 <planetmaker> in order to outsource to GPU :P Palette and 32bpp doesn't work too well anyway
17:24:15 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: if you want the easy way out, pre-process all sprites with all the palette states, and then flip the cached sprites all the time
17:24:30 <planetmaker> something like that, for instance, yes
17:24:48 <planetmaker> memory is cheaper than cpu power :)
17:25:32 * andythenorth misses the waves
17:25:36 <andythenorth> the waves the waves the waves
17:25:48 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it might cause combinatory explosion if the sprite uses multiple cycles with non-matching cycle lengths
17:26:15 * andythenorth wonders if we should play the game a bit :P
17:26:42 <Eddi|zuHause> lcm(cycle1,cycle2)
17:27:27 <Eddi|zuHause> also, you have to check which magic colour cycles are actually used
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17:29:07 <andythenorth> the last game I played, the only thing I would have changed is Busy Bee
17:29:16 <andythenorth> and that is within even my capabilities :P
17:30:07 <andythenorth> there are tons of minor annoyances, but very few that are worth adding Ever More Code for
17:31:39 <Eddi|zuHause> 24h clock, timetable visualisation, ...
17:32:23 <Eddi|zuHause> (24h clock has nothing to do with daylength, btw.)
17:48:27 <openbu> Why not add the army to zbase ,Such as tank.
17:48:59 * andythenorth considers a ‘trench’ industry
17:49:06 <andythenorth> accepts: conscripts
17:49:11 <andythenorth> produces: corpses
17:50:37 <andythenorth> pretty horrible :P
17:50:47 * andythenorth was reading the other day about WW1 railroad logistics
17:50:54 <planetmaker> totally politically correct and family friendly
17:50:57 <andythenorth> it’s obvious that moving troops and amunition was required
17:51:10 <andythenorth> but less commonly mentioned was the traffic the other way, in stacked corpses
17:51:17 <andythenorth> then I stopped reading
17:51:30 <andythenorth> because I’m 37, and I’ve been reading about horrible things for at least 20 years
17:51:33 <andythenorth> and I’ve had enough of it
17:51:37 <planetmaker> openbu, make a NewGRF, if you really need that.
17:51:59 <Alberth> or find a proper war game
17:53:49 <planetmaker> hm... a friend of mine is just reading through "Kaigun: Strategy, Tactics and Technology in the Imperial Japanese Navy, 1887-1941" Sounded to me similarily appealing
17:54:29 <andythenorth> there’s only so much mass slaughter that you need to understand
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17:59:37 <openbu> ok,the newgrf of red alert 2 is coming ,
18:00:05 <Alberth> you know you cannot distribute copyrighted graphics, right?
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18:02:10 <andythenorth> minor annoyances
18:02:26 <Alberth> people think war is fun?
18:02:49 <andythenorth> actually I’ve read some accounts of people who’ve been in wars, some people find it incredibly exciting
18:03:17 <Alberth> I can imagine, but it seems kind of deadly to me
18:03:18 <andythenorth> not everyone, but some people definitely, including people who might consider themselves cowards in ordinary life
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18:04:03 <andythenorth> if you’re a nervous person, a *real* risk of death might be more mentally manageable than other less likely risks
18:04:43 <andythenorth> e.g. I used to find rock climbing reset my sense of risk
18:04:55 <andythenorth> oops, not talking about trains :(
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18:05:23 <Alberth> you didn't go to the rock by train? :)
18:16:54 <Dax> hello, could anyone help me ? I wanted to ask if there is a way to change the game's default town names
18:17:33 <Dax> i am referring to the town names that are listed under the game options such as france, italy, etc
18:18:43 <planetmaker> Dax, yes, add a townname newgrf in the newgrf settings. Then its townnames shop up as an additional option in the townname dialogue
18:19:03 <Dax> hey thanks, indeed I already seen that there was that options
18:19:19 <Dax> I was just wondering if I could instead edit those who are already in the game
18:19:33 <planetmaker> yes. But not without re-compiling the game
18:19:42 <Dax> then that's not an option I guess...
18:19:52 <Dax> it's just that at first glance they look all made up names :(
18:19:58 <planetmaker> they probably are
18:20:03 <Dax> and there is no newgrf for italian town names that I've found
18:20:15 <planetmaker> but thus: use a townname newgrf. If there's none, make one. It's very easy
18:20:24 <Dax> is there a tutorial anywhere?
18:20:31 <Dax> hope it's just notepad stuff :p
18:20:49 <Alberth> you don't need one, it's trivial once you look at the source of an existing one
18:21:12 <Dax> I can just open them with notepad right?
18:21:17 <Dax> to check how they're made
18:22:24 <planetmaker> you cannot exactly open an existing NewGRF; they're binary data
18:22:48 <Dax> that they are not formatted "notepad like"
18:23:00 <planetmaker> yes, but notepad and that compiler suffice :)
18:23:05 <Dax> if possible, I would happily send the file to you later if you want to add it
18:23:10 <Dax> since it seems that nobody did italian towns...
18:23:49 <planetmaker> register with openttd services, upload your result to the content manager. No intervention by anyone else needed. You can do it all :)
18:23:52 <Alberth> wordpad is better at handling unix files, just be sure to save in plain text
18:24:08 <Dax> uh-oh I just opened your getting started link and welp
18:24:14 <Dax> I know nothing of phyton or programming
18:24:22 <Dax> let's see if I can understand something lol
18:24:44 <Alberth> you mostly need the install instructions
18:25:26 <Dax> unfortunately I don't understand...
18:25:45 <Dax> I guess I have to get the compiler from here?
18:26:20 <Dax> ok i guess I have to take nml-v5655-windows-win32.zip
18:26:25 <planetmaker> yes. Download the one which suits your OS (the file names should give it away)
18:27:30 <Alberth> planetmaker: CB_RESULT_IND_PROD_DECREMENT_BY_1 | 1 << 8 works w.r.t. operator priorities?
18:28:05 <Dax> urgh I guess it's going to be too complicated for me :/
18:28:18 <Dax> i downloaded that by the only .exe files in there open and closes itself
18:28:27 <Dax> also I don't know a thing about phyton commands :(
18:29:26 <Alberth> it's not a graphical program
18:29:41 <Alberth> open a DOS shell (command program)
18:30:15 <Dax> but I'm still a little lost at everything
18:30:24 <Dax> I mean, where am I supposed to write the town names now? :(
18:30:50 <Dax> I really thought this thing was much easier at the beginning XD
18:30:52 <Alberth> in a .nml file, have seen an example of those?
18:31:22 <Dax> no, my bad, I had opened only some .grf files
18:31:29 <Dax> where can I find an nml one?
18:33:15 <Dax> hmm I'm still very much confused
18:33:23 <Dax> now I know what's the formatting like
18:33:29 <Dax> but I don't understand where I can write these commands...
18:34:04 <Dax> I can download this and edit it, right? :p
18:34:53 <Alberth> text("Horsthoek", 1), <-- this is a town name, and a chance of appearance (bigger number = more likely)
18:35:22 <Dax> yeah I am checking with the previous NML:Town_names thing thanks :)
18:35:28 <Dax> so I'm missing just a piece of the puzzle now
18:35:46 <Dax> I guess I should use nmlc.exe to somehow convert the nml file into grf
18:35:57 <Dax> where can I find the proper dos commands to do so?
18:37:12 <Dax> also, sorry, there's this part which I'm not sure what it does\means
18:37:12 <Dax> name : string(STR_GRF_NAME);
18:37:12 <Dax> desc : string(STR_GRF_DESCRIPTION);
18:37:13 <Dax> url : string(STR_GRF_URL);
18:37:15 <Dax> min_compatible_version : 2;
18:37:27 <Dax> should I just leave it as it is?
18:37:52 <Alberth> it's the identification of the grf, grfid should be unique
18:38:36 <Dax> not sure about these 'versions'
18:39:05 <openbu> visual nml 4.1.the NewGRF IDE.
18:39:09 <Alberth> just increment both whenever you make a new grf
18:39:20 <Alberth> (with changed set of names)
18:39:48 <Dax> I opened your last link but I'm slightly confused
18:39:57 <Dax> name : string(STR_GRF_NAME);
18:40:04 <Dax> STR_GRF_NAME :Dutch Town Names
18:40:12 <Dax> which is a different formatting..
18:40:23 <Alberth> STR_GRF_NAME is the name of a string (a piece of text)
18:40:45 <Alberth> "Dutch Town Names" (without : ) is the content of the string in English
18:41:02 <Dax> that's clear, it's just the formatting that's different
18:41:06 <Alberth> you can have other languages too
18:41:26 <Alberth> yeah, it's a different file format with different history :)
18:41:56 <Dax> name : Italian Town Names(STR_GRF_NAME);
18:41:56 <Dax> desc : Italian Town Names(STR_GRF_DESCRIPTION);
18:42:08 <Dax> or I shouldn't have changed "string" into the actual name? :x
18:42:52 <Alberth> no, it should stay string(STR_....); :)
18:43:22 <Alberth> you should make a folder with the townname.nml file, and a "lang" folder
18:43:45 <Alberth> and inside the "lang" folder an english.lng file like above
18:44:04 <Dax> oh, really? even if then it's just a single grf file?
18:44:11 <Dax> it's starting to get too complicated I fear :(
18:44:28 <Alberth> nml packs it all into a single grf, no worries :)
18:44:57 <Dax> ok let's try to not give up immediately then I guess
18:44:58 <Alberth> townnames are a bit very tiny, so nml is a bit overkill for it
18:45:16 <Dax> what's confusing me a lot
18:45:22 <Dax> is that that english.lng file
18:45:25 <planetmaker> you need the nml file which defines the grf and what it does. And a language file which defines the strings the grf uses
18:45:37 <Dax> STR_GRF_NAME :Dutch Town Names
18:45:37 <Dax> STR_GRF_DESCRIPTION :Dutch Town Names (Hyronymus, 2012)
18:45:37 <Dax> STR_GAME_OPTIONS_TOWN_NAME_DUTCH :Dutch
18:45:47 <Dax> this stuff is Also in the Nlm file that I have
18:46:00 <planetmaker> STR_GRF_NAME is a name for a string. And that name can be used in the nml file
18:46:09 <Dax> name : string(STR_Italian_Town_Names);
18:46:26 <Alberth> you should not change the "string" lines
18:46:26 <planetmaker> like name: string(STR_GRF_NAME)
18:46:41 <Dax> so I should've left it as it was okay
18:46:48 <Alberth> nml takes the text from the .lng files, and fills it in for you
18:47:24 <Dax> so in the nlm file i should just leave
18:47:26 <Dax> name : string(STR_GRF_NAME);
18:47:26 <Dax> desc : string(STR_GRF_DESCRIPTION);
18:47:26 <Dax> url : string(STR_GRF_URL);
18:47:27 <Dax> min_compatible_version : 1;
18:47:33 <Dax> only the grfid nees to be set, I guess
18:47:47 <Dax> and then I edit that english.lng file
18:47:53 <Alberth> and if you make an italian.lng, that gets added too , and you can select italian language in openttd, and the newgrf speaks italian too
18:48:13 <Dax> yeah that's actually important
18:48:18 <Dax> since I'm using the game in italian
18:48:34 <planetmaker> for townname NewGRFs there's little point in adding translations, though
18:48:40 <planetmaker> except maybe for the description
18:48:51 <Dax> let's just leave the description in english honestly
18:48:53 <planetmaker> a townname is a townname is a townname, no?
18:49:21 <Eddi|zuHause> translateable town names could be fun :p
18:49:48 <Dax> ok so I have the nlm file and I create a lang folder, was there anything else?
18:50:00 <planetmaker> yeah... Aix-aux-chapelle. or however it's called in French. No resemblance to Aachen ;)
18:50:52 <Alberth> copy the engish.lng into the lang folder
18:51:09 <Dax> STR_GAME_OPTIONS_TOWN_NAME_DUTCH :Dutch -> what about this line ?
18:51:20 <Alberth> if you want to make an italian version, copy english.lng to italian.lng
18:51:30 <Alberth> just change the text behind the :
18:51:43 <planetmaker> and the grflangid in the header
18:51:54 <Dax> ##grflangid 00 should be changed into what?
18:52:06 <Alberth> ##grflangid 27 for italian.lng
18:52:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Dax: that line is what is written in the "town name" selection drop down in the main menu
18:52:11 <planetmaker> for english.lng: not at all.
18:52:31 <Dax> i don't care about an italian.lng file really
18:52:37 <Dax> let's just keep it simple please
18:53:11 <Alberth> it's the number identifying which language it is, and 00 is UK english
18:53:25 <Dax> in the last string hough you said to change just after the :
18:53:29 <Dax> however this would lead to
18:53:31 <Dax> STR_GAME_OPTIONS_TOWN_NAME_DUTCH :Italian
18:53:45 <Dax> I don't understand what this line is doing
18:53:56 <Dax> should I just replace dutch with italian ?
18:54:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Dax: the part on the right of the ":" is what is displayed in the game, the part on the left is what is used in the NML file to reference the string
18:54:58 <Alberth> you can but the STR names in the .nml and the .lng must be identical
18:55:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Dax: the part on the left is only important for you as the developer, it can be named anything you feel comfortable with
18:56:02 <Dax> styles: string(STR_GAME_OPTIONS_TOWN_NAME_DUTCH);
18:56:16 <Dax> i'll just change dutch to italian there, but i get what you're saying
18:56:24 <planetmaker> that's probably a part you don't want to worry about right now
18:56:38 <Dax> no it's just to make sure it matches
18:56:42 <Alberth> then also change it in the .lng file, the STR names must stay the same
18:56:42 <planetmaker> seems that the dutch grf offers two options, dutch writing and english writing.
18:56:59 <planetmaker> or is it really just the name? /me checks
18:57:44 <Dax> back to the nlm file, now it's like this
18:57:47 <Dax> name : string(STR_GRF_NAME);
18:57:47 <Dax> desc : string(STR_GRF_DESCRIPTION);
18:57:47 <Dax> url : string(STR_GRF_URL);
18:57:49 <Dax> min_compatible_version : 1;
18:57:53 <Dax> styles: string(STR_GAME_OPTIONS_TOWN_NAME_ITA);
18:58:12 <Dax> not sure what's "A" after town_names or if it matters and it's everything all right :p
18:58:21 <planetmaker> ah, it's a style... so yes, you want to change it indee
18:59:21 <Alberth> compiling is nmlc --grf=ita_townnames.grf ita_townnames.nml
18:59:21 <Dax> so everything is correct so far right?
18:59:41 <Dax> just another little question
18:59:44 <Alberth> where "ita_townnames" is probably something else :)
18:59:51 <Dax> the towns here are named by alphabet
18:59:57 <Dax> but I don't need to care about that I hope
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19:00:15 <Alberth> order is not important
19:00:47 <Alberth> it's the chance of appearance
19:00:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Dax: that makes "Zwolle" 32 times more likely to appear than "Aaan Reijans"
19:01:00 <Alberth> Zwolle has 32 times more chance of being chosen
19:01:08 <Dax> that's a really cool feature
19:01:24 <Dax> all right so time to write
19:01:25 <Eddi|zuHause> most likely this is done for lager towns that are more recognizable
19:01:48 <Dax> i don't need to care right?
19:02:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Dax: that A will probably be referenced somewhere further down
19:02:48 <Dax> there's literally only the town names
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19:03:41 <Alberth> seems safe to just keep it
19:03:53 <Eddi|zuHause> the specs will probably tell what it is supposed to mean
19:04:43 <Alberth> but you can use it to concatenate parts
19:05:12 <andythenorth> so how about v2? :P
19:05:27 <andythenorth> cos that never kills a software project :D
19:06:10 <Dax> so it's just to name "blocks"
19:06:26 <Dax> i'll just don't care anyway
19:06:59 <Alberth> it's useful if you have some common suffixes or prefixes, and you want {random prefix}{random middle}{random suffix} names
19:07:13 <Alberth> like the default townnames do
19:07:18 <Dax> only thing that concerns me a little
19:07:28 <Dax> however, it's not formatted like that in my file
19:07:53 <Alberth> the [] means "the text inside is optional"
19:09:53 <Dax> is any number fine, for the "chances to appear" numbers?
19:10:01 <Dax> i mean, they're not multiple of 2 or anything like that?
19:10:16 <Alberth> mostly any number is fine
19:10:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Dax: i think in each block the numbers should add up to 256
19:10:49 <planetmaker> numbers in a block must add up to a number < 256
19:11:07 <Dax> oh okay, that's important then
19:11:59 <Alberth> numbers are relative A:1 B:2 B has twice as large chance
19:12:15 <Alberth> A:2 B:4 B also has twice as large chance
19:13:03 <planetmaker> hm... not sure. But one block may not have more than 255 entries :)
19:13:17 <Alberth> planetmaker: it does??
19:13:20 <planetmaker> you need more blocks, if you want to define more town names. Yes
19:13:33 <Alberth> nml is pretty smart in splitting blocks you know :p
19:13:57 <planetmaker> but I think you last re-vamped that part... so is it a documentation rot?
19:13:58 <Alberth> yeah, but nml isn't grfcodec :p
19:14:06 <planetmaker> that's nml docs :P
19:14:24 <Eddi|zuHause> "If a part contains even more entries, NML tries to make it fit by creating sub-blocks. "
19:14:34 <Eddi|zuHause> so i suppose that overrides the 256 limit
19:14:54 <planetmaker> hm... so ... documentation rot
19:15:07 <Dax> I have deleted the old file but I would have been surprised if it was less than 256 names tho
19:15:29 <Alberth> in my mind, you can pretty much do anything within reason
19:15:29 <Dax> and since every one of them is '1'
19:15:56 <Alberth> but it's a long time ago that I wrote that code :)
19:16:08 <Dax> i will still keep most towns at 1 and whatever
19:16:09 <planetmaker> well... that block has 4k+ entries
19:16:13 <planetmaker> so... will be safe :)
19:16:44 <Alberth> until you hit the random number size limit of 32 bit :p
19:24:50 <Dax> all right i'm done, i will add more of them maybe (did around 200) but for now i'll test
19:26:26 <Eddi|zuHause> a huge map with lots of towns may easily reach 3000 towns that need a unique name :p
19:27:10 <Eddi|zuHause> you should test compile, though
19:27:11 <Dax> I won't upload the file for now, just doing a test on local
19:28:21 <Dax> however I have only a grf file
19:28:26 <Dax> do I need to create a .tar ?
19:28:38 <Dax> so i just put that in the documents
19:29:08 <Eddi|zuHause> .tar is just an archive, openttd treats that like a directory, and looks for the .grf file inside
19:29:09 <planetmaker> Documents/OpenTTD/newgrf
19:29:09 <Dax> hmm no there's a newgrf folder tho
19:29:27 <planetmaker> that's for things manually downloaded or created yourself
19:29:48 <planetmaker> content_download is better not touched. That's for OpenTTD's usage when using ingame content download
19:30:00 <Dax> all right, appearing in the game
19:30:35 <Dax> what happens if it finishes the names? does it go back to what's set in the game options, or just repeats those in the grf?
19:30:57 <planetmaker> neither. you don't get more towns
19:31:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Dax: it'll generate 300 towns, then try 1700 more which it can't find new names for, which takes ages and doesn't put the towns down
19:32:14 <Dax> not sure why but it's not working...
19:32:23 <Dax> but it made a map with the old names :(
19:32:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Dax: you need to select the town name in the settings
19:32:49 <Eddi|zuHause> just adding the grf is not enough
19:33:24 <Dax> you're talking about the game options window?
19:34:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Dax: it should be at the very bottom of the list
19:34:41 <Dax> could it be because i did not create a italian.lang ?
19:35:11 <Eddi|zuHause> then something failed
19:35:24 <Dax> yeah but there's something that's puzzling me
19:35:46 <Dax> i see austrian, french etc
19:35:57 <Dax> but... what word would appear for my gfx file?
19:36:08 <Dax> because i don't remember setting any kind of word to appear in this menu
19:36:13 <Dax> so i'm not sure where it should take it from
19:36:33 <Eddi|zuHause> styles: string(STR_GAME_OPTIONS_TOWN_NAME_ITA); <-- this one
19:37:08 <Dax> then I suspect there might be a conflict
19:37:18 <Dax> because I had named it Italian just like the default one
19:37:29 <Dax> well let's try to change it
19:37:34 <Eddi|zuHause> that would only mean that there will be two "Italian"s
19:37:52 <Dax> then I don't know what's wrong
19:38:02 <Dax> I guess i will take out that (A) thing maybe just to be sure ?
19:38:20 <Dax> also when i compiled i never told him to search for the lang folder
19:38:26 <Dax> did it really do it by himself?
19:39:19 <Eddi|zuHause> it has a default path for that
19:39:56 <Dax> well I don't know what's wrong here :/
19:40:18 <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably not that :p
19:40:47 <Eddi|zuHause> can you pastebin your file?
19:48:35 <andythenorth> annoyances noticed in my last game: consist management (change the formation of all trains in a group at once); pointless difference between drive-in/drive-thru stops (drive-in are always worse); RV overtaking; can’t build docks on rivers easily; locks are 3 tiles to ‘add difficulty’ but it’s boring; can’t build station tiles on corner slopes (can be mitigated by copying station set tiles to object set); trains
19:48:35 <andythenorth> significantly better (more ‘done’) than all other transport types
19:48:56 <andythenorth> but eh, this is not new
19:49:09 <andythenorth> and they’re all minor
19:50:03 <andythenorth> the performance issues are quite bad too, and they were even worse in a Windows VM :P
19:50:21 <andythenorth> but andythenorth uses an esoteric hardware & OS
19:52:08 <andythenorth> also road-building is tedious, don’t know why, but auto-road is much worse than auto-rail
19:52:56 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a guy here that wanted to make tile highlighting for autoroad. what became out of that?
19:54:07 <Dax> does the grfid need to be referenced somewhere?
19:54:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Dax: no, it should just be different from everybody else's IDs
19:55:30 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: yes, but i meant last week or so :p
19:55:52 <Dax> at the end, there is also the content of the lang file
19:57:02 <Alberth> the autoroad guy Eddi talked about :)
19:57:22 <Dax> also i made a mistake in the pastebin
19:57:48 <Dax> but it was only a copy paste mistake
19:57:59 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you put the lang file not at the end but inbetween
20:00:53 <Dax> i noticed that in the compiler it says
20:01:08 <Dax> nmlc info: town names: 1/128
20:01:21 <frosch123> yes, you only defined "italian" townnames
20:01:46 <Dax> then what's wrong ;_; sigh
20:01:50 <frosch123> if you would define "northern italian", "southern italian", "ancient roman", you would have 3
20:02:07 <frosch123> Dax: nothing, it's the amount of sets you can choose in the game options
20:02:28 <Dax> then why it's not working in the game to me :/
20:02:35 <Dax> it's not appearing in my game options
20:03:08 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it did not activate properly?
20:03:23 <Dax> i tried activating it and closing and reopening...
20:04:55 <Dax> but did not press "apply"
20:05:20 <Dax> then i'll add cities an upload it...
20:13:22 * andythenorth wonders how to get a patch from github
20:13:29 <andythenorth> must be a ‘raw’ diff somewhere
20:13:47 <frosch123> you need to add ".diff" or ".patch" to the url
20:15:45 <andythenorth> Linter failure on sprite 4252.
20:17:34 <frosch123> make a patch to remove nforenum from ottd :)
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20:26:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: basically anything that adds to openttd.grf also needs a patch to nforenum
20:27:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the real problem is that nforenum treats "i don't know about this bit" as "THIS IS CRITICAL ERROR! HALT!"
20:28:11 <Eddi|zuHause> and the makefile exaggerates this even further
20:29:11 <Eddi|zuHause> you could just change the makefile to ignore renum errors, but that may be not desireable also, depending on the seriousness of the error
20:29:19 <frosch123> the real problem is that all that nforenum does on openttd.grf is setting the number of sprites at the beginning
20:29:47 <andythenorth> impedance mismatch :)
20:30:09 <andythenorth> this is why there are only about 7 people in the world who can add actual features to openttd :)
20:35:15 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, things like this stopped me from pursuing a project multiple times already
20:35:56 <andythenorth> if we removed them, you’d have to find other reasons :)
20:36:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i'm a hopeless case anyway :p
20:36:54 <Eddi|zuHause> try helping the me from 3 years ago :p
20:40:07 <Eddi|zuHause> no. i write code generators for that :p
20:41:03 <andythenorth> I think that is yak-shaving :P
20:41:54 <andythenorth> so how about ignore all the silly little annoyances, and go for something big?
20:42:14 <andythenorth> add a new transport type (packets) and rework roads AND water
20:42:23 <andythenorth> that would be a nice v2
20:42:27 <andythenorth> and it’s a hard problem
20:42:59 <andythenorth> introducing lots of nice new bugs, UI, spec and game balance issues
20:42:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: sure. but that inevitably gets to a point to add sprites, which brings us to the exact location where it failed the last time
20:43:42 <andythenorth> it is essential that openttd.grf is compiled with openttd though?
20:43:58 <planetmaker> frosch123, so, numbering all sprites explicitly in openttd.grf would do the trick... would we really want that?
20:44:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, and if you don't have grfcodec installed it will just skip it
20:44:45 <frosch123> iirc grfcodec prints a warning, so it would even get noticed
20:45:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it will just use the previously compiled .grf
20:45:28 <andythenorth> but if the previously compiled grf misses the sprites...
20:45:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: this piece is only there for religious zealots who want EVERYTHING to be compiled from source
20:46:01 <andythenorth> we respect them highly though no?
20:46:06 <andythenorth> because they submit lots of useful patches?
20:46:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you can fairly easily compile the grf manually
20:46:30 <andythenorth> and we wouldn’t get packaged on major distros if you couldn’t 100% build from source?
20:46:43 <andythenorth> cos nobody ever uses pre-build game art packages or anything
20:47:33 <michi_cc> Debian insists. And half the other distros take from Debian.
20:48:41 * andythenorth tries to make a counter argument, fails to find any
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20:49:47 <andythenorth> hmm, the most fun thing about my last game was the requirement to totally change my play style
20:50:07 <andythenorth> to suit cdist behaviour at secondary industries with multiple destinations
20:50:19 <andythenorth> new rules => new game, ish
20:51:50 <andythenorth> the amusing fallacy in that
20:52:20 <andythenorth> is that my ‘new rules’ essentially neutralise cdist, by providing one station for every source-destination pair
20:52:38 <andythenorth> and never connecting any links for secondary cargo
20:53:11 <andythenorth> so there are many linkgraphs composed of single directed links
20:55:46 <Alberth> hmm, 290 tonnes of wood from a forest in 1934 :)
20:56:13 <andythenorth> deliver supplies :P
20:56:36 <Eddi|zuHause> wood cutting supplies?
20:57:24 <andythenorth> ‘industry occasionally plants trees'
20:57:32 <Eddi|zuHause> [in wrong order, probably]
20:57:59 <andythenorth> can we set a ‘sustainable forestry bit’ for ‘industry cuts trees’?
20:58:09 <andythenorth> ‘industry plants one tree for every tree cut'
20:58:31 <andythenorth> ‘deliver supplies regularly and industry will plant more trees’
20:58:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's what the temperate forest is supposed to represent, right?
20:58:39 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yes :)
20:58:43 * andythenorth is just dicking around
21:01:15 <Dax> i forgot how I can upload it though on the community...
21:01:18 <Dax> i need to register to the forum ?
21:01:46 <Supercheese> you need to register with Bananas at least
21:05:42 <Eddi|zuHause> if you want feedback from users, a forum post probably helps ;)
21:07:27 <frosch123> unless you want useful feedback :p
21:10:34 <andythenorth> you can’t predict in advance :)
21:10:39 <andythenorth> well, you can statistically :P
21:11:08 <andythenorth> sometimes forums are valuable
21:15:42 <andythenorth> sometimes the value of forum comments is inestimable :P
21:19:28 <Dax> well honestly I don't know what feedback I could expect on a bunch of city names :p
21:20:15 <Dax> hmm I'm logged into the Bananas
21:20:24 <Dax> but I can't see any submit content button or stuff like that
21:21:00 <Eddi|zuHause> typically a bunch of "nice" and "well done", before anyone complains that the whole thread consists only of "nice"s and "well done"s
21:23:09 <andythenorth> then a complaint about the unrealistic payment model, and a request for subways
21:23:24 <andythenorth> ‘unrealistic’ :P
21:24:15 <Supercheese> I tried to give the masses their subways
21:24:26 <Supercheese> not sure it caught on
21:25:32 * andythenorth wonders if newgrf can do distance-neutral cargo payment
21:25:35 <andythenorth> for the idiots :P
21:26:44 <Dax> just one tiny problem left
21:26:50 <Dax> i have no clue how to make .tar archives
21:26:55 <Dax> to pack it with the readme file
21:27:03 <Dax> i guess openttd won't read .zip or .rar ?
21:27:19 <Supercheese> think it reads .zip
21:27:40 <Supercheese> I upload my grf bundles as .zips
21:27:43 <frosch123> yes, a zip with readme.txt and the .grf should work
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21:32:46 <Dax> hmmm nope my openTTD doesn't see it :( it's not appearing in the newGRF options when it's zipped
21:33:35 <frosch123> well, yes, openttd does not understand it
21:33:37 <Eddi|zuHause> no, openttd won't read the zip, but bananas wil repack it into a tar with the right files
21:36:56 <Dax> it asks me for a minimum openTTD version...
21:37:08 <Dax> honestly I have no idea, I'm guessing it should be compatible with all?
21:38:22 <frosch123> nmlc compiles for >= 1.2
21:38:27 <frosch123> the .grf format changed back then
21:39:16 <Dax> oh god it wants a license and won't let me go further otherwise
21:39:44 <andythenorth> we should add wtfpl
21:39:44 <planetmaker> if you don't care
21:39:53 <frosch123> use cc-0, gpl is too much work with sources :)
21:40:28 <Alberth> Dax: not having a license means you don't want others to use and distribute it
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21:40:44 <Dax> Alberth I wrote on my readme about that
21:40:50 <Dax> but when I tried to select Custo
21:41:04 <Dax> it said that "it couldn't find a custom licence" and I don't know what it wanted
21:41:06 <planetmaker> it needs then a license.txt
21:41:16 <planetmaker> as openttd has buttons for both, readme and license
21:41:48 <planetmaker> if you ever looked at a newgrf in the newgrf selection window you could know ;)
21:42:39 <Dax> but I thought it was just people being precise
21:43:03 <Dax> at the moment it appears in black though, not sure if it's because it needs time
21:43:23 <Dax> i think it's time i go to sleep
21:43:29 <Dax> that's 'cause i didn't set any URL :p
21:43:40 <Dax> i'll try to download the .gz now
21:44:22 <Supercheese> it does take a short time before the download link appears
21:44:31 <Dax> actually no, let's try from OpenTTD
21:44:37 <Dax> no Supercheese it was me being stupid no worries
21:44:51 <planetmaker> the website download link is different from the ingame one
21:44:51 <frosch123> Supercheese: i think it is pretty instant these days
21:45:24 <frosch123> the mirror scripts took some evolution classes :)
21:45:57 <Dax> yeah planetmaker i downloaded it from openttd
21:46:07 <Dax> seems fine, just need to launch a game and i'm done
21:47:24 <Dax> thanks to all who helped :D
21:49:04 <planetmaker> now that was a pleasant surprise :) Not often a user comes, wants a grf and immediately makes it himself
21:52:42 <frosch123> there is our resident italian guy :)
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22:58:18 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: is there that much difference between the languages?
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23:31:57 <Dax> appreciate anyone who could offer help :/
23:32:56 <Dax> a simple question: will my in-game settings be resetted if i uninstall and reinstall it?
23:57:03 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. settings are stored in Documents\OpenTTD. uninstalling does not touch that
23:57:27 <Eddi|zuHause> eh. i mean no, i misread your question
23:57:48 <Eddi|zuHause> for resetting, you need to delete openttd.cfg in that same place
23:59:21 <Dax> i just wanted to have a backup of my current settings
23:59:28 <Dax> so that I could understand if it's something there indeed or not
23:59:43 <Dax> since I actually had tweaked them a lot, and if that's not where the problem is, so that I won't have to do it again :)
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