IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-07-05
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00:08:50 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have more than one random decision like this, you should make sure to read different bits, to avoid correlation
00:11:59 <Supercheese> Well, hopefully anim_control 's extra_callback_info1 random bits are re-randomized each time an animation trigger happens
00:12:36 <Supercheese> but I don't really know when the data is re-randomized, guess I can check the source
00:13:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i meant within the same callback
00:13:37 <Supercheese> ah, just one decision each time the callback is fired
00:14:18 <Eddi|zuHause> and when things are rerandomized should be in the specs
00:14:20 <Supercheese> Random() does seem to be called for each ChangeAnimationFrame() call anyway
00:16:01 <Supercheese> time to try compiling...
00:16:49 <Supercheese> success, time to test functionality...
00:20:11 <Supercheese> looking good so far...
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00:46:21 <Supercheese> great, now just gotta fix the graphics
00:49:50 <Eddi|zuHause> "great, now i just have to do the other 90% of the work"
00:51:41 <Supercheese> stupid sprite aligner, coords now multiplied by 4
01:03:42 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it's rather silly. i don't know who approved that
01:04:37 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently the boundaries for trunk inclusion are much weaker for developer features :p
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07:41:21 * andythenorth has to deliver 1500 tonnes of Iron Ore to Evilville Steel Mill
07:41:33 <Pikka> better get on with it then
07:41:44 <andythenorth> I have been playing this game since 1965 or so
07:41:54 <andythenorth> and no new vehicles since 2010
07:42:02 <andythenorth> including your AV9 things
07:42:24 <Pikka> It's hard to make futuristic vehicles that aren't boring
07:42:42 <andythenorth> I only intended to play until 2010
07:42:51 <andythenorth> I blame Busy Bee
07:43:05 <Pikka> what do you think of av9?
07:44:28 <andythenorth> I find it has exactly what I need, where and when I need it
07:44:40 <andythenorth> I don’t use most of the planes
07:44:43 <andythenorth> due to play style
07:44:48 <andythenorth> I don’t care about that
07:45:16 <Pikka> as long as it has what you need
07:45:39 <Pikka> that's the idea, it's there to suppliment and fill in corners
07:47:11 <andythenorth> Ore can deliver itself
07:47:15 * andythenorth should make trams
07:56:05 <andythenorth> Pikka: how many years between road vehicle generations?
07:59:17 <andythenorth> 20 seems to work in Road Hog for gameplay
07:59:22 <andythenorth> but 25 has advantages for andythenorth
07:59:35 <Pikka> one fewer over 100 years?
08:00:12 <andythenorth> 11 fewer trucks to draw + code
08:11:43 * andythenorth needs a safe word for Busy Bee
08:11:57 <andythenorth> I can’t abandon my game with goals part-met :P
08:15:22 <Alberth> or a sign "enough!" :)
08:16:08 <andythenorth> I’ll wait until I’ve changed some newgrf so much it breaks savegames
08:16:13 <andythenorth> or a new Busy Bee :P
08:16:51 <Alberth> just "accidently" loose the game file
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08:30:46 <andythenorth> maybe 30 years is actually better
08:30:57 <andythenorth> then the stats increases are significant
08:38:45 <supermop> hmm i am 30 and i can say my stats have not really increased significantly
08:39:07 <andythenorth> they will from now on
08:39:23 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: but maybe the stats of the next generation around you?
08:39:48 <supermop> oh yeah those guys are way better than me at everything Eddi|zuHause
08:40:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: time between different generation needs to be lower than the lifetime of the vehicles
08:42:12 <andythenorth> vehicle, or model?
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08:44:29 <andythenorth> wow, OpenTTD has scroll support :o
08:59:12 <Pikka> I don't know if my stat increases are significant
08:59:45 <Pikka> but then I'm treating my road vehicles like the planes - they're for filling in the corners around trains rather than being universally useful transport. ;)
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09:34:15 <mari_kiri> Woohoo, finally built a working SRNW in a local game
09:34:50 <mari_kiri> Quite basic but it delivers water to water towers
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10:10:11 <Wolf01> I just restored the original colour of some LEGO Technic sets :D
10:15:33 <Wolf01> no, I had to use the air compressor because they were plenty of stickers
10:18:39 <Wolf01> and I "can't" disassemble them because most of the old axles relatd pieces have cracks on them and I feel they won't be capable of staying together again
10:19:22 <Wolf01> I think the next bricklink order will be full of those pieces
10:29:55 <mari_kiri> Also finally made a not gate, might have to have a go at a few other things
10:30:37 <Wolf01> make a nand and open the road for *everything*
10:32:54 <mari_kiri> I suspect I'd know how to make nand and nor
10:36:47 <supermop> i got confused and thought someone was saying they made a technic nand gate
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10:37:19 <Wolf01> I think mechanical logic gates are possible, but I'm not a mechanic :D
10:37:54 <andythenorth> there are videos of technic logic gates
10:38:08 <supermop> im sure they are possible,
10:38:10 <andythenorth> most combinations can be done mechanically
10:38:17 <supermop> but id be astounded none he less
10:41:29 <mari_kiri> Yeah I've managed to suss out NAND + NOR
10:42:05 <Wolf01> interesting, but the problem is that you can't attach a motor to them, maybe you can attach a keyboard
10:42:40 <andythenorth> sometimes it would be nice if RVs could be refitted within a range
10:43:16 <Wolf01> I was able to build an and gate with a differential, but I have no clue on how to build a mechanical not gate... the torque won't generate from thin air
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10:49:24 * andythenorth must to trams now
10:49:32 <andythenorth> have any of you lot played Road Hog? o_O
10:50:30 <supermop> trams are a bit frustrating until the two hills or whatever shows up
10:51:29 <andythenorth> what do you miss?
10:51:55 <supermop> i want 300 person trams that load instantly in 1600
10:52:15 <andythenorth> just do venice :P
10:52:40 <supermop> but basically i think the performance gap between the balloon and modern tram is too great
10:53:03 <supermop> they are essentially different types of vehicle so not a fuid upgrade
10:53:27 <supermop> but i assume that is the point as the UK basically did not have mid-century trams
10:53:30 <andythenorth> it’s only a capacity jump of 270% :P
10:53:35 <andythenorth> where’s the problem?
10:53:48 <andythenorth> yeah, the UK lacked trams, but I’m bored of the history lesson now
10:53:54 <andythenorth> history lesson = bad game
10:54:17 <supermop> well maybe egrvts is not so mad an approach
10:54:39 <supermop> in that double deck and single deck trams have different lineages
10:55:18 <andythenorth> this could be a point
10:55:29 <andythenorth> that’s how buses / coaches are handled
10:55:42 <supermop> also if one is two lazy to properly timetable, you cant cheat it by making a 'dripper' of a stop with 10 day or whatever wait, and using long trams
10:56:03 <supermop> that will roughly keep trams evenly spaces if you spam enough of them
10:56:49 <supermop> i associate double deck trams with uk and hk, and articulated trams with aus and europe
10:57:33 <supermop> not sure if RH will have different rosters, but you could have a better double deck tram between the balloon and two hills
10:57:55 <supermop> or an earlier worse articulated tram that loads faster than balloon
10:58:32 <supermop> sometimes i end up overcapacity with the balloon but can work around it
10:58:58 <andythenorth> can’t find any mid-century UK prototypes for articulated
10:59:05 <andythenorth> but I could put two single trams together
10:59:23 <supermop> well no need to limit yourself to reality
10:59:50 <supermop> then again caould just keep it as is and tell users thats what they get for playing a british themed game
11:02:07 <andythenorth> what’s the gameplay distinction?
11:03:05 <supermop> between double deck vs articulated?
11:04:11 <supermop> can fit more double deck in a length of road for a given capacity, articulated can load fasted (if you code as such)
11:04:23 <supermop> is how i would intuit it
11:05:29 <supermop> presumably for less capacity one would have a single deck single car tram, but i don't think you'd ever need that with most house sets
11:06:19 <supermop> unless it's a hardcore tram focused set i don't think most people will care
11:06:44 <supermop> people just want to move around people quickly two and from rail stations
11:09:47 <Supercheese> ugh, nml cache issue
11:09:55 <Supercheese> I knew my code wasn't wrong
11:15:05 * Supercheese does not use any sort of "make"
11:15:13 <Supercheese> makefiles confuse me greatly
11:15:42 <mari_kiri> If you see one that is
11:15:53 * Supercheese has no idea what that is
11:16:11 <mari_kiri> Makefiles are pretty straightforward, just open a few in vim
11:16:37 <supermop> that pantograph tower seems to imply this creature had to share the road with double-deckers as well
11:16:48 * Supercheese does not use any sort of "vim"
11:17:00 <Supercheese> although in Bioshock I did use Vigors ;)
11:17:55 <supermop> andythenorth: maybe thinking too much on trams is a bit fruitless with the way tram tracks work
11:18:30 <andythenorth> I need to think just enough to put them in the grf ;)
11:18:32 <supermop> various types of historical configurations are going to end up pretty homogenized
11:18:49 <andythenorth> there are very few gameplay points for trams
11:19:02 <supermop> tram tracks and junctions are highly simplified
11:19:02 <andythenorth> fast / slow, big / small
11:19:25 <supermop> anything past loading speed and capacity is insignificant
11:20:18 <supermop> tram track is too clunky for interurbans except in most cases so top speed doesn't matter
11:21:13 <supermop> i find you can timetable 2 days for a tram to turn around at end of line for almost every tram from 1900 to 2100 in any game or set ive ever used
11:22:19 <supermop> egrvts could also have used something before the first two car tram though
11:24:22 <andythenorth> North American, Euro rosters will probably have interurbans
11:30:37 <supermop> not sure if fast trams are that useful in game though
11:31:12 <andythenorth> I dunno, feel like just one progression of trams is enough
11:32:30 <supermop> nah i mean trams are fast enough in most of my games
11:32:44 <andythenorth> and trams are always just big
11:32:50 <andythenorth> then the progression is simples
11:33:05 <supermop> i never find myself needing a small fast intercity tram: i would always use a train for that
11:35:38 <Supercheese> baking bread on the boiler, ha
11:37:36 <supermop> andythenorth: please make a steam coach in RH called "The infernal Difiance"
11:44:51 <Supercheese> Difference engine, meet defiance engine
11:47:12 <Supercheese> bloody cache at it again
11:47:20 <Supercheese> should disable it
11:48:58 <Supercheese> but this is the second time tonight it's messed up my perfectly fine code
11:49:07 <Supercheese> or well, messed up the grf generated anyway
11:49:54 <Supercheese> and I do not mind the extra ~3 seconds or so
11:50:35 <supermop> sold our fridge and now i have to keep beer outside
11:50:46 <supermop> doesnt seem cold enough
12:00:37 <Supercheese> dig a hole? Might be cooler a bit down
12:00:56 <Supercheese> if you've no cellar
12:07:36 <supermop> actually i've never seen a house with a basement in melbourne
12:12:56 <andythenorth> someone fix the trams while I’m gone, ta
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13:36:02 <rav> wow, adding custom sprites is hard! after digging around, I've found out how to patch media/extra_grf/openttd.nfo, src/newgrf.cpp, src/table/sprites.h, and the separately packaged projects opengfx, grfcodec and nml. to my naive eyes it looks like a lot of code duplication across several projects :-(
13:38:32 <rav> is there a secret way of keeping all those projects synchronized?
13:45:10 <Alberth> oher than knowing how it works? not really :)
13:46:32 <Alberth> not sure you'd have to bother with opengfx, grfcodec and nml at this point
13:47:01 <peter1138> grfcodec you do, else it won't let you add anything new
13:47:14 <peter1138> someone made it clever ;(
13:48:11 <Alberth> ah, 'intelligent' software, such a pain :(
13:54:53 <rav> I had to add an entry to action5_table in nml/actions/action5.py
13:55:30 <Alberth> yeah, but openttd doesn't depend on it
13:56:16 <Alberth> ie nml is only relevant after your patch has been integrated into openttd
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14:01:10 <andythenorth> is OpenTTD actually dead now? o_O
14:04:17 <Alberth> define a measurement of deadness, and you'll know :)
14:09:25 <andythenorth> there are only 2 of you left making regular commits
14:09:49 <andythenorth> forums are just Baldy’s Boss and newbies from Reddit asking questions that were already old in 2008
14:10:18 <andythenorth> irc is just andythenorth writing monologues
14:11:49 <andythenorth> I’ve just played an 80 year game, and there are no interestingly broken or missing features
14:12:38 <andythenorth> newgrf is ‘solved’, except for RVs and maybe ships
14:12:57 <andythenorth> gameplay and economy variation is provably solved by GS
14:13:06 <andythenorth> content comes from bananas
14:13:12 <andythenorth> translation is sorted
14:13:45 <andythenorth> there are no factions left in the openttd community, all the outsiders got bored or driven away
14:30:35 <Alberth> sounds like it is then :)
14:31:26 * andythenorth wonders where all the programmers came from
14:31:43 <andythenorth> did they play original TTD in the 1990s?
14:32:35 <Alberth> quite likely, or at least simulation-ish games, I think
14:32:54 <andythenorth> there was a cohort of people with significant capability :)
14:33:51 <Alberth> programming in the previous century implied getting your hands dirty in the compiled languages
14:34:33 * andythenorth never got beyond BASIC :)
14:34:56 <Alberth> but even there you had a lot of POKE and PEEK stuff
14:36:14 <Alberth> a lot of todays programmers grew up with GPU and 3d rendering
14:36:35 <Alberth> combined with C# or so
14:37:29 <Alberth> but then it's a long way to C++ stuff in openttd style
14:37:58 <Alberth> not to mention the graphics look ancient to those programmers
14:47:00 <andythenorth> are there any interesting patches?
14:51:39 <Alberth> my notion of 'interesting' is quite skewed wrt general opinion :)
14:58:30 <rav> (waiting for YouTube to process my 15 second screencast)
14:58:44 <rav> I'll be back in 30-60 minutes
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17:14:29 <andythenorth> freight trams next
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17:51:02 * andythenorth thinks that freight trams are long-lived
17:51:10 <andythenorth> and stats don’t change much
17:51:18 <andythenorth> more power, higher speed, same capacity
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18:18:15 <Alberth> sufficient space off-road :)
18:18:34 <Alberth> I wonder what goes wrong if you don't increase stats
18:19:15 <andythenorth> if there are no increases at all?
18:19:24 <andythenorth> redundant vehicles :)
18:20:05 <Alberth> but nuts has models with 255 year lifetime, yet you get increasing stats all the time
18:20:48 <Alberth> so what 's the game play goal for increasing stats?
18:21:09 <andythenorth> micro-management
18:21:23 <andythenorth> also keeps up with increased industry + town production
18:21:50 <andythenorth> not all micro-management is bad
18:22:58 <Alberth> yeah, increasing produnction seems a good reason
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18:23:28 <andythenorth> also, the speed of earlier vehicles is annoying
18:23:44 <andythenorth> and there’s a sense of achievment when the vehicles are better
18:23:49 <andythenorth> despite that the player did little :)
18:24:15 * andythenorth has considered some kind of technology ladder before :P
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21:38:01 <Supercheese> nice autoroad improvement, rav
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