IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-06-13
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00:03:20 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
00:06:48 <_dp_> there is independent implementation of those tooltips in citymania (former novapolis) patchpack, if you like it I can make a separate patch for it
00:07:31 <_dp_> same goes for many other features from this patchpack
00:07:54 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: well, you're free to submit thos
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00:15:30 <_dp_> And I am submitting them sometimes, but I don't want to waste time on something that will just lay somewhere on flyspray turning to dust
00:16:20 <Eddi|zuHause> they may very well do that for a while, but you'll never know if you don't start
00:16:45 <Eddi|zuHause> generally: the smaller and cleaner a patch is, the higher its chances of being reviewed
00:23:40 <_dp_> it's not always about code, I don't think you need some citybuilder features no matter how good code is
00:24:34 <_dp_> for features that were made by me and whics I consider to have chances of being accepted I usually submit patches
00:25:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i think in the rarest case, features get rejected for the feature's sake
00:26:18 <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes because it clashes with another feature (existing or future)
00:27:59 <Eddi|zuHause> and most of the features that would be rejected for the feature's sake never make it to any stage of implementation for this to take effect
00:28:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean things along the lines of "make it more violent" or "make it more like sim city"
00:31:28 <_dp_> well, mb it's the other way around, they never make it to that stage because they would be rejected anyway ;)
00:40:26 <Eddi|zuHause> well, people have been telling that daylength patches won't be accepted because they're never going to be able to be polished enough to make it, yet people still attempted to make more daylength patches
00:44:27 <glx> and each try is as buggy as others ;)
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02:53:49 <Eddi|zuHause> the way i see it, there are two basic problems with the daylength patches
02:54:19 <Eddi|zuHause> first, every time a daylength patch was started, they bascally started from scratch and ignored all the experience and mistakes that were done in the previous attempts
02:54:54 <Eddi|zuHause> second, all the attempts were "bottom up". starting with changing daylength, and then seeing which things need fixing wrt being per day or per tick
02:55:37 <Eddi|zuHause> where i think the approach must be "top down". first identifying which things should be per day, and which should be per tick, adapting the architecture to reflect that, and THEN adding daylength
03:01:52 <Sylf> oh, yet another daylength discussion
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05:29:47 <fkinglag> is openttd the best FOSS game?
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06:28:00 <Flygon> fkinglag: Depends on your opinions towards piracy
06:28:08 <Flygon> And if you would count open source shareware
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08:22:50 <andythenorth> there is a new feature in the sprite aligner recently?
08:22:55 <andythenorth> relative offset?
08:24:25 <Alberth> someone was annoyed enough to make a patch
08:25:01 <andythenorth> either we have sub-pixel alignment now, or it doesn’t account for UI zoom ;)
08:25:17 <andythenorth> or something else :P
08:25:33 <Alberth> sounds complete enough :)
08:26:22 <Alberth> I don't know if it is pre-UIzoom, but it can be
08:27:06 <Alberth> I think there is an issue about it, and maybe frosch even fixed something there
08:27:18 * andythenorth has been fixing Iron Horse
08:27:21 <andythenorth> terrible grf, wouldn’t use it
08:30:29 * andythenorth ponders parameter for intro dates
08:32:33 <Alberth> well, I still think the daylength solution is in newgrf rather than c++ engine code
08:33:04 <Alberth> so it looks like a good experiment to me
08:33:11 <andythenorth> I can solve it for ships, trains, RVs, industries
08:33:19 <andythenorth> so pikka just needs to do planes and houses :P
08:33:41 <andythenorth> but if the same code is in every newgrf for this, then I wonder if newgrf spec should handle it :P
08:33:58 <andythenorth> ‘scale intro dates'
08:34:24 <andythenorth> I think there are problems with how some people use callbacks though :(
08:34:51 <andythenorth> e.g. I have date-based callbacks for graphics
08:35:11 <andythenorth> OpenTTD should just lie to newgrfs about the date :P
08:35:52 <Alberth> problem is that all realistic newgrfs will be horribly broken
08:37:15 <Alberth> I do like different graphics for the same wagon, it makes the train more colourful
08:37:55 <Alberth> tbh I don't care if you do that based on date or on random or some other method
08:39:11 <Alberth> hmm, maybe we should have unltra-realistic dates, one day == 24 hours
08:39:21 <andythenorth> it’s mostly industry graphics that are date-based in my case
08:39:37 <andythenorth> ‘other newgrfs are available’ :P
08:40:08 <Alberth> any shorter day messes up the time in the game :)
08:40:33 <Alberth> yeah, opengfx+trains changes appearance over time
08:42:13 <Alberth> nuts uses hidden features :)
08:42:29 <Alberth> transporting ducks :)
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09:18:19 <andythenorth> it would be nice to switch colour on these tank cars
09:18:49 <supermop_> make them iridescent
09:20:34 * andythenorth considers splitting ‘’tank car’ and oil tank car’
09:20:41 <andythenorth> make them company colour and black
09:21:20 <andythenorth> or ‘chemicals tank car’ and ‘oil tank car'
09:23:54 <andythenorth> I got bored of them all being black
09:24:06 * andythenorth wonders if ‘livery’ should be a thing for vehicles
09:24:14 <andythenorth> or if it’s fine to just handle it in buy menu
09:25:38 <supermop_> liveries could be fun
09:25:46 <supermop_> to make things less boring?
09:26:00 <supermop_> what am i supposed to use this avocet for
09:26:16 <supermop_> should i buy more than one or would that be cheating
09:28:25 * andythenorth looks up ‘over-thinking it’ in a dictionary :P
09:28:53 <Alberth> just do what your heart tells you to?
09:29:21 <Alberth> no need to have a consistent global idea :)
09:30:24 <Alberth> hmm, my unicode fonts aren't very complete :)
09:31:01 <supermop_> oh its a class 90 not 89
09:31:26 <andythenorth> you’re playing UKRS 2?
09:32:07 <Alberth> newbie: but feel free to join the discussion, we're pretty much never on-topic :)
09:32:30 <supermop_> with manpower industries
09:32:36 <andythenorth> Pineapple and Iron Horse solve these realism dilemmas for you supermop_ :P
09:32:42 <supermop_> very hard to make money
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09:34:10 <supermop_> andythenorth: i like the liveries?
09:34:26 <andythenorth> do default trains shift y position by 1 pixel when reversing direction? o_O
09:34:35 * andythenorth may have done something wrong in Iron Horse :(
09:34:41 <supermop_> just like how the things turn grey in the 80s when pulling freight
09:35:11 <supermop_> ogfx+ should have different liveries for sh 30 and 40
09:35:28 <supermop_> so they dont just look like two identical toasters
09:35:51 <Alberth> ogfx+ has as general problem lack of choice imho
09:38:22 <peter1138> supermop_, not possible without newgrf.
09:51:42 <supermop_> how do i get the pointy cab car on the back of my class 90 hauled trains?
10:05:10 <supermop_> mail car can only do 160 though
10:13:18 <supermop_> Alberth: you mean that ogfx+ trains should have more locomotives, or what?
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10:14:25 <Alberth> mostly yes, currently it just replicates default vehicles
10:15:15 <Alberth> it'd be nice if you could postpone switching to eg monorail or maglev a bit
10:15:37 <Alberth> or even electric, for the climates that use that
10:16:36 <Alberth> not sure it should go much further though, after all it's default-ish, which in my view, includes forced transition to other railtypes
10:17:05 <Alberth> although openttd makes it too easy to do that "wrong"
10:17:33 <Alberth> ie upgrade to next railtype in a few mouse clicks basically kills the idea
10:18:23 <Alberth> what you'd want is more time to make the transition, and some incentive not to just replace all you have
10:18:47 <supermop_> the american/tropic climates should have some electrics maybe
10:19:29 <supermop_> and some standard gauge locomotives beyond 1994 would help in temperate
10:19:57 <Alberth> maybe monorail + maglev is too much, switching rail type so often in 100 years feels a bit forced to me
10:20:21 <supermop_> the 'arctic' climate could use a train of any kind before the 50s
10:20:31 <Alberth> I am suspecting CS ran out of ideas what to do in 100 game years
10:21:01 <supermop_> but maglev is quite ttd feeling maybe?
10:21:43 <Alberth> everybody uses that as it's the final type, and it has the fastest engines and is most reliable
10:22:01 <Alberth> although reliability is useless for most
10:22:03 <supermop_> i never have used default maglev myself
10:22:29 <supermop_> also i have rarely played a default game long enough to get maglev
10:23:09 <Alberth> yeah, I have only reached that point a few times
10:23:56 <Alberth> and I can see the value of adding a completely new track type
10:24:09 <Alberth> but as complementary to what you have, imho
10:24:19 <Alberth> no idea how to do that though :(
10:25:05 <Alberth> in the original game, you had to take down your network, and rebuild it
10:25:24 <Alberth> that had the advantage that you reconsidered place of tracks, etc
10:25:52 <supermop_> also we could say "maglev is passenger and mail only" - much like tto monorail
10:26:09 <supermop_> that feels too limiting
10:26:36 <supermop_> maglev should maybe carry coal, but perhaps not as well as rail?
10:26:39 <Alberth> then you need to add 'normal' engines for the industries
10:27:04 <Alberth> coal is probably the most useless stuff to transport fast :)
10:27:29 <Alberth> it's a million years old, taking a year to ship it is not going to make any difference :)
10:27:29 <supermop_> like maybe a maglev car can carry col if you really want, but only 10T insted of 40...
10:27:59 <supermop_> and takes longer to unload because it is not a regular hopper - cannot dump out the bottom
10:28:09 <Alberth> you need some competition at normal tracks imho
10:28:27 <Alberth> much like nuts is doing
10:28:35 <supermop_> so maybe you get a new efficient rail locomotive in 2050
10:29:07 <supermop_> maybe it only does 160 kmh but is cheap to run, has lots of power
10:29:15 <Alberth> much much earlier, you won't be able to keep normal rail running until 2050
10:29:31 <Alberth> but yep, something like that
10:29:35 <supermop_> well also in 1995, 2005,...2045...
10:29:46 <supermop_> once every 10 years or so
10:30:01 * andythenorth was going to add Maglev to Iron Horse, but....hasn't
10:30:20 <supermop_> andythenorth: didnt some airport in uk have a maglev in the 80s?
10:30:28 <Alberth> supermop_: you know entire electric in default is just 2 or 3 engines, right?
10:30:55 <Alberth> a new one every ten years is too much :)
10:31:00 <supermop_> i like ukrs 2 because it is like playing tto but with more electrics
10:31:15 <supermop_> well maybe not every ten
10:31:16 <Alberth> many newgrf have way too many engines
10:31:41 <Alberth> openttd makes it workable by the autoupdate
10:31:51 <supermop_> but a mix of a few powerful and a few small locomotives to last until 2100 or so
10:32:50 <supermop_> one every 20 years maybe
10:32:50 <Alberth> something like that, 2050 is enough, unless you extend maglev too
10:34:08 <Alberth> you would have to check what default does currently, and keep that mostly to get a continuous line
10:34:24 <supermop_> i also like IH because it is like tto with more locomotives
10:34:25 <Alberth> although with diesels, I always found I got too many
10:35:06 <supermop_> well in temerate you get all 3 diesels in the same 5 year span, then never get any more
10:35:29 <Alberth> oh, could be, never really checked that
10:35:45 <Alberth> but normally I pick one and use that for everything
10:36:03 <Alberth> also due to reliability, making the others quite useless
10:36:21 <supermop_> in that regard default is almost too realistic, BR did build a lot of diesels in late 50s-early 60s, then did not design more for a long time
10:36:53 <supermop_> in default temperate, the floss 47 is pretty much the only one to use
10:36:56 <Alberth> ungrade should be worthwhile imho. From 150 km/h to 160 km/h doesn't do much
10:38:01 <supermop_> i dont think i've played an IH game into the 80s though
10:38:28 <Alberth> me neither, probably, as it starts really early :)
10:39:21 <supermop_> i think it does diesels well though -
10:39:56 <supermop_> there is a big difference between small branch line, fast express, and powerful freight
10:40:32 <Alberth> I mostly do the latter only :)
10:41:06 <Alberth> pax is nice due to the insane amount of cargo :)
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10:41:32 <supermop_> more multiple units could be nice
10:41:44 <supermop_> but not as many as some newgrfs have
10:41:44 <andythenorth> I have just played from 1968 or so to 2014
10:42:13 <supermop_> in 2cc set there are so many EMUs you have no idea what to pick
10:42:59 <supermop_> in default there are only two DMUs, only in temperate, and they come at a sort of akward time
10:43:01 <Alberth> of course, you put a bunch of train collectors together, and ask what to draw :p
10:43:32 <supermop_> ogfx+ could use maye one more dmu, and maybe 3-4 emu
10:43:33 <Alberth> obviously, you'll end up with the union of everything ever built :)
10:43:53 <supermop_> except for some odd huge gaps
10:43:56 <andythenorth> IH diesels and electrics, it’s always obvious which one to choose
10:44:02 <andythenorth> which was the goal
10:44:40 <supermop_> for some reason 2cc set has almost no american or australian multiple units, but an insane number or european ones
10:44:55 <andythenorth> the progression in IH is a bit fast 1950-1980
10:44:57 <Alberth> supermop_: yep, reality has this problem of not working out that it fits perfectly in a game :p
10:45:39 <supermop_> andythenorth: the chinook gets let out in the cold a bit
10:45:49 <supermop_> i try to keep a few running
10:45:59 <supermop_> by cascading them other places
10:47:06 <supermop_> but the combination of slow and long means they usually get replaced by vulcans before the gridiron even arrives for me
10:47:45 <supermop_> is the gridiron a 58?
10:50:14 <andythenorth> most things are not anything in Iron Horse
10:50:25 <andythenorth> Chinook is fairly obvious and realistic
10:51:30 <andythenorth> gridiron could be HS 4000 / 56 / 58 / 59 / 60 / 66
10:52:01 <andythenorth> Vulcan is any of DP 2 / Deltic / 37 / 50
10:53:00 <andythenorth> we looked at quite a lot of prototypes or proposed prototypes
10:53:10 <andythenorth> but stats are all done for game balance
11:00:00 <supermop_> i've found use for these little 08s in this game
11:00:50 <supermop_> by using them to fillout out a shared orders group for timetabling before i can afford to buy a full complement of trains
11:02:07 <supermop_> if a turn takes 200 days and i want it served every 40 days, but can only afford 2-3 trains right now, ill fill out the group with shunters parked in depots to set the start dates
11:02:27 <supermop_> then substitute in trains as i can afford them
11:03:07 * andythenorth wonders if Iron Horse needs EMUs
11:03:25 <supermop_> it has the tube emus
11:04:02 <supermop_> Alberth: it gives me an excuse to have the cute little shunters sitting around
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12:16:37 <leg> hi. I am running an openttd and a player forgot his company password, is it possible for me to recover/reset it?
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12:23:09 <frosch123> use the console to move them to their company
12:23:16 <frosch123> then they can set a new password
12:25:28 <frosch123> alternatively move yourself to that company, and set your own password
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12:28:39 <NumberNoid> is there a newgfr that adds passanger destinations?
12:29:20 <Alberth> newwer openttds have cargo dist though
12:29:38 <NumberNoid> what does cargo distribution do though?
12:30:28 <Alberth> it gives cargo (which can include passengers and mail) a destination they want to go to, in your network
12:30:52 <NumberNoid> and where is that setting?
12:32:30 <Alberth> you can enable passengers/mail, valuables, and 'other cargo' separately afaik
12:32:42 <NumberNoid> is asymetric more realistic than symmetric?
12:33:34 <Alberth> symmetric is easier in a sense, and both directions get more or less the same amount of cargo
12:33:43 <openbu> welcome to our servers Dedicated openbu.org -#1-[1995,2050] MBA,EMBA,Capitalism lab,Stock Market,Apartment,
12:34:30 <Alberth> on the other hand, produced cargo by an industry is rarely symmetric :)
12:34:43 <Alberth> openbu: please don't do that, we don't need advertising
12:35:47 <NumberNoid> so this finally means I can have a useful interchange system :D
12:36:09 <Alberth> well, it depends on what you think is useful :)
12:36:32 <NumberNoid> not just a liability that sometimes snips the overflow
12:36:47 * NumberNoid glares at previous airport interchange
12:37:02 <Alberth> but there are no alternatives, so "use" doesn't mean a lot
12:38:12 <NumberNoid> is there any plans to add a subway system to openttd?
12:38:33 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
12:38:35 <Alberth> it sounds like you have a plan, so yes :p
12:38:43 <Alberth> but nothing concretely
12:38:43 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on what you consider a "plan"
12:38:58 <NumberNoid> my programming skills don't extend past livecode, which I had to learn at school
12:38:59 <Alberth> and I very much doubt it would fit in openttd, tbh
12:39:19 <Alberth> maybe the subway would fit
12:39:29 <NumberNoid> yeah, that's what wouyld be very good
12:39:44 <NumberNoid> I tried simutrans but the UI is just wtf
12:39:48 <Eddi|zuHause> for me, "subway" is a natural extension of the tram system
12:39:57 <NumberNoid> along with the cycles being laggy
12:40:37 <Eddi|zuHause> you lay the tram tracks under (or over) the road to prevent blocking by road vehicles in crowded cities
12:40:42 <Alberth> NumberNoid: ever tried this program called OpenTTD? it also has lots of weird UI corners where you need to know how to use it :)
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12:40:58 <NumberNoid> I am playing openttd :P
12:41:05 <NumberNoid> and the UI is intuitive
12:41:20 <Alberth> If you know a system, it's always intuitive
12:41:58 <Eddi|zuHause> there are definitely cases where you know a system, and it's still wtf :p
12:42:53 <Eddi|zuHause> there are probably plenty of git guis
12:43:01 <Alberth> I have yet to see a VCS that comes with a UI
12:43:12 <Alberth> UI is always separate
12:43:28 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: not of any useful quality, I am afraid
12:43:42 <Alberth> maybe the github client
12:44:05 <Alberth> but it may not run at linux :)
12:44:48 <NumberNoid> my main issue with linux is that it just doesnt have many GUI's or a simple package installer
12:44:57 <NumberNoid> ...that isnt in the command line
12:45:39 <NumberNoid> only debian and ubuntu
12:45:46 <NumberNoid> my laptop is debian
12:45:48 <Eddi|zuHause> there are quite certainly package manager GUIs
12:45:57 <Alberth> ah yes, the pure unixy stuff :)
12:46:04 <NumberNoid> I guess I could get windows bakc on it
12:46:17 <NumberNoid> but I don't see the point outside of increased software support
12:46:39 <NumberNoid> I cant think of any game that I play that doesnt run on linux
12:46:49 <NumberNoid> and more specifically on 5y hardware
12:46:56 <Eddi|zuHause> that depends on how many games you play
12:47:29 <Alberth> as well as type of game
12:47:31 <NumberNoid> OTTD, ETS2, cities
12:47:40 <NumberNoid> sometimes Planetside2
12:47:47 <NumberNoid> but im done with that game for a while
12:47:53 <Alberth> but the linux support is growing, which is good
12:48:33 <NumberNoid> I wish there was a good emulator for linux that could run all the games without hitches
12:48:37 <NumberNoid> or wine got developed more
12:48:47 <Eddi|zuHause> out of the 9 games i have on steam, 3 are windows-only
12:49:06 <NumberNoid> I have 140 games on steam, about 60 are linux compatable
12:49:17 <NumberNoid> and about 20 run on 5y hardware
12:49:28 <NumberNoid> my PC is a proper gaming one
12:49:31 <Eddi|zuHause> and then i have some games outside steam, which almost all are windows games
12:49:48 <NumberNoid> but I need other things before a new laptop
12:52:17 <NumberNoid> or hacking abilities :3
12:53:10 <Alberth> you already have those
12:53:41 <Alberth> you just need to use them, to get more :)
12:54:01 <NumberNoid> considering I said this on the net im quite sure it wouldnt be wise to hack anyone
12:54:10 <NumberNoid> especially with windows on my machine
12:57:39 <Alberth> hacking other peoples property doesn't sound right to me
12:58:21 <Alberth> I see "hacking" in the original meaning, "finding out how things work"
13:00:15 <Alberth> you can do that with just your own stuff
13:02:05 <NumberNoid> im quite sure it'd be difficult to optise 5yr old hardware
13:05:50 <Alberth> most gain is not in the hardware, but in the software
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13:07:12 <NumberNoid> but there is bound to be some hardware inefficencies in the terms of addressing and task managment
13:07:31 <jottyfan> yesterday I gave a patch for game script busy bee to Alberh if I remember correctly
13:07:34 <NumberNoid> which, ironically, goes back to "driving" software
13:07:49 <jottyfan> then my time ran out
13:08:06 <jottyfan> I just wanted to have a look for comments / questions about that
13:08:55 * NumberNoid doesnt use game scripts
13:09:07 <NumberNoid> also, there is a bug on the roads with one way arrows
13:09:16 <NumberNoid> on slopes they don't slope with the road
13:11:09 <Alberth> jottyfan: patch was not complete
13:11:23 <jottyfan> ok, what is missing?
13:14:24 <Alberth> ie a new setting and a bunch of new string doesn't make a new feature :)
13:15:07 <jottyfan> I wonder where the diffs of the nut files are...
13:15:27 <Alberth> np, it happens, especially when you're in a hurry
13:15:46 <Eddi|zuHause> wrt that setting: what use is a value range of 0..99 if only 3,2,1 give sane results?
13:16:51 <Eddi|zuHause> also, why not reuse the game setting?
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13:19:27 <jottyfan> @Eddi|zuHause: these settings are useful for changing the game in a way the player wants - why not a range from 0 to 99?
13:20:10 <jottyfan> btw. it's not the subsidy factor itself
13:20:29 <jottyfan> it's the factor for the delivered cargo to become reward
13:20:39 <Eddi|zuHause> jottyfan: so setting 0 means no income at all? and between 1 and 2 (which the original setting had a 1.5 option) you have no variation potential?
13:21:12 <jottyfan> 0 is useful if you want to disable financial rewards for fulfilling jobs
13:21:31 <Eddi|zuHause> and factor 50 or 99 have no use, because both of them mean "make this ridiculously easy"
13:21:47 <jottyfan> but for people like me who want to use that, I'd like to choose for example factor 1
13:22:35 <jottyfan> but if I want to play openttd the easy way, I can choose 99
13:22:55 <Eddi|zuHause> but there is almost no difference between 98 or 99
13:23:00 <Alberth> it sounds too big to me
13:23:07 <Eddi|zuHause> so why have so many options in that range?
13:23:24 <jottyfan> I've just guessed a bit
13:24:00 <jottyfan> one can easily change it to a lower bound before it is included to the official sources (if so)
13:24:31 <Alberth> I can see the point of Eddi
13:24:59 <Alberth> maybe make smaller steps in the low end of the range, and skip most if not all of the top part?
13:25:05 <jottyfan> what about a factor of 10, instead of range 0 - 99 a range of 0 - 9 multiplied by 10?
13:25:25 <Alberth> note that BB gives you a lot of assignments, much more than subsidies
13:26:13 <Alberth> why do you want anything above say 5 ?
13:26:57 <jottyfan> ok, so a range from 0 to 4 multiplied by 20?
13:27:42 <jottyfan> I don't know how to make a value of 1.5 in the GSInfo.AddSetting...
13:27:44 <Alberth> 0 to 4 sounds good, perhaps in increments of 0.5?
13:28:34 <Alberth> just use integers 0..9, and divide by 2 in the reward calculation
13:28:47 <Alberth> or 2.0, for that mater
13:29:21 <Alberth> why do you double town goals?
13:29:52 <Alberth> this.reward = this.reward * 2; // for town goals, multiply reward
13:30:38 <Alberth> indenting is wrong in the paste, used a weird tab setting?
13:30:57 <jottyfan> no, I just wanted to make town rewards more attractive
13:31:03 <jottyfan> but this could be a config option, too
13:32:01 <leg> Can I update openTTD server 1.4.1 to 1.5.1 without losing everything?
13:32:07 <jottyfan> about the tab setting - yes, I used kwrite... :-(
13:32:08 <Alberth> towns only seems wrong, it would need balance to both sides
13:32:35 <Alberth> but I am not sure it's wise to add anything like that
13:33:20 <jottyfan> why not a town bonus factor?
13:33:20 <Alberth> leg: just install next to it?
13:33:32 <leg> but will I not lose the map, Alberth?
13:33:38 <leg> if I upgrade the server to 1.5.1
13:34:14 <Alberth> leg: no idea, I never did any server install stuff
13:34:34 <Alberth> but in general, don't overwrite the file, and you should still have it :)
13:35:03 <Alberth> leg: "next to it" specifically means not overwriting anything :)
13:35:14 <Alberth> jottyfan: why only towns?
13:35:44 <jottyfan> ok, so also for industries
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13:36:19 <Alberth> yeah, the main problem is that number of industry cargoes and number of town cargoes is not balanced
13:38:34 <Alberth> 2xtown means you give more to town goals (for their cargoes), than to industry (for their cargoes)
13:38:58 <Alberth> so if you change the number of cargoes by a different industry set, that balance changes too
13:39:59 <jottyfan> but if I put that to the config options, the player can choose what the balance is
13:40:27 <jottyfan> what range is good for that? Also 0 to 5 by step 0.5?
13:41:03 <Alberth> I'd say 0 to 2 in steps of 0.1 or so
13:41:16 <Alberth> but it needs something with the cargoes
13:42:13 <Alberth> or perhaps I am just overthinking it :)
13:42:32 <jottyfan> yes, that would be best, but I don't know how to get cargo price values in the script
13:43:25 <Alberth> well, one step at a time
13:43:37 <jottyfan> ok, I'll post the current changes
13:43:44 <Alberth> take out the city reward for now
13:43:44 <jottyfan> but didn't test that yet
13:44:23 <Alberth> tbh I am far from convinced for all this reward tuning
13:45:53 <Alberth> jottyfan: If you want more than just this one step, I think it might be better to make a fork
13:46:38 <jottyfan> that's the current code
13:46:52 <jottyfan> so you would prefer to become this a fork?
13:47:54 <jottyfan> I don't know how to make this a fork
13:47:55 <Alberth> giving a reward is one, I can live with that in BB
13:48:31 <Alberth> further tuning will be a maze of cases that you can or might want to handle
13:48:51 <Alberth> I am quite sure, there'll be lots of interest in it :)
13:49:09 <jottyfan> so If I remove the reward factor for towns and industries, you may include that patch into busy bee?
13:49:33 <Alberth> jottyfan: if you want a fork, you have to decide where to host it
13:49:48 <jottyfan> yes, and this is making me trouble
13:50:16 <jottyfan> I just wanted to have subsidies for cargodist goods - using busy bee I can
13:50:52 <Alberth> you don't want reward factors?
13:50:54 <jottyfan> but it's just a sort of subsidies
13:51:12 <Alberth> yes, lots of subsidies
13:51:32 <Alberth> BB generates a lot of goals
13:51:52 <jottyfan> I like reward factors, but I cannot take care of a fork for that
13:52:06 <jottyfan> therefore, I'd like to see it in busy bee
13:52:23 <jottyfan> so whenever I come back in let's say a year, download openttd, install game script busy bee
13:52:35 <jottyfan> I can be able to use subsidies for cargodist goods
13:52:57 <Alberth> so ownership of the project is your problem
13:52:57 <jottyfan> and if I cannot have reward factors for towns and industries, that's ok
13:53:23 <jottyfan> and therefore, I'd like this little reward patch to be included in the main project
13:53:31 <jottyfan> it's not that much change
13:53:34 <Alberth> andythenorth: fancy another BB to take care of? :)
13:53:47 <Alberth> do you have a nice name jottyfan?
13:54:12 <jottyfan> to honour busy bee, I just called it busy bee rewards
13:54:22 <jottyfan> but I'm not convinced by that
13:55:06 <Alberth> I have no problem with becoming owner of the fork
13:55:15 <Alberth> do you want to become co-owner?
13:55:36 <Alberth> or some other role in the project (don't know exactly what devzone has)
13:55:39 <jottyfan> that would be nice, but I'm always busy, don't have much time for that
13:55:59 <Alberth> please make an account at the devzone
13:56:08 <jottyfan> currently expecting the birth of my second child
13:57:50 <jottyfan> a new password - argh
13:57:55 <andythenorth> on the plus side the second one is not as much work as the first one
13:57:59 <jottyfan> if I forget that, a new one is mailed to me?
13:58:16 <andythenorth> on the minus side, it’s still nearly double the work in total :P
13:58:24 <Alberth> jottyfan: don't know, probably
13:58:57 <Alberth> andythenorth: I expect more work here, as there will be more users addicted to getting stuff in return
13:59:06 <jottyfan> what's an OpenID-Url?
13:59:31 <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't know that, ignore it
14:00:29 <Alberth> jottyfan, andythenorth: Bee Rewards?
14:01:28 <jottyfan> my nick name is jottyfan, as you might expect... :-)
14:01:38 <Alberth> nice and simple to guess :)
14:02:25 <Alberth> please join #openttdcoop.devzone
14:02:28 <jottyfan> ok, what do I have to do to publish the forked code?
14:03:14 <jottyfan> ok, switched chat room
14:06:26 <Eddi|zuHause> ... you can be in more than one chatroom :p
14:32:44 <andythenorth> you developers and your obscure scripting language
14:35:24 <frosch123> i wondered what it refered to :)
14:35:30 <frosch123> i somehow doubt it was squirrel
14:35:35 <frosch123> rather newgrf, or even c++
14:38:00 <NumberNoid> I need to ask, is there any way of setting fare prices?
14:39:29 <Eddi|zuHause> NewGRFs can change them
14:40:05 <Eddi|zuHause> you can adjust all of them up or down by base cost, or you can adjust each one individually in industry grf
14:42:12 <NumberNoid> so I can charge exorbitant fees for planes >:D
14:42:47 <Eddi|zuHause> set plane speed factor to 1
14:43:07 <Eddi|zuHause> fly large distances
14:43:33 <Eddi|zuHause> (or turn on airport maintenance and go bankrupt)
14:44:08 <NumberNoid> I don't see that option
14:46:25 <NumberNoid> I have no idea where its gone
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14:47:10 <NumberNoid> it went on an inter-network voyage to find a depot
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15:50:52 <andythenorth> up to 16 livery options per vehicle
15:51:06 <andythenorth> applied by a UI similar to the consist refit UI, which allows partial-selection
15:51:11 <andythenorth> don’t bother with previews, overkill
15:51:17 <andythenorth> nah better it make it 255
15:51:22 <andythenorth> due to WAS and such
15:53:55 <andythenorth> in fact, 16536 might be needed
15:55:37 <andythenorth> all this because I want to choose black or CC tanker wagons :P
16:01:32 <NumberNoid> any way to increase the fast forward speed?
16:01:47 <Alberth> buy a faster computer, or play a smaller world
16:01:57 <Alberth> close the window, or make it smaller
16:02:10 <Alberth> disable some animation stuff
16:02:35 <Alberth> look at trains while they go by
16:02:37 <NumberNoid> im 100% sure my pc is capable of running fastforward faster than this
16:02:53 <Alberth> I am 100% sure it isn't :)
16:03:07 <NumberNoid> fx8320, gtx770, 12gbram?
16:03:07 <Alberth> "fast foward" means "as fast as the computer allows"
16:03:58 <Alberth> note openttd doesn't use much memory, the gpu, or multiple cores (well, it does, but not much)
16:04:16 <NumberNoid> it should be able to run this faster
16:04:21 <NumberNoid> currently at 16% cpu
16:04:54 <NumberNoid> the load is distrubuted primarly though cores 3,4
16:05:21 <NumberNoid> according to task manager its not using any core fully
16:06:04 <Alberth> then it's waiting for video or disk io, or something
16:06:40 <andythenorth> maybe I just change colour by cargo
16:06:52 <andythenorth> weird side effects with station refit, but eh, who cares? o_O
16:07:37 <NumberNoid> im confused as in why system is using 55MB
16:09:23 <Alberth> my guess would be video, especially if you have a large window, and use 32bpp
16:09:45 <NumberNoid> gtx770 rendering sprites
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16:09:56 <Alberth> cpu is rendering sprites
16:10:11 <NumberNoid> any way to force gpu rendering?
16:10:29 <Alberth> oh, and people tried, and failed
16:10:35 <NumberNoid> openttd is coded to render using cpu?!
16:11:01 <Taede> opengl style patches tended to be slower
16:11:01 <Alberth> yep, TTDX is pre-gpu era
16:11:45 <NumberNoid> time to OC I guess
16:12:06 <Taede> previous milennium really
16:12:40 <NumberNoid> Is the other, 3d openttd, like game on steam worth it?
16:13:29 <NumberNoid> but does it have the base features of openttd?
16:13:32 <Alberth> maybe a transport-ish game, but it's definitely not openttd
16:13:36 <NumberNoid> i.e. planes, trains, cars
16:14:07 <Taede> dunno, cant play it on this laptip
16:14:42 <Taede> there may be a thread on the tt-forums about it
16:15:01 <Taede> no doubt itll compare it to openttd
16:15:30 <NumberNoid> Id love to code a 3d openttd but as I mentioned my programming skills are terrible
16:16:55 <Alberth> it probably takes a 10 years if you mostly know what you're doing
16:17:30 <Alberth> so it's not a short term project by any means, learning to program can be a good first step
16:19:41 <Alberth> you should focus on the journey, the end product is a nice 'accident' :)
16:22:27 <NumberNoid> a 64x64 map runs considerably faster
16:33:58 <Alberth> you're supposed to play the game at normal speed :)
16:34:10 <NumberNoid> I don't have all year
16:34:55 <Alberth> hmm, having free time, and still stressed on time?
16:35:32 <Alberth> just save, and continue next time
16:36:40 <Alberth> a single game takes me ages, as I don't play often, but who cares, nobody is setting a deadline
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16:53:01 <andythenorth_> Two kinds of dump truck in Road Hog
16:53:55 <andythenorth_> Farm trucks, and trucks that refit coal, sand, scrap metal, recyclables etc
16:54:12 <andythenorth_> Dunno what to call the second kind
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16:58:05 <andythenorth_> Inorganic Material Dump Trucks? :p
16:58:48 <andythenorth_> Maybe just Dump Truck :p
16:59:29 <Alberth> dump truck refitabble to ... :)
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19:48:37 <kahiru> hey, i was playing openttd (about a year old version) and everything was great and dandy. today i upgraded to 1.5.1 and the map generator seems broken to me. no matter what i set it generates awful lot of water everywhere
19:56:38 <Alberth> set the water level to custom, and some very low amount?
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20:01:28 <kahiru> and also generating arctic climate map gives me a popup that there was no place for a forrest and that i should tweak my map generating parameters, but nothing seems to work. any ideas?
20:01:28 <frosch123> there is a fs task about very smooth and very flat land generating lots of water
20:01:29 <Alberth> afaik "very low" is still a lot
20:01:51 <frosch123> kahiru: forests only appear above snow line
20:02:16 <kahiru> thanks, didnt know that
20:02:18 <Alberth> in arctic climate, at least :)
20:54:02 <andythenorth> dunno why I feel the need to be mean to the pipelines guy
20:54:16 <andythenorth> I just suspect he’s a douche
21:00:27 <andythenorth> which is better?
21:00:45 <andythenorth> 1. black tankers for oil, company colour for petrochemicals, determined by vehicle refit
21:01:04 <andythenorth> 2. randomised black / cc on build, if you want a train all one colour, you have to build and delete vehicles until you get the effect you want
21:06:24 <Sylf> On the topic of lots of water, if you combine Flat terrain and any variety distribution, it leads to lots of water. At least that's been my experience
21:07:20 <andythenorth> rebuild-until-desired-color is boring
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21:24:28 <andythenorth> oil, petrol, chemicals
21:24:42 <andythenorth> white ones are food tankers, a different vehicle type
21:33:27 <Alberth> you're polishing them every day :)
21:34:02 <Alberth> I expected the oil one to be darker
21:34:35 <Alberth> maybe in the game they are different?
21:34:47 <Alberth> the grey walk area seems to be in the way here
21:43:58 <andythenorth> the oil one should probably be darker
22:08:46 <Alberth> better, more distinct from the others
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23:15:50 <jottyfan> got an error on building game script - what does that mean / how can I solve it?
23:15:53 <jottyfan> python3 check_lang_compatibility.py lang/english.txt info.nut
23:15:53 <jottyfan> ** Comparing file lang/english.txt, current version and at revision bf1430b223d5df73a0c6ba9c996594a77d497cf1 **
23:15:53 <jottyfan> Compatibility of language files failed.
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