IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-06-07
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00:41:22 *** User_7366273 has joined #openttd
00:41:46 <User_7366273> how do i resolve the "VERSION MISMATCH" problem?
00:42:06 <User_7366273> every time i download a new version of open ttd, it says to uninstal/reinstall so i am using the lates version.
00:43:45 <User_7366273> i stand corrected
01:02:20 <glx> use the same version as the server
01:02:34 <glx> it may not be the latest version
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07:41:12 * andythenorth has been taking advantage of FIRS compiling in 5s ^
07:41:29 <andythenorth> more layouts for Oil Refinery
07:42:18 <Alberth> keeping tanks together and processing together
07:43:17 <andythenorth> seems to be how it’s done
07:44:01 <Alberth> it could use a little more variation perhaps, the 'office' sort of disappears with the big buildings
07:44:45 <Alberth> perhaps some open space?
07:47:10 <andythenorth> I wondered about some empty tile
07:47:21 <andythenorth> I like the manic intensity
07:47:56 <Alberth> then don't touch it any more :)
07:49:22 <Alberth> you could have pipes at the same level as the top of the tanks, so people can walk under it
07:51:20 * andythenorth will try it in a game or so, then decide
07:51:30 <andythenorth> there are interesting pipe shapes that could be used
07:52:24 <Alberth> it's all a bit vertical to me, something horizontal-ish would break that
07:56:32 <Alberth> maybe a group of different size tanks?
08:04:31 <andythenorth> there are probably pieces in DWE station tiles
08:04:41 <andythenorth> or there are some oil station parts in ISR
08:08:44 <Alberth> doing a little shopping :)
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09:01:57 <andythenorth> forum suggestion to add silos
09:02:11 <andythenorth> also the windmill version is one tile
09:02:26 <andythenorth> should I add a granary building?
09:03:01 <andythenorth> or even two windmills together?
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09:17:56 <Alberth> second picture is clearly not good for the mill
09:18:22 <Alberth> the building takes away all the wind of the mill
09:18:56 <Alberth> like the idea of the building at a distance
09:19:42 <Alberth> two windmills seems a bit too much to me
09:22:44 <Alberth> perhaps it's just me,I am used to windmills as single building in the middle of nowhere
09:22:55 <Alberth> but those are watermills, pumping water
09:25:57 <andythenorth> I’ll draw a granary and then decide how many windmills
09:27:45 <Alberth> sounds like the right order of deciding to me :)
09:29:44 <Alberth> can't imagine how that must have looked
09:30:02 <Alberth> probably like antenna spam :)
09:31:08 <andythenorth> it’s a restaurant near my office ;P
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09:39:34 <Alberth> :O snowy builders yard, very good looking :)
09:39:59 <Alberth> it looks like a granary alright
09:40:28 <Alberth> perhaps a bit too many decorations :)
09:55:03 <Alberth> interesting doors at the top floor :)
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10:05:13 <Alberth> doesn't look like it to me
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10:05:46 <Alberth> you want a big door if you hoist grain to the second floor
10:07:01 <Alberth> new granary looks pretty, all buildings nicely in the same style
10:07:52 <planetmaker> hm, I see lovely new firs buildings here
10:16:50 <V453000> I think the holes/door should not be 100% black andy
10:17:13 <planetmaker> :) Not sure the hook needs a whole protruding building part. But looks nice this way, too
10:17:39 <andythenorth> I think it looks weird tbh
10:17:42 <planetmaker> I think hook as in wooden means to fasten a rope to lift stuff to the window is totally sufficient
10:17:52 * andythenorth removes the sticking out part
10:21:02 <planetmaker> just a small stick
10:22:00 <V453000> I like sticking out part a lot
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10:44:13 <planetmaker> oh, that looks very nice indeed
10:44:47 <andythenorth> better than a single tile windmill
10:44:52 <andythenorth> I might add some other tile as well
10:45:08 <andythenorth> it bothers me when the vehicle stations are many more tiles than the industry
10:47:17 <Alberth> nice change, makes it a whole new building
10:47:32 <V453000> why does EVERYTHING in blender have to be so stupidly complicated
10:47:38 <V453000> making a camera is rocket science
10:47:45 <andythenorth> rocket science is not very hard
10:47:57 <andythenorth> get a tube, fill with explodey stuff, light one end
10:48:11 <andythenorth> jet engine science, that’s complicated
10:50:11 <andythenorth> V453000: still better than pixels, no?
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10:51:10 <V453000> it always has the 3D usefulness but mfhsdfuo
11:25:56 <andythenorth> water wheel variant of windmill? o_O
11:38:41 <frosch123> andythenorth: make a steampunk version of firs, and make windmills and watermills the default after 2050
11:39:28 <frosch123> you never see industries only available in early years, better make them available again in the future :)
11:41:01 <Alberth> can't you just repeat history, say every 500 years? :)
11:46:24 <andythenorth> civilisation cycle
11:46:38 <andythenorth> who plays 500 years? :P
11:47:25 <Alberth> everybody that plays for a year with a single game? :)
11:48:16 <frosch123> andythenorth: it also solves the daylength problem :p
11:48:34 <frosch123> you have 500 years time to build your network, before running 1st gen steam engines on them :p
11:48:43 <andythenorth> just reset the date
11:49:00 <andythenorth> or run the clock backwards
11:49:12 <andythenorth> “new engine available: slower and weaker than the current one"
11:59:00 <andythenorth> industry fields via new objects? o_O
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13:53:17 <Alberth> hi hi, made more nice buildings?
14:00:03 <frosch123> is there some kind of pretty-printer for json?
14:00:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i would be really surprised if there wasn't
14:01:08 <Alberth> json.dump has an indent option or so
14:02:18 <frosch123> i was hoping for some console tool :p
14:05:25 <Eddi|zuHause> you should probably have specified the context, otherwise everybody is just replying for their favourite scripting language
14:06:25 <frosch123> well, fuck dynamically typed languages
14:06:49 <frosch123> json_pp --json_opt=pretty < la_VA.json | less <- way shorter
14:07:38 <Alberth> rewrite eints in java? :)
14:12:27 <Eddi|zuHause> it says you're missing the acc(usative) case. what's confusing about that?
14:12:46 <Alberth> it's not supposed to be missing :p
14:12:57 <frosch123> @kick Eddi|zuHause enjoy the sun :)
14:12:57 *** Eddi|zuHause was kicked by DorpsGek (enjoy the sun :))
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14:13:31 <Eddi|zuHause> not a lot of sun right now
14:13:56 <frosch123> that's only because i shut the blinds
14:24:27 <frosch123> ah, "case"->"cases"
14:27:45 <frosch123> boom, oom, something is broken :p
14:29:15 <frosch123> btw. why are they so different?
14:29:34 <frosch123> i hoped for some base class, only replacing a few methods for xml/json
14:29:53 <frosch123> but it looks like there is a _json function for every xml function, which is 50% the same
14:30:28 <Alberth> and json{Saver,Loader} doesn't do shit
14:30:44 <Alberth> and Xml{Saver,Loader} isn't much about xml at all
14:31:44 <frosch123> well, for now, this doesn't work
14:31:55 <frosch123> i revert back to xml, so i can test my actual changes
14:36:36 <Alberth> you loaded all openttd languages?
14:36:52 <frosch123> yes, i uploaded all, exit eints, and tried to restart
14:56:10 <andythenorth> I don’t like small industry layouts
14:57:09 <supermop> ugh i just lost hours to this reddit server game
14:57:31 <Alberth> huts don't really fit the other buildings
14:57:46 <Alberth> supermop: good, openttd is working :)
14:58:24 <andythenorth> I can change the hut style
14:58:26 <supermop> how about you take over my company Alberth so i can make a late dinner?
14:58:51 <Alberth> sorry, I have other games to play
15:11:15 <frosch123> remove the language table from lang_sync and get it from eints
15:11:31 <frosch123> and make lang_sync use the isocode as key for languages, instead of the grflangid
15:13:41 <frosch123> oi, the example is wrong :p
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15:21:39 <Alberth> unstable addition needs manual update
15:22:32 <frosch123> you mean the language definition?
15:23:10 <Alberth> ok, patch queue seems fine
15:23:58 <frosch123> oh, you meant "the manual" :o
15:25:38 <andythenorth> looks like a monastery? o_O
15:25:51 * andythenorth wonders about just one tile of huts
15:26:58 <frosch123> remove the southern house and make it just a dirt tile?
15:27:23 <frosch123> or possibly the western tile
15:28:03 <frosch123> well, you cannot put a heqs vehicle there :p
15:28:07 * andythenorth wonders about 2x2 with a tile missing
15:29:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you can just make a fenced grass tile.
15:30:24 <Alberth> move the small houses one tile to NW ?
15:30:31 <andythenorth> maybe some baseset trees? o_O
15:31:02 <andythenorth> something company colour?
15:31:02 <frosch123> no, trees are weird
15:31:19 <frosch123> esp. if the normal trees are invisible
15:31:26 <Eddi|zuHause> you really don't want trees near a windmill... they have a tendency to block the wind.
15:31:39 <frosch123> some vehicles would be nice, but an empty tile also works, but maybe try it on the west side instead of south
15:32:08 <andythenorth> cart, steam tractor with trailer
15:32:11 <andythenorth> existing arable farm
15:33:00 <frosch123> the cart could work
15:33:18 <frosch123> but likely not centered on the tile :p
15:33:47 <Alberth> I agree, cart looks better than tractor
15:34:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see how a windmill has need for a tractor
15:34:38 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe a small truck in later years
15:37:39 * andythenorth wonders what version of scrum that guy was doing
15:40:24 <supermop> if anyone wants to mess around with my company on reddit firs server have at it
15:40:38 <supermop> small network of timetabled trains
15:41:03 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody here plays the game.
15:42:33 <andythenorth> nobody does scrum either
15:42:41 <andythenorth> everybody does ‘scrumbut’
15:45:23 <frosch123> i was once on a 3-people team, and we were asked to try this "scrum" thing
15:45:33 <frosch123> then one of the 3 was assigned to some other project
15:45:52 <frosch123> we did not continue to try it with 2 people :p
15:46:45 <frosch123> i would still put the vehicle on the west or east tile :p
15:46:56 <frosch123> but looks good otherwise
15:47:09 <frosch123> on the south tile it is too much exposed, which makes it look empty
15:47:26 <andythenorth> there are limited options for combining windmill + other buildings
15:47:45 <andythenorth> if the blades overlap roof areas of the other buildings, they’re hard to see
15:48:47 <andythenorth> vehicle needs something drawn under it
15:50:06 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if the empty tile is always at the south, it looks not like a variation of the layout at all.
15:50:33 <andythenorth> hmm, let’s try east
15:51:11 <Eddi|zuHause> at least for me, the empty tile trumps every permutation of the other three buildings
15:51:12 <andythenorth> these fast compiles are good eh? o_O
15:52:14 <Eddi|zuHause> that is much better
15:53:19 <Eddi|zuHause> and now randomize the direction of the windmill based on local wind patterns :p
15:53:44 * andythenorth needs a pleasing windmill sound effect :P
15:54:25 <Eddi|zuHause> soomething wood-y?
15:55:22 <Eddi|zuHause> modern wind power plants make a "fwoop" sound whenever a blade passes the pillar
15:57:59 <Eddi|zuHause> dear cat. as adorable as you look sleeping with your feet up, i need this chair for sitting on, and you need to go away now.
15:58:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd have two cats blocking both chairs then.
16:03:36 <frosch123> those silos look a lot more modern than the house
16:05:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the grain silos i know are nowhere near a mill...
16:05:39 <Eddi|zuHause> silos work well as a station building, though.
16:05:54 <Eddi|zuHause> so, i'm also against this change.
16:06:16 <frosch123> flour is also stored in silos
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16:12:03 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: have a flour silo explosion disaster ;)
16:12:49 * andythenorth leaves silos out for now
16:13:59 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: compared to fluor?
16:14:25 <frosch123> i would prefer a flour silo over a fluor silo
16:14:38 <andythenorth> is fluor a cargo? :P
16:14:47 * andythenorth doesn’t have enough cargo slots for it
16:15:26 <andythenorth> we should raise the limit to 127
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17:11:26 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: quite probably :p
17:12:03 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: no, i meant grain dust explosions...
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17:16:29 <frosch123> well, make sure the silo is either full, or very empty
17:24:49 * andythenorth considers playing a game
18:03:01 <andythenorth> Busy Bee no less
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19:05:40 <andythenorth> FIRS secondary processing
19:05:54 <andythenorth> 30 days | 90 days | 365 days
19:07:31 <Alberth> looks ok-ish to me :)
20:04:11 <andythenorth> think it’s harder to change than I hoped
20:07:52 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I pondered about that for FIRS long ago. I didn't find an appropriate solution beyond 1 month. Sadly, I have to say
20:08:07 <andythenorth> the production code switches would need duplicated
20:08:15 <andythenorth> and then switched depending on parameter
20:08:35 <planetmaker> yes... but a floating average is very difficult. You quickly run out of storage
20:09:33 <andythenorth> maybe I just make the production window 60 days as a compromise
20:09:43 <andythenorth> I want to relax the 30 day limit a little
20:09:54 <andythenorth> eh, no, that still means changing all the switch code :P
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20:53:13 <Alberth> ie stored provided supplies up to some max, and slowly eat it
20:53:26 <Alberth> if 0, go back to original production
21:01:52 <V453000> yay blender rendering set up :D
21:01:58 <V453000> only took 120379 hours
21:02:15 <Alberth> @calc 120379 / 24 / 365
21:02:15 <DorpsGek> Alberth: 13.7418949772
21:05:05 <Alberth> but all blenders are go! great :)
21:09:32 <andythenorth> Alberth: secondary industry not primary ;)
21:10:10 <Alberth> hmm, what is the problem?
21:10:47 <andythenorth> production is combinatorial for most secondary industry
21:10:58 <andythenorth> the ‘window’ is 30 days for delivering multiple cargos
21:12:15 <Alberth> so what happens if I deliver cargo A 5tonnes, and 10 days later cargo B 8 tonnes?
21:12:45 <andythenorth> you get relatively more production from cargo B compared to the case where cargo A hadn’t been delivered
21:15:18 <Alberth> so the problem is that window?
21:18:37 <andythenorth> actually I might have found it
21:19:35 <andythenorth> just replace that with a parameter, done
21:20:26 <Alberth> another problem solved :)
21:20:41 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd
21:23:42 <andythenorth> there will be more ;)
21:24:29 <jottyfan> would like to understand the source code part of subsidies rejecting cargodist controlled cargo types, but cannot find that in wiki doc - and sources seem to be not that well documented... can anyone give me a little introduction please?
21:27:04 <frosch123> it's in economy.cpp
21:27:24 <frosch123> and they are disabled because cdist might not route the cargo the way the subsidy requires it to go
21:28:46 <frosch123> nvm. it's actually in subsidy.cpp: SubsidyMonthlyLoop()
21:30:38 <jottyfan> ok, I have a look...
21:33:02 <jottyfan> found that function, but cannot find the check itself that disables the subsidy
21:33:24 <Alberth> find the commit, and look what changed?
21:33:48 <jottyfan> but I don't know when the change happened
21:33:51 <frosch123> jottyfan: settings_game.linkgraph.distribution*
21:33:53 <jottyfan> seems to be years old
21:34:29 <frosch123> _settings_game.linkgraph.GetDistributionType
21:34:32 <andythenorth> hmm this game is fun
21:34:58 <DorpsGek> Alberth: Commit by fonsinchen :: r25882 trunk/src/subsidy.cpp (2013-10-19 13:17:29 +0200 )
21:34:59 <DorpsGek> Alberth: -Change [FS#5766]: Don't offer subsidies for auto-distributed cargo.
21:35:20 <Alberth> you can search commit log messages too :)
21:35:59 <Alberth> or look at the commits that tocued the subsidy file
21:36:56 <jottyfan> I was looking at the history of subsidy.cpp, but I just have missed that one...
21:37:40 <jottyfan> so back to the question: the check to quit the subsidy is _settings_game.linkgraph.distribution_pax != DT_MANUAL
21:37:53 <jottyfan> plus other checks != DT_MANUAL?
21:38:14 <frosch123> well, and GetDistributionType
21:38:31 <frosch123> the other ones are only pre-tests whether there is *any* cargo which is not distributed
21:41:18 <Alberth> what are you aiming to do?
21:41:23 <jottyfan> ok, thanks, that helped me a lot
21:41:39 <jottyfan> I just like to remove these checks locally and find out what happens
21:41:58 <frosch123> you should read fs#5766 about that :)
21:41:58 <jottyfan> I wonder why cargo dist should not accept subsidies
21:42:25 <Alberth> in short, cdist has no clue about subsidies
21:42:38 <DorpsGek> frosch123: Temporary Offline
21:43:46 <jottyfan> yes, I've read this article also
21:44:05 <jottyfan> but I wonder why a subsidy should not only work on direct routes
21:44:26 <jottyfan> if it doesn't work on routes from a to c over b, I'd accept that
21:45:17 <Alberth> it's more that a subsidy from a to c doesn't work for a - c - b passengers
21:45:48 <jottyfan> so if passengers from a to c get a subsidy, but passengers from a to b not, who cares?
21:46:37 <frosch123> different people, different opinions :)
21:46:45 <Alberth> what about z - a - c - b from z to c ?
21:46:47 <jottyfan> therefore, I can build my own trunc
21:47:08 <jottyfan> ok, let's assume I have a cargodist good passengers
21:47:17 <jottyfan> and have a network a - b - c - d
21:47:24 <jottyfan> and get a subsidy from a to c
21:47:50 <jottyfan> then, only passengers entering on a and quitting on c should get a bonus
21:48:10 <jottyfan> passengers from b to c not, and passengers from a to d also not
21:49:00 <Alberth> well the reporter of FS#5766 had a different meaning
21:49:38 <jottyfan> but at all, I'd also accept if that route would not work for that subsidy and only accept a train from a to c
21:50:45 <jottyfan> maybe, we've got two kinds of subsidies
21:51:07 <Alberth> who says there are only 2 solutions?
21:51:33 <jottyfan> but at least we have two
21:51:36 <Alberth> it needs a general solution that makes sense for everybody
21:51:54 <Alberth> we couldn't find one, and disabled subsidies
21:52:33 <jottyfan> but - I really like cargodist, I think this is one of the best improvements compared to ttdx, but missing subsidies is a big step backwards
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21:53:12 <jottyfan> why not let the player choose if he wants subsidies on cargodist enabled?
21:53:37 <Alberth> why do you want subsidies?
21:53:40 <planetmaker> offering an option which potentially won't work *will* result rightfully in complaints and bug reports
21:53:59 <planetmaker> thus shipping something which is broken by design is not a good solution
21:54:10 <Alberth> if it's only for making the connection, you may want to try busy bee instead
21:54:24 <planetmaker> I would recommend to people like you to use a game script to give you some goals for transport and stuff
21:54:53 <Alberth> or hack a better one :)
21:55:18 <planetmaker> or extent busy bee :)
21:55:35 <Alberth> hmm, not sure how much room there is in BB
21:56:01 <Alberth> maybe it got cornered too much by being non-competitive
21:56:35 <Alberth> BC! (bee competition)
21:56:38 <frosch123> noone forked busybee, despite both authors constantly requesting it :p
21:56:51 <planetmaker> bee -> busy bee -> capitalism bee -> burnout bee :P
21:56:57 <Alberth> bummer, and that after we decided to use eints :(
21:57:39 <frosch123> he, indeed, it took a hell of effort of the eints devs to convince the busybee devs
21:58:24 <frosch123> jottyfan: sorry about the in-jokes btw :)
21:58:43 <jottyfan> had a phone call and need to understand the chat history
21:59:32 <Alberth> a script giving you things to do
22:00:02 <jottyfan> this could replace subsidies?
22:00:33 <Alberth> well, it depends on how you see subsidies
22:00:44 <frosch123> jottyfan: the hope is in general to move disputed things to scripts/newgrfs, so people can have whatever they want
22:00:45 <Alberth> BB doesn't give anything
22:01:00 <jottyfan> let me call subsidies jobs with a reward
22:01:21 <jottyfan> so if I can have goals without in game subsidies, that would be fine to me
22:01:29 <Alberth> the only reward it gives is a message "you won a goal"
22:01:34 <jottyfan> the reward could be a sum of cash
22:01:56 <Alberth> so you have this zillion dollar company, and you need more?
22:02:22 <jottyfan> I have a credit and get a reward to get money
22:02:55 <Alberth> in that case, BB wont' work
22:03:17 <jottyfan> because of the reward?
22:03:23 <frosch123> but you can also fork BB and add money rewards :)
22:03:55 <jottyfan> I'll have a look, thanks for the hint!
22:04:15 <Alberth> yw, and publish it so we can play it too :)
22:29:20 <andythenorth> will nmlc actually process #includes?
22:29:30 <andythenorth> it seems to understand them somewhat when reporting errors
22:46:01 <frosch123> it processes the #line which are output by the preprocessor
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23:36:42 <George> The NFO file was generated automatically from NML file
23:37:24 <George> How to find coresponding line in NML for the NFO warning/error string?
continue to next day ⏵
