IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-05-21
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06:33:52 <solatis> is the performance impact of CargoDist something I should be worrying about? will it scale with large networks on my moderate laptop?
06:49:53 <kamnet> I've never had a problem with CargoDist, been playing it for years.
06:51:49 <kamnet> I think the main issue people run into is not quite knowing how to handle the passenger and mail generation. They're so used to being able to shift it wherever they want and have trouble adapting to the idea that your networks are now going to be more greaetly shaped by where the cargo wants to go.
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07:10:49 <Flygon> kamnet: It's also a nightmare for eGTVRS Tram/Buses before 1950 :P
07:11:18 <kamnet> In what way? I didn't have a problem with them in my "Birth of an Empire" scenario.
07:11:27 * Supercheese gets some more playtime in
07:11:35 * Supercheese starts thinking of cool new newgrf features
07:11:47 * Supercheese ends up spending more time developing them
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07:12:05 <Supercheese> there's a fellow who knows how I feel
07:16:18 <solatis> kamnet: thats only with the sync setting eh, async doesn't behave like that ?
07:18:03 <kamnet> I'm with you there Supercheese. I've got a half-dozen projects in various states because I keep getting distracted. I've not played a good round in months now!
07:19:06 <kamnet> solatis: I don't know, I've never ran pax/mail on asynchronous.
07:19:29 <solatis> yeah it doesn't really make sense to run them async
07:20:40 <solatis> ok, this might sound like a silly question, but i'm a little bit new about the terminology that is being used wrt openttd
07:20:57 <solatis> that talks about "supply order"
07:21:22 <solatis> what is a supply order, an order that brings from mine/farm to feeder station ?
07:26:38 <Flygon> kamnet: Different playstyles?
07:26:45 <Flygon> I found it easier to just use railcars as Trams xD
07:32:35 <kamnet> solatis: supplies are production amplifiers to industries. If you only bring base cargoes to an industry (for example, livestock to the stock yard) you will get so much cargo in return. If you also supply manufacturing supplies, then it will increase the cargo production as long as you keep supplying at least a certain amount of supplies.
07:32:47 <andythenorth> urgh, that wiki page
07:32:54 <andythenorth> one day, someone will fix it
07:32:58 <andythenorth> maybe even me :(
07:33:42 <andythenorth> FIRS was created to be fun
07:33:46 <andythenorth> but somehow it failed
07:34:00 <solatis> kamnet: right, but in this context 'supply order' means something to describe a mechanism that spreads the delivery
07:34:09 <solatis> ECS doesn't seem to work properly for me
07:34:23 <solatis> i don't have any place that accepts Food for some reason
07:34:39 <solatis> it's supposed to be houses, but no city accepts food
07:34:51 <solatis> i think i have some conflicting plugins or something..
07:35:03 <solatis> anyway, i'm having fun with FIRS
07:36:00 <andythenorth> are you playing the ‘Full FIRS’ economy?
07:36:02 <kamnet> solatis: That's a case where the page is badly out of date. As Andy has explained before, the supply chain works differently now and nobody's updated the OpenTTD wiki to update it. You can still set up a distribution chain if you wish, but really if you're playing with CargoDist on then it's not going to matter much. You deliver whatever cargo to wherever it needs to go.
07:36:31 <solatis> yeah that's exactly the reason i was looking into CargoDist
07:36:42 <andythenorth> CargoDist has no idea where the cargo needs to go
07:36:47 <andythenorth> it goes wherever you deliver it
07:37:09 <andythenorth> and it can stumble with supplies
07:37:10 <solatis> you still need to set up delivery destinations, CargoDist just distributes it correctly ?
07:37:48 <andythenorth> ‘mostly correctly’ would be more accurate :)
07:38:18 <solatis> what do you mean with 'Full FIRS' economy btw? are there any additional plugins i'm unaware of?
07:38:31 <andythenorth> it’s a parameter option when you add the newgrf at game start
07:39:19 <solatis> i'm playing with Economy: FIRS
07:39:44 <andythenorth> yeah that’s the big one
07:41:21 <solatis> yeah, and map size 2048x2048 and a lot of spare time :)
07:41:31 * kamnet is distraccted by eurovision replay
07:42:47 <andythenorth> kamnet: you could improve that FIRS wiki page o_O
07:43:11 <kamnet> Someody would be mad at me for defacement
07:47:06 <andythenorth> removing bad information is defacement?
07:47:15 <andythenorth> we should apply wikipedia rules
07:47:20 <andythenorth> everything must be cited
07:47:25 <kamnet> Without replacing it with better information, yes.
07:48:52 <kamnet> Well hell then noobody would update the wiki and it would be useless altogether
07:49:20 <andythenorth> cargo flow for 0.5.3 :P
07:49:42 <andythenorth> those were the days :P
07:50:29 <V453000> FIRS Is Royally Screwed
07:51:25 <kamnet> FIRS Industries Really Suck.
07:52:02 * andythenorth has an unprintable de-acronym
07:52:47 <andythenorth> better if you imagine it
08:18:21 * kamnet imagines FIRS as one gaping, seeping hole one must fill time and time again.
08:22:45 <Flygon> FIRS can go yiff in hell? :B
08:33:03 <kamnet> So I went 7/10 in my Eurovision picks. Not bad for my rookie go, I'd say.
08:43:27 <andythenorth> it is the hour of day when I speak to Brisbane
08:43:44 <andythenorth> it is odd that of all the places in all the world
08:43:52 <Pikka> be sure to remark on how foggy it was this morning
08:44:04 <andythenorth> Brisbane is the one where I might be talking to 2 or 3 different people
08:44:10 <andythenorth> none of who know each other
08:44:33 <andythenorth> also first 4 letters are same as Bristol
08:45:18 <andythenorth> Pikka how are you going to use 128 industries then? o_O
08:45:46 <Pikka> I'm going to make 100 different coal mine industries, probably.
08:46:46 <andythenorth> frosch might be considering increasing cargo limit also
08:46:57 <andythenorth> then you can have more GEAR cargos
08:47:18 <andythenorth> dunno after that
08:49:41 <kamnet> Top gear? No, that's a scratch now, huh?
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09:04:15 * Supercheese is watching Top Gear right now
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09:51:29 <kamnet> It goes okay Supermop. How about yourself?
09:53:31 <supermop> went walking around town, found an NZ shop selling neoprene hooded sweatshirts
09:53:45 <supermop> gould go for one of those about now
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10:42:44 <kamnet> I've never been high on hoodies.
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11:27:45 <Eddi|zuHause> 've never been high on anything
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12:59:39 <andythenorth> anyone understand industry animation?
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13:12:45 <solatis> CargoDist can be used to automagically transport supply cargo to mines from a feeder station ?
13:13:50 <solatis> as in, i have several coal mines next to each other, feeding a station using several trucks
13:15:06 <solatis> if i add a few trucks to load engineering supplies from this feeder station and travel via the coal mines, will CargoDist automatically transfer some ES to this eeder station ?
13:16:06 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, if you have also a vehicle that brings supplies there
13:16:37 <solatis> do i have to manually set a vehicle to 'transfer' there ?
13:16:45 <Eddi|zuHause> mind you, that the distribution of supplies might not be very even
13:16:53 <Eddi|zuHause> no, you don't have to use "transfer"
13:17:00 <solatis> that answers my question
13:17:52 <solatis> i guess it can take a while before the graph with all the links is built
13:18:01 <andythenorth> solatis: at the drop-off stations, always set ‘unload and leave empty’
13:18:12 <andythenorth> otherwise you can accidentally bridge linkgraphs
13:18:33 <andythenorth> also cdist copes very badly if you try to distribute to more than about 4 destinations from one supply source
13:20:14 * andythenorth wonders if cdist in trunk tries to measure capacity or not
13:20:26 <andythenorth> can’t remember where fonso got to with some patches
13:22:14 <Eddi|zuHause> afaik, cargodist drops station rating at the source station, if cargo piles up at intermediate stations
13:22:36 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise, i'm not sure what you mean when saying "capacity"
13:28:29 <andythenorth> (iirc) fonso had a set of patches that attempted to measure actual capacity (throughput) empirically
13:28:50 <andythenorth> and assign cargo in proportion to that
13:28:56 <andythenorth> unless that’s just vanilla cdist
13:29:35 * andythenorth doesn’t understand the implementation
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13:42:39 <Eddi|zuHause> afair such concepts never quite worked out
13:50:22 <andythenorth> the patches I tested ‘worked’, but didn’t make much difference to gameplay
13:50:29 <andythenorth> fonso didn’t merge them
13:51:16 <andythenorth> in recent games, I find cdist can distribute FIRS supplies ok from one source node directly to 3 or 4 destination nodes
13:51:44 <andythenorth> beyond that the behaviour degrades rapidly
13:52:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd suggest making 2 stations at the source, one for close by destinations, and one for far away destinations
13:52:32 <andythenorth> plausible solution
13:52:51 <Eddi|zuHause> and make sure that the two networks never connect
13:53:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that way, you reduce the impact of distance on demand
13:53:49 <andythenorth> I tend to have that turned down anyway
13:54:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with that setting is that it's global for all cargos
13:54:24 <Eddi|zuHause> where you might want to have different settings for passengers, mail and goods
13:54:29 <andythenorth> we have previously discussed options for ‘solving’ that
13:54:37 <andythenorth> dunno if we agreed what we were solving yet :)
13:55:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i think we only ever agreed that it's impossible to have one setting per cargo :p
13:59:18 <andythenorth> and there was some reason we didn’t want to delegate it to newgrf? (frosch iirc suggested that)
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14:07:00 <solatis> andythenorth: when you say "from one supply source to multiple others", you mean, for example, one source of engineering supplies to 4 end destinations, or do you mean 4 'hubs' (that might in fact distribute the cargo to multiple smaller destinations, by truck for example)
14:08:15 <solatis> i assume that you mean that cdist isn't able to distribute evenly amongst a lot of destinations ?
14:09:32 <solatis> (as in, it isn't as smooth as one would hope for)
14:10:42 <andythenorth> I find that one source to > 4 end destinations works poorly
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14:14:07 <Eddi|zuHause> solatis: it's meant as 4 industries that accept the cargo, not hub stations.
14:14:54 <Eddi|zuHause> solatis: but i'd say that you can have safely more destinations, when the destinations are all about the same distance from the source
14:16:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the larger the difference of these distances, the more uneven the distribution gets
14:18:55 <solatis> so it's better to keep the graphs separated
14:19:11 <solatis> e.g. when you have mulitple sources, build multiple graphs with source / endpoints
14:19:25 <solatis> (one source and mulitple destinations)
14:20:42 <Eddi|zuHause> one industry can have up to two separate source stations
14:21:28 <Eddi|zuHause> that was meant to be you and a competitor, but you can also have two stations by yourself
14:25:54 <solatis> ah that is good to know
14:26:27 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have 3 stations, the 3rd one (ordered by station rating) will get no cargo at all
14:26:31 <solatis> so multiple source <-> destination graphs can even share the same tracks, as long as they don't share stations
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15:19:46 <andythenorth> if FIRS uses spriteset(animation_frame) everywhere
15:20:31 <andythenorth> that would explain why my attempts at animation control fail
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17:40:30 <Alberth> time to look for dinner
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19:57:26 <frosch123> i found a reason to not support more than 32 cargos :)
19:57:35 <frosch123> it prevents a full full firs
20:01:22 <andythenorth> frosch123: I am +1
20:01:35 <andythenorth> although I still like the idea of 32 per newgrf :P
20:02:22 <peter1138> I think I had a patch for more than 32...
20:02:29 <peter1138> Who knows though...
20:05:14 * andythenorth boggles at animation
20:05:14 <frosch123> anyone changed anything wrt. engine previews lately?
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20:07:39 <andythenorth> when using sprite numbers I can do things like this
20:07:40 <andythenorth> 2174 + (((animation_frame % 11) < 6) ? (animation_frame % 11) : 10 - (animation_frame % 11))
20:07:45 <andythenorth> but with spritesets, not so much
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20:10:08 <frosch123> you can do that with sprites within a spriteset
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20:11:55 <andythenorth> so currently, for ~every spriteset, FIRS has something like
20:11:56 <andythenorth> sprite: coal_mine_spriteset_1a_0(1* animation_frame);
20:12:02 <andythenorth> where 1 might vary
20:12:06 <andythenorth> this is templated
20:12:32 * andythenorth needs to change that
20:13:34 * andythenorth doesn’t really understand animation
20:13:49 <andythenorth> if I stop the animation with anim_control cb, the animation_frame stops incrementing?
20:20:03 <V453000> it happens all the time to all clients :(
20:20:40 <V453000> quite honestly I am also very curious wtf is the cause :D
20:21:50 <frosch123> ah, found my mistake
20:22:56 <frosch123> i have to rediscover desync log replaying every time :)
20:23:54 <frosch123> i failed to inject the commands, so i compared the saved replay with one noone playing :)
20:26:46 <frosch123> ah, i even compared it with a paused one
20:26:54 <frosch123> i always wondered why replay was wo fast :p
20:27:54 <V453000> what is replay? a series of savegames?
20:28:40 <frosch123> you gave me a start-savegame and a log of player actions
20:28:50 <frosch123> you also gave me a series of savegames from the original server
20:29:07 <V453000> idk what the files include :P
20:29:14 <frosch123> i replay the player actions on the start-savegame, and check whether it result sin the same as the original savegames
20:29:21 <frosch123> V453000: all the chat :p
20:31:37 <V453000> do you have any clues where could it be coming from?
20:31:56 <V453000> the desync not stupid shit I say :P¨
20:32:20 <frosch123> i first have to make sure that i am debugging it correctly :p
20:40:51 <andythenorth> Epic WIN videos on YT are so much better than Epic FAIL :P
20:41:47 <V453000> havent ever seen such a thing
20:41:53 <V453000> who want to see someone succeed!
20:42:15 <frosch123> succeed with super hexagon?
20:42:26 <V453000> succeed with anything
20:42:32 <V453000> we humans want to see others fail
20:42:46 <frosch123> yup, that's why we add desyncs
20:43:17 <andythenorth> V453000: you are humans? :o
20:43:24 <andythenorth> news to andythenorth
20:43:46 <andythenorth> my compile is FAIL :(
20:43:52 <andythenorth> but I didn’t notice, busy watching YT
20:43:56 * andythenorth should get two screens
20:49:38 <frosch123> industry builder data differs
20:49:49 <frosch123> likely something i broke with more industries :)
20:50:06 <V453000> I thought that could have caused some wtf :D
20:50:09 <Eddi|zuHause> did it pop out a stick with a flag that says "bang!" when triggered?
20:50:28 <V453000> can we blame andythenorth for that?
20:51:11 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: killing does not create core dumps
20:51:15 <frosch123> you need to abort stuff
20:51:56 <Eddi|zuHause> how is a dead body not a cor(ps)e dump?
20:51:59 <frosch123> ah, i misread albert's code
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20:56:18 <V453000> awesome :) I love you
20:59:15 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27291 trunk/src/saveload/industry_sl.cpp (2015-05-21 20:59:11 +0200 )
20:59:16 <DorpsGek> -Fix (r27278) [FS#6303]: Some savegame data was discarded again during loading.
21:00:13 <V453000> I assume it will be available tomorrow evening?
21:00:34 <frosch123> if tb does not break the farm till then :)
21:01:06 <V453000> TrueBrain: please do not break the farm till then :P
21:02:56 <andythenorth> the tile animation control, is it actually designed?
21:03:00 <andythenorth> or did it just grow? o_O
21:03:08 * andythenorth is unclear how it is intended to be used
21:03:42 <frosch123> it's just a decision what frame to display next
21:03:56 <frosch123> either triggered periodically or by some event
21:04:01 <andythenorth> are start and stop just convenience methods?
21:04:36 <frosch123> i start/stop the periodic trigger
21:05:11 <andythenorth> so e.g. FIRS coal mine has 3 sprites which loop
21:05:17 <andythenorth> for the winding wheel animation
21:05:34 <andythenorth> it needs to last n frames, then stop, then restart
21:05:44 <frosch123> what causes it to restart?
21:06:04 <andythenorth> haven’t decided yet
21:06:18 <andythenorth> either a trigger, or it just gets to the end of the loop
21:06:28 <andythenorth> not sure what is best
21:06:57 <andythenorth> probably just gets to the end of the loop
21:07:03 <frosch123> well, if it stops then animation control triggers STOP at frame N
21:07:20 <frosch123> if it never stops then animation control continues with frame 0 after frame N
21:07:47 <frosch123> if it stops, and some event start it, that event trigger checks whether it is already running, and if not, starts it from frame 0
21:09:05 <andythenorth> and in all cases I need a switch to choose which actual sprite to play from the spriteset
21:09:23 * andythenorth thinking out loud, sorry :P
21:09:57 <andythenorth> how do I loop over 3 frames for say, 250 frames?
21:10:20 <andythenorth> could use permanent register I suppose
21:10:44 <andythenorth> increment a counter
21:10:48 <frosch123> you likely want to make it devideable by 3 :p
21:11:48 <andythenorth> but when I tried this, I get 3 frames of sprite, then a question mark
21:11:57 <andythenorth> I know why it didn’t work
21:12:03 <andythenorth> I just don’t know which is the intended route
21:12:08 <andythenorth> I suspect there isn’t one
21:12:40 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: LOAD(blah)%3 for 3-loops
21:12:57 <andythenorth> the spriteset has 3 sprites
21:13:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: this cycles the numbers 0,1,2
21:13:38 <Eddi|zuHause> as long as blah increases by 1 in each step
21:13:55 <andythenorth> so the correct route is to do that in a switch
21:15:04 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how would that stop animating after n frames?
21:15:12 <andythenorth> the animation for coal mine is intermittent
21:15:37 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you stop when you stop incrementing blah
21:16:07 <frosch123> just call "blah" "animation_frame"
21:16:37 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the code that reads blah doesn't need to know whether blah is currently in stopped or incrementing mode
21:16:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it works either way
21:17:27 <andythenorth> so for an intermittent animation with a regular cycle, start / stop is irrelevant
21:17:35 <andythenorth> just control which sprite to show per frame
21:21:47 <Eddi|zuHause> you start/stop in a different piece of code
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21:31:08 <andythenorth> ok, so with max length 253, I see the point of start / stop :P
21:34:57 <andythenorth> ha ha there’s ‘anim_next_frame’ as well
21:35:01 <andythenorth> that’s what confuses me :D
21:35:09 <andythenorth> multiple ways to achieve same result
21:35:15 <andythenorth> that’s relatively uncommon for newgrf spec
21:37:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think anim_next_frame is for when you want to do weird loops like "loop 3-9 this month, loop 10-30 next month"
21:37:39 <frosch123> it's the periodic trigger
21:37:52 <andythenorth> nah anim_control is the periodic trigger isn’t it?
21:37:56 <frosch123> you use it to stop the animation after 246 frames
21:38:02 <frosch123> instead of making it loop
21:38:05 <andythenorth> anim_next_frame is the ‘every frame’ check
21:38:39 <andythenorth> anim_next_frame seems nearly totally redundant to me
21:38:53 <andythenorth> I guess it saves CPU time
21:39:09 <frosch123> it's the most important one for you 3 frames animation :p
21:39:18 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, so for a 3-9 loop you do "if n==9: n=3; else: n=n+1"
21:39:44 <andythenorth> just do it in the graphics chain
21:39:45 <Eddi|zuHause> and to stop the animation you do "n=n"
21:40:38 <andythenorth> STORE_TEMP((animation_frame > 63 ? 1 : (animation_frame % 3))
21:40:54 <andythenorth> ^^ just do that in the graphics block
21:41:08 <andythenorth> or do I miss something?
21:41:32 <frosch123> you are wasting 3/4 cpu time :) nothing else
21:41:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes. this makes an animation for 64 ticks, then stops for 196 ticks, then animates for 64 ticks, ...
21:43:16 <andythenorth> if I wanted ‘play once’ then anim_next_frame would be needed
21:43:28 <andythenorth> or I set no-loop on the animation
21:44:06 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you probably want to fire a no-loop animation at random points
21:44:19 <andythenorth> periodic tile loop?
21:44:40 <andythenorth> seems most appropriate
21:44:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i would have expected there to be a random animation start callback
21:45:09 <andythenorth> can be done with the tile random bits
21:45:30 <frosch123> the animation callbacks all have random bits
21:45:51 <frosch123> you can randomise every frame :p
21:46:07 <Eddi|zuHause> like in extra_callback_info1?
21:52:34 * andythenorth wonders if ternary op can be stacked
21:52:59 <andythenorth> condition1 ? result1 : (condition2 ? result2 : result3)
21:58:56 * andythenorth has made a boo-boo
21:59:08 <andythenorth> graphics chain is per industry currently, not per tile
21:59:13 <andythenorth> but animation rules are per tile
21:59:29 <andythenorth> doing it in the graphics chain is, in this case, a Terrible Idea
21:59:37 <andythenorth> specifically a FIRS issue :P
22:01:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what that means
22:03:40 <andythenorth> FIRS defines multiple tiles for some industries
22:03:48 <andythenorth> with different animation rules
22:04:15 <andythenorth> but the graphics chain has no way currently to provide a switch with per-tile rules
22:04:19 <andythenorth> because reasons :P
22:04:46 <frosch123> don't start animation for all tiles
22:04:52 <frosch123> that would be even more cpu waste
22:05:06 <andythenorth> oh FIRS did that ages ago I think :)
22:05:21 <andythenorth> literally for years iirc
22:05:33 <frosch123> i should finnish that callback profiler :p
22:05:36 * andythenorth wonders about the carbon impact of FIRS
22:06:52 * andythenorth back to anim_next_frame then :P
22:11:30 <andythenorth> yes every FIRS industry tile has animation_info set
22:11:56 <andythenorth> and in many cases the value is 1 :P
22:28:45 <andythenorth> frosch123: you think animation makes much difference? o_O
22:29:48 <frosch123> problem is when it also causes work for unserviced industries
22:29:55 <frosch123> i.e. for douchebags playing on 4kx4k maps
22:30:14 <frosch123> thousands of animated tiles on an empty map
22:31:05 <frosch123> the tileloop only runs every 2.5 seconds
22:31:17 <frosch123> your animation runs every 0.1 seconds?
23:29:02 *** DarkenMoon has joined #openttd
23:30:04 * andythenorth is such a bad programmer :P
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