IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-04-26
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01:38:57 <kamnet> Tornadoes are on the way.
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04:17:42 <ST2> Alberth born in the early 40's but he never shared the youth potion with us ^^
04:24:34 <Odin> Huh. Updated to NARS 2.5, the issues I was having with it are gone
04:25:01 <Odin> Right now I've got mainline freight handled by Challengers in 14 length trains, and express passenger pulled by 4-4-4-4 duplexes also at 14 length
04:25:04 <Odin> and all trains profitable
04:29:22 <Odin> And now that I think about it, that 4-4-4-4 duplex in NARS is actually the PRR T1, a rigid-frame duplex locomotive prone to violent wheelslip even at speed where most steam engines only face wheel slip when starting a heavy load
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04:59:44 <Flygon> Odin: I thought the wheelslip was due to careless drivers?
05:00:21 <Odin> No, even experienced drivers have it happen from time to time
05:00:46 <Odin> Its really not all that different from a burnout in a modern vehicle- you've applied more torque to the driving wheels than they have the friction to transmit
05:01:12 <Odin> But some engines are more likely to have it happen than others due to weight distribution, engine torque and balance, and rail conditions
05:01:41 <Flygon> I thought the wheelslip issues was due to the fact that the two sets of driving wheels would 'desynchronize'?
05:02:13 <Odin> The difference is where a car it will almost always stop when you let off the throttle, some designs of steam engine you can't close the throttle quickly enough, and even after closing it there is a delay period where the pipes are still full of steam- or the boiler has primed and water turning into steam is in the throttle pipe
05:02:34 <Odin> Duplex and Ariticulated engines have no synchronization between the two engines in the designs I've seen at least
05:03:12 <Odin> Whereas each driving set is on a rigid axle- left and right cylinders are always 90 degrees apart to guarantee dead-standstill starting torque
05:03:19 <Flygon> That's why the driver had to keep the sync manually
05:03:44 <Odin> If the engines aren't slipping, whatever sync they had would be more or less preserved throughout the run
05:04:08 <Odin> Usually though one engine would break traction and run away, and on the duplex and articulated engines this was much harder to detect and compensate for
05:04:10 <Flygon> I admit I've never tried to drive a duplex myself, soooooo
05:04:32 <Odin> Whereas a single driver steam engine, you could hear the rapid increase in chuffing as a dead giveaway
05:04:52 <Odin> I've never driven steam myself, I'm just an old fan and have spent a fair bit of time studying the matter
05:05:44 <Odin> Along similar lines, it kinda interests me that locomotives prone to runaway didn't have flyball governors fitted
05:06:09 <Odin> On stationary engines, the flyball governor is used to make sure the engine runs at a constant speed under varable load.
05:06:16 <Flygon> Part of me haas wondered
05:06:28 <Odin> in a locomotive, having such a governor would prevent a runaway from reaching destructive speeds- as it would choke off the engine's steam supply
05:06:29 <Flygon> What'd have happened if we got to the point where we had computer assisted steam locos
05:06:55 <Flygon> As in, no fireman, so it used those spiral things to move through coal (like the H-class here)
05:06:58 <Odin> One BIG advantage of steam currently matched by no other prime mover is complete versaility of fuel
05:07:06 <Flygon> Or just plain burned oil/Diesel (like... a LOT of VR stuff)
05:07:18 <Odin> These days a lot of steam excursion engines are fitted for oil
05:07:27 <Flygon> We converted a LOT of stuff to Oil in the 1940s
05:07:30 <Odin> Simplifies the logistics- the engine burns the same oil used by the diesels whose track it shares
05:07:36 <Flygon> To reduce dependancy on coal we had to import from New South Wales
05:07:40 <Odin> Also because there's a shortage of strong-backed young men willing to shovel coal
05:07:48 <Flygon> It was just plain easier for us to make Oil, and later, Diesel, hahaha
05:08:24 <Odin> Usually only stationary steam and small (4-6-0 or smaller) engines are still hand stoked coal
05:08:46 <Odin> I have heard that the engines equipped with self-stokers still require a fireman to manually shovel coal.
05:09:05 <Odin> The auto-stoker doesn't make a very good fire bed, and while it will keep up steam it isn't good enough when cruising
05:09:12 <Odin> The corners of the firebox have to be filled in by hand
05:11:00 <Odin> Kind of funny though to see the PRR T1 in NARS 2.5 though
05:11:05 <Flygon> The only reason the H220 had an auto-stoker here
05:11:15 <Flygon> Is because, quite simply
05:11:15 <Odin> OpenTTD doesn't implement wheelslip other than as a change in sound effect on a hard start
05:11:27 <Flygon> VR determined that based on experience with the Spirit of Progress
05:11:42 <Flygon> It'd be physically impossible to shovel enough coal into H220's firebox to keep it running correctly
05:12:19 <Odin> How big of an engine is this?
05:12:40 <Flygon> And most powerful from the late 1930s until 1995
05:13:05 <Flygon> It was designed with the intent of hauling passenger trains
05:13:12 <Odin> It looks like a 4-8-4 though, what makes it different
05:13:24 <Flygon> Because by that point VR stopped giving a fuck and wanted their passenger trains as rock metal insane as possible
05:13:40 <Odin> Or they wanted to copy a successful design
05:13:43 <Flygon> Unfortunately, it never did get to be a good passenger loco, due to WWII
05:13:51 <Odin> That is strikingly similar to the American 4-8-4 Northern
05:14:11 <Flygon> H220/Heavy Harry was based on the S-class design. I wouldn't be surprised if it took a lot of notes from the American designs of the time tho
05:15:30 <Odin> UP 844, one of the better known American 4-8-4 engines
05:15:36 <Flygon> Huh, that IS a striking resemblance
05:15:48 <Flygon> I didn't expect to see Elephant ears on an American loco
05:15:52 <Flygon> When was UP 844 designed?
05:16:15 <Flygon> Either there's some convergent evolution going on here
05:16:15 <Odin> Also the only one in the world to have continued working for her original owner without ever being retired
05:16:23 <Eddi|zuHause> <Odin> Simplifies the logistics- the engine burns the same oil used by the diesels whose track it shares <-- that sounds like a myth to me...
05:16:25 <Flygon> Or VR could somehow afford a phone call to the USA <_>
05:16:26 <Odin> Its probably the manufacturers copying each other just like they do today
05:17:06 <Odin> Eddi, it would be interesting if it wasn't
05:17:12 <Eddi|zuHause> typically, oil-fired steam engines used "bunker oil C", which was the stuff that remained at the bottom after refining out other kinds of fuel like diesel
05:17:38 <Eddi|zuHause> until they figured out how to further refine that
05:17:40 <Odin> I would have expected them to run on the same diesel used by the EMD locos in common service, that way they can simply top it off as needed
05:17:52 <Flygon> Oh, that's odd. The S-class wasn't a streamliner for the first 9 years of it's life...
05:17:54 <Odin> Though a loco designed for oil firing probably would specify a grade
05:17:55 <Eddi|zuHause> that, and the oil crisis, made a sudden end to oil powered steam
05:18:09 <Odin> Like I had said though, most of your excursion beasts are oil powered
05:18:20 <Flygon> Odin: Seems like H220 might've been inspired heavily by the UP 844
05:18:24 <Flygon> H220 got churned out in 1941
05:18:28 <Odin> Yeah, it looks like they shared notes at least
05:18:36 <Odin> It is one of the more successful designs
05:18:43 <Flygon> Which definitely sets the right period for "Copying America"
05:18:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: over here, that's usually the other way around. streamliners were built in the late 30s, and after WWII, the streamlining was permanently removed because of maintenance costs
05:19:05 <Flygon> We also tended to copy the USA with regards to Tram designs
05:19:13 <Flygon> Melbourne wanted to use PCC cars, but
05:19:28 <Flygon> We couldn't afford the rights to due to currency conversion problems. Also WWII happened
05:19:54 <Flygon> So we ended up trying to create W-class Trams that imitated some of the PCC's features. eg. extra notches
05:20:08 <Flygon> Granted, 16 different notches is a bit of a far cry from the PCC's 250+ :U
05:20:52 <Flygon> Create a W-class/PCC hybrid in the 1950s
05:20:53 <Odin> Still can't believe I saw a Loram rail grinder on the Norfolk Southern track near my apartment
05:21:06 <Odin> Also I've seen two of the big boys- 4006 and 4012.
05:21:31 <Flygon> It's the fastest recorded Tram in Australia
05:21:45 <Flygon> Hitting 115km/h in a test run
05:21:51 <Eddi|zuHause> trams are not usually built for speed :p
05:22:10 <Flygon> This also meant it has been recorded going faster than suburban EMUs of the day were allowed to go :B
05:22:17 <Flygon> iirc, tho, the regular speed limit was 80km/h
05:22:41 <Flygon> Eddi: No reason not to have a speedy Tram, tho!
05:22:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: test runs are usually made with 110% top speed
05:22:57 <Flygon> 35 is weeelll over 10% of 80km/h :P
05:23:15 <Flygon> I don't know what prevented them going faster
05:23:23 <Odin> Anyone here by chance have pictures of Blue Peter in '92?
05:23:25 <Flygon> Probably the fact that they ran out of track before hitting suburban streets again
05:23:53 <Odin> A wheel slip blew the heads off the engine, supposidly the wheels achieved over 140 MPH
05:24:12 <Odin> No. Blue Peter is one of the British locomotives
05:24:27 <Flygon> Sorry, like I said, not very familiar with non-Victorian rail history x3
05:24:35 <Odin> It had a wheel slip coming into a hill, but the boiler primed and hydrolocked the regulator
05:24:46 <Odin> Cue total runaway with a wide open regulator
05:25:00 <Flygon> (fastest our steam locos officially hit was 160km/h. New South Wales, with the 38xx class series for Sydney-Newcastle runs)
05:25:08 <Odin> The driver tried to throw the reverse to kill it, the pounding of the engine made the reverse spin back and break his arm
05:25:10 <Eddi|zuHause> none of these sentences make any sense
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05:25:29 <Flygon> (unofficially... I reckon Vic and NSW had locos that could go faster, but... there's no real records of this)
05:25:37 <Odin> I haven't put much attention into trams lol
05:25:54 <Eddi|zuHause> it's like people talking about wine tasting
05:26:28 <Eddi|zuHause> they just spew out words, assuming the other person knows what those words mean
05:26:54 <Flygon> (the S-class in Victoria was only suppose to hit 115km/h, but had large enough wheels to quite easily facilitate operation for over 160km/h. The fastest the locos have been recorded going is 148km/h when their paper recorders ran out during a 'Spirit of Progress' run... so naturally they decided to make the train go as fast as possible for shits and gggles)
05:27:34 <Flygon> (this's ONLY known because the drivers themselves recorded it. And they still had to do half the trip well below the intended speed so that the signal boxes wouldn't record them speeding/so they wouldn't be conspicuously early)
05:27:46 <Flygon> (148km/h is an iirc figure... it was somewhere in the 14xkm/h range)
05:28:40 <Odin> A4 Mallard was recorded at 160km/h and holds the record for steam locomotives
05:28:56 <Eddi|zuHause> interesting what passes as "fast" for some people
05:29:05 <Flygon> This is probably part of the reason the H220 has smaller driving wheels, and more of them... to prevent drivers speeding, but also help acceleration anyway :U
05:29:18 <Eddi|zuHause> 160 is the top speed over here for conventinal signalling
05:29:33 <Flygon> Not that I don't think entrepeneurial drivers wouldn't have tried for 130km/h+ anyway
05:29:52 <Flygon> Eddi: In current day Victoria, 160km/h is the absolute max, with the VLocity DMUs
05:29:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Odin: the german BR 61 was scheduled with a 160km/h top speed
05:29:53 <Odin> Only if they thought they could get away with it.
05:29:58 <Flygon> And by absolute max, I mean
05:30:08 <Flygon> They still tend to run around 177km/h when behind the timetable
05:30:23 <Flygon> And have, again, unofficially, done 220km/h during test runs on new RFR track :U
05:30:40 <Flygon> Apperantly the main reason for the 160km/h cap is signal sighting issues
05:30:58 <Odin> Oh. Mallard's record is 202.5 km/h officially
05:31:13 <Odin> and 160km/h is just the speed it was capable of.
05:31:25 <Odin> Gotta look these things up every so often or I get the numbers mixed up
05:32:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Odin: that sounds more likely
05:32:33 <Flygon> (also, apperantly vibration levels around 200km/h were a tad unpleasent)
05:32:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Odin: iirc, the record was previously held by the german BR 05, for a few weeks or months
05:33:00 <Eddi|zuHause> which went around 201 in a test run
05:33:07 <Odin> Yeah, DRG Class 05 200.4km/h
05:33:20 <Odin> Mallard's run was 2 years after that
05:33:49 <Flygon> (this's exemplified by the fact that, reportedly, during one of the 220km/hish tests, the front apron of the VLo managed to fall off)"
05:34:23 <Eddi|zuHause> probably WWII made a stop to such record runs
05:34:39 <Flygon> I'll play devils advocate here
05:34:46 <Flygon> Mallard hit it's top speed going downhill
05:34:57 <Flygon> DRG 05 hit it's top speed on even land
05:35:36 <Eddi|zuHause> well, of course the british will be cheating in such things :p
05:35:38 <Odin> Yeah, but if you really want to be fair take them both out to the Utah salt flats on a straight perfectly level track that goes for miles
05:35:51 <Odin> Might even find a few american engines that want to go for the goal too
05:36:01 <Odin> and plenty of rednecks with rocket cars trying to do it without rails
05:36:02 <Flygon> Just use existing HST track
05:36:44 <Flygon> And if we're utterly desperate to try and do a speedrun with 1600mm track.. er... well, I guess Victoria has some straight bits too :U
06:03:11 <kamnet> I did a bunch of research into trams last year for the yet-to-be-finished 2CC Trams set. beautiful set of ustralian trams
06:03:22 <kamnet> Australian trams, even
06:04:16 <kamnet> its nice to see trams making a comeback as urban and suburban light rail.
06:17:22 <Flygon> kamnet: Even with Australia, tho
06:17:37 <Flygon> There's still a huge dead-spot internationally from 1955 to 1970 /=
06:17:49 <Flygon> 1970 iirc being when the PCC Z-Class Tram experiment happenex
06:18:07 <Flygon> Or: The PCC Car shaped Melbourne's current network :D
06:18:19 <Flygon> Tho, the actual PCC equipment stopped being used when the 2nd Z-Class Tram was made
06:20:49 <Flygon> kamnet: It'd be neat to see PCC 980 implemented and going 115km/h :P
06:21:01 <Flygon> But I can see why you wouldn't want a 1939 era Tram going that speed :B
06:21:23 <kamnet> Movies? Whatcha seeing?
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08:47:12 <Alberth> oh, SkiddLow is giving you a hand :)
08:48:06 <andythenorth> probably have to put a ‘smoking kills’ warning on it
08:49:03 * andythenorth should work on some FIRS
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08:52:40 <Supercheese> I cannot ever make sense of what this Skiddlow character posts
08:52:52 <Supercheese> might as well put on ignore list
08:53:22 <Alberth> mostly wishes, as far as I can tell, although he sometimes makes some art too
08:53:31 <Supercheese> he has actually posted sprites before
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08:54:24 <DorpsGek> __ln__: peter1138 was last seen in #openttd 14 hours, 31 minutes, and 19 seconds ago: <peter1138> oh?
08:54:38 <Alberth> yeah, and someone has coded them into newgrf too, I think
08:55:23 <Alberth> there are easier ways to highlight peter :)
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10:12:02 <kamnet> Skiddlow's next work should be titled FIRS: Heart of Big Pharma
10:16:24 <supermop> i want a pacific northwest economy with legal weed
10:16:46 <supermop> and more coffee of course
10:17:55 <supermop> coffee, computers, cannabis, and conifers
10:24:02 <andythenorth> single-speed bikes
10:24:19 <andythenorth> post-grunge bands
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10:59:24 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27250 trunk/config.lib (2015-04-26 10:59:20 +0200 )
10:59:25 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6286]: Broken error message in configure. (NG)
11:01:11 <frosch123> ouch, i must be early... the americans are still awake :p
11:02:01 <Rubidium> yeah, it's only 02:00 on the west coast and 05:00 on the east coast
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11:03:20 <kamnet> I went to bed at midnight and woke up an hour ago.
11:20:29 <Flygon> kamnet: A worthy sequel
11:20:33 <Flygon> But not aaas good as the first
11:51:26 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27251 /trunk/src (road_gui.cpp station_cmd.cpp) (2015-04-26 11:51:24 +0200 )
11:51:27 <DorpsGek> -Feature [FS#6252]: Make Ctrl+Remove-Roadstop also remove the road, just like for rail stations. (adf88)
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12:24:01 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27252 trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp (2015-04-26 12:23:55 +0200 )
12:24:02 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6281]: Invalid infrastructure counting when crossing tram tracks with railroads. (adf88)
12:26:13 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27253 trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp (2015-04-26 12:26:07 +0200 )
12:26:14 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6282]: When crossing tram tracks with railroads, cost of extra roads was not being counted. (adf88)
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12:50:42 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27254 trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp (2015-04-26 12:50:36 +0200 )
12:50:43 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6264]: When building a lock on DC_AUTO-removable water-based objects, the water class was always set to canal.
12:55:47 <kamnet> Hmmm... is there a way in vanilla openttd w/ default vehicles to completely disable property maintenance?
12:56:21 <frosch123> you can use a basecost newgrf to reduce running cost to 1/1024
12:57:16 <kamnet> but no setting within OpenTTD itself?
12:57:33 <frosch123> no, the running cost setting only has "low", which is only 1/2
12:58:10 <kamnet> And what exactly is "Other"?
12:58:32 <frosch123> in the basecost newgrf?
12:59:20 <frosch123> there is some weird base amount that costs every month
12:59:32 <frosch123> and there are cheats and money transfers
12:59:59 <frosch123> i think i's also the town actions
13:00:06 <frosch123> advertisement, exclusive rights, statue
13:00:15 <frosch123> well, "other" stuff :p
13:00:42 <kamnet> Trying to figure out what's costing me $600/year steady.
13:01:01 <frosch123> that is the base amount
13:01:08 <frosch123> must be the salary for yourself or something werid
13:01:19 <frosch123> somethnig from ttd, which noone knows about :)
13:01:31 <kamnet> Basically just something that burns your cash for the sake of it.
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13:07:06 <kamnet> I can't see where there's a justification for the "Other" base amount, then.
13:07:47 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27255 trunk/src/widget.cpp (2015-04-26 13:07:41 +0200 )
13:07:48 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6270]: Combined button+dropdown widgets in order and autoreplace GUI had incorrect hitbox when using GUI zoom. (_dp_)
13:09:35 <frosch123> kamnet: it's in economy.cpp:830
13:09:46 <frosch123> it's an uncondition fee that appears every month
13:18:34 <Alberth> secret fee to pay to CS for playing his game :p
13:26:48 <kamnet> heh. there's a way to make some money for OpenTTD: charge users a penny for every in-game month for a license fee :D
13:27:59 <frosch123> no worries, we get more by forwarding every mouse click to the nsa
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13:31:10 <kamnet> I figured you'd get double that just for forewarding it to Google instead
13:31:45 <frosch123> ah, good to know :)
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13:37:02 <Rubidium> and it looks reasonable
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13:44:04 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27256 trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp (2015-04-26 13:43:58 +0200 )
13:44:05 <DorpsGek> -Change [FS#6165]: Do not consider cargo that is already being loaded as waiting cargo wrt. the station rating.
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15:44:07 <DorpsGek> DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 5 hours, 19 minutes, and 47 seconds ago: <andythenorth> post-grunge bands
15:54:18 <Flygon> This town doesn't have any roads where it's townname is
16:37:11 <Flygon> kamnet: It looks one tile off
16:45:19 <Flygon> Does a bridge tile count as a road tile?
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19:39:24 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: DanMacK was last seen in #openttd 10 minutes and 45 seconds ago: <DanMacK> o/
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21:25:18 <locomotiva> i ´m an openttd fan and i have a problem with openttd 1.5
21:25:48 <frosch123> sorry, we cannot help with addiction problems
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21:29:20 <locomotiva> where can i ask if the game freeze or crash after trying to play a load game ?
21:29:57 <frosch123> try loading some other savegame
21:30:36 <locomotiva> same situation in every savegame on 1.5.0
21:32:19 <frosch123> i have not heard of any such problem
21:32:27 <frosch123> do you at least get some error messagE?
21:34:42 <locomotiva> me too. after the update from 1.4.4 to 1.5.0 if i try to load a savegame, the ttd mostly freeze and some times crash and close.
21:37:17 <locomotiva> and theres no error message
21:37:41 <frosch123> maybe try to post your savegame somewhere on the forums
21:37:50 <frosch123> so other people can see whether they can load it
21:38:07 <andythenorth> hot coffee is hot
21:38:24 <locomotiva> how can post a save game ???
21:40:59 <locomotiva> and the problem is not in a unique savesame, the freezing happens in every savegame.
21:48:18 <__ln__> is it about savegames at all?
21:48:28 <__ln__> does it freeze if you start a new game?
22:01:33 <Odin> What would cause cargo to dissappear from the station
22:01:46 <frosch123> rating < 25% or something
22:01:54 <Odin> Like, I have a line of trucks bringing coal to a rail station to be put on the train, but in between trains the level of cargo slowly decreases
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22:09:47 <mijet74k> I am new to OpenTTD. I recently have a problem. I create my scenario and when I open it to play, I have no train engines available. I suppose it is in the scenario settings, but I cannot find it.
22:10:15 <Odin> What year are you starting in
22:12:37 <mijet74k> Really?? That is the problem? I will try that...thanks Wolf01
22:12:51 <Wolf01> or /resetengines in console
22:13:46 <Wolf01> if you want to use the resetengines command, you should enable the "vehicles never expire" setting
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22:22:55 <locomotiva> @ _In_ the game freeze or crash only if i load a savegame, in new game works perfect!
22:23:18 <frosch123> did you rename engine models?
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22:27:54 <DanMacK> And if you start a new game, save it and reload it, does it freeze too?
22:31:00 <locomotiva> for example at 99 out of 100 times
22:50:00 <locomotiva> i try this: i start a new game and save it, and load and the savegame load and dont freeze. after that i try to load older savegames and do not freeze too... i don´t know how this happens...
22:51:54 <locomotiva> sorry my english...
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22:56:51 <locomotiva> sorry for my english...
22:59:04 <locomotiva> if anybody have a solution how can i fix the game-crashes and freezing if i load a savegame. i´m waitinghere.
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continue to next day ⏵
