IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-02-05
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00:00:53 <Eddi|zuHause> if you want to go a overlong wagon way, the long wagon could be 12lu (meaning 1.5 times a default wagon)
00:01:38 <Eddi|zuHause> short wagon would then be 6lu, and medium wagon 8lu
00:01:59 <Eddi|zuHause> where lu is a "length unit"
00:02:16 <Eddi|zuHause> 16lu make one tile
00:02:43 <Eddi|zuHause> long wagons, however, are tricky to code and might glitch
00:05:00 <samu> aircraft refited to mail gives too much money
00:05:19 <Eddi|zuHause> aircraft [...] gives too much money.
00:05:38 <Eddi|zuHause> aircraft are boring
00:06:12 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't organize them properly
00:06:45 <dreck> samu...airplanes are meant to be paired with basecost to put it in blunt terms...
00:07:04 <dreck> they came too cheap in all numbers by default and even grfs still follow the same path too :->
00:07:04 <Eddi|zuHause> use maintenance cost for airports. go bankrupt.
00:07:12 <samu> I remember the other time I was here, last year or 2, complaining about refiting aircraft to mail
00:07:28 <dreck> eddi ah...didn't think I've heard of this 'lu' measurement before..makes more sense...thanks :)
00:08:01 <samu> forgot what it was exactly, grr
00:08:12 <Eddi|zuHause> dreck: i was trying to spread it, but nobody ever caught on. everybody calls it "/8"
00:08:33 <dreck> samu..one thing I liked in the true original planes tho was that you could refit for any freights and not only mail/goods :)
00:08:54 <dreck> at least russiaplanes (forgot exact grf name) has some good all-freight planes in its buylist
00:09:26 <Eddi|zuHause> av8 definitely has some all-cargo aircraft
00:09:41 <samu> the refiting cargo in openttd mismatch the values of ttdx
00:09:54 <samu> and I was trying to figure the formula, do you remember ?
00:10:02 <dreck> samu mind you the one thing that still annoys me is how noone can make a passenger-only plane :-s but heh no comment
00:10:53 <Eddi|zuHause> dreck: well, you can easily set the mail capacity to 0... but passenger planes are meant to carry mail...
00:11:00 <dreck> so eddi.. 16lu is 1.0 ... 8lu would be 0.5 etc?
00:11:13 <Eddi|zuHause> 8lu is a standard wagon
00:11:17 <dreck> eddi...the problem is when you have a passenger-only network and now your station is messed up with lot of mail piling up :-s
00:11:39 <Eddi|zuHause> wagons longer than that need to be made of parts, and then trickery added to make them not bend or glitch (that much)
00:11:56 <dreck> making you have to either compound the runaway traffic with mail-only planes to clear the load out or ..convert some trains to less passenger capacity just to get mail ...etca ... heh -_-
00:12:13 <dreck> ah yeah articulated sprites..I've seen a few samples of these so I know what you mean
00:15:56 <Supercheese> get more RAM then ;)
00:16:10 <samu> do you have a log of this chat of 2 years ago or so? want to find where I talked about it
00:16:20 <Supercheese> @logs may have it
00:19:41 <samu> An error occured, which was not logged, and was not reported to anybody. It might be your fault, or it might be mine.
00:22:05 <dreck> eddi mm thanks for that small thread .. I don't think I even got anything long planned for yet ... other than maybe one or two garratt-style locomotives but cheers :)
00:22:08 <samu> according to some dosbox screenshots it was around May 2015
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01:23:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the backup bugged out again
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03:01:25 <samu> bottom part of that page
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04:28:50 <Pikkaphone> orudge: does "the nightly backup" now take several hours? It was the same yesterday afternoon...
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05:14:53 <ST2> yup, the "nightly backup" has some issues
05:16:05 <ST2> there's 2 options: or the server is with problems or nightly posts are unwanted :S
05:16:37 <ST2> anyway, I guess it's the 1st, so, best luck on solving it :)
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07:08:21 <Eddi|zuHause> "this website is only open from 6 to 18 o'clock" :p
07:09:46 <__ln__> that would conserve energy
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11:17:15 <V453000> am starting to wonder if 72 sprites per vehicle is a great idea XD
11:24:34 <planetmaker> V453000, well, you cannot compose a vehicle view from several sprites - unless you count articulation; but there technically each part is a separate vehicle
11:24:47 <V453000> they are articulated yes :)
11:24:49 <planetmaker> but then, I'm sure you know that
11:25:13 <V453000> I want articulated vehicles made of 9 parts
11:25:30 <V453000> 1+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+1 lengths of consists (16/8 total)
11:25:37 <V453000> bending everywhere XD
11:25:54 <V453000> of course I can replace the central 2s to put there normal 2x8/8 at any point
11:26:55 <V453000> I just want to see how much WTF is bending everywhere going to be
11:27:07 <V453000> so far I assume it could be glitch free XD
11:27:14 <V453000> question is whether it would look good at all
11:27:47 <V453000> my logic was that since I already always use the articulation, and since I already have to use at least 2 units to create full 16/8, might as well do the whole thing :D
11:28:07 <V453000> because when the engine would bend in half I feel like it would feel more like a mistake than if it bent everywhere
11:45:50 <planetmaker> definitely worth a try
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12:08:20 <andythenorth> INDUSTRY_PYPNML_SRC = $(INDUSTRY_PY_SRC:.py=.pypnml)
12:09:43 <andythenorth> but now I have a an industry that doesn’t have .pypnml file
12:09:52 <andythenorth> so make fails :)
12:10:12 <andythenorth> sticking plaster is to leave an empty .pypnml file in
12:18:12 <V453000> say something about over-engineered andythenorth ?
12:20:31 <andythenorth> V453000: looks appropriately engineered
12:20:58 <andythenorth> V453000: do you hate bendy trains still?
12:21:09 <andythenorth> I am thinking that bendy trains might be wtf awesome
12:21:27 <andythenorth> eddi’s stuff with extra turning angles is impressive, but for a cartoon-esque game, I think bendy is the way to go
12:21:30 <V453000> no glitches in tunnels and shit
12:21:31 * andythenorth considers bendy trucks :P
12:21:47 <V453000> basic train cut to shit
12:22:19 <andythenorth> anyway, make them all organic-ish
12:23:01 <V453000> but yeah that is ze progress :D might attempt some coding in the evening
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12:49:53 <V453000> peter dont tell me you recognize 15,5% stretch :P
12:50:13 <V453000> well ok it is somewhat visible, but not that terribly
12:50:42 <V453000> as in, yes visible, but the rounded shapes dont get so ellipsoidy as they did before :D
12:51:30 <V453000> PS I managed to write a simple javascript bullshit to position my sprites XD
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13:29:37 <samu> main page copyright year: Copyright © 2005-2014 OpenTTD Team
13:31:12 <Flygon> andythenorth: Why not both bendy AND extra angles?
13:31:22 <Flygon> El Pas had the solution all along!
13:31:28 <Flygon> And I? still getting used to this keyboard
13:36:13 <peter1138> samu, has the main page changed?
13:37:41 <peter1138> samu, maybe you need to read up on what the copyright date means?
13:38:16 <peter1138> That is not what I asked.
13:41:35 <peter1138> It's the copyright date...
13:41:37 <peter1138> Not the current year.
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13:42:07 <peter1138> If changes are made this year, then the date will be changed.
13:46:30 <peter1138> (But not automated stuff)
13:52:52 <samu> interesting feature about oil rigs I noticed
13:53:25 <samu> I can find the build date by land area information at the station tile
13:53:40 <samu> but not on the industry itself
13:56:33 <samu> how do I export game settings from a server that is not mine?
13:56:52 <samu> wanted to recreate the landscape
14:01:12 <samu> actually I wanted to recreate the world, not only landscape
14:01:42 <samu> and also use the specific game settings for vehicles, industries etc~
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15:44:40 <samu> how do I export game settings from a server that is not mine?
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15:55:13 <planetmaker> samu, other than taking a savegame and looking at settings, there is no nice way to extract settings. Though you can load it and look then at settings and it will tell you the difference to default at least. Not sure whether to yours as well
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16:11:07 <samu> Setting with a different value than your new game settings :)
16:13:53 <samu> any way to "use these settings with a different value than your new game settings" as the newer game settings? or must I set them all one by one?
16:25:28 <samu> how do i find the sea quantity value?
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16:26:19 <samu> it's not under World Generation
16:27:03 <Alberth> probably a variable that you can query in the console
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16:58:41 <samu> hey, i managed to recreate the same landscape, but not the same spawning position of towns
17:00:36 <samu> wait, no, landscape is slightly different
17:00:50 <samu> there's water in the SE borders
17:06:47 <samu> aha, one step closer to recreate it equal, now the problem is the number of towns generated
17:07:36 <samu> it creates the same town names in the same positions, but it is creating some extra ones, how do I figure out
17:13:52 <samu> muahahah, now starting to test stuff
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17:38:28 <samu> hey, just had an idea for estimated cost
17:39:37 <samu> and get rid of holding shift key
17:41:12 <Alberth> you have to press both mouse buttons instead?
17:42:01 <Alberth> not with my settings, I have to press rmb
17:42:01 <samu> hold left click - the yellow thing shows up
17:42:40 <samu> build a road from A to B, it shows lenght, then it could also show estimated cost in the same tooltip
17:44:13 <Alberth> like I said, I have my tooltips connected to the rmb
17:44:22 <samu> hold left click for the estimated cost popup, if you wanna build, release left click
17:44:41 <samu> if you wanna cancel, drag over the toolbar
17:45:23 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27136 trunk/src/lang/afrikaans.txt (2015-02-05 17:45:18 UTC)
17:45:24 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:25 <DorpsGek> afrikaans - 1 changes by telanus
17:45:26 <Alberth> I just HATE automagic popups, they're always covering pieces I want to see
17:45:42 <Alberth> I also don't display length
17:47:06 <Alberth> and cost isn't that interesting either, imho, I always have more than enough
17:48:18 <samu> then, the shift-key would be free for some other use :)
17:49:22 <Alberth> magic keys like control or shift are not that useful any more, touch tablets etc don't have those keys
17:50:14 <Alberth> that's going to be increasingly a problem, I think
17:57:08 <samu> rats, just noticed something odd
17:57:45 <samu> the oil rig spawning is spawning
17:58:01 <samu> but futher inside the land
17:58:35 <samu> correction: not only on the borders, but also further inside mainland
18:04:50 <Alberth> there is a settings that controls how far from the border it may spawn, afaik
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18:20:02 <Alberth> ask a question, and you may get it
18:20:12 <samu> no, that's only for Oil Refinery
18:20:27 <samu> I missed some properties
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18:27:15 <igorsenvad> I have server default openttd, was wanting to put a game mode, style "Quick Goal" but I don't know how, I searched for gamescripts but it is complex. Want a server to play with my friends that who can achieve such value of firm WINS. How do I do it?
18:29:42 <Alberth> donwload a gamescript of your choice
18:30:15 <Alberth> in the intro screen, open the "ai/game" window, and activate the game script
18:30:35 <Alberth> back in the intro screen, start a MP game
18:30:55 <igorsenvad> I don't think a gamescript in this style "quick goal"
18:32:25 <Alberth> what is "quick goal" to you?
18:32:44 <igorsenvad> Type a game mode where one reaches 15 million won
18:33:03 <igorsenvad> 15 million value company
18:33:52 <Alberth> you could be right, I don't remember seeing such a script
18:34:13 <Alberth> but I don't care for such goals either, so maybe my memory is wrong
18:34:46 <andythenorth> I don’t know of that goal
18:34:56 <andythenorth> not the hardest GS to code probably
18:35:12 <andythenorth> igorsenvad: try NoCarGoal (NCG)
18:35:22 <andythenorth> it’s not what you asked, but you can set it for a quick goal
18:35:28 <andythenorth> it’s time based though, not ‘first to win'
18:36:10 <andythenorth> Silicon Valley is also usable for quick goals
18:36:18 <andythenorth> and is ‘first to win’
18:37:18 <Alberth> ^^ those scripts make you build a good network and transport cargo
18:42:16 <igorsenvad> How to open .nut ? Note block?
18:43:03 <samu> am I being paranoid or not?
18:43:19 <samu> can oil rigs spawn anywhere in the map
18:43:44 <Alberth> I have seen them do that
18:43:47 <samu> what ar the creation rules
18:44:54 <b_jonas> samu: I think there's a limit on how close to the map edge they have to be ... or maybe that applies only to oil refineries?
18:45:25 <samu> i'm sure that oil refineries behave like that, but not sure about oil rig
18:45:54 <Alberth> and on water, of course
18:47:01 <Alberth> I just don't know which ones apply to the oil rig
18:49:50 <samu> Available procedures to check whether an industry may build at a given location.
18:52:05 <samu> one thing is placing a oil rig in the scenario editor, apparently it lets me build anywhere there is water, into mainland
18:52:13 <samu> another thing is seeing it spawn in a real game
18:52:50 <samu> and i dont think it spawn in the interior
18:54:08 <Alberth> you can add new restrictions to your grf
18:54:20 <Alberth> don't know how, though :(
18:55:12 <samu> i just don't want to change the spawning rules
18:57:50 <roidal> is there a way to change difficulty options during a game?
18:58:24 <roidal> like vehicle running costs
18:59:41 <Alberth> if it is not greyed out, you can
19:01:15 <samu> re-testing oil rig spawning
19:01:33 <Alberth> roidal: 3rd button on the main toolbar has a drop-down for selecting settings
19:01:45 <samu> they're not spawning during the 1950-1960 period
19:02:45 <samu> ok, so it's missing a check or maybe that 0xFF is wrong
19:02:57 <samu> and should be clear instead?
19:04:03 <samu> yeah, running two games in parallel with mucho water, I confirm that default oil rigs are only spawning near map borders
19:04:18 <samu> and my version is letting them spawn everywhere there is water
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19:22:46 <roidal> Alberth: yes, but difficulty settings are grayed out
19:23:24 <Alberth> cannot be changed then
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19:30:35 <samu> oh, just discovered nmlc.exe works with drag and drop
19:31:09 <samu> using mouse to drag a .nml file into nmlc.exe and it creates a .grf
19:32:35 <samu> :( 'clear' vs '0xFF' - nothing different
19:33:29 <Supercheese> Is not clear defined explicitly as 0xFF in NML constants?
19:35:54 <Alberth> if isinstance(tile, expression.Identifier) and tile.value == 'clear':
19:35:54 <Alberth> tile = expression.ConstantNumeric(0xFF)
19:36:13 <samu> oh, so 0xFF is the same as clear
19:36:24 <Alberth> or rather, 'clear' gets rewritten to 0xFF
19:36:30 <Supercheese> if isinstance(tile, expression.Identifier) and tile.value == 'clear':
19:36:32 <Supercheese> tile = expression.ConstantNumeric(0xFF)
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19:36:56 <Supercheese> not quite as explicit as some NML constants, but it's there
19:36:59 <samu> oil rigs must have had a special water type
19:37:06 <Alberth> that explains why nothing changed :)
19:37:24 <samu> that tile probably can only be placed near map border
19:38:40 <samu> can you distinguish a water tile that is close to map border and another that is inside mainland?
19:39:18 <samu> or maybe it's not the layout
19:39:39 <samu> how do I implement this text into the nml?
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19:43:02 <samu> how was the industry created part also seems important
19:43:25 <samu> 4 ways to spawn a oil rig :(
19:43:54 <Alberth> derive your rig from the original oil rig industry, then you have the settings already
19:44:17 <Supercheese> still on the oilrig stuff, eh?
19:44:27 <Supercheese> and still going for tile layouts?
19:46:01 <samu> yes, i discovered a different spawning behaviour
19:46:15 <samu> and now i'm trying to figure it out
19:51:52 <samu> isn't that what I've done already albert?
19:53:25 <Alberth> you have to set an industry to use as template or something like that, iirc
19:54:01 <Alberth> which basically means the game copies all settings of that industry type to your new industry type
19:55:50 <Alberth> all, as far as I know, but you then set a new layout?
19:57:24 <samu> the layout is to replace the original, but still use all its rules
19:57:45 <samu> creation rules, settings, properties, etc.. only the tilelayout map
19:58:24 <samu> I don't know the technical terms
20:00:46 <samu> Each layout have it's own placement check rules/properties?
20:04:57 <samu> if it currently is not allowing me to build one oil rig adjacent to each other, then it is doing a placement check, right? Maybe the layout needs more properties on the layout
20:05:14 <samu> lol redundancy, my head is exploding
20:08:19 <samu> what exactly happens when the game spawns an industry? If I could understand this process, things would be easier
20:12:26 <andythenorth> if you’re prepared to translate nfo -> nml, I still find it easier to read the nfo part of newgrf wiki
20:12:53 <andythenorth> approximately (I might have the order wrong, but industry_cmd.cpp knows the order if you want to check):
20:13:12 <andythenorth> - game randomly selects a tile for the N tile of the industry
20:13:28 <andythenorth> - game sees if the tile meets the *industry* location check criteria
20:13:49 <andythenorth> - game tries a random layout to see if it will physically fit the location
20:14:03 <andythenorth> - can’t remember if the game cycles all layouts at that location, but the code will know
20:14:14 <andythenorth> - game runs the *tile* location checks
20:14:22 <andythenorth> (for every tile in the layout)
20:14:30 <andythenorth> industry is built or fails
20:14:38 <andythenorth> game will try n times to build before failing
20:14:58 <andythenorth> if you want the canonical answer, read industry_cmd.cpp, not my summary
20:15:31 <andythenorth> there are also some steps, like levelling land, and running the newgrf location cbs etc
20:19:12 <samu> wow, i found the original oil rig layout static const IndustryTileTable _tile_table_oil_rig_0[] = {
20:19:53 <samu> range differs slightly than mine
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20:20:35 <samu> x goes from -4 to 5 and y from -5 to 6
20:27:05 <samu> someone made a mistake, either me or the wiki is wrong
20:35:15 <samu> yep, wiki layout is wrong
20:35:31 <frosch123> what do you think is wrong?
20:35:32 <samu> I'll show you, about to finish drawing it
20:35:48 <samu> just dont know how to convert 0-255 to 0-FF
20:37:07 <samu> 24 in hexadecimal is 18?
20:37:55 <samu> well, I'll assume those hex values are correct
20:38:22 <frosch123> well, i assume you swapped x and y :p
20:40:33 <frosch123> ah, you fell for that
20:40:44 <frosch123> well, your mistake was to take numbers literally
20:40:50 <frosch123> but ttd was programmed in assembly
20:41:03 <dreck> 1+1 is not literally 3? :) (sorry maybe bad joke)
20:41:06 <frosch123> so you just work around two's compliment in randmo places
20:41:32 <__ln__> it's almost certainly complement, not compliment
20:43:06 <frosch123> samu: you are lucky. assembler programmers are at least better than fortran programmers
20:44:51 <samu> no idea what's a fortran or assembler, so, wiki is right after all, both are right
20:45:13 <Alberth> quite, writing an assembler program for assembly language is not so trivial
20:52:56 <samu> it's the only tiletable with negative coordinates :(
20:53:00 <samu> quite special that oil rig
20:56:04 <frosch123> hmm, actually ottd could be wrong here
20:56:18 <frosch123> it probably broke that magic around version 0.3 when adding bigger maps :p
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20:59:58 <samu> i have no idea what you're talking about now
21:00:38 <samu> which one is correct after all?
21:10:18 <frosch123> hmm, now i tracked it back to ottd 0.1, either ludde made a mistake, or cs and ttdp guys
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21:20:53 <samu> so, which one do I trust now?
21:22:46 <samu> I have to edit upon one of those
21:29:52 <samu> trying to decipher default oil rig placement in scenario editor
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22:02:00 <samu> this proves wiki is wrong
22:03:17 <frosch123> who says ottd is right?
22:03:52 <samu> it let me build exactly in that mold
22:04:07 <frosch123> do you know the game "chinese whispers"?
22:04:47 <frosch123> you don't know who is lying
22:05:06 <frosch123> adding a grf to ottd is like chinese whispers
22:05:21 <frosch123> nml source -> nml compiler -> ottd grf interpreter -> ottd code -> display
22:09:34 <samu> I'm confused with what you're trying to tell me
22:10:18 <samu> isn't the svn the original one? the source?
22:11:19 <planetmaker> which may not be bug-free. Or the grf compiler produced a faulty grf. Or... :)
22:12:55 <frosch123> clearly ottd does not what the grfspecs say
22:13:01 <frosch123> already ottd 0.1 did not do that
22:13:12 <frosch123> the grfspecs result in a sensible layout for the oil righ
22:13:18 <frosch123> while the ottd layout is weird
22:13:30 <frosch123> now there are two options:
22:13:59 <frosch123> a) ottd 0.1 was already wrong
22:14:39 <frosch123> b) cs already did it wrong and ttd was really that weird, and ttdp guys misinterpreted it for something real
22:17:41 <samu> do you want me to install TTDLX in dosbox?
22:18:05 <samu> it has a scenario editor doesn't it?
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22:37:53 <samu> okay im drawing the mold in ttdx
22:38:05 <samu> will take a while, signal placement is a bit different
22:38:38 <frosch123> nml seems to follow ottd behaviour
22:39:01 <frosch123> though the grfspec behaviour makes a lot of sense for an assembler program on a 256x256 map
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22:48:49 <DorpsGek> DanMacK: Pikka was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 5 days, 0 hours, 38 minutes, and 16 seconds ago: <Pikka> splendide
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23:08:46 <samu> crap, how do i open a .pcx?
23:10:11 *** itsatacoshop247 has quit IRC
23:15:51 <samu> i don't know how to open a .pcx
23:33:24 <samu> it has got the answers he was looking for
continue to next day ⏵
