IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-01-22
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09:56:45 <V453000> cat is under the tracks
09:57:27 <argoneus> good morning train friends
09:57:29 <andythenorth> so example of stupid FIRS thing because…reasons
09:57:33 <andythenorth> Iron Works makes metal
09:57:44 <andythenorth> but only 4t per 8t input, even when fully supplied
09:57:55 <andythenorth> Steel Mill is 8t per 8t input if fully supplied
09:58:03 <andythenorth> “because players should do extra work"
09:58:19 <andythenorth> bad thinking by andythenorth
09:59:14 <V453000> iron works is the early 1800s or something industry?
09:59:24 <V453000> personally I dont like the changing industries over game date at all
09:59:39 <V453000> one expires one becomes available :/
10:00:05 <andythenorth> Iron Works is only one that does it
10:00:21 <andythenorth> fucking up the production was retrospective justification for adding it
10:00:40 <andythenorth> there are lots that have intro dates, these are annoying too
10:00:45 <andythenorth> broken chains before xyz
10:00:56 <V453000> yes, especially the biorefinery
10:01:01 <V453000> recyclables is nice though
10:01:08 <V453000> some spicing up for late game, that I like
10:01:09 <andythenorth> reyclables is the joker in the pack
10:01:15 <V453000> because it is quite independent of anything
10:01:25 <andythenorth> example of not sticking to a rigid system, because that’s too boring
10:01:35 <andythenorth> always need something different
10:01:46 <andythenorth> but Iron Works isn’t
10:02:00 <andythenorth> nor is delaying some industries until 1900s, and the game rarely builds them
10:02:13 <V453000> also fish should be done something about
10:02:17 <V453000> fun cargo but no growth = boring
10:02:25 <andythenorth> solve iron works first, we talk fish after
10:02:29 <andythenorth> iron works, delete?
10:02:37 <V453000> replace with steel mill, easy :P
10:02:46 <andythenorth> already is steel mill in game
10:02:53 <andythenorth> downside of deleting, sad players, sad danmack
10:03:21 <andythenorth> upside of deleting: not much, it’s only in Full FIRS, and Full FIRS is out of control anyway
10:03:24 <V453000> players are idiots, danmack needs to step up to 3D :P
10:03:37 <andythenorth> he’s the best pixelator
10:03:48 <andythenorth> so just make production not-fucked-up?
10:05:21 <andythenorth> needs a third cargo
10:05:37 <andythenorth> otherwise people will do excel spreadsheets showing why the logical choice is to use iron works not steel mill
10:05:42 <andythenorth> as more output per input
10:05:56 <andythenorth> hmm they use sand for casting
10:06:01 <andythenorth> and stone for smelting
10:06:23 <V453000> well, you do have two different industries producing the same thing, does it matter which one people use?
10:07:02 <andythenorth> not if I make them roughly equivalent
10:07:23 <andythenorth> let’s look at cargo flow chart
10:08:38 <andythenorth> inside of my head? you don’t want pictures of what’s in there
10:10:12 <andythenorth> because you can see the animation of the iron being cast
10:10:23 <andythenorth> and it’s arbitrary choice, no real gameplay impact either way
10:10:25 <V453000> cargo because animation
10:10:36 <andythenorth> sense left this industry a long time ago
10:10:37 <V453000> I think sand is good actually
10:10:47 <andythenorth> scrap metal already makes metal in two places
10:10:50 <V453000> sand cant make any supplies otherwise right
10:11:02 <andythenorth> well, I fucked up the chains by adding two kinds of port
10:11:03 <V453000> off with it to the foundry then :D
10:11:09 <andythenorth> so now sand can make supplies via goods
10:11:18 <andythenorth> err…building materials
10:11:40 <V453000> fish should wreck all shit
10:11:52 <V453000> nah just make the production have any chance of increasing
10:12:03 <V453000> let it accept FMSP, let it increase randomly by itself, anything :)
10:12:07 <andythenorth> then I have to build more boats
10:12:16 <andythenorth> building fishing boats is serious yak-hsaving
10:12:19 <andythenorth> need a fishing AI
10:12:29 <V453000> you can build trains :P
10:12:49 <V453000> esp if you make FIRS set max distance from shore for marine industries to something like 10
10:12:51 <andythenorth> fish is the cargo I do in early game for stable income with no network jams or need to babysit
10:12:55 <V453000> slight walking etc, great stuff
10:13:06 <andythenorth> you want a fish farm on land?
10:13:17 <V453000> fish farm in the sea is great
10:13:26 <andythenorth> random increase, standard ttd mechanic?
10:13:31 <V453000> but never used due tlow production
10:13:38 <V453000> standard ttd mechanic wouldnt hurt
10:13:45 <V453000> means you could grow them up to 2k but would take a long time
10:13:52 <andythenorth> so good service means more fish
10:13:53 <V453000> would actually be really nice
10:13:57 <andythenorth> that’s anti-realisms :)
10:14:04 <andythenorth> realisms, more fishing, less fish
10:14:24 <andythenorth> supply exact right amount of transport, get more fish :P
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10:14:48 <V453000> I would just let it have the original industry mechanism, that would be great
10:14:54 <andythenorth> what, totally random?
10:15:01 <andythenorth> or paying attention to transport rating?
10:15:16 <V453000> the one with attention ot station ratings I suppose
10:15:28 <V453000> XD broken as fuck with your 100% station rating hax
10:15:40 <andythenorth> I don’t use that hax
10:15:40 <V453000> still better than current stuff
10:15:53 <andythenorth> the 100% was filed under ‘players want options'
10:16:04 <V453000> players dont want to build 2 trains per industry
10:17:08 <andythenorth> the ‘improved ratings’ are for when I play with NARS 2, and have 30 tile long trains on single-track rail with passing looooops
10:17:26 <andythenorth> now I am building 5 tile high speed freight trains on fully signalled double track
10:17:31 <andythenorth> must have been in too many coop games :(
10:18:03 <andythenorth> next game I’ll probably build overflow depots :(
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12:58:45 * andythenorth finds some things wrong in FIRS
12:59:15 <V453000> am almost done with all tracks meanwhile :)
12:59:27 * andythenorth has no idea how industry production works
12:59:36 <andythenorth> but possibly lots of secondaries are doing it wrong currently
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13:00:32 <deniz1a> what do you do with your money in the game after a while? fund primary industries?
13:00:34 <andythenorth> fortunately whoever wrote this left extended code comments
13:00:52 <andythenorth> that’s one of the better options
13:00:55 <deniz1a> but they cost around 30 million. is it worth it?
13:01:04 <andythenorth> ‘worth it’ is subjective :)
13:01:12 <andythenorth> you have more money than you need?
13:01:20 <V453000> you have shitload of money, worth is indeed a bad word :P
13:01:24 <deniz1a> do you get that much money from them?
13:01:54 <V453000> just stop caring about money :) you have billions after a few decades anyway
13:02:06 <V453000> build a nice, big network
13:02:14 <V453000> the more trains you can get the better :)
13:02:15 <deniz1a> yeah maybe it's more important in multiplayer
13:02:49 <deniz1a> once darwin jumbo jets are available, what's the point of constructing anything else?
13:02:58 <deniz1a> they bring 100 thousand dollars in one flight
13:03:08 <V453000> exactly, quit regarding money
13:03:13 <V453000> trains are interesting and fun :)
13:03:41 <V453000> you can adjust any costs anyway, with newGRFs for example
13:03:48 <deniz1a> yeah, i just learned how to use signals. it's so much fun
13:03:51 <V453000> money will always be just a number
13:04:23 <V453000> see openttdcoop.org how to build a big network, you might enjoy that if you want to really learn the game and play long while still interesting games
13:04:32 <deniz1a> but still, it's the main point of the game, to make profits, isn't it?
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13:04:58 <V453000> it is seemingly the point for beginners, but after a short while you discover that making money is very primitive
13:05:16 <deniz1a> for example, i build rail networks to carry iron to steel mill then take that steel to a factory and also get grain and livestock to that factory
13:05:18 <V453000> the game is one big sandbox, really :) you just do have to move things around :)
13:05:30 <deniz1a> and all that brings very little compared to carrying passengers
13:05:59 <andythenorth> if you’ve figured out winning at money, try a gamescript (GS)
13:06:01 <V453000> sure, that points to various things
13:06:13 <V453000> either you have newGRFs which just do not "balance" each other by costs
13:06:17 <andythenorth> it gets boring fast once you know how to make money
13:06:28 <deniz1a> gamescript? do you mean scenarios or newgrf?
13:06:30 <V453000> or you simply have some settings which let planes get extreme profits, also constructing planes is easy
13:06:38 <V453000> gamescript is a gamescript :)
13:07:20 <andythenorth> Silicon Valley and NoCarGoal are two good ones
13:07:26 <andythenorth> available from in-game content
13:07:30 <deniz1a> oh ok i saw gamescripts in the online contents
13:07:32 <andythenorth> there are also some about growing cities
13:07:47 <andythenorth> Busy Bee is a new one, in development, but there is no win condition
13:07:50 <V453000> YETI is better at growing cities already :P
13:08:06 <deniz1a> yeti has awesome graphics
13:08:37 <deniz1a> but i think generally passenger transport fees should be reduced
13:08:49 <V453000> there are newgrfs which do that :)
13:08:57 <deniz1a> oh you did yeti? great work heh
13:08:59 <V453000> but it is all very changeble
13:09:17 <V453000> e.g. you can have city size multiplier at 10 and make passengers outright profittable
13:09:33 <V453000> or you can have very small towns and slow growth rate, multiplier 1 and you dont get as many
13:09:43 <V453000> you cant really create a cost which would be "balanced"
13:10:06 <deniz1a> oh ok. yes city growth would control passenger profits
13:10:46 <V453000> many things do :) even date when you start, later date, faster vehicles, passengers are very unhappy when they travel with slow trains
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13:17:56 <dreck> just wanted to check quickly as I'm not sure how to structure it at all.. how would you do something like this properly? rcon mypwd settingnewgame "disasters false"
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13:26:33 <Eddi|zuHause> the "" are wrong
13:29:39 <V453000> the "" are always wrong :D
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13:55:55 <peter1138> rcon password "command parameters"
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15:44:22 <dreck> hmm weird .. rcon thinks disaster is on but the advanced setting says its off .. and same for several other settings
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16:13:25 <dreck> meh I think I'll see if I can wait for ngc instead
16:13:41 <dreck> console seem to be conflicting with what the advanced setting window shows
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16:28:05 <Eddi|zuHause> ... with some people you really wonder how they could ever be functioning part of the society...
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16:36:27 <TELK> Hello, may I have a question of some web-programming problem?
16:36:47 <TELK> about finger.openttd.org?
16:36:58 <planetmaker> don't ask to ask, just ask
16:37:58 <TELK> I can't get the contents of finger.openttd.org by using cURL in PHP
16:38:23 <planetmaker> you want finger.o.o or finger.o.o/versions.txt ?
16:38:39 <planetmaker> however, both are available by simple query
16:38:56 <Alberth> hi hi pm, thanks for making bb nightly-aware :)
16:39:00 <TELK> mostly versions.txt, but I usually get some other pages, too.
16:39:18 <planetmaker> oh, my pleasure, alberth :)
16:40:49 <TELK> It is very strange because some server allows to get versions.txt, but others are not.
16:42:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i might be going out of a limb here, and say the problem is php :p
16:52:32 <planetmaker> php version, other server-specirfic config...
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16:54:03 <TELK> The thing is only finger.o.o doesn't work for telk.kr, other sites(eg. google) are works very well.
16:55:21 <TELK> even a line $fp = fsockopen('finger.openttd.org', 80, $errno, $errstr, 1); doesn't work, too. But $fp = fsockopen('google.com', 80, $errno, $errstr, 1); works.
16:57:40 <Alberth> you may want to try a php-oriented channel?
16:58:46 <TELK> If you think I shall, then I will.
17:00:06 <Alberth> I don't know, but this is #openttd, which is not really aimed at solving web access problems, afaik :)
17:01:15 <TELK> I was wondering it only have problem when I fetch finger.opentttd.org... sorry for inconvenience :)
17:01:51 <Alberth> just because you have a problem with a site of ours doesn't imply our site is wrong
17:02:30 <Alberth> maybe you're doing something wrong, and eg google has added a work-around so it appears to work
17:02:47 <TELK> I'm doubting it comes from IPv6...
17:05:22 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it's soemthing to do with mirrors?
17:06:15 <Eddi|zuHause> but i have not enough knowledge about the server setup to even begin to diagnose that
17:08:38 <planetmaker> web isn't mirrored, only bananas + binaries
17:08:57 <planetmaker> hm, and he possibly shouldn't leave that quickly :D
17:12:33 <Alberth> obviously, the entire Internet speaks http :p
17:13:17 <Alberth> oh, lol, == in php does implicit string -> numerical conversion :)
17:14:57 * Eddi|zuHause adds that to "list of things i never wanted to know about php"
17:15:06 <andythenorth> that blog post ^ is worth skimming
17:15:11 <andythenorth> mostly because it’s *so* long
17:15:21 <andythenorth> and he finds *so* many well-reasoned criticisms
17:15:30 <andythenorth> based on what looks like actually a lot of experience using it
17:15:37 <andythenorth> I have no experience of PHP :)
17:15:59 <andythenorth> so many developers assert ‘x sucks’ with no real insight or reasoning
17:16:08 <andythenorth> it was nice to see a total demolition job
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17:38:40 <deniz1a> hello. i can't connect to multiplayer server
17:43:05 <deniz1a> oh sorry, i didnt choose advertised yes
17:43:40 <Eddi|zuHause> glad to have been of help.
17:43:45 <deniz1a> let's say a player has built a big network of transport in a city
17:44:34 <deniz1a> and you have no stations or anything there
17:45:09 <deniz1a> can you buy an exclusive transport right just to prevent him from earning money?
17:45:30 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27124 trunk/src/lang/norwegian_nynorsk.txt (2015-01-22 17:45:22 UTC)
17:45:31 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:32 <DorpsGek> norwegian_nynorsk - 18 changes by 2rB
17:47:12 <deniz1a> Eddi|zuHause: what do you say?
17:47:38 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the game certainly allows that
17:48:02 <Eddi|zuHause> whether that's unsportsmanlike behaviour is up to the server rules
17:48:32 <deniz1a> so you can disable exclusive rights in server settings?
17:49:51 <deniz1a> there werent any options at server creation
17:50:43 <deniz1a> or do you have to use newgrf?
17:52:02 <deniz1a> and you can prevent road vehicles with a train crossover. do people do that all the time?
17:53:29 <deniz1a> how do you prevent that?
17:54:00 <deniz1a> there is nothing you can do against that, right?
17:54:18 <deniz1a> the only course of action open in that case is retaliation
17:54:29 <deniz1a> so you block his vehicles with trains
17:55:31 <deniz1a> people wouldnt use any road vehicles in competitive games then or it's a blocking game
17:56:16 <deniz1a> you can't block trains, right?
17:56:21 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why you should play on a moderated server
17:56:32 <deniz1a> what's a moderated server?
17:56:57 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no technical solution to people being dicks. a moderator will chime in and throw these people out and undo their damage
17:57:14 <deniz1a> but why? it's part of the game
17:57:44 <Eddi|zuHause> sure, if you want to play the game alone...
17:57:48 <deniz1a> then there should be server settings to disable these things
17:58:37 <deniz1a> a player has a train track, minding his own business, trying to make honest money
17:58:58 <deniz1a> and you go and crossover his train track with a road
17:59:08 <deniz1a> hmm ok this doesnt work
17:59:34 <deniz1a> you cant make it appear like he's blocking you
18:00:43 <deniz1a> you can block ships too, although it would be expensive
18:00:57 <deniz1a> you could raise land around the dock so ships cant reach it
18:01:20 <deniz1a> you build shipyards around his dock, blocking his ships
18:02:08 <deniz1a> there are zeppelin crashes as disasters
18:02:26 <deniz1a> can you deliberately crash your plane in his airport to block it?
18:03:03 <Alberth> there are many ways to harass other players
18:03:10 <deniz1a> oh and there are ufos as disasters too. who thought about that heh
18:03:13 <Alberth> you need a human to decide whether it is allowed
18:03:35 <deniz1a> yeah but there arent any settings to disable them, so they're part of the game
18:04:11 <Alberth> there is no way to detect all things, that's why there is no setting
18:04:24 <Alberth> unless you count, you cannot build anything
18:04:24 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a server a few years ago that had the rule "be a dick to each other as much as you can"
18:04:55 <deniz1a> you can start ad campaigns to increase your ratings. can you also start negative ad campaigns to lower others' ratings?
18:05:10 <deniz1a> Eddi|zuHause: that server sounds fun
18:05:26 <Eddi|zuHause> but crashing their vehicles reduces the ratings to 0
18:05:40 <deniz1a> you mean with trains?
18:06:10 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. airplane crashes as well, but you probably cannot cause those
18:06:43 <deniz1a> it could be fun to make such things as game feature
18:07:18 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, it might be fun for you, but you'd quickly be alone
18:08:01 <deniz1a> i think there would be other people who would want to play like that
18:09:28 <deniz1a> well ok i just wanted to share these ideas i had
18:10:05 <deniz1a> an agressive AI that blocks you and buys exclusive rights in towns you have networks
18:10:25 <andythenorth> it’s a pretty quick end game
18:10:32 <andythenorth> you all have no money quite fast
18:10:40 <deniz1a> admiral AI is the best one right? it doesnt do such things
18:10:41 <andythenorth> if you play aggressively
18:10:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the rondje AI did something like that
18:11:41 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, exclusive rights is a bad way to do this, because the other person can immediately buy them back
18:11:51 <Eddi|zuHause> this goes back and forth until one person runs out of money
18:12:08 <deniz1a> oh you can do that? ok i didnt know that
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18:12:32 <deniz1a> but if you're financially better you could still do that
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18:16:31 <Eddi|zuHause> sure, if the game were about having the most money...
18:19:56 <frosch123> money is good, you can exchange it for coffee and chocolate
18:20:34 <frosch123> though not sure why the other guys actually take it
18:21:27 <frosch123> maybe there is noone who does both coffee and chocolate
18:21:33 <Eddi|zuHause> but in today's economy the way you make money is to spend money that you don't have yet
18:21:56 <deniz1a> you can get goods and services in exchange!
18:22:20 <Eddi|zuHause> it's called short-selling
18:22:21 <deniz1a> how do you see chat history in multiplayer game?
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18:51:59 <andythenorth> how about FAD for FIRS 2.0?
18:57:09 <Alberth> new release of firs would probably be welcomed, imho
19:00:43 <Eddi|zuHause> FIRS Isn't Renamed, Stupid
19:03:22 <andythenorth> FIRS 1.4.0 is a bit delayed
19:03:25 <andythenorth> it’s waited 13 months
19:03:34 <andythenorth> I want to make a few savegame breaking changes
19:03:39 <andythenorth> and let translators catch up maybe?
19:04:01 <Eddi|zuHause> no. release it, and then make the breaking changes
19:04:14 <andythenorth> that is a nice idea yes
19:04:33 <Eddi|zuHause> if you always wait for the next changes before release, you never release anything
19:05:02 <andythenorth> I dunno, I think there’s no especial rush
19:05:17 <andythenorth> I already broke savegames, rather not do it twice in succession
19:05:19 <V453000> THERE IS ALWAYS RUSH :P
19:05:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see the problem, just say that the release isn't compatible with previous releases
19:05:54 <andythenorth> are you all so keen to play it?
19:06:21 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the release isn’t compatible with previous releases, already
19:06:29 <V453000> I dont play at all anymore :0
19:06:37 <andythenorth> immediately releasing a 1.5.0 and breaking all savegames again seems a bit…hasty
19:06:55 <V453000> the old savegames can keep old firs
19:06:59 <V453000> new savegames will use new
19:07:04 <andythenorth> compared to, e.g. finishing the changes I am mid-way through, and then maybe actually playtesting it
19:07:12 <andythenorth> releasing a broken economy seems daft tbh
19:07:23 <V453000> for server games, they dont want to reload the save just cause of updating a newgrf anyway, they can wait the few days
19:07:28 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but if you constantly break savegame compatibility, a current stable release is better than an old stable release and a bunch of incompatible nightlies where nobody is sure which one to get and where to get it from
19:07:58 <andythenorth> it’s on an annual release cycle
19:07:59 <Supercheese> Iron works now takes sand, eh?
19:08:25 <andythenorth> FIRS is too painful to work on more than about 2 weeks of the year
19:08:33 <V453000> NUTS has version 79 after almost 3 years :P
19:09:19 <V453000> but it just means there were 78 precedessors
19:09:37 <andythenorth> I didn’t look at FIRS, but it’s less releases than that
19:09:39 <Alberth> live on the edge, make the next one 0.7.10 :p
19:09:50 <V453000> no, want to get to 1.0.0 :P
19:10:13 <Eddi|zuHause> you make 1.0.0 when it's ready, not when you had 100 releases
19:10:17 <V453000> originally I thought I never will, but now lets hope 9.9.9 is unreal :P
19:10:26 <V453000> exactly Eddi, I dont :)
19:10:51 <V453000> I like this numbering, period :P
19:10:54 <Eddi|zuHause> OpenTTD went from 0.7 to 1.0
19:11:09 <V453000> I could also give it names without numbers? :D
19:11:14 * andythenorth should add the strings so translators can catch up
19:11:52 <V453000> ALSO, perhaps it will reach full 32bpp conversion with 1.0.0 :P
19:12:34 <Alberth> with a bit of careful planning.... :)
19:12:57 <Eddi|zuHause> CETS Bertha, CETS Dora, ...
19:13:00 <V453000> no need to be careful, can postpone shit or release everything at the last moment XD
19:13:35 <Alberth> 0.9.9 0.9.9.9 0.9.9.9.9 1.0.0!
19:14:37 <V453000> no, just 0.9.9 Changelog: Added SECOND 32bpp engine!, 1.0.0 changelog: Added the remaining 150 32bpp engines!
19:16:48 <Supercheese> UKRS addon set does (did) that with versions
19:22:09 <Alberth> oh dear, I am so much behind, it's nuts!
19:22:39 <V453000> :) it is actually quite fun for me to read the changelog from the start XD
19:23:21 <Alberth> I can imagine, bringing back memories :)
19:23:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not actually sure i understood what eggnog is. it sounds like Eierlikör, just without alcohol, so they can spike it with alcohol.
19:23:42 <Alberth> I had the same experience reading all my freerct blog entries that I made
19:24:23 <V453000> 0.1.2 Completely re-ordered the code of the whole newGRF so it can compile now without running out of action2 IDs. Added Cola, Beer and Plastic tankers for toyland - now with colours! Added cargo-specific Railflatbed3 Sweets.
19:24:28 <V453000> this was seriously fucked up :D
19:24:50 <frosch123> does freerct meanwhile use yeti graphics for customers?
19:24:59 <Supercheese> I barely ever encounter eggnog with alcohol
19:25:23 <Supercheese> although that's probably highly region-dependent even within the states
19:25:26 <Eddi|zuHause> this is clearly a thing that does not exist at all in germany
19:25:44 <Supercheese> yeah, likely an American thing
19:26:18 <Alberth> it doesn't frosch123, I suspect they don't want to come, given there are only a few shops available
19:26:25 <frosch123> Supercheese: wiki lists luxembourg :o
19:27:11 <Supercheese> I'm not immediately seeing that
19:27:12 <frosch123> Alberth: maybe they are more keen on work :)
19:27:25 <Supercheese> I see Englang, then Canada & US
19:27:38 <frosch123> i was reading the german version
19:27:52 <frosch123> maybe only germans think that luxembourgians drink that :p
19:31:30 <Alberth> hmm, is "job satisfaction" really "Zufriedenheit am Arbeitsplatz" in German, Dutch uses "Arbeidsvreugde" and I would expect that German also has a single word for it
19:32:02 <Eddi|zuHause> you are not supposed to be happy at the job. :p
19:33:14 <Alberth> currently, I am quite not happy at my job :(
19:33:17 <frosch123> Alberth: "Arbeitsfreude" is casual/slightly oldish. "Zufriedenheit am Arbeitsplatz" is modern bureaucracy-german
19:33:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i've ever heard "Arbeitsfreude"
19:35:32 <Alberth> Arbeidsvreugde is also quite old-ish
19:35:43 <frosch123> actually, Arbeitsfreude is also less specific. you also have "Arbeitsfreude" if you do crafting/gardening on every weekend
19:36:01 <frosch123> while the other one refers specific to work only
19:37:36 <Alberth> Don't know of a word to express joy of work in your free time, in Dutch
19:37:38 <Eddi|zuHause> "arbeit" is derived from protogermanic "urbo" which means "slave". it's also the root of the russian word "robota"
19:38:01 <frosch123> there are actually two "Arbeitsfreude" and "Arbeitswut"
19:38:21 <Eddi|zuHause> "Arbeitswut" is more like "workaholic
19:38:33 <frosch123> yes, but it also works for work at home
19:38:59 <frosch123> like you start doing things, and only notice 10 hours later that you are still doing stuff
19:39:28 <Alberth> hmm, I played CIV like that the first time :p
19:39:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i played CIV like that the next 300 times as well :p
19:40:46 <Eddi|zuHause> but i would use "-wut" in a context where people do nonsensical stuff out of the inner pressure to do *anything*
19:41:14 <Eddi|zuHause> like throw out everything in the assumption that it is trash, without thinking about whether it may still be useful
19:43:27 <frosch123> it does not need to be non-sense, it's enough that the person does not notice doing stuff
19:44:16 <Eddi|zuHause> well, being non-sense is usually the point where other people notice it :)
19:47:53 <andythenorth> what sense does sunshare make? In the FIRS thread
19:47:59 <andythenorth> I have literally no idea
19:48:10 <andythenorth> there’s non-English-native, and then there’s simply non-English
19:48:36 <andythenorth> the only thing I can understand is ‘he/she wants something'
19:48:52 * andythenorth goes back to styling tables
19:49:14 <Alberth> sunshare doesn't make a lot of sense in many threads :)
19:49:28 <Supercheese> Yeah, I had the same experience in fake subways
19:49:40 <Supercheese> "explain everything please" "errr, ok..."
19:50:17 <Supercheese> Poor ReadMes, they never get read
19:50:54 <Alberth> he uses a translator probably
19:51:24 <andythenorth> off-topic, so glad I learnt at least rudiments of shell scripts
19:51:50 <Alberth> off-topic? after a discussion on job satisfaction?
19:51:55 <glx> oh you stopped recreating wheel every time ?
19:52:12 <andythenorth> I stopped typing long commands :P
19:52:14 <Supercheese> The topic is a lie, much like the cake
19:52:34 <andythenorth> most of my scripts are just ‘rm foo && mv src/foo foo’ or whatever
19:53:31 <Alberth> I call all of them "mk", so it's easy to find in a directory
19:55:14 <Eddi|zuHause> just call them Makefile?
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19:56:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know why, but every day around 19:00 to 22:00, youtoube is too slow for 720p
19:56:45 <andythenorth> you mean the busy part of the day? o_O
19:56:52 <frosch123> was the same for me from sun to tue, was fixed yesterday
19:57:18 <frosch123> though it was actually too slow for 360p :)
19:58:45 <frosch123> so maybe they switched servers
19:58:59 <frosch123> gave frankfurt a new one, and gave leipzig the old broken one
20:00:06 <Eddi|zuHause> well, network topology is weird anyway. german telekom ever worked so hard not to be connected to DE-CIX
20:00:49 <glx> or peering issue, or ISP doing silly things
20:01:38 <andythenorth> ISP traffic shaping
20:01:56 <andythenorth> 19:00 - 22:00 is when everybody goes home and watches
20:04:09 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's probably a play to convince people why net neutrality is a "bad" thing (in the eyes of the ISPs)
20:05:23 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: well, peering is the entire problem. because telekom has like 90% of the customers, they say: hold on, when you want to peer, you have to pay us.
20:06:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and additionally to that, you can't peer at a place where everybody else peers, like DE-CIX
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20:50:39 <Alberth> andythenorth: does "Food processing plant" accept food or produce it? there doesn't seem to be other strings
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20:53:13 <Eddi|zuHause> compound words are difficult. you never know whether they describe what it is, what goes into it, or who made it, or... :p
20:54:27 <andythenorth> it’s 100% identical in principle to the one in default tropic
20:54:30 <andythenorth> only input cargos vary
20:54:40 <andythenorth> a sensible newgrf author would use the existing TTD strings
20:55:18 <Alberth> "Food processing" suggests to me it accepts food, no idea whatwould come out of the factory in that case
20:55:41 <andythenorth> what’s it called in TTD? o_O
20:55:51 * andythenorth would look but is writing edit-in-place in html :P
20:56:33 <Alberth> STR_INDUSTRY_NAME_FOOD_PROCESSING_PLANT :Food Processing Plant <-- same
20:57:11 <Alberth> but I never had to translate that :)
20:57:20 <frosch123> hmm, "Food Processing Plant" vs. "Food Processing Animal"?
20:58:04 <Alberth> in V his definition those are quite exchangable
20:59:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i never quite understood the usage of that word, ever since i saw "power plant" in sim city for the first time
20:59:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it also didn't match our english lessons in school, where it was "power station" or somesuch
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21:09:21 <andythenorth> Alberth: I’ll swap it to use TTD string
21:09:26 <andythenorth> sorry if you already translated it :)
21:10:39 <Alberth> STR_INDUSTRY_NAME_FOOD_PROCESSING_PLANT :Voedselfabriek <-- it'll be the same translation :p
21:10:57 <andythenorth> I need to fix my makefile :(
21:11:01 <andythenorth> so it’s not stupid
21:11:52 <dreck> reminds me of "computers only as smart as we make them" quote
21:13:41 <frosch123> "i am not worried about computers becoming smarter than humans, i am rather worried that they agree to meet in the middle" <- saw that today
21:14:32 <dreck> heh not sure I have heard that one but makes sense
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21:52:08 <deniz1a> hello, when transporting cargo, do you get more money if you transport to a more distant industry?
21:54:16 <frosch123> you get money for vehicles running
21:54:26 <frosch123> you do not get money for vehicles loading
21:54:38 <deniz1a> so you get more money if you just loop the train around before delivering?
21:54:51 <frosch123> having longer distances lowers the time percentage for loading
21:55:08 <frosch123> no, the travel distance does not matter
21:55:22 <frosch123> it's the distance between source and destination station
21:55:28 <deniz1a> oh ok so when it comes back to load again it will already be ready to be transported
21:55:29 <frosch123> if you do a detour, it's your loss :)
21:56:00 <frosch123> basically you get money for transporting cargo fast
21:56:15 <frosch123> on longer distances you can reach a higher average speed
21:56:39 <frosch123> on direct routes you are also faster
21:56:41 <deniz1a> and i was always looking for industries that are close to each other so i can transport quickly...
21:57:04 <frosch123> for nearby industries the same holds
21:57:05 <naliao> is that the wrong thing to do?
21:57:10 <frosch123> you need to make the loading time shorter
21:57:19 <frosch123> so on shorter routes you need vehicles with less capacity
21:57:22 <naliao> farm > plant > town done right
21:57:38 <frosch123> for very low capacities trains become inviable, because the engine is too expensive
21:58:13 <deniz1a> ok so trains should be sent far away so there is time for the source to produce again
21:58:37 <frosch123> usually you give cargo transport a "full load" order at the source
21:59:07 <frosch123> then you need to adjust the vehicle capacity (i.e. train length) so that loading time is not a significant part of the total travel time
21:59:11 <deniz1a> yes i do that but because i send them to a close destination when they come back empty they wait to reload
22:00:32 <deniz1a> ok thanks i'll go back to the game
22:00:50 <Eddi|zuHause> you want to have the empty train arriving when another train is just ready to leave
22:01:04 <Eddi|zuHause> because during the time where no train is waiting, your rating drops, so you get less cargo
22:03:49 <dreck> heh I always never understood why other people build massive 6-platform long stations when just 1-2 medium length ones would do for the exact same industry output
22:03:55 <Eddi|zuHause> so if your train takes 40 days to make a trip (and 40 days back), and you want it to load in 20 days, then you need 5 trains on the line. if the industry produces 180 per month, then you need around 120 capacity per train
22:04:50 <smoke_fumus> dreck: sometimes it's about syncing. and transfer. but if that's dead-end station for a coal mine....yeeaaaaa, we have a problem
22:05:09 <dreck> houston we have a problem! << hehehe
22:05:12 <Eddi|zuHause> you can make the loading time shorter if you use more, shorter trains, but it may turn unprofitable, because only the engines create costs
22:05:29 <smoke_fumus> Eddi|zuHause: hence why you need to use trucks for coal
22:05:44 <dreck> or use the small locomotive :)
22:05:47 <smoke_fumus> or at least sync up 2-4 coal mines with one train and pull coal from all of them to single electricstation
22:05:59 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is all possible
22:06:07 <smoke_fumus> that usually nets at least few thousand per year
22:10:42 <Eddi|zuHause> smoke_fumus: coal mines often have an output of 300 or more per month, and then even short distances are really really profitable by train
22:11:43 <Eddi|zuHause> or you play FIRS with the 100% rating setting, then everything goes crazy
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22:30:41 <dreck> well since ngc is likely still on business I'm going for now
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22:46:41 <deniz1a> does production of primary industries increase with time?
22:47:57 <FLHerne> deniz1a: Yes, if well-served
22:48:44 <FLHerne> deniz1a: Will increase on average if service is Good, decrease if Poor
22:48:48 <deniz1a> you mean transported?
22:49:46 <FLHerne> Oops, I shouldn't be capitalising good and poor, it does relate to transported rather than station ratings
22:50:05 <Supercheese> Gamescripts still can't have cases
22:50:15 <Supercheese> I desperately need accusative case for the translation....
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