IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-01-21
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00:02:07 <Samu> I hope it's clear enough what I was trying to explain
00:03:16 <Samu> if a player destroys a river tile, it's simply turning it into a dried river tile, per that explanation
00:03:58 <supermop> hawaiian island which contains Honolulu, Waikiki, Pearl Harbour
00:04:22 <supermop> has the most interesting geography/topography in my opinion
00:04:57 <supermop> Although This map is using finnish town names, temperate climate, and swiss trains
00:05:46 <supermop> and i've put rivers in the valleys on the west side of the island which in real life is currently fairly dry for the past thousand years or so
00:06:14 <supermop> as all the wind and rain comes from the east and is trapped by high mountains
00:07:09 <supermop> i can't remember which firs economy this one has in it
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00:10:58 <Samu> since there's lakes that aren't connected to water tiles, a player could simply dry an entire lake by clearing the tiles all in one go
00:11:39 <supermop> i can also dry a real lake by filling it with dirt
00:11:54 <supermop> or digging drainage trenches away from it
00:11:56 <Samu> ew... I tried to explain things as best I could
00:12:33 <Samu> a player could build rains or road, whatever, on top of dried river tiles
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07:28:10 <andythenorth> don’t have nuts yet
07:28:18 <andythenorth> maybe in some economy
07:28:22 <andythenorth> thought of olives
07:32:27 <SpComb> employed professional squirrels
07:34:26 <V453000> my unirail is looking fabulous as fuck
07:35:19 <V453000> should include unicorns
07:38:35 <andythenorth> no pictures, didn’t happen
07:43:02 <SpComb> I wouldn't want to ride those curves
07:43:08 <SpComb> the unicorns would fall off the tracks
07:45:09 <V453000> PS just after I set up the infrastructure yesterday, I suddenly realized I could make tunnels properly SO easily
07:50:20 <V453000> I remain amazed at how much forum people shit on rawr though XD
07:55:07 <andythenorth> V453000: road crossings for monorail? o_O
07:55:24 <andythenorth> SpComb: unicorns can turn instantly
07:57:27 <V453000> road crossings for everything :) dont have roads yet though
07:57:33 <V453000> but roads will be quick stuff
08:00:47 <V453000> also, disallowing road crossings is just a stupid feature, if someone doesnt want to build them, nobody is forcing them
08:04:16 <Supercheese> OTTD isn't properly grabbing the genetive forms of FIRS cargoes & industries
08:04:18 <andythenorth> so I need another industry and cargo for Tropic Basic
08:04:18 <andythenorth> file:///Users/andy/Documents/OTTD_graphics/FIRS/firs_build/docs/html/economies.html
08:04:23 <andythenorth> oops that wn’t work
08:04:55 <andythenorth> thinking about Vehicle Factory and adding Vehicle Parts cargo
08:05:29 <Supercheese> with cars that run on alcohol
08:06:00 <Supercheese> I think those are popular in, like, Brazil
08:06:10 <andythenorth> sugar refinery produces petrol...
08:06:28 <andythenorth> been looking at Brazil and Argentina for realisms
08:06:44 <andythenorth> they have a lot of agriculture, and quite a lot of secondary industry
08:06:51 <andythenorth> vehicles, planes, electronics etc
08:07:51 * andythenorth has talked self into it
08:08:06 <supermop> is it right that "many rivers" in SE on tropic generates zero rivers?
08:08:53 <V453000> see in the chart what goes where and which links you need for good system
08:09:05 <V453000> you will end exactly where you are now :P
08:09:28 <Supercheese> now it works just fine... that was odd
08:09:40 <Supercheese> perhaps I am simply going mad
08:09:44 <andythenorth> V453000: charts are bollocks :)
08:09:48 <andythenorth> make the chart in your head
08:10:06 <V453000> no system = bad newgrf :P
08:10:18 <andythenorth> system is boring
08:10:29 <V453000> does not have to be :)
08:10:30 <andythenorth> honestly, I just don’t have that systematic thinking
08:11:13 <andythenorth> also systems have stupid rules
08:11:24 <andythenorth> like ‘there cannot be off-map industries like ports’. wrong
08:11:40 <andythenorth> and ‘you can never create a direct feedback of delivery:supplies for boost’. wrong
08:11:47 <V453000> not really that doesnt have to be a system criteria :)
08:12:11 <V453000> you just need to make every part of the set useful
08:13:01 <andythenorth> also, every design is a system of some sort
08:13:08 <andythenorth> so how do you know which systems are good or bad?
08:13:12 <andythenorth> just having a system isn’t enough
08:13:38 <V453000> you look and ask yourself e.g. is it possible to start with farms, and grow them nicely on their own?
08:14:00 <V453000> OR, you look into the systematic chart and see if any parts have too many/no connections going to them :P
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08:14:37 <andythenorth> so .e.g. should farms be able to grow on their own, or not? Which is the good answer?
08:14:49 <V453000> none, you need to see what other chains do :P
08:15:04 <V453000> if other chains are able to grow themselves, then farms should as well, OR they must have a MASSIVE advantage in some other regard
08:15:19 <Supercheese> well, they do grow crops, but does their crop growing growth rate grow or does it just grow at a constant growth rate...
08:15:19 <V453000> some downsides, some bright sides
08:15:36 <V453000> constant unless given supplies from other chains
08:15:44 <V453000> ignoring biorefinery from 2000+
08:16:00 <Supercheese> or just growing without growing growing
08:16:18 <andythenorth> I just broke the farm chain in Full FIRS, I’m playing a game, it’s much better
08:18:15 <andythenorth> some chains are still lame, pointless and boring
08:18:22 <andythenorth> but there’s no dominant chain any more
08:18:32 <V453000> should there be a dominant chain?
08:18:44 <V453000> still, pointless and boring doesnt sound great :P
08:19:04 <andythenorth> I hate the dominant chain thing. That bugs you too, no?
08:19:18 <andythenorth> oil or metal, depending on your map
08:19:37 <andythenorth> and then ENSP just gives you….EVEN MOAR OIL AND METAL
08:19:55 <andythenorth> so 4 track mainlines for iron ore everywhere, and farms aren’t worth bothering with
08:20:25 <andythenorth> 56 industries, and you only need 7 of them
08:20:26 <V453000> yes that is basically what everybody is doing
08:24:22 <andythenorth> V453000: so what is system in YETI?
08:24:35 <andythenorth> I don’t mean flow chart, I’ve seen that on wiki somewhere ;)
08:24:46 <andythenorth> what are the design principles?
08:25:05 <V453000> 1. there is one huge mechanism of supplying
08:25:12 <V453000> 2. every industry contributes to the mechanism somehow
08:25:26 <V453000> 3. the more industry kinds you connect, the more efficient your mechanism will be
08:25:43 <andythenorth> see, that makes sense
08:25:44 <V453000> 4. every chain is self-sufficient, just not efficiently
08:25:58 <V453000> 4. means you can start with anything you like
08:26:21 <andythenorth> so Iron Horse, Road Hog etc have principles
08:26:26 <andythenorth> 1. no boring choices
08:26:44 <andythenorth> 2. but some choices are good
08:27:02 <andythenorth> 3. inspired by realism, but gameplay first w.r.t stats, dates etc
08:27:13 <andythenorth> FIRS has no principles
08:27:30 <andythenorth> just a giant blob of cargos and industries
08:27:44 <V453000> well the idea of supplies is nice but it could be refined :P
08:29:12 <andythenorth> FIRS had some principles originally
08:29:30 <andythenorth> 1. provides reason to put off-road vehicles into HEQS, and supply ships into FISH
08:29:46 <andythenorth> 2. has many more chains than default ttd
08:29:53 <V453000> 1. not exactly, dudes often do it with trains :P
08:29:59 <andythenorth> 3. does not include annoying behaviours from other known industry sets
08:30:14 <V453000> 3. is great fun compared to other shit
08:30:15 <andythenorth> 3. caused a lot of behaviour to be designed as ‘is not like xyz’
08:31:21 <andythenorth> none of those principles are interesting or good
08:31:43 <V453000> many people with lesser knowledge still play firs? :P
08:34:03 <andythenorth> I still play FIRS :P
08:35:14 <andythenorth> nah, needs new principles
08:35:36 <andythenorth> otherwise just goes round in circles or such
08:36:38 <planetmaker> andythenorth, the principle of FIRS is excellent. If it needs another one, it might well be another set :)
08:36:52 <andythenorth> planetmaker: the principles 1-3 above?
08:37:25 <V453000> yeah why not make a new set and let FIRS live :D
08:37:46 <planetmaker> I mostly talk of how "playing with it feels"
08:37:56 <planetmaker> to me it seems quite well-balanced
08:39:42 <andythenorth> V453000: FIRS 2.0.0 is somewhere in the future, not right now, but opportunity to change things
08:40:15 <andythenorth> FIRS 1.x.x I’m not changing the supplies mechanics or production or anything, just tweaking economies
08:40:33 <V453000> it doesnt even need to be firs 2.0 :P
08:40:38 <V453000> something completely different
08:40:50 <V453000> not to carry any old feature wtf with you
08:40:51 <andythenorth> apparently brand awareness is important :P
08:41:02 <V453000> for one, I would say the production callback produce_256 is way superior :P
08:41:25 <V453000> you are the brand, people are very aware which newGRFs are from you :)
08:41:41 <andythenorth> instead of on delivery?
08:41:43 <V453000> a TON of control over how much you are producing
08:42:06 <V453000> see how YETI works, no production_multiplier shizzle
08:42:15 <V453000> delivered amount -> produced amount
08:42:31 <V453000> sure, primaries can be a bit different
08:42:43 <V453000> but the dynamic thing when they can change production is nice
08:43:00 * andythenorth wonders what FIRS is using
08:43:16 <V453000> the production multipliers probably
08:43:38 <V453000> if supplies delivered in month whatever, set multiplier of production to XY
08:43:44 <andythenorth> primaries are on 256
08:44:16 <andythenorth> my plan was to change that
08:44:27 <andythenorth> so that they used production multiplier correctly
08:44:30 <andythenorth> so GS could control them
08:44:57 <andythenorth> but I never did it, because I don’t understand current code
08:45:02 <andythenorth> and also, is it good?
08:45:19 <V453000> idk, to me 3 production stages just sounds not enough
08:45:38 <andythenorth> you mean the boost options?
08:45:42 <V453000> especially if I reach the third after 2 years of playing
08:45:42 <andythenorth> they suck currently
08:45:53 * andythenorth is not understanding :)
08:48:46 <andythenorth> V453000 you mean the FIRS boosts, or the standard prod. multiplier behaviour?
08:49:37 <V453000> you get normal-extra-gungho
08:50:15 <V453000> and the player should need to care over the industries for longer time in order to get to the highest stages imo
08:50:35 <andythenorth> I am thinking that might be a valid parameter
08:50:47 <andythenorth> if you play NCG or SV, especially in multiplayer competitive
08:50:52 <andythenorth> then you just want max boost fast
08:51:07 <V453000> short term players :)
08:51:15 <andythenorth> I have played almost-sandbox games, and quadruple is stupid
08:51:30 <andythenorth> when you just want to build vehicles and watch them, then quadruple is a PITA
08:51:31 <V453000> but yeah at least having it parametrized would be nice:P
08:51:44 <V453000> quadruple is quite low still, very manageable
08:51:47 <andythenorth> quadruple means cloning shitloads of vehicles
08:51:54 <andythenorth> but if your supply fails, then you have massive jams
08:51:58 <V453000> esp compared to what YETI does to you once you connect at least 2 chains :P
08:52:07 <andythenorth> I know in coop games, supply never fails :P
08:52:12 <andythenorth> and train jams are unheard of
08:52:16 <andythenorth> but still, it’s work
08:52:19 <V453000> if you do it right. :)
08:53:08 <andythenorth> I think whatever new FIRS is, it needs supplies thought about a lot
08:54:24 <V453000> cant do anything wrong with thinking about stuff :P
08:54:44 <andythenorth> fuck thinking about it
08:54:49 <andythenorth> needs new ideas coding and testing
08:55:06 <andythenorth> so you’d want something like…Current Production Level: Epic
08:55:33 <V453000> well the max could raise slightly, but would have to become harder to reach, much harder to reach
08:55:43 <V453000> but I would like to see e.g. 10 stages of production instead of 3
08:56:13 <andythenorth> and what, quite fragile, like current supplies (miss a few months and you’re back on normal), or more robust?
08:56:14 <Supercheese> Current Production Level: >9,000
08:56:53 <V453000> there it gets more various
08:57:09 <V453000> you could keep delivered in month Y -> give output, delivered amount was X -> give amount
08:57:22 <V453000> you could have some form of delivered supplies getting instantly processed
08:57:43 <V453000> but yeah then it becomes Yeti :)
08:59:50 <andythenorth> I don’t want in:out for primaries
09:00:09 <andythenorth> that’s better done elsewhere
09:00:39 <andythenorth> and acceptance refusal
09:00:44 <andythenorth> are both awesome no?
09:03:25 <V453000> there are some not so great things like missing shadows on the overlay sprites, but other than that.. :)
09:04:14 <V453000> needs moar specular on the track though
09:06:19 <andythenorth> fundations are nice
09:06:34 * andythenorth -> shower, work etc
09:06:43 <andythenorth> stockpiling in FIRS
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09:07:07 <andythenorth> then one station can cover multiple industries, super-useful feature, no more feeders
09:07:19 <V453000> that is totally not a good idea
09:07:33 <V453000> I mean, noobs will love it but that is really, really bad
09:07:42 <andythenorth> they won’t love it :P
09:07:52 <andythenorth> “why did my industry stop accepting"
09:08:06 <andythenorth> “because the game can’t deliver to multiple industries from one station"
09:08:18 <V453000> well sure but they can build LESS to get the same result
09:08:47 <andythenorth> it only works for the case where you have multiple industry accepting same cargo for one station
09:08:50 <andythenorth> which is not that common
09:08:56 <andythenorth> it fricking sucks for the common case
09:09:15 <andythenorth> lazy -> will have to deliver their cargo elsewhere
09:09:19 <V453000> station walk ftw sure
09:09:30 <andythenorth> nah, have to learn conditional orders
09:09:35 <andythenorth> which are impossible for actual humans to use
09:09:54 <andythenorth> what is the point of conditional orders?
09:10:11 <V453000> amazing things you can do
09:10:18 <V453000> also in refit networks
09:10:33 <V453000> also in any place where you want to do some check :>
09:11:17 <andythenorth> it just seems to be a very odd solution to ‘load some number < 100%'
09:11:23 <andythenorth> instead of providing ‘load 50%'
09:11:42 <andythenorth> send trains in a circle to other stations, checking the loaded amount each time
09:11:54 <V453000> when full, go drop :)
09:12:08 <V453000> go to every station in a city, go unload passengers when full :)
09:12:16 <andythenorth> seems to be under the ‘gameplay should not be fun, it’s supposed to be serious work’ school of thinking
09:12:21 <andythenorth> which pops up here sometimes
09:12:24 <V453000> skip a loop in refit orders when train is empty and ahs no point to continue
09:12:45 <V453000> just allows for more complicated things, that is all
09:13:18 <V453000> you are asking for a feature which would add something new, but altering conditional orders would probably disable them from being able to do what they do now, which is good
09:13:27 <V453000> you dont want to alter conditional orders, you want something new :)
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09:15:13 <andythenorth> I’m just perplexed why conditional orders were seen as best solution to partial loading
09:15:41 <V453000> is partial loading useful for anything?
09:15:47 <V453000> you want partial unloading mainly, I assume
09:15:56 <andythenorth> that would be awesome too
09:16:07 <andythenorth> also timetables are apparently the solution to partial loading
09:16:11 <andythenorth> but timetables don’t work
09:16:35 <andythenorth> partial loading is for cases like, this ship won’t make money with < 30% loaded
09:17:17 <V453000> that doesnt make sense
09:17:32 <V453000> why would you then make the ship load e.g. 60%
09:17:37 <V453000> while you could load 100%
09:18:08 <andythenorth> you set a partial load %
09:18:11 <andythenorth> to handle that case
09:18:12 <V453000> -> when would you want to load only e.g. 30%?
09:18:28 <andythenorth> because at < 30% you don’t make money? o_O
09:18:30 <V453000> you can just get a smaller capacity vehicle
09:18:38 <V453000> sure, but the ship is loading 100%
09:18:49 <andythenorth> disproportionate supply at one end of the route?
09:18:56 <andythenorth> large town > small town
09:19:14 <andythenorth> industry with varying production
09:19:18 <V453000> then nothing will help
09:19:27 <V453000> if you set any requirement to the smaller town it can always be bad
09:19:28 <andythenorth> well the current solutions are:
09:19:33 <V453000> just loading whatever is there currently is best
09:19:33 <andythenorth> - run the vehicle empty a lot of the time
09:19:45 <V453000> because there isnt anything extra? :P
09:19:51 <andythenorth> - weird conditional orders with stations that are literally just there so some code can run
09:19:57 <andythenorth> - timetables, which don’t work
09:20:37 <andythenorth> currently I choose timetables
09:20:39 <andythenorth> but they suck so much
09:21:05 <V453000> you dont need to solve the situation XD
09:21:10 <V453000> just full load a t the bigger town and done
09:21:24 <V453000> load anything at the smaller town, you pick up everything at both ends
09:21:37 <V453000> sure, the smaller town will have poor ratings because stuff arrives less
09:21:42 <V453000> can be fixed with a transfer station
09:21:54 <V453000> which is also nicer when the town grows real big
09:22:51 <andythenorth> you could be right
09:23:10 <andythenorth> could be one of those features that is wanted, and turns out to be useless
09:23:27 <andythenorth> does this also mean I can stop using timetables, which are broken?
09:23:55 <V453000> perhaps you are trying to fix a nonexistent issue
09:24:04 <V453000> you can easily make both towns satisfied
09:27:23 <andythenorth> problem isn’t town satisfaction :)
09:27:26 <andythenorth> it’s vehicle profit
09:27:31 <andythenorth> but maybe that’s a non issue
09:27:36 <andythenorth> over-optimising the wrong thing
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13:01:28 <lastmikoi> still, it lacks purple.
13:05:43 <NGC3982> Bah, the usual we-accept-goods-now-but-not-later issue.
13:13:28 <Flygon_> NGC2982: You need more smokestacks
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13:14:42 <shempi> Flygon: oh hey, you play openttd?
13:14:52 <shempi> ...not sure why I'm surprised at that, heh
13:21:52 <Flygon> Who are you in the other world? :P
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17:57:29 <frosch123> V453000: don't your tunnels glitch horribly with vehicles?
17:57:46 <frosch123> i beliefe the roof has to extent at least half into the tile
17:57:53 <frosch123> vehicles are hidden at that point
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19:01:28 <andythenorth> where is V453000 (whose opinion I want)
19:01:39 * andythenorth also avoiding doing tax return
19:26:35 <andythenorth> they should change the render settings
19:47:54 <Wolf01> to transfer or to not transfer the nintendo netowrk account on the new 3ds.. this is the real problem
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19:54:11 <andythenorth> Alberth: can’t give you my savegame, uses local dev grfs, but it’s interesting how a BB network develops
19:55:01 <Alberth> all over the map, I suppose?
19:57:35 <frosch123> does it consider the areas you already service? or does it result in a lot of disconnected single lines?
20:00:14 <andythenorth> cargo flow chart is probably best explanation for network style :)
20:00:55 <andythenorth> everything there is prompted originally by BB, then making supporting connections
20:00:56 <frosch123> looks like ships+rv+aircraft :p no trains
20:01:01 <andythenorth> nearly all trains
20:01:41 <andythenorth> so not nearly all trains :P
20:03:38 <Alberth> it doesn't look for extending your network in particular, it's just simple random cargo, random distance, find a nice destination
20:04:31 <Alberth> but you can build your own connections as well
20:04:41 <andythenorth> hmm, where is my SV game screenshot? :P
20:05:13 <andythenorth> last game I played was an awesome SV manufacturing supplies game, everything focussed on one corner of map
20:05:35 <andythenorth> so the cargo flow was a very large set of primary nodes, delivering to a smaller set of secondary
20:05:39 <Alberth> got a bit crowded in the corner :p
20:05:49 <andythenorth> then all secondary to one hub, with 5 tertiary nodes for goal delivery
20:06:24 <andythenorth> BB is the total opposite
20:06:46 <andythenorth> also I’ve messed with FIRS, breaking the neat flow of metal / oil -> supplies
20:06:51 <andythenorth> which is better imho
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21:17:27 <dreck> quick question: I'm rechecking wiki to see what I did not remember but anyway...if you rcon-change a game setting does it take effect immediately or only in next game?
21:19:06 <frosch123> depends whether you use the setting or settingnewgame command
21:19:59 <dreck> ah, will look that up. thanks
21:30:48 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
21:38:48 <dreck> frosch sorry to ask but I think maybe I'm misunderstanding something .. how does one actually use ]rcon <pwd> "content state"?
21:39:33 <frosch123> check the help page
21:39:44 <frosch123> i don't know the commands by heart :p
21:58:51 <dreck> guess I'll poke around more with the console later on tonight...thanks anyway :)
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22:24:53 <dreck> going off for a bit now anyway
22:25:38 <Eddi|zuHause> is that just my impression or was that a really unconstructive discussion?
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