IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-12-21
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02:34:28 <argoneus> good night train amigos
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09:44:58 <andythenorth> le wolf ne pas le chat
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09:57:33 <Eddi|zuHause> did you mean "n'est" or "n'ai"
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10:01:54 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yes
10:02:36 <Eddi|zuHause> the cat is definitely in front of my door, demanding food
10:02:40 <andythenorth> Iron Horse trains are now normalised to load in 240 ticks
10:02:46 <andythenorth> how long should ships take in Squid?
10:03:24 <andythenorth> vanilla ottd ships appear to load 8x faster than trains
10:03:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that passes as a sensible guideline
10:04:18 <Eddi|zuHause> as probably nobody ever thought of ship balance. ever.
10:04:54 <andythenorth> how many train vehicles are unloaded at once?
10:05:04 <andythenorth> I don’t know anything about the load / unload algorithm
10:05:32 <Wolf01> hmm, isn't today the first day, is it?
10:05:45 <andythenorth> so an 8x30t train will load in same time as a 240t ship?
10:06:15 <andythenorth> Wolf01: solstice?
10:06:56 <Eddi|zuHause> why would that qualify as "first" over any other day?
10:07:07 <Wolf01> this is the first day I've seen fog at this hour
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10:51:31 <Alberth> lots of people with strong opinions on what fish and firs should do :p
10:51:50 <andythenorth> where are they hiding?
10:52:27 <andythenorth> I hate this way of thinking, but are forums getting stupider?
10:52:48 <andythenorth> or do I now know too much?
10:54:40 <Alberth> I am sort of used to it, with people having opinions on what openttd should do
10:55:25 <Alberth> perhaps firs/fish is getting so common that you are getting the same kind of audience
10:55:46 <peter1138> Quick, upload a corrupted copy and run away...
10:56:03 <Alberth> and blame the devs :p
10:56:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i've seen waaaaaay worse forums
10:56:52 <andythenorth> I don’t normally go in the ‘problems’ forum
10:56:56 <andythenorth> but lately I did
10:57:00 <Alberth> at least they are investigating, and are showing an interest in how things work
10:57:29 <andythenorth> there are some that seem really insanely dumb
10:57:36 <andythenorth> but I think they’re about 11 years old
10:57:53 <Alberth> can also be language barrier, in some cases
10:57:55 <andythenorth> the town names one was the worst so far
10:58:01 <andythenorth> nah, these are mostly brits
10:58:16 <Eddi|zuHause> no. the currency one :(
10:58:38 <andythenorth> I can see the confusion there at least
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10:59:17 <Alberth> I think it's mostly a matter of not knowing what the structure is of the mechanisms underneath
10:59:39 <Alberth> we are very good at making up random explanations for things we see :)
11:00:22 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that happens to me, too :p
11:00:32 <andythenorth> so how fast should ships load then?
11:01:05 <Alberth> would be fine for me, as it's less than infinite :)
11:01:38 <andythenorth> so it’s not weird that 50t ship and 1000t ship both load in 240 ticks? o_O
11:02:14 <Alberth> I never compare different ships that way, but I guess one could
11:02:34 <Eddi|zuHause> making huge ships take longer may be a way to balance them
11:02:38 <Alberth> maybe you want express it in tonnes/tick or so?
11:03:04 <andythenorth> that is how the default loading_speed property works, kinda
11:04:23 <andythenorth> maybe I just set them all loading speed 10
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11:06:29 <andythenorth> actually I’m just close the ticket and ignore the issue :)
11:07:18 <andythenorth> seems they have loading speeds set already manually
11:08:12 <Alberth> probably, I haven't seen any problems with ship loading speeds, as far as I can remember
11:12:22 <Eddi|zuHause> my gameplay experience is over 3 years old now
11:13:08 * andythenorth ponders a stupid GS
11:14:49 <andythenorth> something like that
11:15:01 <andythenorth> after random number of years, it just says “You won"
11:15:13 <andythenorth> dunno, I think it would get me playing the game
11:15:18 <andythenorth> just to see how long it takes
11:15:25 <andythenorth> upper limit 150 years
11:15:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't play a game. i would immediately be annoyed about that CETS is not even remotely playable
11:15:38 * andythenorth can understand that
11:15:52 <andythenorth> will you finish CETS if you don’t play a game?
11:16:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't concentrate on CETS
11:16:44 <andythenorth> anyone playing Squid RC? I am thinking of 1.0.0-ing it
11:16:47 <andythenorth> no bugs reported
11:17:04 <andythenorth> I just fixed the ‘heavy fish’ bug
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11:22:27 <andythenorth> “that will learn me”
11:22:33 <andythenorth> two projects, one repo
11:22:38 <andythenorth> FISH and Squid both in same repo
11:22:45 <andythenorth> so I have tags for FISH already
11:23:26 <andythenorth> major version change
11:23:34 <Wolf01> I had the same problem with the components of our CMS, I had to split every component to its own repository
11:23:51 <andythenorth> Wolf01: that’s horrible :)
11:24:04 <andythenorth> we’re just merging all our repos back together where possible
11:24:45 <Wolf01> eh, but we are using composer to get the the required components
11:24:47 <Eddi|zuHause> didn't you already have a FISH 2?
11:25:04 <andythenorth> name needs changed on bananaramas
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11:25:16 <Alberth> and devzone, for that matter :)
11:25:25 <Eddi|zuHause> so then why not name it 2.0?
11:25:52 <Eddi|zuHause> changing names is a terrible idea anyway
11:26:33 <Eddi|zuHause> you established a brand, and then you just throw it away?
11:27:11 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what a vandal I am :O
11:27:12 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: not like that ever happens in the commercial world :)
11:27:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: and almost every time they regret it afterwards
11:27:49 <andythenorth> well not forever
11:27:59 <andythenorth> but this won’t be the worst mistake I’ll make
11:30:28 <andythenorth> anyone want to rename it on bananas? o_O
11:30:46 <andythenorth> does /me dare highlight truebr*in?
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11:34:45 <andythenorth> now just have to finish Road Hog :P
11:34:50 <andythenorth> then I can stop doing newgrfs
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11:37:36 <andythenorth> until it’s time to do FIRS 2 :(
11:40:09 <andythenorth> Feature: sucks less
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12:09:53 <NGC3982> Bah, i managed to set the wrong autoclean on all my servers
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12:13:00 <NGC3982> And everyone got canned.
12:13:57 <NGC3982> By the way, i use the reload_cfg in my configs to make the same settings and NewGRF's apply each automatic (by end year) restart. The bad thing is that the map seed is the same, and so is the map. How can i scramble the seed but not the rest?
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12:51:43 <Rubidium> NGC3982: maybe removing the seed setting from the config file helps
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14:21:21 * andythenorth trying to kill open issues
14:26:55 <frosch123> you can either remove the '&& echo "cc"' part or replace the '2>' with '&>'
14:27:03 <frosch123> but in any case it looks weird to me :p
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14:31:20 <andythenorth> I have zero knowledge, and no way to test
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15:18:06 <andythenorth> any way for a vehicle to know what date the cargo was generated?
15:18:10 <andythenorth> or is that a non-concept?
15:19:20 <frosch123> that's a non-concept :p
15:19:39 <frosch123> but it is not the real date, but modified by the cargo-aging-property
15:19:57 <andythenorth> if the answer is conclusive ‘no’ then I’ll ignore the problem
15:20:44 <frosch123> in any case, the cargo age does not say anything about traveltime in a specific vehicle
15:21:03 <frosch123> other than that, i have no idea what the problem is :p
15:21:19 <frosch123> just use the date-of-last-service
15:21:25 <frosch123> and tell players to send vehicles to depots :p
15:21:57 <andythenorth> got some date-sensitive cargo sprites
15:22:08 <andythenorth> they flip on current_date at the moment
15:22:19 <andythenorth> which is odd, but not the worst thing
15:22:32 <frosch123> just use the service-date
15:22:46 <frosch123> you can also repaint the vehicle then
15:22:48 <andythenorth> wouldn’t work for me
15:23:01 <andythenorth> and road vehicles don’t service without explicit orders
15:23:08 <andythenorth> and setting explicit orders is boring
15:23:29 <Alberth> turn on breakdowns :p
15:23:38 <andythenorth> breakdowns are tedious yak-shaving
15:23:45 <andythenorth> having to set service orders for everything
15:24:00 <andythenorth> it’s just clicks for nothing
15:24:53 <Alberth> if you turn on servicing, RVs should service themselves, right?
15:25:43 <Alberth> at least, when you have a depot near enough
15:25:56 <andythenorth> they happily drive past depots
15:26:05 <andythenorth> servicing has been borked for years
15:26:46 <peter1138> Dunno what game you play, but for me they do service.
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15:36:18 <Alberth> maybe you enabled the "disable servicing when breakdowns are off" ?
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15:38:18 <Alberth> yep, it fails to skip servicing :)
15:56:07 <andythenorth> I’ll play a game with breakdowns on and post a save when it happens
15:57:00 <Alberth> this is without breakdowns, but with servicing
15:59:42 <andythenorth> well me asserting it is worth nothing without evidence :P
15:59:57 <andythenorth> it’s the main reason I’ve turned breakdowns off though
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18:11:38 <Gantradies> errm.. this is a bit of an odd question, but is there any way to "
18:11:54 <Gantradies> "fix" a station after it ends up with the wrong cargo delivered to,
18:12:20 <Gantradies> e.g a large station that is the hub for a big oil shipping settup getting oilk in the station near teh refinery?
18:12:40 <Gantradies> i donty even know what caused it this itme, ther's no rigs or wells in range of the station catchment area
18:12:42 <frosch123> nope, still not implemented
18:13:07 <frosch123> hmm, otoh... i think it now stops when the rating drops to low
18:13:24 <frosch123> no idea when that was added, or whether i dreamt
18:14:09 <frosch123> - Feature: Cancel cargo delivery from industries/houses to stations after about 21 months of not having picked up any of the cargo (r26582) <- ah, indeed, 1.5 stuff
18:19:27 <Gantradies> iave got a station at a factory ( too large with too many different veciicle chains depending on it) to raze,
18:19:48 <Gantradies> thats slowly filling up with grain and livestock and i SWEAR to god the arent any farms in its catchment anymore T_T
18:20:06 <Gantradies> the problem with that,
18:20:41 <Gantradies> is it assumes you have set every single vechicle goign ot the station in question manually to unload only ect
18:20:55 <Gantradies> or have teh time ot manually change the orders of several hundred
18:21:12 <Alberth> euhm, you know about shared orders?
18:21:25 <Gantradies> woudlnt mind an butto to reset the statiosns accept status for a particular cargo back ot the origional one/ dump it out
18:21:40 <Gantradies> i.. ermm. only found trhe wiki page on them yesterday
18:21:47 <Alberth> well, it's fixed in the nighlies / next stable
18:22:03 <Gantradies> no, i didnt. i havent been looking up much aobut the gmae for the last year and a half
18:22:52 <Gantradies> * is "enjoying" the irony of his rating plummeting because the oil refinery is literally submerged in oil it cant use*
18:23:58 <Gantradies> my whining aobut my own stupidity asside, i dont suppose there's going to be an ability ot click-and-drag whiel buying land?
18:24:24 <Gantradies> having to lcick everfy single square has irritated me since the retail version
18:24:30 <Alberth> even if you can destroy the station and build a new one, you're going to have to fix the orders, or you get in the same problems again
18:24:43 <Alberth> why do you buy land at all?
18:26:04 <Alberth> and the reason for not adding it so far is that it's too easy to make MP completely impossible to play competitively
18:28:54 <LordAro> why not add it to single player only?
18:30:38 <Alberth> why do you buy large amounts of tiles as SP ?
18:41:00 <andythenorth> prevent towns expanding where you plan airports
18:44:31 * andythenorth can feel stupid.gs creeping closer
18:44:37 <andythenorth> it’s inevitably going to happen
18:44:48 <andythenorth> a whole new spec for andythenorth misunderstand
18:53:49 <FLHerne> Zeether: Good evening
18:55:02 <Zeether> so I dunno if it's me but it feels slow starting out in openttd because I do the usual coal route but it takes a while to profit
18:55:47 <Eddi|zuHause> you can make the start faster with higher max loan or lower purchase cost (make the running costs higher if you want difficulty)
18:57:52 <Zeether> I got lower costs on, don
18:57:59 <Zeether> don't really touch loans though
18:59:32 <andythenorth> depending on newgrfs, do pax between 2 cities with 1k+ populations
18:59:42 <andythenorth> about 30-60 tiles apart
18:59:48 <andythenorth> needs fast trains
18:59:56 <andythenorth> high initial cost, but prints money
19:00:42 <Zeether> I always start with coal, run the fast forward then when I have enough cash I just build up cities
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19:03:00 <Zeether> the japan newgrf has trains that go fast on curves which is nice
19:06:27 <mgpl> hey guys, i wanna go back to playing. is it worth waiting for 1.5 release? or should i go with 1.4. i mean will 1.5 be released this year or its still an unknown
19:07:18 <Alberth> the next week or so is EXTREMELY unlikely :)
19:07:56 <Alberth> not in the last place because there have not been any beta or RC releases
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19:14:22 <Zeether> has anyone tried a-train before? I got 8 but compared to openttd it's pretty odd and the learning curve's a bit steep
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19:18:15 <mgpl> i played a-train on an amiga500. it was great ;)
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19:22:56 <Zeether> there's a 3DS version coming here, which I was surprised at since I was sure it was gonna be japan only
19:24:34 <mgpl> so many long nights and homework not done because of a-train. ahh the memories..
19:26:57 <Zeether> a-train is probably why I love the Japanese newgrfs
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20:01:40 <andythenorth> too many zellepins
20:06:51 <andythenorth> how long should the vehicles be in / | and \ angles?
20:17:26 <Wolf01> the same length of the - angle, you fool
20:17:57 <Wolf01> since when a rotating vehicle change its length
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20:31:27 <NGC3982> Rubidium: Simply leaving it with no value?
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20:36:23 <Rubidium> Wolf01: the length of a vehicle depends of the frame of reference (even in the real world)
20:36:48 <Rubidium> Wolf01: having said that, how can you say both objects in that image are the same size?
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20:38:06 <Rubidium> e.g. the left one can be at 1 angstrom distance and the other at 1 parsec, then the right one is definitely bigger ;)
20:39:04 <Wolf01> ok, but if you measure the sides, they are the same, just rotated of 90°
20:39:05 <Rubidium> NGC3982: remove the whole line with seed, assuming you use -x that will not add it and "fill" it with the default "generate new seed"-value
20:40:48 <Rubidium> Wolf01: well, the height of the left one is about 70 pixels, the right one 50 pixels ;)
20:40:51 <NGC3982> I do not use -x today.
20:42:09 <Wolf01> not the height, the red square
20:42:57 <andythenorth> 20px in — view is 12px in / view
20:43:14 <andythenorth> so 24px in — view should be 14.4px
20:44:01 <Wolf01> draw it how do you want, just draw it pleasing to see :)
20:44:23 <Wolf01> it's still an illusion
20:45:07 <andythenorth> well if I draw it wrong
20:45:10 <andythenorth> it looks wrong :P
20:47:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: there are so many things wrong with your so-called "illusion"
20:48:28 <Eddi|zuHause> it's like you show an apple and a pear and then tell people "these are the same shape"
20:49:18 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r27087 trunk/src/disaster_vehicle.cpp (2014-12-21 20:49:15 UTC)
20:49:19 <DorpsGek> -Fix (r26864): the shadow bit of disaster vehicles got cleared after being set to show a shadow
20:52:43 <andythenorth> wookey wookey wookey
21:03:16 <LordAro> a non-translator commit? lies
21:06:15 <andythenorth> bloody articulated trucks
21:06:17 <andythenorth> and their offsets
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21:16:10 <andythenorth> also I had better draw some more truck cabs
21:16:26 <andythenorth> instead of copying-pasting all the not-so-good ones into every spritesheet
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21:57:05 <Zeether> are ro-ros better for cash making then terminii since the train has to cover a little more distance
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22:00:33 <planetmaker> Zeether, doesn't matter. overall speed of cargo from station to station is important ;)
22:03:31 <Rubidium> well... technically ro-ros could bring more income (since the time for turning around isn't needed), but it requires that the "full" ro-ro route is the same as the termini route, but then the "empty" ro-ro route is longer than the termini route so it takes longer and thus incurs more running costs
22:04:13 <Rubidium> so in the end termini routes, assuming you have enough capacity, can be better cash makers
22:04:54 <Zeether> I'm trying to remember how I made so much cash because I used to be on a server where I got really rich
22:05:34 <Zeether> right now I'm playing with Japan newgrfs and using terminii but my stations only have 2 tracks each
22:05:39 <Rubidium> but that requires an entry/exit of the terminus station that does not have significant collision points between entering and leaving trains
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22:07:10 <Zeether> kinda wish there was a good server for just building stuff and not competition, btpro is too tough for me
22:07:22 <Rubidium> #openttdcoop welcome server?
22:07:37 <Zeether> didn't know if that was any good, might try it
22:09:12 <Rubidium> the most efficient terminus station layout isn't even on the wiki page :(
22:09:56 <Zeether> I'm too afraid to use more than 2 track stations I guess because I always have 2 tracks going in different directions
22:11:30 <planetmaker> don't use stations as junctions.
22:11:45 <Rubidium> planetmaker: not the one I have in mind, and mine is probably more efficient ;)
22:11:53 <planetmaker> have each station track always go every possible direction and you'll be totally fine to use a 64-tracks station
22:12:17 <planetmaker> actually even a 128 or 256 tracks station works then fine :)
22:16:39 <planetmaker> Rubidium, actually I'd rather recommend to use path signals in front of the crossings. But that requires at least on train length waiting space between the vertical entry track and the cross in front of the station
22:16:59 <planetmaker> but then, that's optimizing on a high level ;)
22:17:37 <planetmaker> and the gain is minimal
22:17:58 <planetmaker> but noticable at high load (continuous train input)
22:18:36 <planetmaker> however that station in the image is over-sized, 8 tracks should always suffice, if it's a drop station
22:20:00 <Zeether> is that station I did in need of improvement
22:20:52 <Rubidium> but then, with more than 6 platforms you usually need more than one entry/exit line
22:21:06 <planetmaker> yup, that's what I meant with over-sized :)
22:21:40 <planetmaker> but for a pick-up with varying output, the size might just be appropriate to accomodate for some fluctuations in load time
23:05:03 <Zeether> joined openttdcoop, no room for me to build
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